BH Balanced Hackmons Suspects and Bans Thread

[drampa's grandpa]

It's mainstay is Encore, Perish Song, King's Shield, Recovery Move. If it catches you using anything that doesn't hurt too much or doesn't hurt at all, you will lose that mon unless its faster. That is 100% broken, since Tank/Wall mons have to be forced to attack/switch out or risk instantly dying to S-Tag M-Gar. It also normally runs Illusion to decieve the opponent into thinking they are safe. This even allows it to lock mons into using Set-up moves. There is also Sticky Web to take into account, which I have seen on AkalaKahunaMallow's team. Of course, as you said, Offense doesn't mind too much, but Defensively oriented teams get absolutely ripped apart by it, to an absolutely ridiculous extent.

Prepare for Sticky Web. Run Magic Bounce (which also screws over Megagar) and hazard removal. I personally never run a wall without a pivot move. If you see a regular Gengar on their team you know what's coming. You know it will probably be illusion. There are ways to play around it which have been mentioned, it's not the same as innards out.

 

[Quantum Tesseract]

Prepare for Sticky Web. Run Magic Bounce (which also screws over Megagar) and hazard removal. I personally never run a wall without a pivot move. If you see a regular Gengar on their team you know what's coming. You know it will probably be illusion. There are ways to play around it which have been mentioned, it's not the same as innards out.

Pivots moves, for the record, don't help or barely help. MGar can just encore lock you into a recovery move; only prankster pshot and magic bounce actually save you. Even if you run these, however, you arent safe, as you have 6 mons and that only covers four (+prankster pshot is ass). You can do something with shed shell or ghosts but that's insanely crippling and means you cant run PH or fur coat mons not named Giratina.

 

[AbuseroftheBroken]

I just wanna nitpick a couple of things before work.

As I pointed out, you can't necessarily switch as soon as the trapper switches in as you can't accurately predict an Anchor Shot since nearly anything can run it on at least one set. Once you know, yeah, it's a little different. But how do you know an opposing, say, Triage Ray is running Anchor Shot or not?

As for "just run U-Turn", I say "Just run Water Absorb".



The "don't ban because it checks broken stuff" arguement still not allowed to be valid. Otherwise I would have mentioned stuff like PH.

Also, for not mentioning Shadow Tag in general, I didn't because I've been a broken record on that for years. I don't like the loophole megastones as is and would quickban 'em if given a chance.

Comparing spending a single moveslot to a whole ability slot is a little extreme. This is not including the fact that Water Absorb is extremely situational while Whirlwind/U-Turn and friends are not. The Phasing/Switching moves are used on a vast majority of Walls/Bulkier mons, and function perfectly fine with or without the presence of Trapping moves, while Water Absorb is deadweight if the thing it counters isn't on the enemy team.

Also, I agree with that sentiment, but you first have to prove they are broken. The moves you stated are top-tier utility moves, but are, by no means, broken in my opinion.

And lol, the person I was recalling was you huh. XP



Also, I 100% agree with Shell Smash being broken as all hail. Simple can run it, Unburden can run it, and due to the removal of the EV limit, these mons can tank hits even at -1/-2. The best answers I could come up with is Prank Dbond on at least 1 bulky mon (like Gyarados-M) that can survive at least 1 hit and take the broken garbage down with it. But you can run Smash more than 2 times, so nothing is a true answer to it.

 

[E4 Flint]

Semako Quantum Tesseract The Ruins of Alpha AbuseroftheBroken this discussion is better served here

 

[aki0s]

I really don't think gengarite-gengar is a problem. Is it annoying? Yes. Is it uncounterable? No. Does it take a niche Pokemon or ability to counter? No, in most cases magic bounce works perfectly well versus it.

The trick is just paying attention to the battle and building better. Most of the time, I believe a wall should never not have a pivot move. Obviously, there are exceptions (thousand waves zygod for instance), but in general it's good to have a pivot move. Paying attention to health stats is also pretty important for helping gauge the illusion Pokemon. Stealth rocks can help with this etc.

Essentially the point I'm trying to make is that: if you pay attention and improve your team builds, gengarite-gengar is not a game-breaking problem. And because of that, I don't even think it's worth discussing.

Regarding SS: once again, the checks are there, it doesn't require anything out of the ordinary to check that most teams don't already carry. And I don't think SS should be banned or suspected at all because of this.

 

[motherlove]

I think you should just play around shadow tag.

You should also play around shell smash.

Don't forget to play around psychic surge too.

And play around moody.

 

[drampa's grandpa]

Comparing spending a single moveslot to a whole ability slot is a little extreme. This is not including the fact that Water Absorb is extremely situational while Whirlwind/U-Turn and friends are not. The Phasing/Switching moves are used on a vast majority of Walls/Bulkier mons, and function perfectly fine with or without the presence of Trapping moves, while Water Absorb is deadweight if the thing it counters isn't on the enemy team.

Also, I agree with that sentiment, but you first have to prove they are broken. The moves you stated are top-tier utility moves, but are, by no means, broken in my opinion.

And lol, the person I was recalling was you huh. XP



Also, I 100% agree with Shell Smash being broken as all hail. Simple can run it, Unburden can run it, and due to the removal of the EV limit, these mons can tank hits even at -1/-2. The best answers I could come up with is Prank Dbond on at least 1 bulky mon (like Gyarados-M) that can survive at least 1 hit and take the broken garbage down with it. But you can run Smash more than 2 times, so nothing is a true answer to it.

Given what QT said about pivoting not stopping Megagar and thinking about it and realizing he's right, I've decided to think more about Megagar in general. Can we get replays? Both of it working and of it not.

I personally don't know if Shell Smash is the broken aspect of set up nowadays: imo what has broken it is the addition of new moves and abilities that get around Unaware and prevent priority, especially Sunsteel Strike and Core Enforcer (from a stall perspective). Between Power Trip and the above moves it can be nigh impossible to stop set up sweepers without incredibly specific walls (Like Gyarados-Mega, which resists all of those types of moves except Core Enforcer) or Zygarde-Complete, which offense can abuse with lures and easy offensive synergy or just bringing strong ice type moves.

Now I'll admit I haven't played BH much since the ev change. So I'm not that up to date with the recent developments. But it seems to me that set up is broken, that Shell Smash is not what broke set up, but could possibly be the easiest fix to it. Other possibilities include Sunsteel Strike, and of course Dazzling for APS, but that's a different match-up (offense v offense generally) then I'm discussing here.

 

[motherlove]

Given what QT said about pivoting not stopping Megagar and thinking about it and realizing he's right, I've decided to think more about Megagar in general. Can we get replays? Both of it working and of it not.

Check out Volt's first open replay it's p decent.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/the-balanced-hackmons-open-round-1.3599954/page-2#post-7303770

I looked 2 sec and funybotty's most recent BH replay has gengar trapping 3 mons: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-557165512

Here's one where illusion is actually useful, allowing gengar to take out a Giratina before taking out a Chansey: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmonssuspecttest-540026975

Here's one that I quite like, where an EXPERTLY PLAYED gengar takes out 2 mons before setting up a gold setup opportunity for nihilego and opening up an inevitable sweep: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-533208846

 

[Rumors]

Comparing spending a single moveslot to a whole ability slot is a little extreme. This is not including the fact that Water Absorb is extremely situational while Whirlwind/U-Turn and friends are not. The Phasing/Switching moves are used on a vast majority of Walls/Bulkier mons, and function perfectly fine with or without the presence of Trapping moves, while Water Absorb is deadweight if the thing it counters isn't on the enemy team.

It may be, but difference here is there was max two Water Bubbles and one good Water Absorb could check/counter both. So sure, it wasn't pulling its full weight outside of that, but you only needed one. A player can, however, have up to 18 instances of trapping attacks on a team. Now... that's ridiculously overkill, but 4-6 instances of Anchor Shot on a team seems quite plausible. And in order to nullify it, each member on your team needs a pivot, shuffle, or Ghost-typing. Otherwise those lacking it risk getting trapped against something they can't handle. Offensive or defensive Pokemon, they're at risk if they can only manually switch. And while U-Turn is ubiquitous, I don't find the idea of being forced to run it or other trap-escape options on 4-6 Pokemon to be healthy. When people say they always make sure every wall they have carries U-Turn, it raises a red flag for me.

...also, a lot of what I said there can be applied to Shadow Tag Gengar too for that discussion.

Anyway, basically, its 1 ability slot that can be dead weight outside its check vs multiple move slots or running specific Pokemon across your entire team. I'd say 3-6 move slots is a way bigger cost than 1 ability slot.


Also, as said, if you want some proof, well, here's some stupidity Anchor Shot can cause from the BH Open: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-557006042 Turn 57-135 becomes a pointless slap fight because both Pokemon Anchor Shot each other. Ironically, Shadow Tag doesn't actually have this problem. (Arena Trap still does AFAIK, however.)


If you guys really want, I can look into building a team whose sole-purpose is to abuse the living hell out of Anchor Shot. You'll make me hate myself doing it though, I'm sure.



As for more on Core Enforcer, well, not a lot for me to say beyond what I already said. It's insanely splashable with no drawbacks and very low counterplay. Same for Spectral Thief, but I care least about that one. Most about trapping.

A banworthy move would be:

• An attack with either no counters, or unreasonably niche or unusable ones e.g. OHKO Moves
• A move (attack or status) that removes the emphasis on skill, planning and/or preparation and moves the outcome to forces not in control of the player e.g. Chatter

They would be effective without needing real synergy with the Pokemon itself, its ability, the rest of its moveset, item or any in-game condition

I shoulda included this in my first post, but this is why these caught my attention.

-Anchor Shot and etc. hits the second bullet point and the third in spades. It's "countered" by U-Turn and such, but stuff like fast Encores or Normalize Entrainment Gengar to counter the counter, kind of the same issues STag Gengar has, except on potentially anything. The counter isn't niche, but I'd consider it somewhat unreliable since it can be shut down quite easily. Also Ghost, but as common as Giratina, Gengar, and Shedinja are, that's really niche.


-Core Enforcer hits the first one, since its counters are Fairies and going second, and third points quite well. Second one is less so, mostly on removing emphasis on planning/preparation beyond Fairy spam or running junk like level 95 Pokemon.


-Spectral Thief hits basically the same points as Core Enforcer for similar reasons. Counter is Normal-types, which are pretty limited to Gigas, Arceus, Slaking, and MAudino for the most part. You can't really prepare for it short of only running Normal-type set-up.


I simply see some major red flags, especially with trapping moves, hence, again, why I'm bringing it up.

 

[MAMP]

I really don't think gengarite-gengar is a problem. Is it annoying? Yes. Is it uncounterable? No. Does it take a niche Pokemon or ability to counter? No, in most cases magic bounce works perfectly well versus it.

The trick is just paying attention to the battle and building better. Most of the time, I believe a wall should never not have a pivot move. Obviously, there are exceptions (thousand waves zygod for instance), but in general it's good to have a pivot move. Paying attention to health stats is also pretty important for helping gauge the illusion Pokemon. Stealth rocks can help with this etc.

Essentially the point I'm trying to make is that: if you pay attention and improve your team builds, gengarite-gengar is not a game-breaking problem. And because of that, I don't even think it's worth discussing.

Regarding SS: once again, the checks are there, it doesn't require anything out of the ordinary to check that most teams don't already carry. And I don't think SS should be banned or suspected at all because of this.

I get where you're coming from, but just listing mons that beat Gengar and saying stuff like 'just run pivoting moves on all ur fat dudes' kinda misses the point. Unless you're suggesting that people literally don't run a single mon that can be trapped by Gar then I really don't see how 'just build ur teams better' is a valid argument. It doesn't matter if you've got a bunch of counters and pivoting moves on every mon because Gengar has shadow tag and encore. The very presence of gar on the opposing team skews risk/reward analysis to an absurd degree -- it turns every turn into a 50/50 whenever you send out a mon that it can trap. Every single time you click shore up with your FC Zygarde, facade with your PH Gigas, or rapid spin with your regenvest Solgaleo you are risking losing a key member of your team. And like, you can say that you can just pivot out or w/e if you predict Gengar to come in, but you can't expect to be able to make that predict every time, and as soon as you mess up, a mon dies.

And 'playing better and paying more attention to the game' isn't really a reasonable argument either bc gar frequently creates lose-lose situations for the person playing against it. Here's an example from a game I had the other day: I had life orb triage Ray + Gengarite Gengar, opponent had unaware Audino as their only surviving answer to Ray. The Audino was like shore up/spectral/bpass/moonblast or something similar. Audino switches into Ray, Ray oblivion wings. It does enough to 3hko. So now my opponent is in a bind: I can switch to Gar entirely for free and it works out for me no matter what they do. If they shore up, then Audino dies and Ray wins. If they bpass or switch then they're in range of 2 oblivion wings so they can't switch into Ray anymore. This situation isn't uncommon either, mons having to choose between healing up and not getting trapped by Gar happens all the time. And it really doesn't strike me as a fair scenario -- my opponent had no counterplay to Gengar here, not because their team was bad or because they misplayed, but because trappers with encore are stupid as all fuck.

The brokenness of a mon with shadow tag can't be judged in terms of what counters it, bc that really doesn't get at what makes it so dangerous.

also ban shell smash (more on this later)

 

[aki0s]

I get where you're coming from, but just listing mons that beat Gengar and saying stuff like 'just run pivoting moves on all ur fat dudes' kinda misses the point. Unless you're suggesting that people literally don't run a single mon that can be trapped by Gar then I really don't see how 'just build ur teams better' is a valid argument. It doesn't matter if you've got a bunch of counters and pivoting moves on every mon because Gengar has shadow tag and encore. The very presence of gar on the opposing team skews risk/reward analysis to an absurd degree -- it turns every turn into a 50/50 whenever you send out a mon that it can trap. Every single time you click shore up with your FC Zygarde, facade with your PH Gigas, or rapid spin with your regenvest Solgaleo you are risking losing a key member of your team. And like, you can say that you can just pivot out or w/e if you predict Gengar to come in, but you can't expect to be able to make that predict every time, and as soon as you mess up, a mon dies.

And 'playing better and paying more attention to the game' isn't really a reasonable argument either bc gar frequently creates lose-lose situations for the person playing against it. Here's an example from a game I had the other day: I had life orb triage Ray + Gengarite Gengar, opponent had unaware Audino as their only surviving answer to Ray. The Audino was like shore up/spectral/bpass/moonblast or something similar. Audino switches into Ray, Ray oblivion wings. It does enough to 3hko. So now my opponent is in a bind: I can switch to Gar entirely for free and it works out for me no matter what they do. If they shore up, then Audino dies and Ray wins. If they bpass or switch then they're in range of 2 oblivion wings so they can't switch into Ray anymore. This situation isn't uncommon either, mons having to choose between healing up and not getting trapped by Gar happens all the time. And it really doesn't strike me as a fair scenario -- my opponent had no counterplay to Gengar here, not because their team was bad or because they misplayed, but because trappers with encore are stupid as all fuck.

The brokenness of a mon with shadow tag can't be judged in terms of what counters it, bc that really doesn't get at what makes it so dangerous.

also ban shell smash (more on this later)

Ok, so correct me if I'm wrong, but the essence of your argument is: There is no counterplay - because gar is fast & can just come in and encore you into a useless move etc. And yeah, I kind of agree. But, let's draw a correlation first. Shadow tag is not the only method of trapping in the metagame. Yes, it does trap nearly everything - but a correlation can be drawn with magnet pull. But you might say: "Magnet pull is not a problem because it only targets steels & they can just pivot out etc" - or you might not say it, but lets assume that's your stance. If the magnet pull pokemon is fast, has encore and can perhaps block the move you are using - the same scenario results as with solagaleo and rapid spin or Audino and healing in the example you used - albeit for a steel. In the same case, an ability is being used to trap and the trapping move is not taking up a moveslot. The same result occurs in each instance: a wall is removed. Removing a steel wall can be just as disastrous as removing any other wall for a team that needs to check something an opposing team has. For instance, if an opponent removes your Registeel and said opponent's team has Choice specs aerilate ray, or something similar: you're in for trouble.

Now, you can see there is some sort of correlation between the trapping abilities. Or well, I've hoped I've shown there is some sort of correlation. The main difference here though is that shadow tag traps everything except ghost types.

So what's my point, what am I trying to get at? Most people seem to have read my argument as: if you have a pivoting move - there is no problem. But that wasn't my argument, I don't even think I put forth an argument. I only put forth an opinion and never suggested that it solved the problem. I just said that it wasn't as much of a problem as people were making it out to be if you followed what I suggested. I admit, I wasn't very clear and I can see why people have misinterpreted what I was saying.

Essentially the point I'm trying to make is that: if you pay attention and improve your team builds, gengarite-gengar is not a game-breaking problem. And because of that, I don't even think it's worth discussing.

I wasn't suggesting "playing around it" was the only option either - just that cognisance goes a long way in helping to prevent trapping.

What I was trying to suggest is that if you have knowledge that shadow-tag is present on the opponents team - that you play more carefully. Shadow tag is not a unique trapping ability and arguably presents itself quite obviously in the team matchup when compared to an ability like magnet pull - which requires you to find it out during the game via scouting or face losing a wall. You already know the opponent has shadow tag on their team - this is something that is not the case for any other ability, as they do not broadcast themselves as obviously in team preview. What I did not suggest is that playing more carefully resolves the problem altogether or that having a pivoting move an building better obviates the problem - what I was trying to suggest is that it will alleviate the problem to an extent. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear, I typed it up on a whim rather late at night...

But yeah. I don't see why gengarite-gengar is receiving so much flak. Arguably you have an advantage over your opponent from the get go because you know 1 of their 6 mons is going to be running said ability. This advantage obviously doesn't translate, because as you mentioned playing around shadow tag is problematic - but it's much easier to play around something you know the opponent has than to play around something they might have, but you are unsure of. And like I mentioned before, there are great correlations with shadow tag and magnet pull in that they seem to accomplish the same thing. Magnet pull however doesn't broadcast itself (as I mentioned earlier), which arguably makes it more dangerous that shadow tag. This I suppose is where the argument can come in that illusion gengar makes it so that the broadcast is not obvious and limits counterplay.

So maybe what we should be looking at is not gengarite-gengar as a ban - but rather illusion? Getting rid of illusion would make gengarite-gengar less of a problem as it would broadcast itself straight away before mega-evolution - eliminating most of what makes it problematic. Note: most. It's still going to be a problem, but you would be able to play around it slightly easier.

I feel like I've gone off on a tangent and probably haven't mentioned all of what I wanted, but I'm too tired to continue typing. I get what you're saying as well btw, I'm really just trying to clarify what I was trying to say originally but perhaps didn't make clear at all.

 

[motherlove]

The difference between trapping moves and shadow tag is that with trapping move the opponent chooses who you trap, with shadow tag you do. It's easy enough to say "they can trap you in a losing matchup" but your not gonna leave your solgaleo on groudon just so that ic can anchor shot you, you're gonna go giratina and then it doesn't matter if he anchor shots you, because you're in a winning matchup.

Also I just want to say that illusion isn't really the issue, and using gengar a lot I usually try to mega evolve as soon as possible to get shadow tag. This win-win situation that mamp mentioned is the issue.


EDIT: Also regarding Core enforcer, it's worth arguing what makes it overpowered instead of just saying that there's no counter play to it, having no counterplay doesn't make a move broken by itself otherwise we would've banned defog already.

EDIT2:

• A move (attack or status) that removes the emphasis on skill, planning and/or preparation and moves the outcome to forces not in control of the player e.g. Chatter

I honestly don't see how any of trapping moves, core enforcer and spectral thief fit into that.

EDIT3: Shed shell is an item, just thought I'd mention that since I've been running shed shell on any passive steel type.

 

[AbuseroftheBroken]

It may be, but difference here is there was max two Water Bubbles and one good Water Absorb could check/counter both. So sure, it wasn't pulling its full weight outside of that, but you only needed one. A player can, however, have up to 18 instances of trapping attacks on a team. Now... that's ridiculously overkill, but 4-6 instances of Anchor Shot on a team seems quite plausible. And in order to nullify it, each member on your team needs a pivot, shuffle, or Ghost-typing. Otherwise those lacking it risk getting trapped against something they can't handle. Offensive or defensive Pokemon, they're at risk if they can only manually switch. And while U-Turn is ubiquitous, I don't find the idea of being forced to run it or other trap-escape options on 4-6 Pokemon to be healthy. When people say they always make sure every wall they have carries U-Turn, it raises a red flag for me.

...also, a lot of what I said there can be applied to Shadow Tag Gengar too for that discussion.

Anyway, basically, its 1 ability slot that can be dead weight outside its check vs multiple move slots or running specific Pokemon across your entire team. I'd say 3-6 move slots is a way bigger cost than 1 ability slot.


Also, as said, if you want some proof, well, here's some stupidity Anchor Shot can cause from the BH Open: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-557006042 Turn 57-135 becomes a pointless slap fight because both Pokemon Anchor Shot each other. Ironically, Shadow Tag doesn't actually have this problem. (Arena Trap still does AFAIK, however.)


If you guys really want, I can look into building a team whose sole-purpose is to abuse the living hell out of Anchor Shot. You'll make me hate myself doing it though, I'm sure.



As for more on Core Enforcer, well, not a lot for me to say beyond what I already said. It's insanely splashable with no drawbacks and very low counterplay. Same for Spectral Thief, but I care least about that one. Most about trapping.





I shoulda included this in my first post, but this is why these caught my attention.

-Anchor Shot and etc. hits the second bullet point and the third in spades. It's "countered" by U-Turn and such, but stuff like fast Encores or Normalize Entrainment Gengar to counter the counter, kind of the same issues STag Gengar has, except on potentially anything. The counter isn't niche, but I'd consider it somewhat unreliable since it can be shut down quite easily. Also Ghost, but as common as Giratina, Gengar, and Shedinja are, that's really niche.


-Core Enforcer hits the first one, since its counters are Fairies and going second, and third points quite well. Second one is less so, mostly on removing emphasis on planning/preparation beyond Fairy spam or running junk like level 95 Pokemon.


-Spectral Thief hits basically the same points as Core Enforcer for similar reasons. Counter is Normal-types, which are pretty limited to Gigas, Arceus, Slaking, and MAudino for the most part. You can't really prepare for it short of only running Normal-type set-up.


I simply see some major red flags, especially with trapping moves, hence, again, why I'm bringing it up.

Phasing/Pivot moves are EVERYWHERE, and there is not a cost of running it just to counter Trapping moves. They have various other applications, unlike Water Absorb, which only has 1 use, and is 100% useless outside of countering 1 specific attack type. Therefore, the cost of running Phasing/Pivot moves are minimal compared to wasting a WHOLE ability slot just to counter 1 single attack type. And, as motherhate has said, you would never switch in a mon into your opponent if it can't reliably 1v1 a mon, or can't take a move and then pivot out. Also, always carrying U-turn isn't a symptom of Trapping moves, but the Meta, like most OU teams running Landous-T in BW/ORAS, or most Ubers teams running P-Don in ORAS. Those moves, like the pokemon I used as examples, are just so good that they became ubiquitous, not because they are absolutely needed to counter Trapping moves. Same with running Giratina, one of the best walls in BH.

Also, look at it this way. Sleep moves, like Spore, Mold Breaker Lovely Kiss, No Guard Sing, all have very specific checks that are normally run, like Magic Bounce, Poison Heal, Safety Googles, etc. If you don't carry specific checks to these moves, they will steamroll you 100%. Are they broken?

The battle you shown was indeed a slapfight, but then again, it isn't endless, and there will be a winner (whoever has more pp). It just takes a long period of time, which isn't anything too significant, since normal battles can also last many turns if someone is using Stall. It is annoying, but so is Stall.

That would be a cool team to see, when you are done can I challenge you to a match? I want to see firsthand what you consider as broken. :)


Also, a random comment on Spectral Thief vs. Baton Pass. Normalize Entrainment M-gar also counters Spectral to an extent, although it is also able to bypass the Normal type (although using it to sweep with boosts is far more plausible than trying to counter a set-up mon with it ;P).

 

[Kadabrium]

Directly from gen6's official analysis:

Fighting-type Moves: Regigigas's innate bulk is virtually irrelevant when it faces Fighting-type moves from the likes of Mega Mewtwo X. However, the latter Pokemon can be defeated if Regigigas has already set up a Shift Gear, especially if Regigigas is carrying Sacred Fire or Thousand Arrows to scout for King's Shield.

Giratina: Giratina, especially with Fur Coat, walls most variants of Regigigas exceptionally well. Even Knock Off Regigigas does very little at +6 Attack because Giratina can run Griseous Orb.

Sturdy Shedinja: Shedinja is generally a reliable counter, but some scouting is required to ensure that the Regigigas is not running the fairly uncommon Sacred Fire or Leech Seed.

Aerilate or Pixilate Fake Out + Extreme Speed: Without Spiky Shield or King's Shield, Regigigas is helpless against this extremely common strategy. Even with Poison Heal recovery, Regigigas can be easily knocked out by the combination with a tiny bit of prior damage. For instance, Jolly Life Orb Mega Rayquaza with 252 Attack EVs can take away a minimum of 80% of Regigigas's HP with the pair of moves with one turn of Poison Heal recovery factored in.

Fighting-type moves: now largely replaced by ground or fire, and almost never used as coverage. Stabless ones can't do much anyway.
Giratina: still works
Shedinja: still works, although cannot damage it back unless running lolperishtrap
priority ate: no longer kills
Add core enforcer and thats the whole list.

 

[Deleted User 91486]

I have tested Shadow Tag Gengar today, and it felt really broken to me.
Being stuck with a regular Gengar until mega-evolving was no problem, because I could just use it as an illusion-disguised lead and mega-evolve behind a King's Shield safely, which also gave me the opportunity to kill a hazard setter not named Giratina.

Here is another replay, where I used a defensive-orientated bulky team, which shows how limiting the presence of Shadow Tag Gengar on the opposing team can be: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-558457288
As you can see, I lead 6-4 after killing two mons with PDon, but lost only due to the fact that Mega Gengar was present. I could not remove the stealth rocks to prevent losing my PDon, because the opponent may predict it, switch Gengar in and remove Registeel (and just lay out new rocks due to his rocker still being alive). I also couldn't use any recovery move because of Gengar being able to encore me into this recovery move- that means that Gengar acted as a permanent heal block for the whole team - as I said above. I also couldn't safely kill a mon with a move not named Core Enforcer or U-turn, because of, again, Gengar, as you can see - I killed Deoxys with an anchor shot (mispredicted switch to Audino to eat up a core enforcer), and lost Steelix in return.
Another thing is that Gengar's Presence gave my opponent a huge PP-wise advantage, as he could freely switch, but I had to use PP for every switch when Gengar was in, so that I had only a limited amount of switches, even tough I had "counterplay" in u-turn against Gengar. If I hadn't lost Steelix and Zygarde at the end of the game, they would've died on either the stealth rocks, or due to running out of Core Enforcer/U-Turn PP.

There's, in my opinion, only one conclusion: Shadow Tag Gengar has to go.

 

[Nike of Samothrace]

Hey guys. Sorry if this has been addressed already since the EV limit was removed (haven't read the forums in a WHILE), but have we thought about re-introducing Protean? Everything is so bulky now that the free stab isn't game-breaking, and it'd be another offensive option to run in the setup-dominated meta. We've gotten new defensive tanks and very few glass cannons exist anymore, and combined with the ability clause, I don't see protean being as centralizing as it once was.

 

[ElMustacho]

I have tested Shadow Tag Gengar today, and it felt really broken to me.
Being stuck with a regular Gengar until mega-evolving was no problem, because I could just use it as an illusion-disguised lead and mega-evolve behind a King's Shield safely, which also gave me the opportunity to kill a hazard setter not named Giratina.

Here is another replay, where I used a defensive-orientated bulky team, which shows how limiting the presence of Shadow Tag Gengar on the opposing team can be: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-558457288
As you can see, I lead 6-4 after killing two mons with PDon, but lost only due to the fact that Mega Gengar was present. I could not remove the stealth rocks to prevent losing my PDon, because the opponent may predict it, switch Gengar in and remove Registeel (and just lay out new rocks due to his rocker still being alive). I also couldn't use any recovery move because of Gengar being able to encore me into this recovery move- that means that Gengar acted as a permanent heal block for the whole team - as I said above. I also couldn't safely kill a mon with a move not named Core Enforcer or U-turn, because of, again, Gengar, as you can see - I killed Deoxys with an anchor shot (mispredicted switch to Audino to eat up a core enforcer), and lost Steelix in return.
Another thing is that Gengar's Presence gave my opponent a huge PP-wise advantage, as he could freely switch, but I had to use PP for every switch when Gengar was in, so that I had only a limited amount of switches, even tough I had "counterplay" in u-turn against Gengar. If I hadn't lost Steelix and Zygarde at the end of the game, they would've died on either the stealth rocks, or due to running out of Core Enforcer/U-Turn PP.

There's, in my opinion, only one conclusion: Shadow Tag Gengar has to go.

I'm gonna comment this too as I am the other player of that match. Please look at how easily Gengar takes U-turn. It can do that for ages.
The most salient turns are 58 and 63, where respectively Gengar took a 90 BP STAB from Kyogre and then survive that, and where I sac Deo-s (being a trap) so I can nail Steelix. After a bit of work, I realized that Gengar can little but nothing against HO. 1 vs 1 they setup avoiding Encore and then they sweep. And then I have the solution. Truant Deo-s. Weird but let me explain. Deo-s is faster than most stuff at +1, like the Primals, and it also punish set-up sweepers if they set up on it. Skill Swap gives them Truant, usually before they move; if they set up I Baton Pass to Gengar or Spectral Thief everything as they lose the turn. And I have a sash, so they can't OHKO me. Switching to Gengar on the free turn let Gengar protect itself on the move, Encore on the wasted turn, and Perish Song to kill the helpless Pokemon, while throwing a Wish to something, like Deo-s, so that he can do that again to something else. If they switch, the switchin ALSO need to be Gengar-proof. It's like I keep in check 2 mons at the same time. Nothing but Ghost Types can usually survive this.

Hey guys. Sorry if this has been addressed already since the EV limit was removed (haven't read the forums in a WHILE), but have we thought about re-introducing Protean? Everything is so bulky now that the free stab isn't game-breaking, and it'd be another offensive option to run in the setup-dominated meta. We've gotten new defensive tanks and very few glass cannons exist anymore, and combined with the ability clause, I don't see protean being as centralizing as it once was.

It's exactly the opposite. Having STAB actually makes you able to OHKO or 2HKO most stuff.
MMY examples:
(non STAB) 252+ SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y Moongeist Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina: 206-244 (40.8 - 48.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(STAB) 252+ SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y Moongeist Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina: 308-366 (61.1 - 72.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(non STAB) 252+ SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde-Complete: 436-516 (68.5 - 81.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(STAB) 252+ SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde-Complete: 652-772 (102.5 - 121.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(non STAB) 252+ SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Audino-Mega: 190-224 (46.3 - 54.6%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO
(STAB) 252+ SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Audino-Mega: 284-336 (69.2 - 81.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

It's also a joke to make that imposterproof, run it with a plate and then you need a wall that can take everything but the type that equals the plate and you are done.
Also there would be Protean MMX CB with V-create, like if Groudon didn't dealt enough damage.
252+ Atk Choice Band Mewtwo-Mega-X V-create vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Giratina: 225-264 (44.6 - 52.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

 

[motherlove]

Gengar can do plenty against HO depending on the set you run, I usually run encore / perish song and 2 offensive moves, you can make that ice beam / steam eruption and revenge kill generally problematic stuff like groudon, rayquaza or diancie.

 

[ElMustacho]

Gengar can do plenty against HO depending on the set you run, I usually run encore / perish song and 2 offensive moves, you can make that ice beam / steam eruption and revenge kill generally problematic stuff like groudon, rayquaza or diancie.

Yes but that works before set up.

 

[Rumors]

<snip for space>

Well, that first bit assumes A) You already know about Anchor Shot being present and B) You have something that is ensured to win the 1v1. Stuff like Stakeout Draco Meteor Primaldon exist to OHKO your Giratina switch-in, so you can't be 100% certain. There's also times where it can be advantageous to stay in on a bad match-up for a turn or two if your confident your opponent expects you to switch. So like, that Primaldon uses Shift Gear, expecting a free turn, and your Solgaleo bops it with Glare. Next turn, he V-Creates, but he hits your Fur Coat Zygarde instead, so now you've crippled their sweeper and also have momentum. Whereas, if you always switch to Giratina the moment Groudon shows up, your opponent, if he's any decent, will find a way to punish such timid play.


As for Edit 1, it's really the lack of counterplay that does make it, well, I'm leaning on unhealthy rather than overpowered. Again, if you're not a Fairy or slower, it suppresses your ability, no ifs, ands, or butts. Doesn't matter how you team build or play, you lose the ability. Defog, meanwhile, is a great example of something that appears to have no counterplay or drawbacks, but it has quite a few. Specifically...

-Defog does no damage and has negligible secondary effects, so using it gives up momentum
-Shut down by Taunt
-Blocked by Substitute
-Easy punished with moves like Encore
-Clears your hazards/screens/etc as well
-Pairs poorly with Choice items
-Unusable with Assault Vest
-Lower PP than hazard setting moves, so hazards win the PP stall war
-Minor, but the evasion drop can be bounced back
-Minor, but Defogged opponents get an Evasion boost if it with Topsy-Turvy. This can be problematic if they've set-up and Topsy is your set-up checking move

Core Enforcer, and the other moves I brought up, lack pretty much all of those drawback/counter options. (Thank Arceus Sub at least blocks Anchor Shot) There's very little you can do to stop their secondary effects from landing and it costs little for them to be ran.

As for Edit 2, it's mostly on "removing planning/preparation" bit. Depending on interpretation of the last bit, being trapped may apply there as well.

Edit 3, I mentioned Shed Shell in my first post. Knock Off is common though, so its a bit unreliable.

Phasing/Pivot moves are EVERYWHERE, and there is not a cost of running it just to counter Trapping moves. They have various other applications, unlike Water Absorb, which only has 1 use, and is 100% useless outside of countering 1 specific attack type. Therefore, the cost of running Phasing/Pivot moves are minimal compared to wasting a WHOLE ability slot just to counter 1 single attack type. And, as motherhate has said, you would never switch in a mon into your opponent if it can't reliably 1v1 a mon, or can't take a move and then pivot out. Also, always carrying U-turn isn't a symptom of Trapping moves, but the Meta, like most OU teams running Landous-T in BW/ORAS, or most Ubers teams running P-Don in ORAS. Those moves, like the pokemon I used as examples, are just so good that they became ubiquitous, not because they are absolutely needed to counter Trapping moves. Same with running Giratina, one of the best walls in BH.

<snip>

That would be a cool team to see, when you are done can I challenge you to a match? I want to see firsthand what you consider as broken. :)

Well, look at it this way. If you don't run pivot/shuffle/Ghost-type on a good chunk of your team, what's the cost then if your opponent is using trapping? Running pivots everywhere might be "inexpensive", but not using them has the potential to be hideously costly with permanent trapping being so accessible and potentially spammable. Which, is the point I probably wasn't clear enough about on, sorry about that. But yeah, the way I see it, it's not currently "it's a good idea to run these low cost moves often", but rather "you'd better run these low cost moves on at least good chunk of your team or you could easily lose at team preview to certain teams."


As for that team, if I do it, it might take me a while. Building for realsies teams is usually a kinda slow process for me. But it might turn out something like this. Or a number of meta-abuse teams I built for suspects and such, but I didn't RMT those and don't want to go farther off-topic posting them here.

 

[MAMP]

Rumors you've said a lot about how there's supposedly too little counterplay or opportunity cost for Core Enforcer, but you haven't actually explained why you think the move is broken. What is it about an attack that removes the opponents ability that makes it inherently broken? That has to be established before you can start arguing that there isn't enough counterplay.

 

[Rumors]

MAMP Sorry, I'm probably getting bogged down in details and not explaining stuff clearly. Lemme try.

Core Enforcer is a 100 BP, 100 Accuracy, 16 PP move with no drawbacks, one resist, and only one immunity. It directly outclasses most dragon-type special moves, only competing with Spacial Rend on crit-sets and Draco Meteor on Contrary and a few sets that really want the extra 30 BP. It's strong enough to sweep with on its own and it also has a Gastro Acid built-in that unavoidably nails all faster non-Fairy Pokemon. Because of how potent the secondary effect is, it's effectively usable on nearly every viable Pokemon in the tier on nearly any set, if not literally all of them. There are no other moves, aside those introduced in Gen VII that I've also wanted to talk about, that are so widely spammable.

In BH, a Pokemon and its set are practically defined by its ability. Core Enforcer allows for extremely easy removal of said abilities, outright shutting down and crippling some sets and hampering every other. The only sets that don't suffer are either flat-out immune, slower, or have one-off abilities like Intimidate. Since it can be spammed so hard, is an attack move, and its secondary effect bypasses Substitute for some reason, the victim can do very little but take the attack and then look to switch out. You can't Sub up against it, can't taunt it, can't dodge it, and, more importantly, you can't predict it until its already been revealed since, due to its incredibly splashable nature, any and potentially all of the opponent's Pokemon may be using it. If you lack Fairies, lack Normalize Entrainment, lack other dumb gimmicks like Core Enforcer Imprison, and your opponent's team is all slower, you literally have zero options available in-battle to deal with the ability suppression short of switching into a different move. I feel the effectiveness of the move is heavily determined at team preview rather than in actual play, which removes a lot of in-battle agency for the receiving team.

I also feel its a contributing factor to pivoting becoming practically mandatory. There's nothing wrong with pivoting itself, but I feel it's been steadily becoming less of a good strategy and more of a mandatory strategy lately due to other factors.

If Core Enforcer had more counter-play or drawbacks, like only 8 PP, lower base power, lower accuracy, blocked by Sub, didn't work against manual switch-ins, recoil... something, I'd be less concerned about it. If it had two more things, I'd probably have no problem with it, depending on what they were. That secondary effect, as it is, is incredibly potent. Add the fact it'd still potentially be the best special Dragon move in the game without its secondary and the move just feels way too overbearing to be healthy for the meta.


Is that good or did I miss something?


...also, I'll say, if I only got to pick between Anchor Shot and friends or Core Enforcer for discussion/possibly suspecting, I'd pick Anchor Shot and friends every single time.

 

[sin(pi)]

MAMP Sorry, I'm probably getting bogged down in details and not explaining stuff clearly. Lemme try.

Core Enforcer is a 100 BP, 100 Accuracy, 16 PP move with no drawbacks, one resist, and only one immunity. It directly outclasses most dragon-type special moves, only competing with Spacial Rend on crit-sets and Draco Meteor on Contrary and a few sets that really want the extra 30 BP. It's strong enough to sweep with on its own and it also has a Gastro Acid built-in that unavoidably nails all faster non-Fairy Pokemon. Because of how potent the secondary effect is, it's effectively usable on nearly every viable Pokemon in the tier on nearly any set, if not literally all of them. There are no other moves, aside those introduced in Gen VII that I've also wanted to talk about, that are so widely spammable.

In BH, a Pokemon and its set are practically defined by its ability. Core Enforcer allows for extremely easy removal of said abilities, outright shutting down and crippling some sets and hampering every other. The only sets that don't suffer are either flat-out immune, slower, or have one-off abilities like Intimidate. Since it can be spammed so hard, is an attack move, and its secondary effect bypasses Substitute for some reason, the victim can do very little but take the attack and then look to switch out. You can't Sub up against it, can't taunt it, can't dodge it, and, more importantly, you can't predict it until its already been revealed since, due to its incredibly splashable nature, any and potentially all of the opponent's Pokemon may be using it. If you lack Fairies, lack Normalize Entrainment, lack other dumb gimmicks like Core Enforcer Imprison, and your opponent's team is all slower, you literally have zero options available in-battle to deal with the ability suppression short of switching into a different move. I feel the effectiveness of the move is heavily determined at team preview rather than in actual play, which removes a lot of in-battle agency for the receiving team.

I also feel its a contributing factor to pivoting becoming practically mandatory. There's nothing wrong with pivoting itself, but I feel it's been steadily becoming less of a good strategy and more of a mandatory strategy lately due to other factors.

If Core Enforcer had more counter-play or drawbacks, like only 8 PP, lower base power, lower accuracy, blocked by Sub, didn't work against manual switch-ins, recoil... something, I'd be less concerned about it. If it had two more things, I'd probably have no problem with it, depending on what they were. That secondary effect, as it is, is incredibly potent. Add the fact it'd still potentially be the best special Dragon move in the game without its secondary and the move just feels way too overbearing to be healthy for the meta.


Is that good or did I miss something?


...also, I'll say, if I only got to pick between Anchor Shot and friends or Core Enforcer for discussion/possibly suspecting, I'd pick Anchor Shot and friends every single time.

You've described why it's the best Dragon-type move, and I don't think anyone disagrees with that. But this still doesn't say why it's broken. You've said "it's broken because it removes abilities", but what is it about removing abilities that is so debilitating?

I feel like most of the points you've listed could be applied or adapted to fit Boomburst, Judgment, Scald/Steam Eruption, Knock Off, [pivoting moves], Moongeist/Sunsteel, Spectral Thief, etc. (I'm ignoring trapping moves here on purpose because that's a whole different can of beans).

I could argue that Core Enforcer provides valuable counterplay against PH, Contrary, and other abilities which could otherwise be difficult to prepare for. On the flip side, perhaps it's impossible to wallbreak without abilities, leading to stall becoming unbreakable.

tl;dr you still need to say why it's broken, not what it does

 

[GmU pokeboss9]

Why does the BH banlist almost exclusivly consist of abilities ?


Core Enforcer beats Poison Heal and Poison Heal wont get suspected ever.
Plus both Giratina and M-Audino are best user and check, encouraging more stall.

People just dont like to suspect test Moves.

V-Create, Power Trip, Shell Smash, Stealth Rock and Metal Burst are my Top 5.
(Objective not Personal).

 

[Rumors]

tl;dr you still need to say why it's broken, not what it does

In BH, a Pokemon and its set are practically defined by its ability. Core Enforcer allows for extremely easy removal of said abilities, outright shutting down and crippling some sets and hampering every other. The only sets that don't suffer are either flat-out immune, slower, or have one-off abilities like Intimidate. Since it can be spammed so hard, is an attack move, and its secondary effect bypasses Substitute for some reason, the victim can do very little but take the attack and then look to switch out. You can't Sub up against it, can't taunt it, can't dodge it, and, more importantly, you can't predict it until its already been revealed since, due to its incredibly splashable nature, any and potentially all of the opponent's Pokemon may be using it. If you lack Fairies, lack Normalize Entrainment, lack other dumb gimmicks like Core Enforcer Imprison, and your opponent's team is all slower, you literally have zero options available in-battle to deal with the ability suppression short of switching into a different move. I feel the effectiveness of the move is heavily determined at team preview rather than in actual play, which removes a lot of in-battle agency for the receiving team.

No offense but, this paragraph isn't me explaining why I feel its potentially unhealthy? If it's not, then I'm not sure what I need to say. If I tl;dr read that myself, it's basically...

-Spammable as hell, more than any other move except Anchor Shot, Spectral Thief, and probably U-Turn
-Unpredictable until revealed because of spammability
-The player on the receiving end of the attack can't do anything but take the ability loss if they're faster and not a fairy, no matter what they choose to do
-The effectiveness of the move is heavily decided at team preview, rather than during play
-Best special Dragon attack on top of that

I won't deny it has benefits for existing, but so does pretty much our entire ban list. Except CFZs, screw those.

The other moves you listed do have more drawbacks though. Not gonna go in as detail on them as I did defog above since I don't want to trend off-topic, unless you want me to., but... Boomburst has no secondary effect rendering it useless for most walls/physical attackers, Judgement is horrifically vulnerable to lost items, Scald/Steam only have 30% chance to activate and effect is blocked by Sub/other status, Knock Off's power is pretty pathetic if it can't remove an item/is blocked by sub/items usually aren't as important to lose (except for stuff like Judgement), all pivoting moves trigger Stakeout or require taking a hit to get something in safely and each has specific weaknesses, Sungeist has a strong secondary effect but not one useful to most non-attackers (I don't like these either, but I don't have enough arguement against them), Spectral Thief... I already included this one in my first post on my topic, though I don't feel its as bad as Core Enforcer and Anchor Friends since its effect is useless against non-boosters. Still potent and spammable as all hell against boosters though.