Resource SM OU Viability Ranking Thread

[Sun King]

Tbh Bee kinda sucks now that Phero is gone. Part of what made it work before is that you could make a double Bug core that was too fast to hit, had insanely strong U-Turns, and could constantly keep up momentum on Volt-Turn teams. Phero's speed helped Beedrill so much because with the two of them, you had complete speed control over the match. Phero's access to Ice Beam took things like TankChomp and Lando-T out, and Rapid Spin also made Beedrill a lot better because it could come in and threaten the Fairy-types (not named Mawile or Magearna) without being worn down. Also Fight-STAB ruined the Steels that walled Bee. Basically Phero was the perfect partner for it.

We should consider a drop.


Starmie I want to see replays b/c in theory it sounds decent.

EDIT: Night Train Lane , I don't think we should nominate Zygarde for S yet; the meta is too fresh from a huge ban to determine such a big move up.

 

[MaahirMomtaz12]

Guys please stop talking about Beedrill. The OU community will definitely blacklist it so the thread won't be spammed with Beedrill posts. For it to be really good it has to drop to UU where it doesn't have to worry about Landorus or Mega Metagross. it definitely will be an A+/S rank threat there

 

[Orga777]

Imo HP Fire is pretty important because you lose pretty hard to Ferrothorn (and Mega Scizor) otherwise. Then, you either use Psychic (otherwise Toxapex / Keldeo walls you), Ice Beam (Dragons and Grass), or Thunderbolt (for bulky Waters. You still can't 2HKO Celesteela)

Well, Ferro aside, if you are running Scald, Scizor can't really switch in effectively since the burn chance makes it pretty useless.

 

[Toshiro46]

I'm not particularly fond of MegaBee as is and I don't think it's particularly good, but then again I don't think any of the mons (bar Kartana, maybe) in B- are particularly good. 2HKOing much of the meta is pretty impressive, especially at its speed tier. And it's not walled by near so many mons as people claim it to be. Even so, there's more valuable things to talk about so I'll move on. I don't care enough either way.

I disagree with Zygarde to S. 100 base attack is pretty mediocre even with a band, and while he does 2HKO Tang with Outrage, it's an extremely risky move to pick especially if you're predicting a switch.

More importantly, i don't think it's on the same level of meta influence and power that Lando, Megagross, and Gren are. Land and Megagross especially, because they pretty much spin the meta around them. Gren is just Gren.

 

[Gary]

Mega Beedrill has been added to blacklist. No more discussion on it for as long as it's on that list.

Carry on.

 

[dk]

i'm gonna break my habit of avoiding this thread and nom some stuff

A → A+
Tangrowth has emerged as the undoubted face of bulky offense over the past months, and with Pheromosa gone, Amoonguss' edge of being able to soft-check QD 'Mosa is now functionally meaningless—further cementing Tangrowth as the premier bulky Grass-type. The sheer amount of utility it can provide between its Assault Vest, Rocky Helmet, and Mixed Defensive sets is pretty insane—I often find myself wondering why I shouldn't be using Tangrowth because of how many roles it can compress into one slot. It can protect bulky offense from otherwise insanely threatening 'mons like Zygarde, Tapu Koko, Metagross (if running Mixed Def/Helm), Ash Gren prior to transformation, and so on, which is just so invaluable to these builds it's hard to do it justice. This isn't solely a nom based off of the merits of Assault Vest, but rather one that accounts for the crazy benefits of the Mixed Defensive set (248 HP / 72+ Def / 188 SpD @ Leftovers with Giga Drain / HP Ice / Knock or Leech or EQ / Sleep Powder) as well. You pretty much have to run something like Scarf Keldeo of Fini alongside Mixed Defensive Tangrowth to compensate for the lack of Ash Gren coverage, but aside from that, it's a great pivot with fantastic role compression (tackling most Koko + Metagross most of the time + better handling Zygarde and Landorus-T than Assault Vest).

A- → B+
With Pheromosa gone, Clefable's niche has decreased in significance outside of stall greatly. Before, it could run max defense plus Bold and effectively check Zygarde and Pheromosa, two major hassles for offense to switch into, all while setting rocks consistently (namely versus Sableye builds). With Latios being far less significant and Lopunny not existing, Clefable's utility is simply less valuable. It still can check Zygarde the vast majority of the time if healthy, but there are pivots with far more usefulness outside of this, like defensive HP Ice Landorus-T and Tangrowth, that render this niche relatively meaningless. While it is of obvious use to stall builds, this alone should not establish it as an A- 'mon seeing as how it is not even completely mandatory on stall.

A- → B+
Again, because of Pheromosa's ban, there is little reason to consider using this 'mon. Before, it could use its fantastic natural bulk to chip +1 Pheromosa into range of priority with Sludge Bomb, effectively providing a very soft means of checking it. Its lack of Regenerator and reliance on a horrible recovery move in Synthesis renders it susceptible to PP stalling as well as often causes it to drain momentum by sitting in place and recovering by using up a turn; momentum draining essentially means it isn't particularly great on the best playstyle (bulky offense). The main issue here is just its susceptibility to wear and reliance on Synthesis plus generally lower threat coverage utility compared to Tangrowth, as well as the fact that it consumes a Mega slot (meaning you're not using Medicham/Metagross/Mawile/Scizor).

 

[Vert]

no I completely disagree

clefable is one of the hardest pokemon to wear down in a metagame plagued by hazard stacking teams. you claim that its niche of checking zygarde is redundant with pokemon such as landorus-t and tangrowth around when zygarde are commonly running toxic, one of the reasons why zygarde balances are so effective at the moment. meanwhile, if you have a clefable, coil zygarde will never sweep. clefable has also started to pick up in usage because it is one of the better stealth rock users in the tier due to its great typing and threat of coverage moves such as flamethrower and knock off, both of which have insane utility. fyi you claim that pheromosa leaving means clefable got worse but (a) that was just a factor to clefable's effectiveness, not its whole niche & (b) it no longer has to run shitty spreads with some special defense to check specs and z-fight pheromosa. i've only been talking about the magic guard set this whole time. it's importance to the stall and semi-stall archetypes with its unaware set cannot be denied.

did i even say that it checks non-zen headbutt medicham? yea.. there's a reason why some of the better sm teams are using clefable. it brings a ton of utility to the table.

 

[dk]

no I completely disagree

clefable is one of the hardest pokemon to wear down in a metagame plagued by hazard stacking teams. you claim that its niche of checking zygarde is redundant with pokemon such as landorus-t and tangrowth around when zygarde are commonly running toxic, one of the reasons why zygarde balances are so effective at the moment. meanwhile, if you have a clefable, coil zygarde will never sweep. clefable has also started to pick up in usage because it is one of the better stealth rock users in the tier due to its great typing and threat of coverage moves such as flamethrower and knock off, both of which have insane utility. fyi you claim that pheromosa leaving means clefable got worse but (a) that was just a factor to clefable's effectiveness, not its whole niche & (b) it no longer has to run shitty spreads with some special defense to check specs and z-fight pheromosa. i've only been talking about the magic guard set this whole time. it's importance to the stall and semi-stall archetypes with its unaware set cannot be denied.

did i even say that it checks non-zen headbutt medicham? yea.. there's a reason why some of the better sm teams are using clefable. it brings a ton of utility to the table.

The non-Zen Medi point was way more significant in ORAS, though. Now, unless you like being annoyed heavily by A-Wak, you pretty much have to run Zen on Medi. F/O is nice obviously for annoying frailer offense but IMO Zen is just really good on Medi.

Edit: I guess I should rephrase it as Zen being far easier to fit onto Medi, thus making Clef an even shakier check.

 

[churine]

so starmie was nommed to b and i agree with them

Starmie to B-/B: Pheromosa's ban means two things for Starmie, the first one is that Starmie has one less check to deal with, which is major since it was Phero, and the second is that Starmie no longer has to compete with Phero as a spinner. Starmie is now one of only two OU viable spinners left (other is Exca) and the meta is all based around hazard stacking, making spinners a huge asset. Starmie is the better of the two as a spinner due to the fact that it beats every hazard setter (bar greninja & ferro forces it to run hp fire) and threatens Ghost-types that try to switch in to spinblock it with Analytic Hydro Pump. And if its the best spinner in OU, and currently in a Spikes filled meta, why is it even close to C? It has flaws like being weak to Koko, Gren and Tangrowth but being the go-to spinner now doesn't justify C, or even B- imo.

as for the other noms, they seem reasonable but i disagree with zygarde tbh, a bit too early to say. i kinda wanted to put my thoughts on starmie.

 

[Funbot28]

A+ -> S

I agreed with this nomination even before the Pheromosa ban and I find it holds more ground after Phero's absence in the metagame. Whether it be Choice Band, SubCoil, Offensive DD, or even a DD + Coil set, Zygarde is arguably one of the most difficult threats to deal with. Tarrows + its solid bulk allows Zygarde to circumvent most of its supposed answers such as Skarmory, Landorus-T, and I have also even started to see Dragonium Z be used on DD sets to beat out Tangrowth after a boost. Zygarde remains too consistent of a reliable wincon or wallbreaker to not be S at this point, which is why I believe it should rise to S-Rank.

 

[Toshiro46]

no I completely disagree

clefable is one of the hardest pokemon to wear down in a metagame plagued by hazard stacking teams. you claim that its niche of checking zygarde is redundant with pokemon such as landorus-t and tangrowth around when zygarde are commonly running toxic, one of the reasons why zygarde balances are so effective at the moment. meanwhile, if you have a clefable, coil zygarde will never sweep. clefable has also started to pick up in usage because it is one of the better stealth rock users in the tier due to its great typing and threat of coverage moves such as flamethrower and knock off, both of which have insane utility. fyi you claim that pheromosa leaving means clefable got worse but (a) that was just a factor to clefable's effectiveness, not its whole niche & (b) it no longer has to run shitty spreads with some special defense to check specs and z-fight pheromosa. i've only been talking about the magic guard set this whole time. it's importance to the stall and semi-stall archetypes with its unaware set cannot be denied.

did i even say that it checks non-zen headbutt medicham? yea.. there's a reason why some of the better sm teams are using clefable. it brings a ton of utility to the table.

Magic Guard Clef still falls prey to SubCoil Zygarde if it gets 2 boosts, because by then it's a reliable 2HKO. It really doesn't wall Zygarde, which is what you're saying ("if you have a clef, zygarde won't sweep"), it's just a decent check. It doesn't need to be dead for a Zygarde sweep, it just needs to be injured enough that Zygarde can finish it or get off a boost or two while it heals itself, or it needs to not come in until Zygarde has gotten off a boost.

Tangrowth A -> A+ is well warranted. It checks way too much of the metagame while also serving as a decent offensive presence with Knock off and the HP of its choice.

Starmie -> Rise Sticky Webs HO is becoming more and more common, and Starmie beats both Smeargle and Shuckle while also keeping Webs off the field. Brings them down to their sash, then KOes with rapid spin. That's invaluable, especially after the absence of Phero.

 

[Leo]

Magic Guard Clef still falls prey to SubCoil Zygarde if it gets 2 boosts, because by then it's a reliable 2HKO. It really doesn't wall Zygarde, which is what you're saying ("if you have a clef, zygarde won't sweep"), it's just a decent check. It doesn't need to be dead for a Zygarde sweep, it just needs to be injured enough that Zygarde can finish it or get off a boost or two while it heals itself, or it needs to not come in until Zygarde has gotten off a boost.

Tangrowth A -> A+ is well warranted. It checks way too much of the metagame while also serving as a decent offensive presence with Knock off and the HP of its choice.

Starmie -> Rise Sticky Webs HO is becoming more and more common, and Starmie beats both Smeargle and Shuckle while also keeping Webs off the field. Brings them down to their sash, then KOes with rapid spin. That's invaluable, especially after the absence of Phero.

Yes of course if you let your opponent take 50 from your Clef for no reason and then let its Zygarde get to +2 it won't stop it lol. I guess you could say "a at least decently played Clefable will always stop a Zygarde sweep" if you really think it's necessary but in a real game scenario you will never get the chance to sweep with Zyg if your opp has a Clef

 

[Scribble]

A -> A+
​

Keldeo has been getting so much traction lately, and I believe it only got better with the Pheromosa ban. It is imo the best Scarfer in the tier, and it can hit like a truck with its Specs set, or even serve as a win con with its CM + Normalium Z set. In nearly every team I've built recently I've found myself throwing on Keldeo because it covers so much and I barely lose anything from doing so. It has great synergy with a lot of popular mons like Volcarona, Mega Mawile, and Greninja.

General Strengths​

Keldeo is probably the best Scarfer in the tier. It outspeeds every other relevant scarfer bar Gengar (though that has taken a hit in viability with Pheromosa leaving) and Greninja (which is an uncommon set that Keldeo beats if it isn't running Extrasensory). It speed ties with Terrakion, but that isn't common and you live a hit from anyway and can OHKO it in return. It's super splashable, and can be customed to your team. Weak to Volcarona? Add Stone Edge on Keldeo. Weak to Gyarados? Throw on HP Electric. Salamence? Icy Wind! Icy Wind also allows it to slow down threats in a last resort situation. It can spread burns with Scald, threaten Special walls with Secret Sword, and throw off more powerful Water hits with Surf/Hydro Pump. It's not the easiest thing to switch into, with its main switch in being Tapu Fini, which is super easy to wear down. Water/Fighting coverage is great in general, and the OU mons it can't hit like Gyarados die to HP Electric, or can be dealt with by its teammates. Aside from its Scarf set, its Specs set hits like a truck. It has a good Speed tier, and absolutely nukes mons, such as:

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Celesteela: 202-238 (50.7 - 59.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tangrowth: 171-202 (42.3 - 50%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hidden Power Electric vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Toxapex: 142-168 (46.7 - 55.2%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 292-345 (76.2 - 90%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 240 HP / 212+ SpD Zygarde: 207-244 (49.6 - 58.5%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Icy Wind vs. 240 HP / 212+ SpD Zygarde: 276-328 (66.1 - 78.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Calm Mind + Normalium Z can catch people off guard, and Keldeo can blow past its common answers of Tapu Fini and Toxapex with this set.
Keldeo also has pretty good bulk for an offensive mon at 91/90/90, and allow it to live hits/take less damage you wouldn't expect. For example:

252 Atk Aerilate Pinsir-Mega Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Keldeo: 194-230 (60 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

All in all, Keldeo is a splashable, devastating revenge killer and late game cleaner, with its common answers able to be worn down relatively easily, and should move up to A+.

SPL​

It got 13th place in usage in SPL, and has a ~60% win rate. Of the top 20 most used mons, it has the third highest win rate. In one of the most prestigious tournaments with highly skilled players, this Gen 6 tyrant has managed to still make a splash. It has a higher win rate than other A+ mons like Zygarde and Celesteela, even. People thought this mon was a lot worse at the start of this gen, and it didn't see much use. However, once its Scarf set started to pick up, it picked up a lot, and Keldeo became super common in tournament. Whenever usage stats come out, Keldeo will probably rise back to OU, and if not this update, the next.

Pheromosa​

Finally, one of the most restrictive tyrants of OU has finally left. Pheromosa leaving has caused Greninja to start running wild. Keldeo is arguably the best offensive check to Greninja, since it can live any hit from either Greninja bar Extrasensory and OHKO with Secret Sword. Pheromosa leaving also makes Toxapex less common, which is one of Keldeo's best answers. Scarf Gengar has taken a hit in viability, and that was one of the only scarfers that could outspeed Scarf Keldeo.

 

[Toshiro46]

Yes of course if you let your opponent take 50 from your Clef for no reason and then let its Zygarde get to +2 it won't stop it lol. I guess you could say "a at least decently played Clefable will always stop a Zygarde sweep" if you really think it's necessary but in a real game scenario you will never get the chance to sweep with Zyg if your opp has a Clef

Chip is unavoidable most of the time, what with switches and everything. Clef doesn't even need to be down to 50 it just needs to be in range of a +1 2HKO from Thousand Arrows, which means it only has to be down to like 70-90%. So you switch in your 90% clef to Zygarde while it coils (or subs and then coils), next turn it hits you with thousand arrows and you hit it back with moonblast, and suddenly you're in range of being finished off. Basically clef has trouble with +1 SubCoil Zygarde because if its taken basically any damage it can be 2HKOed. If it gets to +2, it just 2HKOs without any chip whatsoever.

+1 0 Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 184 Def Clefable: 151-178 (38.3 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery - with chip, that becomes a 2HKO.

+2 0 Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 184 Def Clefable: 201-237 (51 - 60.1%) -- 88.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery - straight up.

0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 240 HP / 212+ SpD Zygarde: 152-180 (36.4 - 43.1%) -- 96.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery - 3HKO, so it switches in on a Zygarde coil, Zygarde coils again and takes 40% from moonblast, then fires off thousand arrows and takes another moonblast, and then outspeeds and KOs Clef with the next Thousand Arrows while being at 35% or so health.

That's not a counter. A counter is something like scarf nihilego against Volcarona, because it can switch in to any of Volcarona's attacks (It doesn't like HP Ground but it can take one nonetheless and also HP Ground is becoming less common on Volc) or Quiver Dance and then cleanly KO it everytime in the next turn.

SubCoil Zygarde, from what I can see, beats Clef 1v1 most of the time if the Clef is switching in. Correct me if I'm not seeing this the right way.

 

[Leo]

Chip is unavoidable most of the time, what with switches and everything. Clef doesn't even need to be down to 50 it just needs to be in range of a +1 2HKO from Thousand Arrows, which means it only has to be down to like 70-90%. So you switch in your 90% clef to Zygarde while it coils (or subs and then coils), next turn it hits you with thousand arrows and you hit it back with moonblast, and suddenly you're in range of being finished off. Basically clef has trouble with +1 SubCoil Zygarde because if its taken basically any damage it can be 2HKOed. If it gets to +2, it just 2HKOs without any chip whatsoever.

+1 0 Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 184 Def Clefable: 151-178 (38.3 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery - with chip, that becomes a 2HKO.

+2 0 Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 184 Def Clefable: 201-237 (51 - 60.1%) -- 88.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery - straight up.

0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 240 HP / 212+ SpD Zygarde: 152-180 (36.4 - 43.1%) -- 96.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery - 3HKO, so it switches in on a Zygarde coil, Zygarde coils again and takes 40% from moonblast, then fires off thousand arrows and takes another moonblast, and then outspeeds and KOs Clef with the next Thousand Arrows while being at 35% or so health.

That's not a counter. A counter is something like scarf nihilego against Volcarona, because it can switch in to any of Volcarona's attacks (It doesn't like HP Ground but it can take one nonetheless and also HP Ground is becoming less common on Volc) or Quiver Dance and then cleanly KO it everytime in the next turn.

SubCoil Zygarde, from what I can see, beats Clef 1v1 most of the time if the Clef is switching in. Correct me if I'm not seeing this the right way.

I think you're ignoring what was stated first, basically while Clefable is around Coil Zyg won't sweep. And while Clef doesn't beat it 1v1 as you've already proven, it still dents it enough to the point where its unlikely for it to get anywhere else and usually ends uo being death fodder. I guess espeed variants can be more annoying late game but those aren't as common on SubCoil mainly cause SubCoil usually aims to give Stall a headache. Getting chip on a mon immune to hazards like Clef is pretty difficult unless you send it in on something it doesn't beat which is why it was a beast last gen. It's still not the most reliable answer I guess but having Clef on a team should be enough unless the rest of your team can't beat Zyg

 

[Virizain]

I think you're ignoring what was stated first, basically while Clefable is around Coil Zyg won't sweep. And while Clef doesn't beat it 1v1 as you've already proven, it still dents it enough to the point where its unlikely for it to get anywhere else and usually ends uo being death fodder. I guess espeed variants can be more annoying late game but those aren't as common on SubCoil mainly cause SubCoil usually aims to give Stall a headache. Getting chip on a mon immune to hazards like Clef is pretty difficult unless you send it in on something it doesn't beat which is why it was a beast last gen. It's still not the most reliable answer I guess but having Clef on a team should be enough unless the rest of your team can't beat Zyg

He isn't trying to imply that Clefable counters Zygarde, but that Zygarde can actually beat Clefable 1v1 and can still beat it if it gets in some chip damage, making it a really shaky check to Zygarde. Clefable just barely avoids a 2HKO from everything in OU and its that little bit of chip damage that actually counts, as stall dosn't really have an answer to CB Zygarde besides Clefable, so the whole "unless the rest of your team can't beat Zyg" is a lot more true then you make it out to be. Zygarde can also do this with its last slot:

252+ Atk Choice Band Zygarde Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 64 Def Clefable: 356-420 (90.3 - 106.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

The last slot that Zygarde runs is either Iron Tail/Toxic and Toxic is still a menace for Unaware Clefable because with Poison Damage, CB Zygarde can still break through Clefable, regardless of what it runs in its last slot.

252+ Atk Choice Band Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 178-210 (45.1 - 53.2%) -- 32.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and toxic damage

Yeah, Clefable isin't even an actual check to Zygarde.

 

[Leo]

He isn't trying to imply that Clefable counters Zygarde, but that Zygarde can actually beat Clefable 1v1 and can still beat it if it gets in some chip damage, making it a really shaky check to Zygarde. Clefable just barely avoids a 2HKO from everything in OU and its that little bit of chip damage that actually counts, as stall dosn't really have an answer to CB Zygarde besides Clefable, so the whole "unless the rest of your team can't beat Zyg" is a lot more true then you make it out to be. Zygarde can also do this with its last slot:
252+ Atk Choice Band Zygarde Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 64 Def Clefable: 356-420 (90.3 - 106.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

The last slot that Zygarde runs is either Iron Tail/Toxic and Toxic is still a menace for Unaware Clefable because with Poison Damage, CB Zygarde can still break through Clefable, regardless of what it runs in its last slot.

252+ Atk Choice Band Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 178-210 (45.1 - 53.2%) -- 32.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and toxic damage

Yeah, Clefable isin't even an actual check to Zygarde.

We're talking about Coil Zygarde? At least that's what I'm talking about. If you read the post he quoted more carefully it says "Coil Zygarde will never sweep" so your calcs mean nothing. A full health Clef can weaken Zygarde to a point it won't sweep anymore, I don't know what you're talking about

 

[Virizain]

We're talking about Coil Zygarde? At least that's what I'm talking about. If you read the post he quoted more carefully it says "Coil Zygarde will never sweep" so your calcs mean nothing. A full health Clef can weaken Zygarde to a point it won't sweep anymore, I don't know what you're talking about

Even if you imply Coil Zygarde, Coil Zygarde is far from its best set so either you have to sit back and beg for it not to be choice band (99.9% Choice Band) or you admit that Clefable is not an actual check to Zygarde. Unaware Clefable is still Crippled by Toxic and can't force out Zygarde fast enough while only checking one of its sets to even be considered a check in its own right. The above calcs show what everyone and their mothers use on Zygarde, so in no way do they mean "nothing".

 

[Gary]

252+ Atk Choice Band Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 178-210 (45.1 - 53.2%) -- 32.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and toxic damage

Magic Guard Clefable is being implied here, so Toxic is irrelevant. So unless you get extremely unlucky and Zygarde hits you for absolutely max rolls and Clef is slightly chipped, then yes, Clefable is actually a check to Zygarde lol. As long as Clef still has Lefties, you 100% 1v1 Zygarde, and you can still even semi-reliably hard switch into CB Thousand Arrows, so I'm not sure what you're trying to argue against at this point when your own calc actually disproved your own point. Unaware Clef is shakier, yes, but Magic Guard is definitely a very reliable Zygarde check.

 

[p2]

i mean coil zyg is one of its best sets atm because it rides off the cb hype and abuses most mons that can afford to switch into cb zyg, mainly mega sciz, max/max chans, alo, various other very fat things, i don't get where this idea that coil zyg has ever been bad has come from, it's still extremely dangerous. idk where this impression that clefable isn't even a zygarde check has come from. on stall, unaware clef can also afford to pivot into zyg once because theres a v high chance rocks aren't gonna be up giving you can opportunity to scout its set based on damage done, + wishtect will be able to heal it up, but afterwards you wont be bringing clef into zyg.

also fuck toxapex, that mon should be a+. woulda argued for s before, but i think the introduction of things like medi is super lame for it because its insanely easy to punish passive shit now with gren uturns into medi :sob:

 

[Indigo Plateau]

Even if you imply Coil Zygarde, Coil Zygarde is far from its best set so either you have to sit back and beg for it not to be choice band (99.9% Choice Band) or you admit that Clefable is not an actual check to Zygarde. Unaware Clefable is still Crippled by Toxic and can't force out Zygarde fast enough while only checking one of its sets to even be considered a check in its own right. The above calcs show what everyone and their mothers use on Zygarde, so in no way do they mean "nothing".

First, you guys should try running Encore Clef. This is a great way to prevent stuff like Volc from setting up on your face and also beats the likes of Fini and Coil Zygarde (which is not bad by any means at all). Of course, you give up Flamethrower/Knock Off, but this depends on the team.

Second, I'm not sure if this is just from my experience, but the most common Clef set (by far) that I use/see higher ladder is 252/252+.

+2 0 Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 169-201 (42.8 - 51%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 178-210 (45.1 - 53.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Yeah, if you let Zygarde get to +2 then that's your fault but I'm not sure how you can let that happen in the first place. Not only that, but you're not even 2hkod at that point, and you're not even 2hkod by the band set either unless you get unlucky.

What does Toxic have to do with anything? Vertex clearly stated he was talking about Magic Guard Clef for Zygarde.

You're also forgetting about all the utility Clef brings, like being the only SR user to beat Sableye.

EDIT: Greninja'd to the max, lol, I should really stop posting through my phone

 

[Virizain]

252+ Atk Choice Band Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 178-210 (45.1 - 53.2%) -- 32.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and toxic damage

Magic Guard Clefable is being implied here, so Toxic is irrelevant. So unless you get extremely unlucky and Zygarde hits you for absolutely max rolls and Clef is slightly chipped, then yes, Clefable is actually a check to Zygarde lol. As long as Clef still has Lefties, you 100% 1v1 Zygarde, and you can still even semi-reliably hard switch into CB Thousand Arrows, so I'm not sure what you're trying to argue against at this point when your own calc actually disproved your own point. Unaware Clef is shakier, yes, but Magic Guard is definitely a very reliable Zygarde check.

Clefable | SM | Smogon Strategy Pokedex

This set doesn't even exist. 252/252 def+ Clefable only runs that defense spread on the Unaware sets, so that's why I implied it, because Magic Guard Clefable just does this:

252+ Atk Choice Band Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 184 Def Clefable: 210-247 (53.2 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Magic Guard Sets don't check Zygarde, but Unaware sets do so, albeit shakily, but it isin't a reliable check to Zygarde.

 

[Colonel M]

Clefable | SM | Smogon Strategy Pokedex

This set doesn't even exist. 252/252 def+ Clefable only runs that defense spread on the Unaware sets, so that's why I implied it, because Magic Guard Clefable just does this:

252+ Atk Choice Band Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 184 Def Clefable: 210-247 (53.2 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Magic Guard Sets don't check Zygarde, but Unaware sets do so, albeit shakily, but it isin't a reliable check to Zygarde.

The dex entries still need to be updated. Were we to go the route of "a set doesn't exist" we would be excluding Choice Band Zygarde 50% because it isn't even in the analysis.

Clefable is still solid and though it isn't a wonderful counter it can check Zygarde okay. Only Tectonic Rage or CB Iron Tail Zygarde can really threaten Clefable IMO since Magic Guard is immune to Toxic and Zygarde needs a couple Coils to become threatening. Choice Band Thousand Arrows is kind of sloppy with 2HKOes too.

Magic Guard Clefable is still pretty good in this meta. Max / max Bold can check non-Zen Headbutt Mega Medicham and, as some like Vertex noted, it has great utility tools in Thunder Wave, Knock Off, and Stealth Rock.

 

[Virizain]

The dex entries still need to be updated. Were we to go the route of "a set doesn't exist" we would be excluding Choice Band Zygarde 50% because it isn't even in the analysis.

Clefable is still solid and though it isn't a wonderful counter it can check Zygarde okay. Only Tectonic Rage or CB Iron Tail Zygarde can really threaten Clefable IMO since Magic Guard is immune to Toxic and Zygarde needs a couple Coils to become threatening. Choice Band Thousand Arrows is kind of sloppy with 2HKOes too.

Magic Guard Clefable is still pretty good in this meta. Max / max Bold can check non-Zen Headbutt Mega Medicham and, as some like Vertex noted, it has great utility tools in Thunder Wave, Knock Off, and Stealth Rock.

May All Your Clefables Burn To a Crisp

----> C++++

With Pheromosa being Banned, Tapu Fini falling off quite a bit, and the fact that Tapu Koko and Greninja are everywhere now makes Kyurem better then ever before. Dragon/Ice typing isn't the best defensively but still allows it to come into Tapu Koko, Protean Greninja, Rotom-Wash, and Mega Vena while still allowing it to hard check nearly every single bulky water,grass, and ground type in OU bar Tapu Fini is great, and not being major pursuit targets for everything with pursuit like Latios and not being awful like Hydreigon makes it worthy for something higher then what Magneton is ranked in. It has almost 0 switch ins in all of OU and hits even resists stupidly hard with its STAB or passable coverage options in the form of Earth Power/Focus Blast/ Hidden Power Fire and even roosts to switch into the aforementioned mons consistently, while having enough bulk to swallow things like Scarf Keldeo's Secret Sword, Magearna's flash cannon, and even a chance to 81.2% to tank Tapu Lele's moonblast allow it to easily muscle through bulkier builds that become slightly better upon Pheromosa's absence.

Offensive Calcs

252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Toxapex: 214-252 (70.3 - 82.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Magearna: 260-308 (86.3 - 102.3%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metagross-Mega: 180-214 (59.8 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 232 HP / 80 SpD Thick Fat Venusaur-Mega: 176-210 (49 - 58.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 320-378 (79.2 - 93.5%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Keldeo: 348-409 (107.7 - 126.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Lele: 195-231 (69.3 - 82.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Defensive Calcs

(Super Effective Hits)

252 SpA Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kyurem: 302-356 (77.2 - 91%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Magearna Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem: 288-338 (73.6 - 86.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 SpA Tapu Fini Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem: 216-254 (55.2 - 64.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Tapu Lele Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem: 338-402 (86.4 - 102.8%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

(Resisted Hits)

252 SpA Magnet Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem in Electric Terrain: 117-138 (29.9 - 35.2%) -- 20.7% chance to 3HKO

4 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kyurem: 175-208 (44.7 - 53.1%) -- 31.3% chance to 2HKO

0 SpA Rotom-Wash Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem: 67-80 (17.1 - 20.4%) -- possible 5HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Steam Eruption vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem: 161-190 (41.1 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

[Toshiro46]

He isn't trying to imply that Clefable counters Zygarde, but that Zygarde can actually beat Clefable 1v1 and can still beat it if it gets in some chip damage, making it a really shaky check to Zygarde.

Don't speak for me. We're talking about SubCoil Zygarde's performance vs Magic Guard Clefable, which has little to do with stall as most if not all Clefs on stall are Unaware. It also has little to do with Choice Band Zygarde, because Choice Band Zygarde and SubCoil Zygarde work completely differently.

Vertex is mostly right; SubCoil won't sweep while Magic Guard Clef is healthy. But SubCoil *does* beat Clef 1v1, which was the point of my post. Even though it beats it 1v1, it's left too weakened after the 2 Moonblasts (30% or so health) to sweep unless it's running Espeed... which is why I argued again that it's not such a definitive thing.