CAP Updates: Plasmanta (Complete)

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1. What kind of moves does Plasmanta need to uphold its metagame role?
2. Given Plasmanta's subpar coverage moves, does it need new coverage? Why or why not?

Since Plasmanta often acts as a Wallbreaker or as a Revenge Killer when holding a Choice currently, I agree with most people than a coverage move would be a nice addition regarding how much trouble the LO Set has to break through Ground Type, a pivoting move would help nearly every Set of Plasmanta, especially the Scarf. I'd personnaly like to see at least a "semi reliable" recovery on Plasmanta and some support move because he has such an interesting defensive typing which allows him to deal with Cawmodore, Tapu Koko, Magearna, Tomohawk (especially when this one will lose Earth Power)... Bulky Plasmanta was already usable last gen, but the lack of way to recover and of utility move held it back.

3. Is Volt Switch a move that Plasmanta absolutely needs? Why or why not?

Plasmanta doesn't "absolutely" need Volt Switch since he's far from being a momemtum killer as he has enough power to not being passive, at least when he's not a Scarf version. This move doesn't provide any help against Ground Type neither. But as said earlier by several people above, Volt Switch isn't going to make Plasmanta a broken Mon, it will simply be a very plot Move which allows to hit some switch (other than Ground Type), give a place in Volturn core (which is, in my opinion, one of the best playstyle int the current Metagame) and overall increase Plasmanta's viability a little bit.
 
1. What kind of moves does Plasmanta need to uphold its metagame role? Don't name specific moves (for example, say Plasmanta needs a recovery move, not Recover or Giga Drain).

Basically, what Plasmanta needs is a move which it can click and not instantly feel bad when it does no damage because the opponent brought in an immunity. The highest power move it has that doesn't just get sponged by an immunity is Dazzling Gleam, which is both on the lower end of power for a coverage move and not terribly good against the mons that switch into it assuming you're going to hit one of your other moves. Plasmanta needs something that isn't blocked by an immunity and has some nice power behind it.

2. Given Plasmanta's subpar coverage moves, does it need new coverage? Why or why not? Don't name specific moves or certain types of moves (for example, do not say that Plasmanta needs Earthquake or Ground-type coverage).

Plasmanta's largest problem is that both its STAB and coverage are easily walled, and because its movepool is so shallow, you can guess what the set is most of the time. Here's the Plasmanta moveset you are going to see more than 75% of the time

Name: Yup, this again
Plasmanta @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Storm Drain
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Sludge Wave
- Dazzling Gleam/Psychic (2:1 split on this)
- Hidden Power Fire/Hidden Power Ice (2:1 split again)

The only exception you ever see is the variant with Life Orb, which is both far less common and is also incredibly predictable (Replaces a Hidden Power with Taunt and switch Sludge Wave for Sludge Bomb. No other changes.)

Notice that this is a Scarfer with no spammable moves. You can't really use the non-Hidden Power moves safely because the overlap in mons that wall those moves is too high, and Hidden Power is unsafe because it doesn't do terribly significant damage to mons that don't have a 4x weakness. Further, because so many things resist Plasmanta's moves, it's easily revenge-killed. It also happens to have a bad match up against most trappers no matter what move you click. This makes Plasmanta an incredibly risky pokemon to stick on a team (Aurumoth, take note!). Something to alleviate the opportunity cost of clicking a move with it would be well appreciated.


3. Is Volt Switch a move that Plasmanta absolutely needs? Why or why not?)

It's not something that it absolutely needs, but Plasmanta does work best on Volt-Turn teams, and having access to Volt Switch would both make it a better asset to the team and help make is slightly less risky.
 

reachzero

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1. What kind of moves does Plasmanta need to uphold its metagame role? Don't name specific moves (for example, say Plasmanta needs a recovery move, not Recover or Giga Drain).

Plasmanta actually doesn't need much. One coverage move would be plenty, as long as it covers Ground types decently well. In terms of balance, the perfect coverage move would damage Grounds without OHKOing them outright.

2. Given Plasmanta's subpar coverage moves, does it need new coverage? Why or why not? Don't name specific moves or certain types of moves (for example, do not say that Plasmanta needs Earthquake or Ground-type coverage).

Plasmanta's lack of coverage definitely holds it back. Giving up turns to game-changing Pokemon like Landorus-Therian and Zygarde is a really dangerous thing to do, and Pursuit Assault Vest Colossoil just totally clears it out the way it is now.


3. Is Volt Switch a move that Plasmanta absolutely needs? Why or why not?


Plasmanta could live without Volt Switch. Plasmanta has a certain amount of 4mss now (or would, if it had four moves worth using), so Volt Switch might or might not even be used if Plasmanta had it. Coverage is far more important.
 

snake

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I'd like to revise my third question.

3. Would adding Volt Switch to Plasmanta be adding for the sake of adding? Why or why not?
 
3. would adding Volt Switch to plasmanta be adding for the sake of adding? Why or why not

It is pretty much forr the sake of adding. It only makes sense flavour wise and it doesn't need that volt switch to fit in with the meta. Adding competetive moves like volt switch is only needed when the mon is in really bad shape this meta, but plasmanta does really good.


The addition of volt switch would be appreciated though. We want that really good volt turn plasmanta.
 
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1. What kind of moves does Plasmanta need to uphold its metagame role?
Just to get the statement out of the way, I personally believe that Plasmanta does just fine in the metagame with the tools it has available to itself. That being said, I do not think that Plasmanta particularly needs anything to help it maintain its niche. Scarf Manta can work magic again teams that rely on faster fairies for their speed, such as Tapu Koko, scarf Tapu Lele, and it has the power to finish off already weakened mons such as Megagross. This is just an example, and im not saying its exactly its best show of work, but considering how its easy to chip Megagross throughout the game, and that it has reigned as best mega in the tier all gen, I would say its a fair example.
252 SpA Plasmanta Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metagross-Mega: 136-162 (45.1 - 53.8%) -- 41% chance to 2HKO
I'm not totally saying we shouldn't add anything either though, I'm willing to explore the other avenues people have mentioned for Plasmanta, such as options to deal with its hard checks in ground types, I'd just like us to be wary in adding things.
2. Given Plasmanta's subpar coverage moves, does it need new coverage? Why or why not?
This is basically answered in question 1. I don't think it necessarily needs new coverage at all, I think it performs great without them, but I'm interested to see how everyone else feels about coverage to deal with its checks.
3. Would adding Volt Switch to Plasmanta be adding for the sake of adding? Why or why not?
In my opinion, absolutely yes. Simply put, Plasmanta does not need Volt Switch to function, and it does great without it. Adding Volt Switch can be akin to "removing things from Tomohawk just for the sake of removing them," this was a phrase that came up several times through Hawk's update, and it can most certainly be applied here as well. We should only really add things that Plasmanta needs to perform its role better in CAP, and considering its got a solid role already, adding volt switch would just be adding to add.
 

snake

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Alright given that this thread has slown down quite a bit...I'm going to give my two cents on Volt Switch. I don't think we should allow it on Plasmanta. The arguments for including it boiled down to "Electric-types get it" and "we don't need to follow the concept." However, jas's counterexample of Stunfisk means that we don't HAVE to include it just because it's Electric-type. And if we don't follow concept, we follow established metagame role, which is a special wallbreaker. Volt Switch does create more opportunities to switch out and alleviates match ups, but it's not essential to Plasmanta's present or future success as a wallbreaker.

tl;dr Volt Switch will be disallowed because a) Electric-typing does not necessarily dictate access to Volt Switch, b) its established metagame role does not require Volt Switch, and c) it really would boil down to be "adding for the sake of adding."

With this, I'd like to move onto a moveset discussion phase. I've seen this one in the PS! room, so I'm just going to nip this one in the bud: no Ice Beam. It's completely unnecessary for how much of an update we're aiming to give Plasmanta.


Movesets should be posted in the following format:

Moveset Submission

Name: Choice Band
Move 1: Flare Blitz
Move 2: Sucker Punch
Move 3: U-turn
Move 4: Stone Edge
Ability: Guts
Item: Choice Band
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly
  • Because of CAP X's Fire typing, Flare Blitz does a lot of damage.
  • Sucker Punch allows it priority, as well as the ability to handle Slowking.
  • Stone Edge allows it to OHKO Talonflame.
  • U-Turn can be used to scout, as well as abuse predicted switches.
  • Choice Band is used to amplify damage, and fulfill CAP X's role as a wallbreaker
  • In case CAP X gets hit by status conditions, Guts raises its damage output to even higher levels.
New moves must be brought up using this format and have thorough explanations and must have calcs to back up your claims. If you don't have correct, accurate, relevant calcs that match up with your set submission, I will be less inclined to take your post seriously. Please explain every move thoroughly, even ones that Plasmanta already has. If you need some reference for good posts, please look at Kerfluffle's moveset submission thread.

Movesets To Be Polled:

Name: Coverage Queen
Move 1: Thunderbolt
Move 2: Sludge Wave
Move 3: Hidden Power [Ice] / Psychic
Move 4: Aura Sphere
Ability: Storm Drain
Item: Life Orb / Choice Specs
4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid / Modest Nature

Movesets That Need Discussion:

Blacklist: Volt Switch, Ice Beam, Scald, Surf, Muddy Water, Energy Ball, Grass Knot, Flamethrower, Fire Blast, Overheat


Again, please be smart with your submissions. This is not the place to give Plasmanta reliable recovery, boosting moves, and 5 coverage moves. Plasmanta only needs smaller tweaks, so keep this in mind.
 
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G-Luke

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Name: Choice Specs Manta
Move 1: Thunderbolt
Move 2: Sludge Wave
Move 3: Hidden Power [Fire] / Psychic
Move 4: Surf
Ability: Storm Drain
Item: Choice Specs
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid

  • Dual STAB in Thunderbolt and Sludge Wave allow it hit a good amount of the metagame for neutral damage.\
  • Hidden Power Fire allows it to fry Ferrothorn on the switch, while Psychic hits other Plasmanta and Mollux, which otherwise walls this set.
  • Surf smacks Ground types such as Colossoil, Landorus-T and Hippowdon, which could easily pivot in without risk.
  • Choice Specs makes Manta hit as hard as possible, while max speed and a timid nature allows it to speed tie with other base 100s.
252 SpA Choice Specs Plasmanta Surf vs. 0 HP / 220 SpD Assault Vest Colossoil: 200-236 (49.1 - 57.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Plasmanta Surf vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Landorus-Therian: 346-408 (90.5 - 106.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Plasmanta Surf vs. 252 HP / 16 SpD Hippowdon: 380-448 (90.4 - 106.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
 
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dwarfstar

mindless philosopher
Name: Choice Specs Manta
Move 1: Thunderbolt
Move 2: Sludge Wave
Move 3: Hidden Power [Fire] / Psychic
Move 4: Surf
Ability: Telepathy
Item: Choice Specs
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid

  • Dual STAB in Thunderbolt and Sludge Wave allow it hit a good amount of the metagame for neutral damage.\
  • Hidden Power Fire allows it to fry Ferrothorn on the switch, while Psychic hits other Plasmanta and Mollux, which otherwise walls this set.
  • Surf smacks Ground types such as Colossoil, Landorus-T and Hippowdon, which could easily pivot in without risk.
  • Choice Specs makes Manta hit as hard as possible, while max speed and a timid nature allows it to speed tie with other base 100s.
252 SpA Choice Specs Plasmanta Surf vs. 0 HP / 220 SpD Assault Vest Colossoil: 200-236 (49.1 - 57.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Plasmanta Surf vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Landorus-Therian: 346-408 (90.5 - 106.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Plasmanta Surf vs. 252 HP / 16 SpD Hippowdon: 380-448 (90.4 - 106.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
I feel like Surf goes too far as a means of beating too many of Plasmanta's checks to be workable here. Also, is there a reason you put down Telepathy over Storm Drain for its ability?
 
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G-Luke

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I feel like Surf goes too far as a means of beating too many of Plasmanta's checks to be workable here. Also, is there are reason you put down Telepathy over Storm Drain for its ability?
I just forgotten about Storm Drain tbh
 
Name: Livin' Like Larry
Move 1: Thunderbolt
Move 2: Sludge Wave
Move 3: Hidden Power [Fire] / Psychic
Move 4: Scald (Brine)
Ability: Storm Drain
Item: Life Orb
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid

Thunderbolt and Sludge Wave are your spammable STAB moves, handling a good chunk of the metagame neutrally.
HP Fire can now be run due to Ground coverage in Scald/Brine, which I will get to in a minute. It takes out opposing Steel types with a good prediction of Sludge Wave luring Steel types out. Psychic can be run instead if your team doesn't have a way to deal with Mollux and other Plasmanta.
Scald is your best coverage move, doing plenty (but is unlikely to OHKO) some Ground types that previously walled Plasmanta barring HP ice. It also has a chance to burn, crippling physical sweepers such as Mimikyu, physical Aurumoth, Crucibelle, and others. Brine is put down in case Scald is eventually blacklisted, as it has mediocre power, but if you get lucky enough to not be OHKOed and the opponent goes below half health, Brine would be very handy. Brine is still pretty good, as it 2HKOs Lando-T. It would give Plasmanta an option to deal with Ground types without being too overwhelming. I would be fine with either move, but Plasmanta cannot be hardwalled by a type that is quad effective against it and is the most common type of coverage run.

252 SpA Life Orb Plasmanta Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 276-325 (86.5 - 101.8%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Plasmanta Brine vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 224-265 (70.2 - 83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 
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LucarioOfLegends

Master Procraster
is a CAP Contributor
Thought I'd throw my hat into the ring for this.

Name: Plasmanta Power! (Spider Riders, dah nah)
Move 1: Thunderbolt
Move 2: Sludge Wave
Move 3: HP Fire / Psychic
Move 4: Surf / Energy Ball
Ability: Storm Drain
Item: Life Orb
4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid/Modest Nature


  • Thunderbolt and Sludge Wave are pretty much its major STAB moves, and hit very hard with that great Special Attack stat.
  • HP Fire is so you can hit Ferrothorn and Cawmodore, which otherwise laugh at your STAB combination.
  • Psychic is for Mollux, opposing Plasmanta, and Tomohawk, who can otherwise threaten you with their coverage and bulk.
  • Surf allows you to bash through common Ground types such as Colossoil, Landorus-T, and Fidgit, as well as having neutral coverage against a fairly good portion of the metagame. It is balanced, as Mollux and opposing Plasmanta can switch in for free and benefit.
  • Energy Ball is an alternative option that still hits Colossoil, but also hits the rarer Quagsire, Gastrodon, and eventually Swampert. It also hits Krilowatt and Rotom-Wash a fair bit harder than its other options. It, unfortunately, doesn't hit Landorus-T as hard, meaning it still is a hard check.
  • Life Orb allows Plasmanta to choose between these common options, while also having a nice boost to power.

252+ SpA Life Orb Plasmanta Surf vs. 0 HP / 220 SpD Assault Vest Colossoil: 190-226 (46.6 - 55.5%) -- 71.1% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Plasmanta Energy Ball vs. 0 HP / 220 SpD Assault Vest Colossoil: 190-226 (46.6 - 55.5%) -- 71.1% chance to 2HKO

252+ SpA Life Orb Plasmanta Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 341-403 (106.8 - 126.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Plasmanta Energy Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 170-201 (53.2 - 63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Life Orb Plasmanta Energy Ball vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Krilowatt: 364-429 (81.9 - 96.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Plasmanta Energy Ball vs. 248 HP / 20 SpD Rotom-Wash: 263-309 (86.7 - 101.9%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
 
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I'm going to put out that I'm very much not in favor of giving Plasmanta a Water move. Not only does it completely mess with his checks and balances, but doesn't answer the primary problems with Plasmanta. Plasmanta needs a Choice Scarf to not be just a terrible Tapu Koko, and it has no move it can click that won't invite an immunity in and force it out. Giving it another move that isn't safe to click is not a good strategy.
 
Name: Tank Plasmanta
Move 1: Pain Split
Move 2: Haze / Taunt
Move 3: Sludge Bomb
Move 4: Surf / Discharge
Ability: Storm Drain
Item: Black Sludge
252 HP / 200 Def / 56 Spe
Bold Nature

  • Pain Split is a semi reliable way to heal Plasmanta. Thanks to his typing and his bulk, Plasmanta is able to counter a lot of offensive Mon like M-Mawile, Tapu Koko, Tomohawk without Earth Power, Pinsir, Buzzwole and Scolipede without Earthquake, Magearna, Xurkitree, Tornadus-T, Thundurus, Tapu Bulu without Zen Headbutt, Necturna without Ground coverage, Kartana without Psycho Cut and the incomings Technician Arghonaut and Guts Naviathan without Bulldoze and Psychic Fang, respectively. Regarding how big is the list, Pain Split should be safer than something like Roost.
  • Haze allows Manta to deal with Cawmodore and some other threats like SD M-Mawile and M-Scizor and CM Clefable, while Taunt prevents the opponent to set up hazard or to heal in front of Manta, it also givessome stallbreaking possibilities.
  • Sludge bomb is a good STAB which hurts omnipresent Fairies and can inflict poison statue.
  • Surf allows you to prevent Ground types such as Colossoil, Landorus-T, and Fidgit to switch safely on you, while Discharge is another useful STAB which provide a potential paralysis.
  • EVs make Plasmanta very solid on the physical side and allow to outspeed full Speed Adamant Tapu Bulu.
  • Black Sludge provide an important progressive recovery.
I'm fully support Surf as it doesn't remove every Plasmanta's current answers nor every Ground Type (say hello to Gastrodon and Zygarde). In my opinion, Plasmanta is far from being a worst Tapu Koko since his secondary STAB kills Tangrowth, Surf will allow to pass through A-Marowak and Ground Type while freeing HP Fire instead of HP Ice and thus deal with Ferrothorn, Excadrill and Cawmodore and Psychic/ Psyshock provide a way to hurt Mollux, Mega-Venu and Revenankh, all things that Tapu Koko usually despises. Also, since Snake decided to disallow Volt Switch, being focused only on Scarf Plasmanta seems really silly to me.
 

snake

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Alright, friendly UL update...

I'm going to add Wenderz's Tank Plasmanta set and a condensed set into the Needs Discussion portion of this post. I'd like to see discussion on Pain Split, Surf, and Energy Ball. If any of these are desirable, I'd like to see more justification. If they're stupid options, or you think there's a better alternative, tell us why!

Of course, if you have anything new to contribute, post a new moveset. Keep up the discussion guys.

EDIT: Changed my mind about Scald. Burns cheese past Zygarde.
 
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Name::afrostar:Coverage Queen!:afrostar:
Move 1: Thunderbolt
Move 2: Sludge Wave
Move 3: Psychic / Hidden Power [Ice] / Hidden Power [Fire]
Move 4: Grass Knot / Aura Sphere
Ability: Storm Drain
Item: Life Orb
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid

Thunderbolt and Sludge Wave are STABs, so not much to say there. Psychic can be run to take out opposing Plasmanta and Mollux, who otherwise halt this set. Hidden Power Ice can be run instead if you want to be able to more easily take care of Zygarde, Garchomp, and Landorus-Therian. Hidden Power Fire can be run instead to deal with Steel types that are neutral or is immune to Fighting type moves, like Mega Scizor, Mega Metagross and Kitsunoh. Grass Knot is the ideal coverage to deal with common Ground types like Collosoil and Mamoswine. Aura Sphere can be run instead to take care of Ferrothorn among other Steel types, and to more effectively deal with Tyranitar.

252 SpA Life Orb Plasmanta Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Mamoswine: 575-678 (159.2 - 187.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Plasmanta Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 220 SpD Assault Vest Colossoil: 231-273 (56.7 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Plasmanta Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Colossoil: 450-530 (110.5 - 130.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Plasmanta Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 229-270 (66.9 - 78.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Plasmanta Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 177-208 (50.2 - 59%) -- 75.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Plasmanta Aura Sphere vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 307-364 (89.7 - 106.4%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
 
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OLD GREGG (im back baby)

old gregg for life
The question should be asked...Does Plasmanta want to threaten Ground or Steel checks? These are the two biggest factors in running Plasmanta. Never do you want to see Lando or Ferrothorn when using Plasmanta and seeing them both is a real headache. If we are adding coverage it should have some functionality in hitting one of these types at least neutrally. Im not too convinced we should be going out of the way to specifically target grounds.
I. E. surf, energy ball

It would be my personal preference to have something to threaten steels along the lines of aura sphere, flamethrower, or dark pulse. One of those would be suitable to threaten out things like Cawm, Ferrothorn, & Magnezone. I'm not suggesting these moves entirely but trying to spur discussion as to why we are adding this coverage move and what for exactly.
 

snake

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Given that we had a long discussion about potential coverage moves in PS! chat, I'd like to give my opinion on each of these moves.

Surf - This is the best move that Plasmanta could potentially get (at least on my watch). It targets most of the relevant-Ground types in the meta, like Landorus-T, Colossoil, Dugtrio, and Excadrill, as well as hitting specially defensive Fire-types like Volcarona and Heatran harder.

Energy Ball/Grass Knot - Lumping these together. Grass-type coverage targets more niche Ground-type counters such as Gastrodon and Quagsire; whereas the more relevant Landorus-T takes less damage. The choice between the actual moves really gets down into calcs. Overall, it seems like Grass-type coverage is safer than Surf would be.

Aura Sphere - This move is a little different from the rest. Hitting Ferrothorn instead of Ground-types lets Plasmanta run Hidden Power Ice much more freely. It also hits Heatran and Tyranitar, but not too much else.

All of these moves, though, have one thing in common: they let Plasmanta have an easier time with Hidden Power. Plasmanta has to choose between HP Fire and HP Ice to muscle past Ferrothorn or Ground-types respectively. With Water- or Grass-type coverage, Plasmanta can run HP Fire more easily; with Aura Sphere (or other similar coverage), it can run HP Ice more easily. Keeping in mind that Plasmanta will probably be receiving at maximum one of these moves...I have some more questions for everyone.

1. Is it important to the success of this update that we alleviate Plasmanta's dependency on Hidden Power? Why or why not?
2. If you answered Question 1, should we target Ferrothorn or Ground-types? Why one over the other? Include calcs and justified reasoning.

Don't forget that Pain Split is still up for discussion. Plasmanta already has potent utility moves, but they mostly fall to the wayside due to defensive sets not being all that effective. Let's discuss this move as well!

If you want to support or knock down a move in this thread, explain why we should or should not allow the move and back up your argument with calcs if possible.
 
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I 1. Is it important to the success of this update that we alleviate Plasmanta's dependency on Hidden Power? Why or why not?
I think that while we shouldn't make Hidden Power pointless, it needs to depend on it a lot less than it does now.
2. If you answered Question 1, should we target Ferrothorn or Ground-types? Why?
I think that the coverage option should head towards Ground types, as they are quad effective against Plas. Ferro is a thorn (haha) in Plasmanta's side, but the main issue for Plasmanta is that it gets hardwalled by Ground types. Also, I think that we should give it a Grass move rather than Surf, as it still helps Plasmanta check Ground types without being too overwhelming, imo. I could go either way between Energy Ball or Grass Knot, so the jury is out on that one right now.
 
1. Is it important to the success of this update that we alleviate Plasmanta's dependency on Hidden Power? Why or why not?
tbh i dont think hidden power are good for plasmanta i know is very usefull with certain mons such as ferrothorn, landorus and zygarde i really like the idea the give surf to a plasmanta beacuse make a update and no a huge boost beacuse make some troubles to landorus,volcarona, heatran, mega crucibelle, marowak alola
252 SpA Life Orb Plasmanta Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 309-367 (96.8 - 115%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Plasmanta Surf vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Volcarona: 312-368 (100.3 - 118.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Plasmanta Surf vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Heatran: 308-364 (79.7 - 94.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Plasmanta Surf vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Crucibelle-Mega: 180-212 (50.8 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Plasmanta Surf vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Marowak-Alola: 260-308 (99.6 - 118%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
2. If you answered Question 1, should we target Ferrothorn or Ground-types? Why?
i thin we should be focus on ground types beacuse that is the most counter of plasmanta and plasmanta have regular (or decent) counters like ferrothorn, chansey, quagsigre and maybe latias if plasmante get surf or grass move make a viable pokemon
 
1. Is it important to the success of this update that we alleviate Plasmanta's dependency on Hidden Power? Why or why not?

Remembering that this is a minor update, we should strive to give Plasmanta tools to do it's job easier. That said, a coverage move that'll allow it to have more freedom with it's Hidden Power choice would be a welcome addition. Maybe possibly not even having to run Hidden Power on certain sets.

2. If you answered Question 1, should we target Ferrothorn or Ground-types? Why?


A little to what I said in the answer above, I feel we shouldn't try to give it the best coverage to take out Ground types. It's a natural counter, and although we are not really trying to follow the concept anymore, having Ground types as a counter was a feature of it's concept (like disallowing Volt Switch).
Other Pokemon that are momentum sinks for Plasmanta are what our extra coverage should go after.
 
1. Is it important to the success of this update that we alleviate Plasmanta's dependency on Hidden Power? Why or why not?
Hidden Power is a move that IMO shouldn't be a cornerstone of any set that's not Technician, rather being a way to patch up your coverage where it is needed. That said, patching current Plasmanta's coverage with just HP feels like trying to use band-aid on a doubly broken leg. Sure it might support something, but no way it alleviate the core problem. That said, I think yes, Plas should definitely get 1 (and probably only 1) decent coverage move to make its coverage still subpar, but rather a bruise that actually can be suported with Hidden Power and not overloading this one universal move so much it is overloaded as of now.


2. If you answered Question 1, should we target Ferrothorn or Ground-types? Why?

There are quite a lot strong counters for Plaswanta anyway. I thnik having a way to dent most regular dangerous ones, which generally are Ground-types, still leaves quite a lot of ways to effectively deal with Plasmata with its quad weakness and still shallow, just finally not nonexistant coverage movepool leading into solid level of predictability. Therefore, I think Surf is the way to go, giving Plasmanta several options to work with in one move while still retaining a healthy amount of counters or other cold-stoppers for either whole mon or "just" a multitude of its sets.
Also, Plasmanta has Water Pulse as of now, so getting another stronger move of the same typing feels just somewhat right.
 

snake

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I've revised the second question in post #44. If you've posted, make sure your post answers the new question/request.

Calcs, explanation, and conclusions are important for me to see when I need to make a decision for a coverage move slate, so for every move, use these as part of your argument.
 
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Drapionswing

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I'm just going to be the devils advocate here and show what each coverage move does to ground types specifically.

The moveset of Thunderbolt/Sludge Wave/HP Ice/Aura Sphere with Life Orb beats/hits :

Excadrill
Garchomp
Lando-T
Mamoswine
Fidgit
Colossoil
Non-sash dugtrio
Zygarde
Gliscor

Thunderbolt/Sludge Wave/HP Fire/Surf with Life Orb:

Excadrill
Lando-T
Mamoswine
Fidgit
Colossoil
Non-Sash Dugtrio
Gliscor

Thunderbolt/Sludge Wave/HP Fire/Energy Ball with Life Orb. This being the worse option as it doesn't alleviate plasmantas stress when choosing a hidden power as much as the other two coverage options:

Excadrill
Colossoil
Mamoswine
Fidgit
Colossoil
Non-Sash Dugtrio

Aura Sphere actually hits more as you no longer have to run HP fire for ferrothorn and which is the main thing holding Plasmanta back. Surf can't hit the Dragon/Grounds without losing out on matchup vs Ferrothorn therefore you still need to pick a Hidden Power but it's easier now. Energyball is in a worse situation as it loses out on the resident Ground/Flying types if it doesn't go HP Ice.

Overall if we do choose to add a coverage move from the current options discussed we will lose colossoil as a check and I think people are forgetting that all coverage moves hit it. As well as this Aura Sphere seems like a bigger offender to me as it hits more checks and alleviates the reliance on Hidden Power Fire completely.

For now I'm not sure what I want, but really Surf is getting a lot of bad vibes when it's honestly worse than Aura Sphere, but I don't see Aura Sphere getting as much lash back as Surf. If you don't want plasmanta to beat ground types easier none of the coverage options will preserve this for you, any set that can run HP ice easier beats grounds unless we approach Flamethrower to beat ferrothorn. I don't think we should even explore Flamethrower as that begins to hit more pokemon than we need it to.

Edit: Energy Ball only increases our matchup potential versus Mamoswine and Hippowdon(which is absent from the metagame right now) and I deem it a useless addition.
 
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