CAP Updates: Arghonaut Discussion (Complete)

Status
Not open for further replies.
Given the tools that Arghonaut already has in its arsenal combined with the tools it has already received or will likely receive from this update, a pivoting move seems rather excessive. Misty Surge and reliable recovery combined with likely additions in Circle Throw, Scald, and potentially even an entry hazard will be more than enough to provide Arghonaut with a usable niche. Arghonaut doesn't need to be Fidgit 2.0 to be a viable pick. So, keeping in line with our update principles, I'm against adding any of U-turn, Volt Switch, or Parting Shot.
 

jas61292

used substitute
is a Community Contributoris a Top CAP Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Pivoting, especially Parting Shot, would be absolutely a terrible idea now that we have misty surge. Argho can now easily set up terrain and any pivot move would let it then take a hit and get out to something else that can now take advantage of a turn or more of status immunity while not having to be hard switched in. But parting shot would just make this absurd. Something would be in, undamaged, with an opponent that can't hurt it directly or with status. Its makes setting up far too easy, and Argho really has no business supporting that well.
 

snake

is a Community Leaderis a Top CAP Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
CAP Co-Leader
If we give Arghonaut Scald, Circle Throw, and Spikes, (which all have my full support now), it should be using its turns actually using those, not using a pivot move. Pivoting seems excessive given what we want Arghonaut to do now, especially with Misty Terrain.
 
If we give Arghonaut Scald, Circle Throw, and Spikes, (which all have my full support now), it should be using its turns actually using those, not using a pivot move. Pivoting seems excessive given what we want Arghonaut to do now, especially with Misty Terrain.
I just want to point out something to everyone: Arghonaut won't be able to burn with Scald while Misty Terrain is up. Keep in mind that everyone on the field is immune to status when Misty Terrain is active, not just the Pokemon on your team. I would never use Scald because it's coming off a measly 75 Special Attack stat, and can't even burn for a large percentage of the time.

Overall I agree with Snake's post (quoted) and the sentiments of many others that pivoting via U-Turn or Parting Shot seems like it would be going too far. I have high hopes that Arghonaut will end up learning Spikes, and support the team via hazards, phazing, temporary status immunity, and (maybe) hazard removal. Status doesn't seem worth using when Misty Terrain is active a large percentage of the battle.

Edit: I do see the merits of Scald for the Unaware set, but my main point is that we should just remember that Scald can't be relied on for utility very much along with Misty Terrain.
 
Given the tools that Arghonaut already has in its arsenal combined with the tools it has already received or will likely receive from this update, a pivoting move seems rather excessive. Misty Surge and reliable recovery combined with likely additions in Circle Throw, Scald, and potentially even an entry hazard will be more than enough to provide Arghonaut with a usable niche. Arghonaut doesn't need to be Fidgit 2.0 to be a viable pick. So, keeping in line with our update principles, I'm against adding any of U-turn, Volt Switch, or Parting Shot.
Okay, so I'm now seeing why U-Turn is too much as well. It allows teams to easily set up without fail on Argho's end so long as it lives the first turn. In fact, it's even unnecessary, as if I'm remembering correctly, Argho gets Baton Pass. For these reasons, as the original person to propose U-Turn, I withdraw my suggestion of U-Turn. I agree now that U-Turn is a little much for Argho, and I personally believe Scald, Circle Throw and Spikes are good enough now.
 

HeaLnDeaL

Let's Keep Fighting
is an Artistis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnus
Blackdrakon30 said:
I just want to point out something to everyone: Arghonaut won't be able to burn with Scald while Misty Terrain is up. Keep in mind that everyone on the field is immune to status when Misty Terrain is active, not just the Pokemon on your team. I would never use Scald because it's coming off a measly 75 Special Attack stat, and can't even burn for a large percentage of the time.
This is only partially correct. Not everyone on the field is immune to status under Misty Terrain; mons that are not grounded can still be burned. In particular this means opposing Landorus-T can be burned, though I'm not sure why he'd switch into Argho to start with but oh well. Tomohawk can be burned I guess.

Anyway I'm not trying to say that burning airborne mons is incredibly ultra relevant, but it's a mechanic that was missed in the above quote. Unaware is more likely to run scald anyway.
 

G-Luke

Sugar, Spice and One For All
is a Community Contributoris a CAP Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnus
Burning Tapu Bulu, an otherwise prime switchin, is an excellent option as well.
 

G-Luke

Sugar, Spice and One For All
is a Community Contributoris a CAP Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnus
Name: Davy Jones (Band):
Move 1: Close Combat
Move 2: Aqua Jet
Move 3: Earthquake
Move 4: Gunk Shot / Ice Hammer
Ability: Misty Surge
Item: Choice Band
EVs: 160 HP / 252 Atk / 96 Spe
Nature: Adamant

A Choice Band set can be run to lure in threats and checks to its defensive sets.
  • Adamant Nature allows Arghonaut to hit as hard as possible, putting many dents into opposing teams due to unexpected power.
  • Misty Surge is the ability of choice, as it allows Arghonaut to not care for status, allowing it to play more reckless early game.
  • Stat spread allows Argh to outpace Tapu Fini and Defensive Tomo and nail it with a Potential Gunk Shot/Ice Hammer Respectively. Attackis maximized to fully utilize Band. Rest is placed into HP to stomach some hits better.
  • Close Combat is the STAB move of choice, hitting nonresists for high damage.
  • Aqua Jet is STAB priority, which allows it to threaten faster, frailer targets.
  • Earthquake is mandatory coverage, which allows it to trample Mollux and Plasmanta, Pokemon who otherwise completely wall it.
  • Gunk Shot hits Fairies that resist its main STAB for supereffective damage, OHKOing most of them. Ice Hammer, on the other hand, allows it to threaten Dragons like Cyclothm, Tomohawk, and Grass types neutral to Gunk Shot.

Calcs
252+ Atk Choice Band Arghonaut Gunk Shot vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tapu Bulu: 680-800 (241.1 - 283.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO


252+ Atk Choice Band Arghonaut Ice Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 248-292 (59.9 - 70.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Arghonaut Gunk Shot vs. 248 HP / 192 Def Tapu Fini: 288-340 (83.9 - 99.1%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
(288, 292, 294, 298, 302, 306, 308, 312, 316, 318, 322, 326, 328, 332, 336, 340)

252+ Atk Choice Band Arghonaut Ice Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cyclohm: 204-242 (48.5 - 57.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Arghonaut Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 184 Def Clefable: 396-468 (100.5 - 118.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 

Deck Knight

Blast Off At The Speed Of Light! That's Right!
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Top CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Top Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
It is at this moment I would like to announce that due to my own counting error (discovered last week after a Ranked Pairs Script brought the counting error to our attention), Misty Surge was incorrectly selected as the winner to Arghonaut's Ability Poll, and Technician was the proper winner. There are additional discussions to be had on Misty Surge and similar abilities in a separate thread, but do be aware I have contacted DarkSlay and we are making progress on whether to re-Open Competitive Movepool Submissions or re-poll some of the options.

I deeply aplogize for this error and will work to rectify it by any means. I did not learn of this until well after the Poll closed on the 26th of March, and have had little personal time to address it.

Correct Results Here:
 

nv

The Lost Age
is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Staff Alumnus
Figured I would post something related to Technician since no one has seemed to comment on it after DK revealing it to be the winner instead of Misty Surge.


Name: Aye Aye Captain!
Move 1: Aqua Jet
Move 2: Storm Throw
Move 3: Earthquake / Mach Punch
Move 4: Icicle Spear / Gunk Shot
Ability: Technician
Item: Choice Band
EVs: 200 HP / 252 Atk / 56 Spe
Nature: Adamant
  • Choice Band gives Arghonaut a respectable power boost, allowing it to plow through the common checks and counters it has.
  • 56 Speed EVs allow Arghonaut to outspeed fully invested, neutral natured base 50s while giving it as much bulk as possible.
  • Aqua Jet is a reliable priority that is also boosted by Technician, allowing Arghonaut to pick off weakened threats.
  • Storm Throw is a reliable wallbreaking STAB that gets boosted to 90 BP thanks to Technician while also blowing past setup sweepers that aren't Ghost-type thanks to the 100% critical hit rate.
  • Earthquake is strictly for hitting Mollux and Plasmanta, who otherwise wall Arghonaut completely.
  • That said, Mach Punch can be nice as Storm Throw 2HKOes specially defensive Mollux and Plasmanta and gives Arghonaut a secondary option for priority.
  • Icicle Spear provides Arghonaut with a reliable coverage move to nail Flying-types such as Tomohawk and Zapdos while also surprising Zygarde and Landorus-T.
  • Gunk Shot is still nice to nail Tapu Fini and Tapu Lele, who are otherwise a thorn in Arghonaut's side.
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Arghonaut Icicle Spear (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 276-330 (66.6 - 79.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Arghonaut Storm Throw vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Plasmanta on a critical hit: 139-164 (53 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Arghonaut Storm Throw vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mollux on a critical hit: 189-222 (57 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Arghonaut Icicle Spear (3 hits) vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Zapdos: 288-342 (75.1 - 89.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Arghonaut Storm Throw vs. 248 HP / 192 Def Tapu Fini on a critical hit: 122-144 (35.5 - 41.9%) -- 86.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Arghonaut Icicle Spear (3 hits) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Necturna: 360-426 (133.3 - 157.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO


Name: Pegleg
Move 1: Scald
Move 2: Circle Throw
Move 3: Spikes
Move 4: Recover
Ability: Unaware
Item: Leftovers
EVs: 200 HP / 204 Def / 104 SpD
Nature: Careful
  • Leftovers gives this set passive recovery, allowing Arghonaut to keep up its presence throughout the match.
  • The EVs may look a bit wonky but they accomplish something nice. It allows Arghonaut to hit a Leftovers number while also living a Life Orb-boosted Thunderbolt from Plasmanta. The rest is dumped into Defense to make Arghonaut more bulky overall.
  • Scald is a move that I feel Arghonaut deserves since nearly every Water-type that isn't part Ice learns it and it gives Arghonaut a way to burn physical attackers.
  • Circle Throw allows Arghonaut to phaze out any setup sweeper that could potentially beat it.
  • Spikes gives Arghonaut a unique niche as it can set up Spikes and subsequently rack up entry hazard damage via STAB Circle Throw.
  • Lastly, Recover allows Arghonaut to keep itself healthy throughout the match, giving it prime opportunity to keep the setup sweepers at bay.
Hopefully this jumpstarts the discussion on Technician as I feel it can be a really good ability that allows Arghonaut to become a fearsome wallbreaker and can potentially open up new paths for it as Unaware serves as a more defensive ability while Technician can give it a more offensive niche.
 
Last edited:
welp since nv seems to be posting moves

Name: No mist pirate
Arghonaut @ Fightinium Z/leftovers
Ability: Technician
EVs: 200 HP / 252 Atk / 56 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Bulk Up
- Aqua Jet/Bulldoze
- Drain Punch
- Icicle Spear/recover

  • tbh it's actually similar to nv's choice band set, and having more technician abuse is always good
  • Basically our regular bulk up sets but with the magical technician buff
  • 56 spe is to outspeed the max speed base 50's
  • Aqua jet is there because, an essentialy 60 bp stab is really nice. If handling mollux is a problem you can always use bulldoze.
  • The extra -1 speed and the technician boost might be handy, idk if it would be accepted though
  • Icicle spear is to kill that tomohawk if you're lucky enough
  • If you want to live throughout the match, recover is handy, but drain punch might be enough
  • Fightinium z can boost your attack quickly, but if it isn't needed lefties can be run
252+ Atk Arghonaut Icicle Spear (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 132-156 (31.8 - 37.6%) -- approx. 0% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Technician Arghonaut Icicle Spear (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 372-438 (89.8 - 105.7%) -- approx. 18.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Technician Arghonaut Bulldoze vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mollux: 448-528 (135.3 - 159.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Technician Arghonaut Icicle Spear (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cyclohm: 306-366 (72.8 - 87.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Cyclohm Discharge vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Arghonaut: 188-224 (45.4 - 54.1%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
[hide/]
 

G-Luke

Sugar, Spice and One For All
is a Community Contributoris a CAP Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnus
Now that Misty Surge is no longer a thing (thank god), I can see U-Turn being a more safer option

Name: Pirate Pivot
Move 1: U-Turn
Move 2: Knock Off
Move 3: Drain Punch / Circle Throw
Move 4: Recover
Ability: Unaware
Item: Rocky Helmet / Leftovers
EVs: 200 HP / 188 Def / 120 SpD
Nature: Impish

This set is generally supposed to be a pivot for very bulky teams, especially ones weak to Knock Off and / or set up. While that role is currently filled by Tapu Fini, certain traits allow Arghonaut to have an edge.

  • Access to Knock Off - Knock Off allows Argh to punish switchins by ridding them of their items.
  • U-Turn - Argh's most defining move for this set, U-Turn solidifies Arghonaut's pivot role by switching into attacks, forcing out threats while U-Turning into team mates.
  • Phazing - While Argh gets Roar, this set is incredibly passive if Taunted, so if Circle Throw is ran to abuse its phazing abilities, its not Taunt bait.
  • Unaware - Thanks to Unaware, Set up Sweepers are now mostly a non issue.
  • Recovery - This is its biggest niche over Fini, as Fini has no way of healing itself other than Leftovers, which can be easily exploited. Argh, however, has reliable recovery to make sure it can consistently do what it does throughout the match.
 

snake

is a Community Leaderis a Top CAP Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
CAP Co-Leader
Now that Misty Surge is no longer a thing (thank god), I can see U-Turn being a more safer option

Name: Pirate Pivot
Move 1: U-Turn
Move 2: Knock Off
Move 3: Drain Punch / Circle Throw
Move 4: Recover
Ability: Unaware
Item: Rocky Helmet / Leftovers
EVs: 200 HP / 188 Def / 120 SpD
Nature: Impish

This set is generally supposed to be a pivot for very bulky teams, especially ones weak to Knock Off and / or set up. While that role is currently filled by Tapu Fini, certain traits allow Arghonaut to have an edge.

  • Access to Knock Off - Knock Off allows Argh to punish switchins by ridding them of their items.
  • U-Turn - Argh's most defining move for this set, U-Turn solidifies Arghonaut's pivot role by switching into attacks, forcing out threats while U-Turning into team mates.
  • Phazing - While Argh gets Roar, this set is incredibly passive if Taunted, so if Circle Throw is ran to abuse its phazing abilities, its not Taunt bait.
  • Unaware - Thanks to Unaware, Set up Sweepers are now mostly a non issue.
  • Recovery - This is its biggest niche over Fini, as Fini has no way of healing itself other than Leftovers, which can be easily exploited. Argh, however, has reliable recovery to make sure it can consistently do what it does throughout the match.
I'm still not exactly sure why we need to talk about U-turn. U-turn would thoroughly outclass any utility move we want to give it. Circle Throw is a move I really want to see used on Argho, and even though they're different moves, they're both grabbing momentum for Arghonaut. Even if we don't have Misty Terrain to abuse with it, U-turn still not a good idea.
 

snake

is a Community Leaderis a Top CAP Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
CAP Co-Leader
Figured I would post something related to Technician since no one has seemed to comment on it after DK revealing it to be the winner instead of Misty Surge.


Name: Aye Aye Captain!
Move 1: Aqua Jet
Move 2: Storm Throw
Move 3: Earthquake / Mach Punch / Bulldoze
Move 4: Icicle Spear / Gunk Shot
Ability: Technician
Item: Choice Band
EVs: 200 HP / 252 Atk / 56 Spe
Nature: Adamant
  • Choice Band gives Arghonaut a respectable power boost, allowing it to plow through the common checks and counters it has.
  • 56 Speed EVs allow Arghonaut to outspeed fully invested, neutral natured base 50s while giving it as much bulk as possible.
  • Aqua Jet is a reliable priority that is also boosted by Technician, allowing Arghonaut to pick off weakened threats.
  • Storm Throw is a reliable wallbreaking STAB that gets boosted to 90 BP thanks to Technician while also blowing past setup sweepers that aren't Ghost-type thanks to the 100% critical hit rate.
  • Earthquake is strictly for hitting Mollux and Plasmanta, who otherwise wall Arghonaut completely.
  • That said, Mach Punch can be nice as Storm Throw 2HKOes specially defensive Mollux and Plasmanta and gives Arghonaut a secondary option for priority.
  • Icicle Spear provides Arghonaut with a reliable coverage move to nail Flying-types such as Tomohawk and Zapdos while also surprising Zygarde and Landorus-T.
  • Gunk Shot is still nice to nail Tapu Fini and Tapu Lele, who are otherwise a thorn in Arghonaut's side.
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Arghonaut Icicle Spear (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 276-330 (66.6 - 79.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Arghonaut Storm Throw vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Plasmanta on a critical hit: 139-164 (53 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Arghonaut Storm Throw vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mollux on a critical hit: 189-222 (57 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Arghonaut Icicle Spear (3 hits) vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Zapdos: 288-342 (75.1 - 89.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Arghonaut Storm Throw vs. 248 HP / 192 Def Tapu Fini on a critical hit: 122-144 (35.5 - 41.9%) -- 86.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Arghonaut Icicle Spear (3 hits) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Necturna: 360-426 (133.3 - 157.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Bulldoze is a move we should consider before we get to flavor stages. According to move-to-move guidelines, Pokemon with access to Earthquake should also have access to Bulldoze. However, on Arghonaut, Bulldoze becomes almost as powerful as Earthquake with the nasty effect to drop the opponent's Speed. This could provide a powerful utility option for Arghonaut that would probably always take the place of Earthquake, but is that something we want to address with this update? I'm going to think about this on my own and might come back to this in a few days, but I wanted to mention this option in the meantime.
 

Deck Knight

Blast Off At The Speed Of Light! That's Right!
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Top CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Top Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
Right, so I've been meaning to jump in a redirect this a little, DarkSlay seems to have been gone since the 17th, so here's my thought process.

I don't believe U-turn is a good fit for Arghonaut. Arghonaut has never really been a pivot, more of a stop to an opponent's strategy, and in many ways Circle Throw along with Unaware allows it to replicate HazeHawk in a manner of speaking, whereas Technician gives Arghonaut massive shuffling and support ability.

As far as Bulldoze, it would generally see more use over Earthquake on Technician sets simply because although Arghonaut is in a weird speed tier for it to work for itself, it does set up a pivot fairly well, especially with CAPs larger selection of viable 90-105 Base Spe Pokemon. I don't see anything unbalanced about it, but I do think it is more competitive than not, so it should definitely be slashed on a submitted set.

Icicle Spear is a great selection and Technician raises its minimum power to Ice Punch levels, making it an acceptable general move.

Storm Throw is cool but seems superfluous to Close Combat and Circle Throw, however if I can get in contact with DarkSlay we'll discuss perhaps polling it. It is slightly stronger than Close Combat because of the crit, but Close Combat's crits hit much harder.

Every other relevant move I think has been discussed. I do not think discussion on Bullet Punch needs to be reopened, as the main reason I suggested it was Misty Surge reset Terrain to make it immediately usable against Tapu Lele. Technician Aqua Jet and Mach Punch are already sufficiently good priority.
 

HeaLnDeaL

Let's Keep Fighting
is an Artistis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnus
Hello everyone, I will be stepping in for DarkSlay to finish up Arghonaut. I will not be a UL for other CAPs and discussion of what to do with DarkSlay's absence is still ongoing. Argonaut's stalled long enough, so I'll be Argho's UL from here on out. And as another reminder, Arghonaut now has Technician, not Misty Surge, due to fixing an error in vote counting made previously.

As per the results of the last poll, Arghonaut will learn Spikes and Close Combat but it will not learn Ice Hammer. Since we voted not to have Ice Hammer and Icicle Spear is a better Ice Hammer on Technician sets, I'm just going to bite the bullet and ban Icicle Spear too. If Deck wants to unban it, I will definitely allow him to step in and make that call but I don't see the point of allowing it when it's better than the Ice Hammer we just banned.

Previously, DarkSlay allowed Circle Throw back when we thought we were Misty Surge Argho. Since Circle Throw is affected by Technician, I am reopening discussion on it. Scald will be kept as a confirmed new move based on the ICC of this convo.

So far, discussion and votes have proven that Arghonaut will have the new moves listed below:
Scald
Spikes
Close Combat

Based on this thread's current ICC and on the CAP update principles (namely the one of conservation) I am banning the following moves from Arghonaut. These moves are not eligible for discussion anymore.
Ice Hammer
Icicle Spear
U-turn
Parting Shot
Rapid Spin
Defog

Particular moves I want discussion on are as follows (other moves not banned are certainly allowed to be discussed too):
Circle Throw
Storm Throw
Bulldoze

I still prefer to keep the following discussion moveset centric. Discussion on individual moves will be allowed to a moderate degree but as per this stage's rules, please try to relate everything back to a moveset if possible. In addition, for every moveset brought up I'd like the poster to try to explain how the new moves affect Arghonaut's role. I'm personally interested in more role-based discussion than just talking about generic power boosts to coverage options Arghonaut already has.
 
Name: Invincible Cyber Pirate
Move 1: Aqua Jet
Move 2: Recover
Move 3: Rock Tomb / Bulldoze
Move 4: Circle Throw
Ability: Technician
Item: Leftovers
EVs: 200 HP / 220 Atk / 88 SpD
Nature: Careful / Adamant

  • Aqua Jet is your Water type STAB move and also has priority. With Technician giving it 60 BP, it's a rather reliable move to use unless you face Tapu Lele.
  • Recover lets you last a lot longer than you would otherwise.
  • Rock Tomb and Bulldoze gives Arghonaut an interesting niche as a premier speed controller in the metagame with the addition of Technician and these two moves.
  • Circle Throw gives another niche to Arghonaut as a Technician Circle Throw user.
  • Careful nature is to better take Special Attacks, while Adamant can be used to increase power.
  • Leftovers is used to recover health over time when you need to use other moves.
 
Last edited:

snake

is a Community Leaderis a Top CAP Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
CAP Co-Leader
Name: Invincible Cyber Pirate
Move 1: Aqua Jet
Move 2: Recover
Move 3: Rock Tomb / Bulldoze
Move 4: Circle Throw
Ability: Technician
Item: Leftovers
EVs: 200 HP / 220 Atk / 88 SpD
Nature: Calm / Adamant

  • Aqua Jet is your Water type STAB move and also has priority. With Technician giving it 60 BP, it's a rather reliable move to use unless you face Tapu Lele.
  • Recover lets you last a lot longer than you would otherwise.
  • Rock Tomb and Bulldoze gives Arghonaut an interesting niche as a premier speed controller in the metagame with the addition of Technician and these two moves.
  • Circle Throw gives another niche to Arghonaut as a Technician Circle Throw user.
  • Calm nature is to better take Special Attacks, while Adamant can be used to increase power.
  • Leftovers is used to recover health over time when you need to use other moves.
I'm not totally enamored with this set. You're running Bulldoze / Rock Tomb, but your speed tier uninvested leaves you still outsped by lots of threats. It doesn't have to be max speed, but right now you can't catch even Base 95's on the switch out outspeed on the next turn. Aqua Jet and Circle Throw seem kinda thrown on there just to abuse Technician, imo pick one or the other and run something else like Gunk Shot. I don't think that EV spread from the calc works anymore, especially since you're not running Gunk Shot. Correct me if I'm wrong though.

Name: Offensive Speed Control
Move 1: Ice Punch
Move 2: Bulldoze / Rock Tomb
Move 3: Gunk Shot / Waterfall / Close Combat
Move 4: Recover
Ability: Technician
Item: Life Orb
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Adamant / Jolly

This set takes on Landorus-T and Zygarde better with Ice Punch. Bulldoze is definitely the better speed control move because it hits Mollux and Plasmanta, but Rock Tomb hits No Guard Aurumoth harder. Gunk Shot is preferred to hit Fairy-types like Clefable, Tapu Lele, and Kerfluffle. However, Waterfall is another option that gets STAB. Close Combat hits harder but overlaps coverage with its other moves. Recover for longevity.

This set takes advantage of Arghonaut's speed tier better. With Bulldoze, it can slow down switch-ins and either force a switch or KO them with a move the next turn. For example, max Speed with Adamant lets it outspeed -1 Kerfluffle and KO with Gunk Shot or Waterfall. Jolly is preferred if Rock Tomb is run, as Tapu Koko outspeeds max Speed Adamant, but not Jolly. If it seems like these Speed control moves and its coverage move options overlap a bit...it's because they do. Speed control moves should be pretty safe to use on switch-ins, and then you can use the appropriate move afterwards. OR, if you're taking too much LO damage, then go for the coverage moves.

This set lacks the longevity of defensive variants and, despite having Recover, I think it'll be a little hard pressed to use it, though it should generate quite a few free turns to gamble 50/50s with Recover.

vs. Kerfluffle (Gunk Shot on switch-in OR Bulldoze/Rock Tomb then Gunk Shot or Waterfall)
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Arghonaut Bulldoze vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kerfluffle: 142-168 (45.9 - 54.3%) -- 50.8% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Arghonaut Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kerfluffle: 377-445 (122 - 144%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Arghonaut Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kerfluffle: 188-224 (60.8 - 72.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

vs. Tapu Lele (Gunk Shot on switch-in OR Bulldoze/Rock Tomb twice)
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Arghonaut Bulldoze vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tapu Lele in Psychic Terrain: 157-186 (55.8 - 66.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Arghonaut Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tapu Lele: 419-494 (149.1 - 175.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

vs. Metagross-Mega (Bulldoze twice, once on switch-in)
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Arghonaut Bulldoze vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 177-208 (58.8 - 69.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

vs. Crucibelle-Mega (Bulldoze, Waterfall, or Rock Tomb + Waterfall)
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Arghonaut Rock Tomb vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Crucibelle-Mega: 159-187 (44.9 - 52.8%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Arghonaut Waterfall vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Crucibelle-Mega: 421-499 (118.9 - 140.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

vs. Aurumoth (Rock Tomb twice)
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Arghonaut Rock Tomb vs. 24 HP / 0 Def Aurumoth: 252-299 (68.6 - 81.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

vs. DD Zygarde (Bulldoze + Ice Punch or Ice Punch on the switch)
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Arghonaut Bulldoze vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 107-126 (29.9 - 35.2%) -- 24% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Arghonaut Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 354-421 (99.1 - 117.9%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
Not including SubCoil because you outspeed, but the same move combination works.

Bulldoze Calcs:
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Arghonaut Bulldoze vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mollux: 582-686 (175.8 - 207.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Arghonaut Bulldoze vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Plasmanta: 432-510 (164.8 - 194.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Arghonaut Bulldoze vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko in Electric Terrain: 286-338 (101.7 - 120.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Might add to the calc collection later.

So that's the set. Note that Bulldoze is the only new move on the set, so we're stuck with Rock Tomb no matter what. Personally I think the utility from Techician-boosted speed dropping moves is a neat niche for Techncian Arghonaut to capitalize on.
 
Last edited:
Name: Offensive Speed Control
Move 1: Ice Punch
Move 2: Bulldoze / Rock Tomb
Move 3: Gunk Shot / Waterfall
Move 4: Recover
Ability: Technician
Item: Life Orb
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Adamant / Jolly

This set takes on Landorus-T and Zygarde better with Ice Punch. Bulldoze is definitely the better speed control move because it hits Mollux and Plasmanta, but Rock Tomb hits No Guard Aurumoth harder. Gunk Shot is preferred to hit Fairy-types like Clefable, Tapu Lele, and Kerfluffle. However, Waterfall is another option that gets STAB. Close Combat hits harder but overlaps coverage with its other moves. Recover for longevity.

This set takes advantage of Arghonaut's speed tier better. With Bulldoze, it can slow down switch-ins and either force a switch or KO them with a move the next turn. For example, max Speed with Adamant lets it outspeed -1 Kerfluffle and KO with Gunk Shot or Waterfall. Jolly is preferred if Rock Tomb is run, as Tapu Koko outspeeds max Speed Adamant, but not Jolly. If it seems like these Speed control moves and its coverage move options overlap a bit...it's because they do. Speed control moves should be pretty safe to use on switch-ins, and then you can use the appropriate move afterwards. OR, if you're taking too much LO damage, then go for the coverage moves.

This set lacks the longevity of defensive variants and, despite having Recover, I think it'll be a little hard pressed to use it, though it should generate quite a few free turns to gamble 50/50s with Recover.

vs. Kerfluffle (Gunk Shot on switch-in OR Bulldoze/Rock Tomb then Gunk Shot or Waterfall)
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Arghonaut Bulldoze vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kerfluffle: 142-168 (45.9 - 54.3%) -- 50.8% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Arghonaut Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kerfluffle: 377-445 (122 - 144%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Arghonaut Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kerfluffle: 188-224 (60.8 - 72.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

vs. Tapu Lele (Gunk Shot on switch-in OR Bulldoze/Rock Tomb twice)
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Arghonaut Bulldoze vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tapu Lele in Psychic Terrain: 157-186 (55.8 - 66.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Arghonaut Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tapu Lele: 419-494 (149.1 - 175.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

vs. Metagross-Mega (Bulldoze twice, once on switch-in)
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Arghonaut Bulldoze vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 177-208 (58.8 - 69.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

vs. Crucibelle-Mega (Bulldoze, Waterfall, or Rock Tomb + Waterfall)
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Arghonaut Rock Tomb vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Crucibelle-Mega: 159-187 (44.9 - 52.8%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Arghonaut Waterfall vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Crucibelle-Mega: 421-499 (118.9 - 140.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

vs. Aurumoth (Rock Tomb twice)
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Arghonaut Rock Tomb vs. 24 HP / 0 Def Aurumoth: 252-299 (68.6 - 81.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

vs. DD Zygarde (Bulldoze + Ice Punch or Ice Punch on the switch)
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Arghonaut Bulldoze vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 107-126 (29.9 - 35.2%) -- 24% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Arghonaut Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 354-421 (99.1 - 117.9%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
Not including SubCoil because you outspeed, but the same move combination works.

Bulldoze Calcs:
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Arghonaut Bulldoze vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mollux: 582-686 (175.8 - 207.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Arghonaut Bulldoze vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Plasmanta: 432-510 (164.8 - 194.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Arghonaut Bulldoze vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko in Electric Terrain: 286-338 (101.7 - 120.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Might add to the calc collection later.

So that's the set. Note that Bulldoze is the only new move on the set, so we're stuck with Rock Tomb no matter what. Personally I think the utility from Techician-boosted speed dropping moves is a neat niche for Techncian Arghonaut to capitalize on.
I really like this set. It gives a mix of an offensive and defensive role that I attempted to accomplish with my set. The SpD EVs were to take SE hits better from special attackers, but I like this set better. I'm going to talk about the role that this set would play in the current metagame.

This set would give Arghonaut a role that simultaneously sticks to the roots of Arghonaut's concept and gives it a less passive role in battle while supporting the team. It's the perfect mix between offense and utility that we have been looking for! Here is the list of Pokemon listed as the biggest threats in the metagame that was listed at the start of the update and how it interacts with this set.

  1. Tomohawk
  2. Colossoil [Speed Control (Bulldoze only if AV set) + Ice Punch = 2HKO]
  3. Mega Metagross [See Snake's calcs, potentially banned soon]
  4. Tapu Lele [See Snake's calcs]
  5. Mollux [Bulldoze OHKOs]
  6. Landorus-T [Ice Punch likely OHKOs]
  7. Tapu Fini
  8. Pyroak (potentially good)
  9. Mega Crucibelle [See Snake's calcs]
  10. Cyclohm (Potentially good)
  11. Volkraken
  12. Ferrothorn [Potentially good with CC]
  13. Zygarde [See Snake's calcs]
  14. Greninja-Ash
  15. Cawmodore
  16. Fidgit (Potentially good)
  17. Aurumoth [Rock Tomb 2HKOs]
  18. Tapu Koko [See Snake's calcs]
  19. Pheromosa [BANNED]
  20. Kerfluffle [See Snake's calcs]
So as you can see, this set handles a nice majority of these top threats well. However, it still has checks and counters. It has Aurumoth if you don't bring Rock Tomb, Tapu Lele if you don't bring Gunk Shot, and has defensive checks and counters in Ferrothorn without CC and Tomohawk. I think that overall, this set will give Arghonaut a new lease on life that combines offensive power with utility while also sticking to its concept.



-1 252+ Atk Life Orb Arghonaut Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian: 302-359 (94.6 - 112.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Arghonaut Bulldoze vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Colossoil: 162-192 (39.8 - 47.1%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after burn damage
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Arghonaut Rock Tomb vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Colossoil: 81-96 (19.9 - 23.5%) -- 99.4% chance to 4HKO after burn damage
252+ Atk Life Orb Arghonaut Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Colossoil: 270-320 (66.3 - 78.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Arghonaut Bulldoze vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Colossoil: 156-185 (38.3 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Arghonaut Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Colossoil: 260-307 (63.8 - 75.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Arghonaut Rock Tomb vs. 24 HP / 0 Def Aurumoth: 252-299 (68.6 - 81.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

(I'm on mobile, so calcs aren't going to be present for the rest. Sorry.)
 
Last edited:

HeaLnDeaL

Let's Keep Fighting
is an Artistis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnus
Since discussion has died down, consider this your 24 hour warning to finish set proposals and competitive movepool discussion. While I still don't think we have oodles of discussion on Circle Throw and Bulldoze, we are pretty lacking on discussion of Storm Throw in particular.
 
Last edited:

snake

is a Community Leaderis a Top CAP Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
CAP Co-Leader
Name: Movepool Phaze Two
Move 1: Ice Punch
Move 2: Circle Throw
Move 3: Gunk Shot
Move 4: Recover
Ability: Technician
Item: Leftovers
EVs: 248 HP / 168 Atk / 92 SpD
Nature: Careful

Circle Throw shouldn't find itself on most Technician sets, as Close Combat is a MUCH better option. However, Circle Throw is neither broken nor useless on them. 168 Attack EVs allow you to spam Circle Throw against +0 Zygarde and consistently either break its subs, or force it out on a Coil. Ice Punch is here to save you if Zygarde boosts. The rest of the bulk is to allow you to tank special hits better such as Tapu Lele's Moonblast on Scarf sets. Arghonaut retaliates with Gunk Shot in this case. Recover lets Argho heal up and dive back into the fray.

vs. Zygarde (Circle Throw if at +0 and not behind a sub, if at +1 or behind a sub, Ice Punch is the better play)
168 Atk Technician Arghonaut Circle Throw vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 105-124 (25.1 - 29.7%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
168 Atk Arghonaut Ice Punch vs. +1 240 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 156-188 (37.4 - 45%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

vs. Tapu Lele
168 Atk Arghonaut Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tapu Lele: 274-324 (97.5 - 115.3%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Tapu Lele Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 92+ SpD Arghonaut: 258-306 (62.3 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Circle Throw isn't nearly as useful on Technician sets as it is on Unaware sets. The set I'm using could be bulkier, yes, but then you're missing out on the point of Technician Circle Throw: at least taking advantage of some of the extra power. More offensive with speed control like Bulldoze or Rock Tomb don't want to run Circle Throw because its negative priority and lower base power compared to Close Combat.

For starters, you want to phase out set up sweepers using Circle Throw, and you can't check them nearly as well as you could with Unaware:

+1 252 SpA Life Orb Aurumoth Psychic vs. 248 HP / 92+ SpD Arghonaut: 439-523 (106 - 126.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Arghonaut: 406-478 (98.3 - 115.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
+1 252 Atk Crucibelle-Mega Wood Hammer vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Arghonaut: 420-496 (101.6 - 120%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 SpA Volcarona Giga Drain vs. 248 HP / 92+ SpD Arghonaut: 210-248 (50.8 - 60%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (you risk a burn though)
+1 252 Atk Gyarados Bounce vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Arghonaut: 422-500 (102.1 - 121%) -- guaranteed OHKO

My point here is that Technician Circle Throw isn't just Unaware Circle Throw on steriods. While it does get more power from Technician, the extra power isn't worth the negative priority on naturally more offensive sets and phasing when you could be running a move with higher base power. We all agreed that Circle Throw on Unaware sets was fine. It didn't get polled, but Scald made it through, so Circle Throw should be a healthy addition to the update.
 
Last edited:

BP

Beers and Steers
is a Contributor to Smogon
I'm going to be completely honest here... Bulldoze and Circle Throw are moves that really just seem to connect to Arghonaut.

Bulldoze:
Bulldoze provides Arghonaut with another utility move which could be advantageous. This being said, I really don't see Bulldoze getting much usage when you have a superior move like Earthquake in its moveset. The only way I can see it being used in a move set is in snake_rattler's example set titled "Offensive Speed Control." I feel Bulldoze is only a Viable option because of Technician allowing Arghonaut more Versatility in today's metagame. Because of this versatility I feel that Arghonaut should in fact receive the move Bulldoze in its update.
Name: Offensive Speed Control
Move 1: Ice Punch
Move 2: Bulldoze / Rock Tomb
Move 3: Gunk Shot / Waterfall / Close Combat
Move 4: Recover
Ability: Technician
Item: Life Orb
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Adamant / Jolly


Circle Throw:
Circle Throw seems to be a better more stable alternative to the earlier mentioned U-turn. It not only gets the Technician boost but it forces out the opposing pokemon and replaces it with next Pokémon in line that has not fainted (if there is one). This can provide Arghonaut with a completely new strategy when using the move. I am Particularly a fan of nv's set called "Pegleg." It provides Arghonaut with a totally new way of using it which I think is spectacular. Because of the Circle Throw's usefulness too this Pokemon in particular this is why I think It should be added to its update.
Name: Pegleg
Move 1: Scald
Move 2: Circle Throw
Move 3: Spikes
Move 4: Recover
Ability: Unaware
Item: Leftovers
EVs: 200 HP / 204 Def / 104 SpD
Nature: Careful
 

nv

The Lost Age
is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Staff Alumnus
I already posted my sets above so I will just discuss each of the moves that are currently up for discussion.

Circle Throw
As snake_rattler said, Circle Throw wouldn't be a big issue due to Close Combat being much better on Technician sets (unless Storm Throw gets slated, but I doubt that :x), soCircle Throw strictly benefits Unaware sets in my opinion. While Circle Throw does get the Technician boost, it wouldn't be used all that often barring to specifically beat certain setup sweepers (as shown by snake) and even then Close Combat is still going to be proven to be the more effective STAB move of choice. Circle Throw on Unaware sets, however, becomes a very viable move to strictly force out setup sweepers that may be able to beat Arghonaut despite Unaware while also racking up potential entry hazard damage with its own self-setting Spikes.

Bulldoze
Bulldoze strictly follows the move-to-move guidelines that snake mentioned while also giving Arghonaut a nice utility option against some switch-ins since the -1 can force Plasmanta back out rather than it being able to revenge kill Arghonaut while overall Earthquake is still slightly powerful due to being 100 BP vs. 90 BP. While this may seem like such a short point, I feel it has been discussed enough that it is fine to add this to a potential poll.

I don't care enough about Storm Throw anymore to warrant trying to fight it since it is a pretty big upgrade from the already good Close Combat due to the guaranteed crit plus being 135 BP before STAB is applied, making it outclass Close Combat in more ways than one.
 
So I'm in favor of Bulldoze. That's the only move I have really vouched for. However, I would like to discuss the throws.

Circle Throw may seem a little scary at first. It's a phazing move affected by Technician, boosted to base 90 power. However, while seemingly a good move for Tech sets, it has negative priority. As such, Arghonaut needs to survive the turn to use it. The best time to use it on paper is when something is setting up. However, since you likely are running an offensive set, you likely will be blown away. As for bulky sets, Unaware is the best ability for those sets. Ignoring set up is a lot better than getting a boost to a single move that you would likely run, maybe two. Thusly, I think that Circle Throw will only buff Unaware sets, which helps even out the fact of the new ability getting so much love. I think Arghonaut should get Circle Throw.

Storm Throw
, on the other hand, is extremely borked. The fact that it becomes a base 90 power move that also always crits is crazy. It would lead to Band Storm Throw sets. It would decentralize the meta, but only to warp it around itself. THE WORLD WOULD END! AAAAAAAAAA

Huff

Anyways, my point is that if we add Storm Throw, we will just have to remove it when the next set of updates come by. Arghonaut should not get Storm Throw.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top