Resource SM OU Viability Ranking Thread

[volx757]

Volcarona A+ -> A

I'm in agreement that this mon was slightly over-hyped and the massive team support it requires has been ignored in that rise. It's not like being forced to make your scarfer 101+ is such a bad thing, and it's not like those scarfers are remotely useless outside of checking volcarona. But also there's no way volcarona is as good as ninja or zygod, and it's the only mon in A+ right now that isn't entirely self-sufficient. It looks very out of place there. IMO A+ should be reserved for mons that are super splashable, self-sufficient, and consistent. Volcarona doesn't really fit any of those descriptions. One game you'll grab +2 and sweep, another you'll be forced to come in on rocks and maybe fire off one hit before dying.

The same arguments can be made for it concerning set variety as can be made for other sweepers with good coverage. this is what makes volcarona so threatening; you counter w heatran and die to hp ground, you counter with pex and eat a psychic, etc. But hazards are the name of the game rn and really that along with it's required support should be enough to keep it out of A+.

 

[OrangeGuru]

But to me (it's my opinion remember!) I feel like Volcarona's place in the A+ rank is undeserved, and is only there due to two key factors. One being that its presence in the tier (i.e Forcing Teams to use Scarf Nihilego, Rock Slide / Stone Edge Garchomp ) has caused it to become overrated, as well as the fact that it suffers from New-Toy Syndrome.

Volcarona is a overhyped mon that has undeservingly ended up in the A+ rank, and should move down to the A rank.

I think you make some good points and I'm not stating an opinion on A+ / A for Volc (although I personally do think A+ is fine for its rising influence on the tier), but I want to know what you mean by "new-toy syndrome." Volcarona has been around since BW and its set hasn't drastically changed (QD + coverage moves / roost) aside from the addition of z-moves this generation. A ton of pokes can make great use out of a Z-Crystal, so I don't think that really counts as a "new toy" for Volcarona either.

 

[NewfieDude]

About the Volc drop, I agree with the points being put forward but isn't the whole reason why Volc is where it's at due to being able to pull off a bunch of different sets to get past usual checks like Z-psychic for toxapex, for example.

Is being revenge killed by 101+ scarfers really enough for it to warrant a drop? Or is that with the combination of it basically needing hazard control in order to like, not get butt fucked by sneaky pebbles a big of a reason for it to not be A+?

And I mean, you could always run focus sash so you don't get killed by scarfs in one hit.

I guess Hydreigon has new buddy in the "man I wish I had 102 speed" group

 

[Yoshi]

Yoshizilla the extra spd makes no difference in this specific scenario. Its a guaranteed 3HKO with Rocks. Switch into Moonblast and you are in danger of dropping to 2 more Moonblasts. So it still comes down to a 50 50 - if you Poison Jab they can switch out, and if you Pursuit while they stay in then you get KO'd by the following Moonblast.

This is not to mention that Pursuit does not OHKO when they switch either.

Actually you are right, the extra spdef doesnt make a difference, I guess I didn't precalc. Thanks for clearing that up lol. I guess the extra spdef just helps tank hits from other special attackers, as well as make sure you can survive 3 with rocks up.

 

[GMars]

Actually you are right, the extra spdef doesnt make a difference, I guess I didn't precalc. Thanks for clearing that up lol. I guess the extra spdef just helps tank hits from other special attackers, as well as make sure you can survive 3 with rocks up.

What bludz is saying is that you don't survive 3 with rocks up - a guaranteed 3hko means the 3rd moonblast is guaranteed to ko you. You only survive 2 with rocks up, which contributes to why alolan muk is ineffective

 

[Boomalacka]

Mega Venusaur B- ---> B+

Mega Venusaur being in the same viability rank as something like Omastar, especially in a tier filled with fairies kinda blows my mind. This thing can take on some of the hardest hitting mons in the game right now, including Tapu Bulu, Tapu Koko, Serperior, Keldeo, and Azumarill. It also can switch into every wall/bulkier mon in the game that isn't called Heatran and beat it 1v1. Mega Venusaur is one of the best checks to fairies in the entire game since they can't hit it with the common HP Ice or HP Fire. The versatility of Venusaur's sets is also why it should be ranked higher than B-. Offensive Mega Venusaur is something not a lot of people think about when building a team, making the combo of Dual Stab + HP Fire a big threat to many teams. Overall I think that it is just a mistake to have such a great mega in Mega Venusaur be placed in B-, and if moving it up to B+ seems like a stretch to people it should at least be B in my eyes.

 

[Riddikulusness]

I disagree with Volcarona dropping to A for a few reasons:

While yes, it does require team support to make a successful team with it, I believe it is more than worth it to fit removal on your team so you can use it successfully. It is by far the most influential sweeper in the tier, as it pretty much forces 101+ speed scarfers with rock coverage to be run on almost every team so you don't lose to Volc immediately. It finds plenty of set up opportunity against common Pokémon such as Celesteela, Ferrothorn, Tapu Fini, Magearna, and Mew, just to name a few. It has very little that can take it on defensively, with only Chansey, Mantine, and Tyranitar immediately coming to mind that can do so. Other Pokémon that want to check Volc risk getting hit by coverage moves. Heatran risks getting hit by HP Ground. Zygarde risks getting hit by HP Ice. Toxapex risks getting hit by a Shattered Psyche. A lot of the time, you have to sack a mon to safely send in your 101+ scarfer to attempt to revenge kill. If you do choose to send in your scarfer vs. it, you risk getting hit by a coverage move and dying/getting severely weakened by it. Garchomp, Nihilego, and Keldeo risk getting hit by HP Ice, HP Ground, and Giga Drain/Psychic on the switch, respectively. Some scarfers, like Nihilego and Keldeo, can even have trouble OHKO'ing Volc if it runs it's Charti Berry set, which can potentially gift Volc with another Quiver Dance. Yes, I know Volc can't run all of this at once, but unless you know its full set already, it is very risky since it CAN run these options. Volcarona even has a bulky set that can be used to check and set up on Pokémon such as Mawile and non-Stone Edge Tapu Bulu. Overall, Volcarona is a terrifying sweeper with fairly shaky counter-play in the current meta. Keep Volcarona in A+.

 

[IQMathlete]

Mega Venusaur B- ---> B+

Mega Venusaur being in the same viability rank as something like Omastar, especially in a tier filled with fairies kinda blows my mind. This thing can take on some of the hardest hitting mons in the game right now, including Tapu Bulu, Tapu Koko, Serperior, Keldeo, and Azumarill. It also can switch into every wall/bulkier mon in the game that isn't called Heatran and beat it 1v1. Mega Venusaur is one of the best checks to fairies in the entire game since they can't hit it with the common HP Ice or HP Fire. The versatility of Venusaur's sets is also why it should be ranked higher than B-. Offensive Mega Venusaur is something not a lot of people think about when building a team, making the combo of Dual Stab + HP Fire a big threat to many teams. Overall I think that it is just a mistake to have such a great mega in Mega Venusaur be placed in B-, and if moving it up to B+ seems like a stretch to people it should at least be B in my eyes.

Definitely not. While it is true that more fairies are around, there is a massive opportunity cost in using Mega Venu. There are a lot of really good Megas, and while the Mega slot argument can be used with basically every Mega ever, there is a fine line between being worth the slot and not. Amoonguss in particular has the same typing, but also with Regenerator and SPORE. With a lot of fairies comes a lot of steels, and Mega Venusaur can't really touch them (HP Fire hits like a paper towel) other than Mega Sciz. Offensive Mega Venusaur isn't bad, but it is rather weak and doesn't pose as much of a threat as you might expect. It is thought about when teambuilding, except when I think of a Grass type attacker I think of Bulu or Serperior, which are countered by mostly the same things as Venu (i.e. Poison/Steels). Psychic types are also everywhere: Alakazam, Tapu Lele, Medicham, etc. As for the hardest hitting mons that you listed, Koko can just pivot out and Azumarill isn't that common. I think Venu should just stay B-.

 

[Yoshi]

What bludz is saying is that you don't survive 3 with rocks up - a guaranteed 3hko means the 3rd moonblast is guaranteed to ko you. You only survive 2 with rocks up, which contributes to why alolan muk is ineffective

I didn't think of it that way... LOL. Honestly, I was just being stupid and thought I survived the third Moonblast for what ever reason.

 

[Toshiro46]

Mega Venusaur B- ---> B+

Mega Venusaur being in the same viability rank as something like Omastar, especially in a tier filled with fairies kinda blows my mind. This thing can take on some of the hardest hitting mons in the game right now, including Tapu Bulu, Tapu Koko, Serperior, Keldeo, and Azumarill. It also can switch into every wall/bulkier mon in the game that isn't called Heatran and beat it 1v1. Mega Venusaur is one of the best checks to fairies in the entire game since they can't hit it with the common HP Ice or HP Fire. The versatility of Venusaur's sets is also why it should be ranked higher than B-. Offensive Mega Venusaur is something not a lot of people think about when building a team, making the combo of Dual Stab + HP Fire a big threat to many teams. Overall I think that it is just a mistake to have such a great mega in Mega Venusaur be placed in B-, and if moving it up to B+ seems like a stretch to people it should at least be B in my eyes.

Amoonguss exists.

Regarding Buzzwole, all I could say is that being worse than heracross is NOT an argument. Opportunity cost of mega stone is defintely a thing and a niche.

If arguments are to be made it would about it dropping below a critical level that it is no longer functional.

Eh. Arguable top 3 Megas rn are Mawile, Hera, and Medicham. If you're running Hera, you weren't going to be running either of the others anyway. The mega slot argument doesn't hold as much water as it did when Megagross was in the tier.

RIDDIKULUS443

It totally has reliable counterplay; it's called stealth rock and it's on every team worth its salt. Every Volcarona team is simultaneously limited by automatically taking up 2 teamslots and by having to waste valuable turns defogging.

And these defoggers aren't super reliable. Fini has no reliable recovery and gets chunks taken out of it by most hazard setters. Starmie is paper thin and crucially outsped by Gren/Koko. Mew is cool but gets set up on by every special sweeper and every physical one with sub itself (assuming no taunt which is a fair assumption imo - has to run WoW, Roost, Defog - and doesn't want to get fucked by opposing taunts itself so stuff like knock off, earth power, or psychic is usually put in 4th slot) so it's got its own issues. Also it's not particularly fond of all the u turn shenanigans Lando (most common SR setter) gets up to. Scizor is rip.

Point is that hazard removal is still in a pretty bad place and Volc's rating should reflect that. It's not useless with SR up but it becomes a hell of a lot easier to revenge kill at half health, and if it's forced out it's game over.

 

[Boomalacka]

Amoonguss exists.


Eh. Arguable top 3 Megas rn are Mawile, Hera, and Medicham. If you're running Hera, you weren't going to be running either of the others anyway. The mega slot argument doesn't hold as much water as it did when Megagross was in the tier.

RIDDIKULUS443

It totally has reliable counterplay; it's called stealth rock and it's on every team worth its salt. Every Volcarona team is simultaneously limited by automatically taking up 2 teamslots and by having to waste valuable turns defogging.

And these defoggers aren't super reliable. Fini has no reliable recovery and gets chunks taken out of it by most hazard setters. Starmie is paper thin and crucially outsped by Gren/Koko. Mew is cool but gets set up on by every special sweeper and every physical one with sub itself (assuming no taunt which is a fair assumption imo - has to run WoW, Roost, Defog - and doesn't want to get fucked by opposing taunts itself so stuff like knock off, earth power, or psychic is usually put in 4th slot) so it's got its own issues. Also it's not particularly fond of all the u turn shenanigans Lando (most common SR setter) gets up to. Scizor is rip.

Point is that hazard removal is still in a pretty bad place and Volc's rating should reflect that. It's not useless with SR up but it becomes a hell of a lot easier to revenge kill at half health, and if it's forced out it's game over.

Yes Amoongus does exist, but can amoonguss run an offensive set? No, it can't. Mega Venusaur has a much better offensive presence than Amoonguss does, which doesn't mean it should be on the same level as Amoonguss because I do believe that it should be above Mega Venusaur. I think that Amoonguss maybe be a better check to a lot of fairies and such, but Mega Venusaur's versatility to be more than just a wall is why it should not be B-.

 

[Riddikulusness]

Amoonguss exists.


Eh. Arguable top 3 Megas rn are Mawile, Hera, and Medicham. If you're running Hera, you weren't going to be running either of the others anyway. The mega slot argument doesn't hold as much water as it did when Megagross was in the tier.

RIDDIKULUS443

It totally has reliable counterplay; it's called stealth rock and it's on every team worth its salt. Every Volcarona team is simultaneously limited by automatically taking up 2 teamslots and by having to waste valuable turns defogging.

And these defoggers aren't super reliable. Fini has no reliable recovery and gets chunks taken out of it by most hazard setters. Starmie is paper thin and crucially outsped by Gren/Koko. Mew is cool but gets set up on by every special sweeper and every physical one with sub itself (assuming no taunt which is a fair assumption imo - has to run WoW, Roost, Defog - and doesn't want to get fucked by opposing taunts itself so stuff like knock off, earth power, or psychic is usually put in 4th slot) so it's got its own issues. Also it's not particularly fond of all the u turn shenanigans Lando (most common SR setter) gets up to. Scizor is rip.

Point is that hazard removal is still in a pretty bad place and Volc's rating should reflect that. It's not useless with SR up but it becomes a hell of a lot easier to revenge kill at half health, and if it's forced out it's game over.

I understand that rocks are on every team, but like I said in my original post, it is completely worth it to run a "subpar" Pokemon to remove hazards so Volc can work at full potential. And its not like if Volc comes in on rocks once that its just dead immediately. If it gets a free switch in on something it can force out and set up on, it can just as easily win the game. Also, I'm not sure what you mean by "lando u-turn shenanigans". First of all, U-Turn does nothing to Volc. Second, Lando risks flame body burns by U-turning. Lastly, it can potentially give Volc free set up if you can predict it. Also, its not like Volcarona is a Lando switch in. And if you mean it forces Volcarona out and U-Turns on the switch, Lando does that to a lot of Pokemon anyways, so I'm not exactly sure how thats relevant to Volc specifically, as that can be problematic for a lot of other mons. I still believe Volcarona is an A+ threat, even with its Rocks problem because of its ability to easily set up on a lot of common Pokemon in the meta and its ability to clean easily in most games.

 

[p2]

can zyg be s already?

i'd like to bring up the points s18 posted after the vr update.

While saying "it lacks up front power" isn't the best argument, it was also noted how it's easy to play around and deal with Zygarde than it is with some other S-Rank Pokemon, namely Landorus-T. Tangrowth, Landorus-T, Zapdos and others are all common mons that prevent Zygarde from being extremely dominant. Landorus-T and Tangrowth both easily switch into to with relative safety and threaten it out with HP Ice. Fast Zapdos out paces it and 2HKOs with HP Ice before Zygarde 2HKOs, obviously Zapdos shouldn't directly come on it, but it's another obstacle for Zygarde.

i think these points are completely false because none of these mons are reliable stops to zyg, because one of the 2 scenarios happen: 1. zyg can muscle through them with different kinds of support which is extremely common with it such as tspikes or ashgren-esque things breaking into tang. 2. all these mons are made zygs bitch by dragonium sets anyway, so i don't see how they're super consistent like they're made out to be.
zapdos is a thorn in its side but given realistic scenarios, zygarde is gonna be in the advantageous position most of the team because you're never gonna revenge kill zapdos with zyg unless you know its not hp ice or its an absolute last resort play you gotta make, and if zapdos comes in after rocks, well sure you can bring zapdos down to 20% at the cost of beating zyg. i don't think this point is particularly good for either side of the argument because its pretty much entirely theory and not always realistic. it's basically the same thing as saying having a healthy thundy / koko can fuck up zyg honestly which sure i guess works?

Lastly the argument of it's versatility. Yes, Zygarde can run multiple sets but those aren't nearly as consistent as Choice Band. SubToxic lost a lot of effectiveness early-mid SPL when the tier adapted to it. Dragon Dance with Z-Outrage is a cool set and has good merit, but it's pretty obvious it's coming when Zygarde starts setting up when you have a Tangrowth or Landorus-T in the back, allowing you so bait and scout the Devastating Drake with a Steel/Fairy type. Double Dance (DD + Coil) is another set people often run, but how often are you able to get multiple boosts and stay healthy enough to sweep? It's usually not very often this happens, though I've seen it happened a few times, but it generally stems from misplays from the opposition. This really leaves one set that is consistent is Banded.

this is another bad point because it can go both ways, if you switch in order bait zygarde into using ddrake, what if it just sets up again as you switch, zygs now at +2 and now your scarfers can't touch it, and now even if you make it use up ddrake, stuff like tangs not gonna be far off ohko range from outrage. this is another argument that just goes both ways, and honestly i could see it more as a supporting case for zyg going up to s, it just shows some of the troubling scenarios it can cause in games and how much it can punish scouting its set / moves, especially if you try to handle it defensively.

anyway i don't think immediate power should be a reason to keep zyg out of s, because as it stands it's power level is perfectly fine, it's strong enough to eat into stall builds with ease, it's strong enough to give offense hell and it has the tools to give balance and bo teams hell too. zyg is also incredibly splashable in the meta right now and i'd even go as far as saying it's more splashable than lando-t, in terms of offensive sets as it puts immediate pressure like nothing else does from team preview. zyg should most definitely be s alongside lando

L

 

[Toshiro46]

Also, I'm not sure what you mean by "lando u-turn shenanigans". First of all, U-Turn does nothing to Volc. Second, Lando risks flame body burns by U-turning.

I am referring to Mew's dislike of u turns, which should be fairly apparent by the way I structured my post.

Lastly, it can potentially give Volc free set up if you can predict it.

So like basically every other mon in the game? Using "good predictions" as an argument for a ranking has never been a good idea.

The point isn't that Volcarona is somehow a subpar threat or anything less than possibly the most threatening mon in the tier. The point is that despite this virtue, it has severe drawbacks. Name one mon in A+ that takes up two teamslots by virtue of requiring a specific teammate. Hell, name one mon in A that requires such support. You can't, because those mons all require little to no support to be used effectively. Volcarona is the aberration.

 

[matthewc20090]

pretty much all of them. every mon has weaknesses and every mon needs teammates to patch up these weaknesses. celesteela needs heatran gone before it can click ssss and sweep. Zygarde needs tangrowth weakened for it to sweep. lando needs a switch in for stuff like keldeo and greninja. These are all very obvious facts, yet these pokemon still thrive. Similarily volc need defog, but that doesn't make it less viable.

 

[Riddikulusness]

I am referring to Mew's dislike of u turns, which should be fairly apparent by the way I structured my post.


So like basically every other mon in the game? Using "good predictions" as an argument for a ranking has never been a good idea.

The point isn't that Volcarona is somehow a subpar threat or anything less than possibly the most threatening mon in the tier. The point is that despite this virtue, it has severe drawbacks. Name one mon in A+ that takes up two teamslots by virtue of requiring a specific teammate. Hell, name one mon in A that requires such support. You can't, because those mons all require little to no support to be used effectively. Volcarona is the aberration.

My bad about the Lando Uturn thing. Read that whole thing wrong. While Volc is the only mon in A+ who needs removal to operate fully, Volc can do what it does better than any mon placed in the same rank or even above it. Besides, every mon needs some sort of support from teammates. For example, Lele needs Steels gone to break more efficiently. That doesnt make it any worse. I get these are two different things, but the idea is similar. This mon forces basically every team to run a 101+ scarfer or they pretty much autolose to this thing once it quivers up (which is very easy to do like ive said before). Its rocks weakness holds it back, sure, but even with that, it is by far the most threatening sweeper in the metagame and deserves A+ in my eyes. (PS, about the good predictions thing, that was referring to Lando u-turning out on it, which I completely misinterpreted. Disregard that part of my previous post).

 

[Toshiro46]

pretty much all of them. every mon has weaknesses and every mon needs teammates to patch up these weaknesses. celesteela needs heatran gone before it can click ssss and sweep. Zygarde needs tangrowth weakened for it to sweep. lando needs a switch in for stuff like keldeo and greninja. These are all very obvious facts, yet these pokemon still thrive. Similarily volc need defog, but that doesn't make it less viable.

There's a big difference between synergizing mons to complement each others' strengths and weaknesses and actually completely requiring a mon to have any hope of functioning effectively.

It really does make it less viable. Requiring a hazard remover on your team is a huge restraint on team building and arguing otherwise is laughable, especially in this meta. Maybe earlier on in the meta when Fini was everywhere and Phero was still speeding around it wasn't a big deal, but now it is. You can choose one of the two bad spinners or one of a few mediocre defoggers. It's bad.

 

[Muscle K]

I think you make some good points and I'm not stating an opinion on A+ / A for Volc (although I personally do think A+ is fine for its rising influence on the tier), but I want to know what you mean by "new-toy syndrome." Volcarona has been around since BW and its set hasn't drastically changed (QD + coverage moves / roost) aside from the addition of z-moves this generation. A ton of pokes can make great use out of a Z-Crystal, so I don't think that really counts as a "new toy" for Volcarona either.

Regarding that quote, i'm referring to the Psychium Z set - which shot up in usage as it was "revolutionary".

 

[Leo]

There's a big difference between synergizing mons to complement each others' strengths and weaknesses and actually completely requiring a mon to have any hope of functioning effectively.

It really does make it less viable. Requiring a hazard remover on your team is a huge restraint on team building and arguing otherwise is laughable, especially in this meta. Maybe earlier on in the meta when Fini was everywhere and Phero was still speeding around it wasn't a big deal, but now it is. You can choose one of the two bad spinners or one of a few mediocre defoggers. It's bad.

Actually, in this meta having a hazard remover in you team doesn't hinder you in a lot of scenarios. Yes, there are very few reliable defoggers but the rise of Spikes and Webs usually forces teams with a lot of grounded mons to have a defogger or otherwise these Spiker+Pivot+Breaker cores will absolutely demolish you so most of the time you'll be thankful you have decent counterplay to this. The rise of Mew further helps it because in the past you usually paired it with the mandatory Fini (which is still a good partner btw) and then the team kinda built itself and lead to a very straightforward team structure. Mew not only checks 2 prominent threats in the meta (Medicham and Mawile, ik Medi is overrated but having something to switch into it is always nice) but also reliable defogs vs a lot of the meta due to its raw bulk and access to recovery. I'm not implying that Volc's viablity relies on Mew, but the current state of hazard removal is being exagerated imo and it shouldn't be constantly brought up as an argument against it. Btw I've seen you throw the "clicking Defog is a waste of a turn" argument a couple of times now and while that logic does have some truth behind it you can't just ignore the fact that you also use a turn in setting them up which also gets rid of your momentum and also lets in a breaker of your opponent for free, in a real game scenario you usually set rocks up either when your opponent does as well (wont happen if they have a volc) or you have a favourable matchup vs the opposing mon on the field meaning youre essentially wasting the momentum you have at that moment to get it back later when your opponent Defogs, at least that's how I see it from my experience using Volc on the ladder

 

[Night Train Lane]

I think we should be focused less on the stealth rock issue, since we have things like mew, lati, Scizor, zap, etc. People keep jerking "removal is bad!!1!!!1" yeah we know that but that hasn't slowed volc down at all.

The better counter argument for volcarona are the amount of pokemon that can beat it regardless of sets. The combination of Heatran + Zygarde beats every set regardless of coverage option. Also, since Bug Buzz isn't a thing anymore, Tyranitar and Lati are able to 1v1 under most situations. Mantine has rose in usage and Chansey of course remains a Pokemon. Also being revenged by every scarfer etc etc, Charti is a thing but just say you were counter teamed and call them bad before you click x.

Even with this is still think it should be A+ with the amount of weight it adds to building a team.

 

[UltraBallz]

I think we should be focused less on the stealth rock issue, since we have things like mew, lati, Scizor, zap, etc. People keep jerking "removal is bad!!1!!!1" yeah we know that but that hasn't slowed volc down at all.

The better counter argument for volcarona are the amount of pokemon that can beat it regardless of sets. Heatran + Zygarde beats every set regardless of coverage option. Also, since Bug Buzz isn't a thing anymore, Tyranitar and Lati are able to 1v1 under most situations. Mantine has rose in usage and Chansey of course remains a Pokemon. Also being revenged by every scarfer etc etc, Charti is a thing but just say you were counter teamed and call them bad before you click x.

Even with this is still think it should be A+ with the amount of weight it adds to building a team.

That is not true tho because Volc nearly always carries either hp ground or hp ice so tran and zygarde are not really sturdy volc checks at all. charti beats a lot of the common scarfers as you mentioned. and while not common rn ttar and lati do lose to buzz. since the usage of both these mons is going up i wouldn't be surprised at all if some Volc sets start running that again. either way the point i've made before in defense of volc still stands; its list of true checks is super small because it can adjust its set to beat so many of the things it is supposed to have trouble with.


edit: if you meant the combination of zygarde and tran I get what you mean just misunderstood

 

[Scarf Nihilego]

That is not true tho because Volc nearly always carries either hp ground or hp ice so tran and zygarde are not really sturdy volc checks at all.

I think his point is that Volcarona can never carry both, so you can scout the HP.

 

[Indigo Plateau]

Yeah, I think Volc is fine where it is.

A lot of people have adapted + found new ways to get rid of hazards, and it's not like rocks being up automatically negate Volc from doing anything productive. You can always pair it up with Fini for good synergy, Starmie on more offensive builds, and so on.. but this has already been touched on, so I wanna focus on something more important:

Mega Heracross. From what I've seen, people have gone nuts with this because of its ability to be annoying vs BP, TR, and stall. It's definitely up there for the contender of best mega atm and a pain in the ass for defensive backbones, especially behind a sub or with an SD up. A ton of Heracross builds are extremely weak to offensive fires (check this yourself - go play ladder, and most often than not Heracross builds will fold to things like Char-Y), and this only contributes to Volc's sweeping abilities. I think this release - at least, until the meta settles down a bit more - is a big meta trend and enough to warrant Volc's A+. Not to mention like others before me that depending on what gains popularity, Volc can adapt. +1 Firium Z is still nuts strong, it can carry HP Ice/Ground, Psychium Z set is still very good, bug buzz can be a thing again, and bulky psychics for Mega Medi/Maw only help it.

Running both Zygarde + Heatran then leaves you vulnerable to double water cores (looking at Greninja + Keldeo), which is probably my favorite core to use due to the lack of water resists seen now.

Now, let me make some noms of my own. Won't really write much as I haven't played enough lately to, but wanted to hear people's thoughts.

A- --> B+
Don't really think this thing's as consistent as other things in A- such as Mega Zam, Mega Medi, Heracross, and Latios. Lacks recovery and things it's supposed to check, like Koko, can just u turn on the switch. Common meta trends in Zygarde, Heracross, the ever present Greninja, ton of hazards, and so on aren't kind.

A --> A-
Is this really supposed to be as good as Heracross, Medicham, Latios, Ttar, Scizor, and just about everything in A- ????

A --> A-
Don't think it merits the same rank as Keldeo as Keldeo is a better scarfer with the lack of water resists in a lot of teams. Lando is a thing and EQ is bad to be locked into with Zapdos, Heracross, and Celesteela, Tangrowth, etc.. Sitting above Nihilego and below Keldeo is a good fit.

A+ --> S
I think I mentioned this briefly (either on this thread or another), but basically, look at p2's post.

 

[Leo]

Yeah, I think Volc is fine where it is.

A lot of people have adapted + found new ways to get rid of hazards, and it's not like rocks being up automatically negate Volc from doing anything productive. You can always pair it up with Fini for good synergy, Starmie on more offensive builds, and so on.. but this has already been touched on, so I wanna focus on something more important:

Mega Heracross. From what I've seen, people have gone nuts with this because of its ability to be annoying vs BP, TR, and stall. It's definitely up there for the contender of best mega atm and a pain in the ass for defensive backbones, especially behind a sub or with an SD up. A ton of Heracross builds are extremely weak to offensive fires (check this yourself - go play ladder, and most often than not Heracross builds will fold to things like Char-Y), and this only contributes to Volc's sweeping abilities. I think this release - at least, until the meta settles down a bit more - is a big meta trend and enough to warrant Volc's A+. Not to mention like others before me that depending on what gains popularity, Volc can adapt. +1 Firium Z is still nuts strong, it can carry HP Ice/Ground, Psychium Z set is still very good, bug buzz can be a thing again, and bulky psychics for Mega Medi/Maw only help it.

Running both Zygarde + Heatran then leaves you vulnerable to double water cores (looking at Greninja + Keldeo), which is probably my favorite core to use due to the lack of water resists seen now.

Now, let me make some noms of my own. Won't really write much as I haven't played enough lately to, but wanted to hear people's thoughts.

A- --> B+
Don't really think this thing's as consistent as other things in A- such as Mega Zam, Mega Medi, Heracross, and Latios. Lacks recovery and things it's supposed to check, like Koko, can just u turn on the switch. Common meta trends in Zygarde, Heracross, the ever present Greninja, ton of hazards, and so on aren't kind.

A --> A-
Is this really supposed to be as good as Heracross, Medicham, Latios, Ttar, Scizor, and just about everything in A- ????

A --> A-
Don't think it merits the same rank as Keldeo as Keldeo is a better scarfer with the lack of water resists in a lot of teams. Lando is a thing and EQ is bad to be locked into with Zapdos, Heracross, and Celesteela, Tangrowth, etc.. Sitting above Nihilego and below Keldeo is a good fit.

A+ --> S
I think I mentioned this briefly (either on this thread or another), but basically, look at p2's post.

I disagree with a Garchomp drop. Most of your points against it are set on the assumption that it's ranked there solely for its Scarf set, when it's actually not its best set right now and is progressively dropping in usage and viability. While it's still a decent option for a revenge killer with some decent power, rock coverage for Volcarona and sometimes useful typing, its SD sets are the ones that have been gaining traction lately and why it most likely won't drop. Its ability to bop these blanket physical checks people usually run on their Offenses such as Lando-T, Mew, Mega Scizor, Tangorwth, Tapu Fini sometimes etc with either a +2 Life Orb Outrage/Earthquake or a Devastating Drake makes it a very consistent breaker and rocks setter, with enough bulk and speed to successfully get a SD up and start wreaking havoc. I think it's on the same level as the rest of the A mons, keep it there imo

 

[Reviloja753]

Buzzwole to C- (Agree)

Honestly, there are two things that make this thing C- to me. First of all, Mega Heracross offensively outclasses Buzzwole, as it has access to Swords Dance and Close Combat. The other thing is that Fairies and Psychics (especially Magearna and Lele) are on the rise, and there is nothing Buzzwole can do about it unless it lives a hit and then uses Poison Jab, which doesn't even effect Magearna. Also, it doesn't even live a STAB hit from Lele, so it wouldn't be able to handle it. The only way you could maybe deal with it is bring it in when Choiced into non-STAB, but even then it could always just switch when you do.

252 SpA Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 52 HP / 152 SpD Buzzwole in Psychic Terrain: 578-684 (157 - 185.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Tapu Lele Moonblast vs. 52 HP / 152 SpD Buzzwole: 408-482 (110.8 - 130.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

However, I do think this thing should stay ranked, at least for now. It has access to Beast Boost, one of the best abilities in the metagame, and can run multiple sets and multiple items- including Z-Moves. Those are things it actually has over Mega Hera, so it still has a niche somewhat.

Amoonguss to B+ / B

Now, the main thing with Amoonguss is that AV Tang outclasses it. Seeing how it just got a rise, It's hard to find a real reason to run this thing other than for Spore, which is as rare as it has ever been. Also, it has a niche in tackling Gren, but Gren is kind of shakier than before right now, and Gren usually runs Extrasensory nowadays, nullifying Amoonguss ASAP. Also, Lele's rise doesn't help things either. I didn't want to lower this thing too far down though, as it is a non-mega option to Mega Venu for its role and Spore isn't bad per se, so B or B- serves it well right now.