Resource SM OU Viability Ranking Thread

[NG Spencer]

I agree with koko up to A+

Koko has always been good in the meta, but now however, people are experimenting with new sets. Rather than using magnet, players are opting for z wild charge to bypass counters to the magnet set such as av mag and chansey. To me, koko has been A+ worthy for a while thanks to it's wide range of moves consisting of tbolt, wild charge, thunder, volt switch, dazzling gleam, hp fire, hp ice, u turn, brave bird, nature's madness, taunt and roost. What held it back was people using the same old magnet set and not breaking the mold. It has many viable items it can run that dictate what role it can fulfill on your team such as life orb, magnet, choice scarf, electrium z, even specs has seen usage. You can customize this mon to beat many would be checks thanks to it's movepool and versatility, here's a koko set I made to deal with shit that would annoying it:

Tapu Koko @ Life Orb
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 208 Atk / 108 SpA / 192 Spe
Naive Nature
- Wild Charge
- Dazzling Gleam
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Roost

208 Atk Life Orb Tapu Koko Wild Charge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey in Electric Terrain: 339-399 (48.2 - 56.7%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO
108 SpA Life Orb Tapu Koko Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 187-224 (53.1 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Speed is for gren btw, the team it's on has venu so I'm not worried much about opposing koko and maybe I'm dumb, but I can't think of anything else koko would need max speed for.

tl;dr now that other sets are being used, koko is more threatening and should rise.

 

[6ft Torbjorn]

Camerupt-M: C+ -> B-
Agree.
​

Idk what it is, I've always had a soft spot for MCamel - and to see it doing well in this meta pleases me a lot. I don't really have a lot to say that has not already been said, it's a superb balance breaker (I have my opinions on balance in this meta, but that's another topic *cough* drop Skarm *cough*); it's typing is notoriously good (hi there, PDon) and for it's role, Sheer Force couldn't be a better ability for it (which is what gives it it's niche here, alongside Nature Power). The omnipresence of the Tapus also help it a lot - which brings me to my main point: it's partnership with Bulu.

Now - before you say that it's petty reasoning that I base my argument off of the core of one mon: A) Here me out, and B) there's a reason the discussion point is only one subrank. With that said, I cannot stress enough how good MegaRupts' partnership with Tapu Bulu (and the other Tapus, for that matter - albeit to a lesser extent) is. Comboing NP with the Tapus and the auto-set terrain, and Mega Camerupt gets access to coverage it just never had before, luring a good chunk of it's remaining counters (Mantine; Gastrodon; Zygarde etc.) into it and heavily improving a lot of it's MUs.

For starters: here is a wall of calcs from the Mega Evolution thread that I compiled a while back regarding Sheer Force Energy Ball (oh, and TBolt/Moonblast higher up on the page, I suppose), where MRupt wasn't around. Of those calcs - you'll notice Dugtrio as the first 2 listed. It shouldn't take a rocket scientist to realize how Grassy Terrain tremendously improves it's MU with Duggy, and with this, Stall in general. It's able to bring it either down to it's Sash or outright kill it just by breathing on it, and can somewhat stall Groundium Z sets out of Substitutes (although this is trickier as Duggy can abuse GT for subs and stall it out) - these being the two common sets seen on stall atm. With Duggy having less incentive to stay in, what about Chansey? Well, keep in mind that this is a rocker that can 1v1 Sableye without issue, and can massacre Stall's main defogger (Skarmory) without even trying. Meanwhile, Tapu Bulu is able to assassinate (or at least solidly check) Chansey without much effort. My point is, while it's not something that outright beats stall, it's role is enough to where it can annoy both SPL and Ciele builds of stall.

Not to mention Bulu rose not too long ago (about a month or so ago), which only helps Camerupt's case in the long run. Speaking of which - Grassy Terrain does also give MCamel a bit of leftovers-esqe recovery, which helps it role as a tank greatly.

Other strengths it has in this meta? It's able to check forms of the omnipresent Magearna to varying degrees (the main reason it was ranked, I'm aware), or can abuse Trick Room from an ally Magearna (which is still one of the better TR setters rn, I'm sure) and punch a lot of holes from there. Maybe even act as anti-TR with MMaw favored over it, per chance?

Solid Rock is also... y'know... solid, as a pre-mega ability as well... (that was a terrible pun, I apologize...)
*ahem*, excuse me.

But yeah, that's basically it. Tl;dr:

• It's able to punch holes in balance builds.
• Sheer Force is an amazing ability to complement it's role, with extremely sparce switchins.
• It's synergy with the Tapus, one of the cornerstones of the OU metagame, is among the best (if not the best, I daresay).
• Can annoy Stall in certain ways, and remedies a lot of the problems with TR (imo).

A part of me wants to rank it higher then B-, but I'm lucky to see it got even this far so I'm not going to push my luck XD.

EDIT: Gary has clumsy fingers

 

[Muscle K]

Now here are some good discussion points :]

A - to B+: Agree.

Heracross is just not as good as it once was - Clefable now run max defence, Balance has re-emerged as one of the most prominent play-styles, which means the usage of 'mons such as phyiscally defensive Celesteela, Toxapex, the previously mentioned Clefable and Mega Venusaur have drastically increased in the past month, limiting Heracross' wall-breaking potential. Staying on the topic of increased usage,'mons that take advantage of Heracross' low speed including Charizard-Y, Pinsir, Latios, Tapu Koko and Landorus are becoming increasingly common.

To summarise, Heracross should be dropped because the meta is changing, with the increased usage of its checks and it's wallbreaking niche has slowly disappeared as the meta has changed. B + it is.

A to A - : Disagree.

Mew is just too splashable and diverse to drop. It is able to check the tier's biggest threats, easily spread status, remove hazards and be generally unpredictable.
Mew's biggest niche is as a blanket check to many of the tier's biggest threats, as well as being the tier's most consistent defogger.
While mew has slowly become more passive with 'mons Heatran and Volcarona seeing another increase in usage, allowing the stated to set up with ease, but the positives outweigh the negatives greatly.

B - to B : Agree
Gastrodon is just so good in the current meta - it checks some of the tier's biggest threats, including Magearna, Protean and Ash Greninja, Tapu Koko, Keldeo and Suicune, while also acting as the best rain counter in the tier. Due to its good natural bulk, it can easily spread status and cripple threats such as Tangrowth, Tyranitar, Tapu Bulu, Suicune and Kyurem on the switch.

B rank sounds more appropriate for Gastrodon along with the likes of Lopunny and Gallade.

A to A + : Agree
With the invention / discovery of the Electrium Z Wild Charge set, Koko has become one of the most pseudo-unpredictable 'mons in the tier, as it now has the option to run to run not only a special set, but also a mixed or physical set.
Koko is also one of the most influential 'mons in the tier - possessing an astounding 394 speed stat (or 130 base speed) as well as having great mixed attacking stats that are supported by a shallow but effective movepool.

In short, these traits allow Koko to be one of the tier's most effective cleaners - beating many of the tier's biggest offensive threats, including Protean Greninja, Charizard-Y, Mawile, Pinsir, Keldeo and non-boosted Volcarona, while also being able to beat a large amount of key defensive threats, such as Celesteela / Skarmory , Magearna, Heatran, Clefable, Toxapex, Chansey and Mantine to name some.
Overall, Tapu Koko is incredibly influential and is definately deserving of the A + Rank.

C + to B -: Agree
While i've already given my opinions on Camerupt, my knowledge of the GOAT has increased exponentially.
There are sooo many posts describing Camerupt and its role compression of Wallbreaker, Balance Breaker, Stall Breaker, Pivot and Tank, but there are very few mentions of it's synergy with terrains.

Mega Camerupt is a 'mon that greatly synergises with all terrains and the terrain setters.
Below is my input on camerupt, and with that being said, I hope you enjoy it.

Camerupt Terrain Viability rankings

• Grassy Terrain and Tapu Bulu function excellently together. Camerupt and Bulu form an incredibly powerful wallbreaking core that not only works offensively, but also defensively. Offensively, Camerupt and Bulu are able to weaken each other's checks. Bulu is able to break through 'mons such as Chansey, Tyranitar, Rotom and Fini, while Camerupt is able to break Celesteela / Skarmory, Magearna, Ferrothorn and Heatran. If Camerupt is running Nature Power, it is converted into Energy Ball - which is not only sheer force boosted, but is able to break through conventional checks such as Rotom-Wash, Gastrodon, Tapu Fini and Slowbro.

• Electric Terrain and Tapu Koko also function excellently. Similarly to Bulu, Koko is able to wear down Camel's checks and vice versa, but what makes Koko stand out as potential partners is the fact that Koko learns U-Turn (or volt switch, I guess) which allows Camerupt to break through Tapu Koko's checks, or dent its own checks for Koko to break through. Again, If Camerupt is carrying Nature Power, it is converted into a sheer force-boosted Thunderbolt, allowing it to once again break through checks such as Tapu Fini, Zapdos, Charizard-Y (if not carrying Rock Slide / Ancient Power), Gyarados / Mantine and have a more accurate move for hitting Tornadus.
• Misty Terrain and Tapu Fini form an incredible stallbreaking core that focuses on defensive synergy more that offensive. Fini and Camel can easily break through balanced and stall teams with little support (only really needing one another) to break. Fini acts as a pivot that not only prevents Toxic, but also can switch-in to most of Camel's offensive checks and vice versa. What's the most interesting and underrated factor of this core is the fact that Nature Power is converted into a sheer-force boosted Moonblast that can be used to hit unaware Zygarde, Garchomp, Latios, Keldeo and Gallade.
• Psychic Terrain and Tapu Lele do not work as effectively as the remaining cores, but both Camel and Lele break each other's checks with ease, and once again can form an incredibly powerful wallbreaking core.

I won't go into substitute sets, because it's pretty self-explainitory, but in short, everyone and their mother has posted about Mega Camel and now here's my input. For more Camel talk, just scroll up.

Thanks again for reading, constructive feedback is appreciated. :]

 

[BeardyBennett]

View attachment 86413 B - to B : Agree
Gastrodon is just so good in the current meta - it checks some of the tier's biggest threats, including Magearna, Protean and Ash Greninja, Tapu Koko, Keldeo and Suicune, while also acting as the best rain counter in the tier. Due to its good natural bulk, it can easily spread status and cripple threats such as Tangrowth, Tyranitar, Tapu Bulu, Suicune and Kyurem on the switch.

B rank sounds more appropriate for Gastrodon along with the likes of Lopunny and Gallade.

Gastrodon was a nom I forgot to mention in my post, but I agree, Gastrodon ---> B

While it doesn't appreciate being Toxic'd, not a lot of bulk does. And yes it has a quad weakness. However, that quad weakness is Grass, and there's not a lot of Grass offense running around. Very few Grass coverage moves, very rarely is HP Grass run on anything. And when something does have a Grass move (i.e. a Grass mon or something obvious like Zard-Y), Gastro isn't going to stay in nor switch-in. Being able to check the unholy offensive lords Magearna, the Grens, and Koko is huge as all are staples of this meta that rarely drop very far in usage/viability, if ever. And unlike things like Fini and Steela, which I get aren't really supposed to be used as blanket checks, Gastrodon has reliable recovery so it can keep coming in and keep soaking hits. Gastrodon is a super-solid OU mon, and I think is deserving of that solid B ranking.

Now if it got Stealth Rocks, we'd be talking about like A- or A rank

 

[Divine Retribution]

Camerupt-Mega to B-/B: Agree

Holy shit is this thing so much fun to use. It's already been stated by numerous others in the past couple pages why this thing deserves to keep rising (fantastic check to things like Gear and Koko, extremely hard to switch into, fantastic role compression, etc.) and I don't really have anything to add to that, but I definitely think this thing deserves a place in the Bs. It's such a slept on mon and it's great that it's finally getting the recognition it deserves. Plus, its Nature Power sets are scarily effective when paired with Bulu or Koko (or to a lesser extent Fini), allowing it to blow back otherwise solid switchins like Gastrodon, Mantine, etc.

No comments on other noms, I haven't been playing much mons recently so I don't really have an opinion, but I've been testing out a Mega Camel team and I am extremely impressed.

 

[Dreadfury]

Oh, right. Gastrodon. I felt like a hot topic was missing from here for a while.

I definitely support a rise to B (B+ maybe? That might be a bit much though). Without being too redundant, the only moves that threaten it tremendously (powerful Grass-type moves) come from things that Gastrodon has no business even staying in on in the first place. It checks some of the tier's best offensive threats, and the entire rain offense playstyle, unless those threats pack incredibly niche coverage options and a rise to B or even B+ would accurately reflect the influence of its niche in this tier.

 

[Marrrrrrrrrr]

B+ down to B/B-

The majority of my reasoning is the same as why I wanted Tapu Fini to drop from the A ranks, but its flaws are so large that not even B+ is a saving grace for it IMO. As every other bulky Water type rises, Tapu Fini goes down, because I don't think Tapu Fini is any better than Suicune, Alomomola or Gastrodon. What do all of those Pokemon have that Tapu Fini doesn't? Recovery. Those 3 Pokemon can repeatedly on whatever they're supposed to beat during a match. Tapu Fini, well, can't really. The most it can do to Landorus-Therian is prevent defensive sets from setting up Rocks. It outright LOSES to Flynium Z, the Lando set that's been gaining more traction lately, which Lando kills Tapu Fini with Supersonic Skystrike. The only Pokemon that Tapu Fini can reliably beat are Greninja-Ash and Keldeo, the latter which is taking a slight decline. And Tapu Fini isn't even THAT bulky either.

Misty Terrain I feel like is more of a hindrance than an asset. Don't get me wrong, shielding your team from status can be nice, but you know what isn't? Being unable to use Scald. Seriously, every other Water type in existence has no problem using Scald. Therefore Tapu Fini is extremely passive due to Moonblast and Nature's Madness being its only offensive options. Misty Terrain also hinders your team from using status moves, which is something that most stall teams really want to use.

And it's not like the metagame has exactly changed in Tapu Fini's favor, either. Tapu Bulu and Tapu Koko rising in viability don't help it one bit. Choice Band Zygarde with Iron Tail has become really good, and even then Tapu Fini can barely take a Band Thousand Arrows. The only thing that has changed for Tapu Fini to get better is the rise of Aurora Veil teams that Tapu Fini enjoys being on, but even then, Tapu Fini's lack of recovery may make you want to use something else.

Overall, every Pokemon in S through A- has some way of bypassing Tapu Fini bar Greninja-Ash, Keldeo, and technically Skarmory. Tapu Fini is just not a good Pokemon right now, and when you see all the success that Suicune, Alomomola and Gastrodon have, it makes it even worse. It's not better than any of them. Please drop it.

 

[6ft Torbjorn]

Small detail: Iron Tail is neutral vs Fini.

Other than that, I can't quite say I agree with a Fini Drop. Our meta lacks general defoggers, and IMO Fini is still one of the better and more splashable ones (alongside Zapdos/Latios and Mew), mostly thanks to it's typing.

I'll probably gather more thoughts and go into more detail later, but circumstances have changed on my end, and my internet has pissed itself. Carry on.

 

[Toshiro46]

B+ down to B/B-

The majority of my reasoning is the same as why I wanted Tapu Fini to drop from the A ranks, but its flaws are so large that not even B+ is a saving grace for it IMO. As every other bulky Water type rises, Tapu Fini goes down, because I don't think Tapu Fini is any better than Suicune, Alomomola or Gastrodon. What do all of those Pokemon have that Tapu Fini doesn't? Recovery. Those 3 Pokemon can repeatedly on whatever they're supposed to beat during a match. Tapu Fini, well, can't really. The most it can do to Landorus-Therian is prevent defensive sets from setting up Rocks. It outright LOSES to Flynium Z, the Lando set that's been gaining more traction lately, which Lando kills Tapu Fini with Supersonic Skystrike. The only Pokemon that Tapu Fini can reliably beat are Greninja-Ash and Keldeo, the latter which is taking a slight decline. And Tapu Fini isn't even THAT bulky either.

Misty Terrain I feel like is more of a hindrance than an asset. Don't get me wrong, shielding your team from status can be nice, but you know what isn't? Being unable to use Scald. Seriously, every other Water type in existence has no problem using Scald. Therefore Tapu Fini is extremely passive due to Moonblast and Nature's Madness being its only offensive options. Misty Terrain also hinders your team from using status moves, which is something that most stall teams really want to use.

And it's not like the metagame has exactly changed in Tapu Fini's favor, either. Tapu Bulu and Tapu Koko rising in viability don't help it one bit. Choice Band Zygarde with Iron Tail has become really good, and even then Tapu Fini can barely take a Band Thousand Arrows. The only thing that has changed for Tapu Fini to get better is the rise of Aurora Veil teams that Tapu Fini enjoys being on, but even then, Tapu Fini's lack of recovery may make you want to use something else.

Overall, every Pokemon in S through A- has some way of bypassing Tapu Fini bar Greninja-Ash, Keldeo, and technically Skarmory. Tapu Fini is just not a good Pokemon right now, and when you see all the success that Suicune, Alomomola and Gastrodon have, it makes it even worse. It's not better than any of them. Please drop it.

A few minor nitpicks with this post:

1. Suicune doesn't have any more recovery than Fini has.

2. Iron Tail on Zygarde is redundant in terms of effecting fini since it does neutral damage.

3. Fini should never be used on stall teams due to its lack of recovery, which makes your last point about misty terrain negatively affecting them moot (or even a point against dropping it, because misty terrain when facing stall is a huge boon to most teams).

Besides that, I agree.

It's outclassed as a defogger by Mew.

It's outclassed by (and overall less bulky than) Suicune as a bulky water-type cm sweeper - even on AV Teams where it *should* be pretty good.

It's mostly outclassed by Gastrodon as a rain check (having an immunity to Kingdra's Draco Meteor is its main advantage but not nearly as good as having an immunity to Kingdra's hydro pump and Thunder spam).

It's outclassed as a taunt-based stallbreaker by quite a few mons. Most notable one being Heatran.

One of the most prominent things it checks, Charizard X, has completely fallen. But more importantly, the stuff that runs right through it has been rising for some time now. Bulu and Koko are better than ever, Mega Venusaur just got a rise, and the best Megas are CharizardY and Pinsir, neither of which care much about it. Finally, the two best set up sweepers in the tier care nothing for it. Volcarona and Magearna both almost always run SE coverage for it and can even set up in its face if they don't have to worry about being chipped by nature's madness.

 

[banks]

b- -> b

Latias has seen a slight influx in usage recently, finding itself a place on these offensive teams which appreciate the Healing Wish to give mons like Magearna or Zygarde more longevity or fast Defogs so teammates don't get wore down so quickly, it does function pretty similarly to latios as a scarfer but it can fit on teams with Mega-Ttar, Suicune, Volc, teams that are notably more exploitable to hazards or Toxic Spikes, scarf foggers are usually the only and best way to remove them on offensive teams. Healing Wish is one of the main selling points, allowing you to play more aggressively early game without having to worry about hazards, enabling teammates like Ash-Gren to come in more often and spam stab attacks to get off battle bond, to only be fully healed by Healing Wish.

 

[Yoshi]

Mega Venusaur to A-/A

I don't really have to explain why this should be a thing that happens. Mega Venusaur is one of the best defensive Pokemon right now, even replacing Toxapex in the CelePex core. It's being spammed on the ladder by high level players for OLT, and walls a good amount of the tier, including popular Pokemon like Clefable and Greninja. Don't forget this Pokemon gets Synthesis too, which means it can recover it's lost health, along with using Giga Drain as well. It also carries Sludge Bomb and Earthquake, which is really nice coverage. Here are some Pokemon Mega Venusaur beats:

• Dugtrio (244 Atk Dugtrio Tectonic Rage (180 BP) vs. 248 HP / 164 Def Venusaur-Mega: 178-211 (49 - 58.1%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO)
• Greninja
• Clefable
• Heatran
• Landorus-Therian (If not z-move)
• Magearna

And, I'm sure there are many others. As you can see, Mega Venusaur beats a good majority of the major Pokemon in the tier, which is exactly why Mega Venusaur should be A-/A.

 

[strengthofheart]

Given the rise of Fire-types, is there any place for Chandelure on the VR in the C/C- range? Scarf Chandy is a hard counter to non-Earthquake Zard-Y and Dugtrio can only check Chandy if it's Focus Sash is still intact. Chandelure isn't completely useless outside of this niche as the raw power and coverage from Shadow Ball and Fire Blast makes it a difficult mon to switch in to (plus Trick for bulky foes). It's a specific niche, but Chandelure is the best offensive switch in to Zard-Y out there.

 

[Yasuo]

Mega Venusaur to A-/A

I don't really have to explain why this should be a thing that happens. Mega Venusaur is one of the best defensive Pokemon right now, even replacing Toxapex in the CelePex core. It's being spammed on the ladder by high level players for OLT, and walls a good amount of the tier, including popular Pokemon like Clefable and Greninja. Don't forget this Pokemon gets Synthesis too, which means it can recover it's lost health, along with using Giga Drain as well. It also carries Sludge Bomb and Earthquake, which is really nice coverage. Here are some Pokemon Mega Venusaur beats:

• Dugtrio (244 Atk Dugtrio Tectonic Rage (180 BP) vs. 248 HP / 164 Def Venusaur-Mega: 178-211 (49 - 58.1%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO)
• Greninja
• Clefable
• Heatran
• Landorus-Therian (If not z-move)
• Magearna

And, I'm sure there are many others. As you can see, Mega Venusaur beats a good majority of the major Pokemon in the tier, which is exactly why Mega Venusaur should be A-/A.

I don't agree with this nomination. Your post doesn't provide any points that we didn't know before. All you do is to list a couple of mons it beats and say that it gets good usage. Improve your points in this nomination or reject it, if you can't imo

 

[MegaStarUniverse]

I agree completely with Latias rising from to B- to B. What this pokemon can do can actually surprise some people. If your team has no pursuit trapper and relys on lots of special attackers to break teams then you are going to have trouble with scarf Latias. Scarf Latias can just come in and sponge attacks and roost it off. And being locked into roost is honestly not that bad because pursuit is not as common as it was in ORAS. Scarf Roost Latias does honestly not need Defog because paired with Spikes Ash-Greninja it can pressure teams to Defog. But you can run Defog if you really want.

Latias @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Psyshock
- Trick / Defog
- Roost

Here is a reply showing how good Scarf Roost Latias is with Spikes Specs Ash-Greninja - http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-305910

Turn 1 - Switching into keldeo and getting burned

Turn 12 - Latias switching into yawn from M-Camerupt but not getting effected because it took a burn from keldeo

Turn 17 - Switching into Keldeo

Turn 22 - Switching into Keldeo

Turn 30 - Switching into Keldeo

All this while Roosting damage off and cleaning late game. Latias is definitely not amazing but it has a good niche

 

[Yoshi]

I don't agree with this nomination. Your post doesn't provide any points that we didn't know before. All you do is to list a couple of mons it beats and say that it gets good usage. Improve your points in this nomination or reject it, if you can't imo

So, what you're saying is, because a Pokemon beats top tier threats, it's not a good enough point to have it rise to A-? Ok, that makes no sense haha. I don't understand why those things wouldn't warrant a rise in rank...

 

[Leo]

I agree completely with Latias rising from to B- to B. What this pokemon can do can actually surprise some people. If your team has no pursuit trapper and relys on lots of special attackers to break teams then you are going to have trouble with scarf Latias. Scarf Latias can just come in and sponge attacks and roost it off. And being locked into roost is honestly not that bad because pursuit is not as common as it was in ORAS. Scarf Roost Latias does honestly not need Defog because paired with Spikes Ash-Greninja it can pressure teams to Defog. But you can run Defog if you really want.

Latias @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Psyshock
- Trick / Defog
- Roost

Here is a reply showing how good Scarf Roost Latias is with Spikes Specs Ash-Greninja - http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-305910

Turn 1 - Switching into keldeo and getting burned

Turn 12 - Latias switching into yawn from M-Camerupt but not getting effected because it took a burn from keldeo

Turn 17 - Switching into Keldeo

Turn 22 - Switching into Keldeo

Turn 30 - Switching into Keldeo

All this while Roosting damage off and cleaning late game. Latias is definitely not amazing but it has a good niche

What's the point of using Latias instead of Latios if you're not running Healing Wish? The whole point of using Latias is giving up some power for Healing Wish, which is pretty useful for offensive teams that want to give their sweepers a second chance late game. And I think you're overhyping Roost Latias, being locked into a recovery move is completely awful because it just gives up momentum like nothing else and gives literally any wallbreaker a chance to punish you unless you make the double in the right turn, which is very unlikely and unreliable.

 

[Yasuo]

So, what you're saying is, because a Pokemon beats top tier threats, it's not a good enough point to have it rise to A-? Ok, that makes no sense haha. I don't understand why those things wouldn't warrant a rise in rank...

There are much more pokemon that beat top tier threads, but beating top tier threads without calcs, proper statements or replays isn't enough to warrant a rise of 2 subranks. Venusaur has moved up not long time ago, what made it better than it was 3 or 4 weeks before? Which metagame trends favor it?
You can't just say something beats 5-6 top threads and want something to go to A/A- rank with such a small amount of detail in your nomination

 

[Ropalme1914]

So, what you're saying is, because a Pokemon beats top tier threats, it's not a good enough point to have it rise to A-? Ok, that makes no sense haha. I don't understand why those things wouldn't warrant a rise in rank...

He's saying that because most things that you provided are things that we already know, like saying it has Synthesis. A point for it to rise, for example, would be the drop on Mega Heracross usage and viability recently (this is just example, i did not check Heracross usage or even saying that it would be a point for it to raise), because that's something that is different from when he was B+ that helped him.

 

[Leo]

Mega Venusaur to A-/A

I don't really have to explain why this should be a thing that happens. Mega Venusaur is one of the best defensive Pokemon right now, even replacing Toxapex in the CelePex core. It's being spammed on the ladder by high level players for OLT, and walls a good amount of the tier, including popular Pokemon like Clefable and Greninja. Don't forget this Pokemon gets Synthesis too, which means it can recover it's lost health, along with using Giga Drain as well. It also carries Sludge Bomb and Earthquake, which is really nice coverage. Here are some Pokemon Mega Venusaur beats:

• Dugtrio (244 Atk Dugtrio Tectonic Rage (180 BP) vs. 248 HP / 164 Def Venusaur-Mega: 178-211 (49 - 58.1%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO)
• Greninja
• Clefable
• Heatran
• Landorus-Therian (If not z-move)
• Magearna

And, I'm sure there are many others. As you can see, Mega Venusaur beats a good majority of the major Pokemon in the tier, which is exactly why Mega Venusaur should be A-/A.

While I do agree that Venusaur is a cool mon rn, I think you're exagerating its defensive capabilities a bit. Going through your list of mons it beats, Dugtrio can't trap it but it can't trap any other bulky Grass-type either so it isnt that important considering how much competition Venu faces from Tangrowth. Both forms of Greninja don't really lose to it, as Protean can just use Extrasensory on it and Ash can take advantage of the lack of Regenerator by using Spikes on the switch until Dark Pulse does too much to the frog. In practice, it can't beat it. Most if not all offensive Landos are Z-Move or eplate so it loses to them most of the time unless theyre defensive in which case you dont need to wall it at all. Heatran also beats it by PP Stalling its Synthesises with Earth Powers and Magma Storm residual damage. I don't think Venusaur deserves to be in the A rankings tbh

 

[MegaStarUniverse]

What's the point of using Latias instead of Latios if you're not running Healing Wish? The whole point of using Latias is giving up some power for Healing Wish, which is pretty useful for offensive teams that want to give their sweepers a second chance late game. And I think you're overhyping Roost Latias, being locked into a recovery move is completely awful because it just gives up momentum like nothing else and gives literally any wallbreaker a chance to punish you unless you make the double in the right turn, which is very unlikely and unreliable.

Latios can't switch into attacks better then Latias. you will just get worn down way faster while Latias stays healthy.

"What's the point of using Latias instead of Latios if you're not running Healing Wish"

Well first off Healing Wish is not the only thing that Latias has over Latios. Latias can do the same role as Latios while only giving away a little bit of offensive presence. Latios also is not even strong enough to justify using it over Latias 100% of the time. some teams need Latios and some teams need Latias more. If it was up to me i would put Latias and Latios in the same rank but thats just my opinion so whatever. But i stand by my point Latias should at least be B rank alongside stuff like Jirachi, Serperior, Terrakion etc.

 

[Mr.Goxel]

Latios can't switch into attacks better then Latias. you will just get worn down way faster while Latias stays healthy.

"What's the point of using Latias instead of Latios if you're not running Healing Wish"

Well first off Healing Wish is not the only thing that Latias has over Latios. Latias can do the same role as Latios while only giving away a little bit of offensive presence. Latios also is not even strong enough to justify using it over Latias 100% of the time. some teams need Latios and some teams need Latias more. If it was up to me i would put Latias and Latios in the same rank but thats just my opinion so whatever. But i stand by my point Latias should at least be B rank alongside stuff like Jirachi, Serperior, Terrakion etc.

This seems more like personal bias rather than valid arguments. Latios does more damage which is just better. Latias cannot stay healthy better than Latios simply because they both will always switch into resisted moves if offensive. So if you use Latias as an offensive Pokemon it can switch in the same amount as latios while doing less damage. Latias' only niche is having an ok defensive set that latios can't use.

 

[Vert]

lopunny → b+

sleeper mega at the moment that has seen continuous tour success and now ladder success. people ignore lopunny because they look at it on paper but it is utter bitch to deal with when spikes are on the field. spikes can be and are used on pretty much every good team. lopunny is one of the best pokemon at abusing hazards due to its high speed and ability to threaten a lot of top tier offensive threats. it can choose whether it wants to invalidate offense with a fake out + quick attack set or annoy defensive teams with power-up punch + encore.

tangrowth → a-

tangrowth is very easy to pressure. pokemon it normally counters such as ash-greninja and keldeo tend to set up a spike or burn it. tapu koko are commonly running physical which means u-turn is chipping 30% + stealth rock / possible spikes (like i said almost every non-stall team can afford to use if not already using spikes). it's bait to a fuck ton of aurora veil sweepers and its not even a consistent zygarde check without a more niche physically defensive set. tangrowth is also easy to take advantage with pokemon such as mega charizard y and kyurem-b and it is very easy to wall with common pokemon such as clefable and zapdos. it is deadweight in stall matchups and in a real game scenario it often just sits there clicks knock off. ferrothorn is the superior grass-type in the tier and there needs to be a subrank differential between them.

heracross → b+

heracross is another sleeper mega at the moment, but it should not be on the same rank as tyranitar and medicham, which bring so much as megas right now. it does pressure the fuck out of stall and aurora veil which makes it good enough to be along side pokemon such as suicune and mega venusaur.

i would lean towards mew staying. i haven't seen much that makes it worse than it is before. if anything it got better since people are experimenting with its wide af movepool: volt switch, knock off, 2 attacks defogger, whirlwind, genesis supernova,...you should not be dropping the best defog user in the tier when hazards are this dominant lol!

manaphy → b-
conkeldurr → c- rank
chandelure → c- rank
mega gardevoir, porygon-z, omastar, kabutops → c-
magneton, mega beedrill → ur

manaphy and conkeldurr are savages under the veil and basically have no defensive counterplay. chandelure is a different dynamic to gengar since fire-type stab is a blessing in the current metagame.

the rest of the nominations are self-explanatory. mega gardevoir is actually a shitty tapu lele. porygon-z was already trash but sticky web got worse which makes it a digimon. omastar and kabutops are hard to justify using on a serious rain team. jamvad hasn't come with the shit and magneton cannot trap celesteela which is trash. mega beedrill is just bad in a landorus-t and spikes infested metagame.

edit: i forgot to say chandelure is an offensive zardy check which is hard to find right now

 

[Marrrrrrrrrr]

mega beedrill is just bad in a landorus-t and spikes infested metagame.

This really pisses me off. "(Blatantly lists flaws that the Pokemon has) This Pokemon has no use whatsoever!" is an argument that too many people use. Literally 50% of your nomination is for Spikes fucking existing, when they're not even that omnipresent.

Mega Beedrill is the fastest physical attacker in the tier bar Mega Aerodactyl, and Mega Beedrill has plenty of things going for it that Mega Aerodactyl doesn't, mainly being U-turn and more power in STABs. While being weak to Rocks isn't the best trait for a U-turn user to have, this doesn't automatically make it worse totally unusable, as it provides the fastest and one of the most powerful U-turns in the tier. How is Mega Beedrill worse than it was in ORAS (back when it was ranked) when Mega Beedrill is literally better than it was in ORAS? The Mega Evolution buff means that it can run Drill Run and Knock Off in the same slot, which is large. And yes, it is possible to wall, but it's not hard walled by so many Pokemon that it makes its niche useless unlike Victini. Knock Off is a great asset for Mega Beedrill, as it cripples most of the Pokemon that bother Mega Beedrill. Due to its speed, Knock Off followed by U-turn works on basically any Pokemon (and even then Mega Alakazam, one of the two things that's faster than it, isn't switching in on it at all) that's not named Landorus-Therian, Garchomp or Ferrothorn. While Landorus-Therian hard walls it, Terrakion and Mega Charizard X are also walled by these Pokemon, and that doesn't make them completely unviable, in fact, they're not even in the C ranks. And yes, there's also Mega Charizard Y, Celesteela, Garchomp, Ferrothorn and the like, it still beats a good amount of Clefable, all 4 of the Tapus, Latios, Tangrowth, and more, which should be enough. Mega Beedrill usually won't be sticking around more than 1 turn anyway, which is where its niche resides in, U-turn. It's not supposed to beat a lot of Pokemon, it's supposed to provide team support with the fastest and one of the most powerful U-turns in the tier. For months, people have been calling Mega Beedrill unviable without bothering to look into it at all, and it infuriates me. Every time someone talks about Mega Beedrill, they just talk only about its flaws, and completely ignore what makes it worth using. I've had enough, and this is why I'm glad that this Pokemon got unblacklisted. And please, before you go immediately disagreeing with this, take everything that I said to heart before immediately just pointing out its flaws like people have in the past.

 

[diminom]

This really pisses me off. "(Blatantly lists flaws that the Pokemon has) This Pokemon has no use whatsoever!" is an argument that too many people use. Literally 50% of your nomination is for Spikes fucking existing, when they're not even that omnipresent.

Mega Beedrill is the fastest physical attacker in the tier bar Mega Aerodactyl, and Mega Beedrill has plenty of things going for it that Mega Aerodactyl doesn't, mainly being U-turn and more power in STABs. While being weak to Rocks isn't the best trait for a U-turn user to have, this doesn't automatically make it worse totally unusable, as it provides the fastest and one of the most powerful U-turns in the tier. How is Mega Beedrill worse than it was in ORAS (back when it was ranked) when Mega Beedrill is literally better than it was in ORAS? The Mega Evolution buff means that it can run Drill Run and Knock Off in the same slot, which is large. And yes, it is possible to wall, but it's not hard walled by so many Pokemon that it makes its niche useless unlike Victini. Knock Off is a great asset for Mega Beedrill, as it cripples most of the Pokemon that bother Mega Beedrill. Due to its speed, Knock Off followed by U-turn works on basically any Pokemon (and even then Mega Alakazam, one of the two things that's faster than it, isn't switching in on it at all) that's not named Landorus-Therian, Garchomp or Ferrothorn. While Landorus-Therian hard walls it, Terrakion and Mega Charizard X are also walled by these Pokemon, and that doesn't make them completely unviable, in fact, they're not even in the C ranks. And yes, there's also Mega Charizard Y, Celesteela, Garchomp, Ferrothorn and the like, it still beats a good amount of Clefable, all 4 of the Tapus, Latios, Tangrowth, and more, which should be enough. Mega Beedrill usually won't be sticking around more than 1 turn anyway, which is where its niche resides in, U-turn. It's not supposed to beat a lot of Pokemon, it's supposed to provide team support with the fastest and one of the most powerful U-turns in the tier. For months, people have been calling Mega Beedrill unviable without bothering to look into it at all, and it infuriates me. Every time someone talks about Mega Beedrill, they just talk only about its flaws, and completely ignore what makes it worth using. I've had enough, and this is why I'm glad that this Pokemon got unblacklisted. And please, before you go immediately disagreeing with this, take everything that I said to heart before immediately just pointing out its flaws like people have in the past.

Beedrill's main niche which is voltturn, its bad at doing because of the massive amount of spikes in the meta and its weakness to rocks. The mon fails at its main niche. Yeah it gets stab u-turn and can OHKO most fairies in the tier, but what good does that do you if you are just getting whittled down so quickly. beedrill can't even touch lando, which 40% of all teams run, and it loses to so many walls. Maybe against hyper offense its decent, but so many other mons do it better, and versus hyper offense voltturn isn't even that good. Also beedrill heavily relies on its own spikes and rocks to get kills and u-turn but the vast majority of the hazard removable in the tier is defog, which means beedrill can't really get many hazards of its own up, which voltturn teams need to survive. I like beedrill, and I personally don't like seeing the mon this bad in the meta right now (granted C- is a really low rank, but don't even think it deserves that), but the meta just really is not favorable to beedrill atm.

 

[Vert]

wait a second. let's look at c-. uxie and shuckle are faces of trick room and sticky web. araquanid and empoleon have seen success, and talonflame, victini, and necrozma are frightening niche 'mons that have seen use on ladder. these are all in c- that have seen success. beedrill hasn't done shit in any tour games or ladder.

beedrill is just bad. it can't threaten any team because of the dominance of landorus-t, toxapex, and celesteela. stealth rock and spikes make this pokemon useless. you are removing hazards for a momentum-based pokemon which is stupid and also once beedrill comes in, then what? u-turn out like a pussy? scizor does the same thing, so does other pokemon that bring much more to the table like tapu koko and rotom-w. generally on voltturn you use a frightening mega like medicham and heracross. if you are using beedrill, you don't get a mega wallbreaker.

just because it was ranked in oras doesn't mean it is good in sm. it was actually better in oras because it paired so well with pokemon such as specs keldeo and how solid other voltturn pokemon such as rotom-w and scarf landorus-t were. it also defeated the omnipresent clefable and offensive landorus-t wasn't low key broken in oras until we get z-moves this gen. in sm, the speed buff doesn't mean anything considering how bulky the metagame is.

spikes are also omnipresent so idk what you are trying to say. if they aren't used on a team, you are playing a more defensive team or sometype of ho in webs, veil, or birdspam, all of which beedrill is shit at beating.

niche megas out my ass. please stop defending such irrelevent pokemon. while i'm at it Marrrrrrrrrr i'm going to respond to your tapu fini nomination since that nomination makes 0 fucking sense. tapu fini appreciates the lack of bloom doom heatran and is still a solid pokemon due to its ability to pivot into most stall teams which is hard for bulky offense. it also checks ash greninja and is a safe pivot into mew. and you're telling me that tapu fini should be ranked alongside nidoking lmfao.

tl;dr stop fucking theorymoning. your beedrill defense argument and more recent tapu fini nomination were highly uneducated. i'm not going to respond past this because you have a history of derailing this thread.