I think Hoopa-U has improved, as now it can smash holes in defensive teams much more easily without having to worry about being trapped. If its Specs set gets a free switch in vs stall, it's pretty much a case of "who do you want to sack?" Psyshock wrecks Chansey, Venusaur-Mega and Toxapex; Thunderbolt wrecks Skarmory and Celesteela; Dark Pulse 2HKOes Sableye-Mega on the switch; Focus Blast wrecks Ferrothorn. I'm not making a formal nomination, I think it's too early to say for certain at this stage, but it does seem like it got better.
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Resource SM OU Viability Ranking Thread
- Thread starter Gary
- Start date
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Deleted User 400951
Banned deucer.
Well, there is one mon that should go up for sure from my experience on the suspect ladder:
Tyranitar to A
This is now absolutely insane. It's been getting better for a while now - Dual Defog stall has always has trouble vs it, Pex/Celes/Venu never had any switch-ins to its moves - but now with Dugtrio gone, it's time it rose. CB Ttar can absolutely run over the vast majority of stall builds - especially that Dual Defog stall, which is the premier stall in this meta I've found - and can occasionally fit on them with Pursuit trapping (it's bulkier than Weavile and more powerful too, as its advantages). It was always borderline A to me but this has pushed it into the ranks of A for me.
I'm also gonna still support Volcarona down to A. Dugtrio being banned really hurt this, as what was once versatility is now simply 4MSS. If it doesn't run HP Ground, it now has no way around Heatran, which is extraordinarily prominent in this metagame (even so with Dugtrio, but now even more). Without Psychium Z, it has no way around Toxapex, which also benefitted from the AT ban. Without Giga Drain, any other bulky water will wall it. All of its counters are more prominent in the current metagame, and without the right move, Volcarona is simply deadweight in the MU against them. It's thus becoming less and less consistent at sweeping, and deserves the drop to A.
Nowadays, it's relying on 50/50s - click Iron Head or Sucker/Knock. If it loses the 50/50, it dies. This is making it less consistent in this metagame and as such, it should drop.
EDIT: Also backing Kyurem-Black to A. Pex/Celes/Venu is just steamrolled by this, and the LO set is beginning to rise back up into prominence as it's a rather versatile set. It pairs extremely well with Koko, which is absolutely fantastic in thie current meta. Dual Defog stall also has tons of issues with Icium Z, which can break through the majority of mons on the build. It's never deadweight vs offense tho, being rather bulky and Dragon letting it check a large amount of mons on it.
Also, just gonna say that while Hoopa-U did get better, I'm not sure of it rising. Dark/Psychic just really sucks in this metagame, with Weavile still trapping it regardless and CB Ttar doing the same if it's locked into the wrong move. It's super strong vs stall and all but it's still as bad as ever vs offense, only slightly better with Dugtrio being gone. Not worthy of a rise imo.
In addition, don't drop Skarmory. This is honestly a hasty nom made just because Dugtrio's gone, but is absolutely wrong. Stall did take a hit, yes, but is still decently effective and common. Skarmory is a cornerstone on pretty much every stall team out there. In particular, it's vital to non-SPL stall, and considering the fact that SPL stall was hit the hardest by the AT ban, and the other stall builds are still decent, this shouldn't drop at all.
I can also get behind a Weavile rise. In general B+ is kind of messy rn so I'll address that in a later post.
Tyranitar to A
This is now absolutely insane. It's been getting better for a while now - Dual Defog stall has always has trouble vs it, Pex/Celes/Venu never had any switch-ins to its moves - but now with Dugtrio gone, it's time it rose. CB Ttar can absolutely run over the vast majority of stall builds - especially that Dual Defog stall, which is the premier stall in this meta I've found - and can occasionally fit on them with Pursuit trapping (it's bulkier than Weavile and more powerful too, as its advantages). It was always borderline A to me but this has pushed it into the ranks of A for me.
I'm also gonna still support Volcarona down to A. Dugtrio being banned really hurt this, as what was once versatility is now simply 4MSS. If it doesn't run HP Ground, it now has no way around Heatran, which is extraordinarily prominent in this metagame (even so with Dugtrio, but now even more). Without Psychium Z, it has no way around Toxapex, which also benefitted from the AT ban. Without Giga Drain, any other bulky water will wall it. All of its counters are more prominent in the current metagame, and without the right move, Volcarona is simply deadweight in the MU against them. It's thus becoming less and less consistent at sweeping, and deserves the drop to A.
I should have gone over how the trends are bad for it in detail, you're right. Kyurem oftentimes is holding a Z-Crystal and thus can switch into Knock Off, where it straight-up kills from there. In addition, the 3 Attacks + Roost set can easily play around Sucker Punch and Iron Head, turning it into a 50/50. Lele can still use Moonblast and straight-up kill with Bisharp having such poor special bulk. With Dugtrio gone (which is admittedly a huge plus for Sharp, though imo not enough to keep it in B+), Z-Move Lele is rising, meaning that Knock is doing less and less. SubTran is faster and can force, once again, a 50/50 - use Sub and get one up for free, use Magma Storm and kill Sharp. I already explained how DD Zygarde rising over CB is harmful for Sharp, along with Birdspam (it carries tons and tons of coverage against it, which it's not taking very well at all). It's relying on Iron Head more and more now, which isn't good as Steel is not a good offensive typing at all in this metagame. In addition, Stall still has Sableye-Mega, which can burn Sharp.
Nowadays, it's relying on 50/50s - click Iron Head or Sucker/Knock. If it loses the 50/50, it dies. This is making it less consistent in this metagame and as such, it should drop.
EDIT: Also backing Kyurem-Black to A. Pex/Celes/Venu is just steamrolled by this, and the LO set is beginning to rise back up into prominence as it's a rather versatile set. It pairs extremely well with Koko, which is absolutely fantastic in thie current meta. Dual Defog stall also has tons of issues with Icium Z, which can break through the majority of mons on the build. It's never deadweight vs offense tho, being rather bulky and Dragon letting it check a large amount of mons on it.
Also, just gonna say that while Hoopa-U did get better, I'm not sure of it rising. Dark/Psychic just really sucks in this metagame, with Weavile still trapping it regardless and CB Ttar doing the same if it's locked into the wrong move. It's super strong vs stall and all but it's still as bad as ever vs offense, only slightly better with Dugtrio being gone. Not worthy of a rise imo.
In addition, don't drop Skarmory. This is honestly a hasty nom made just because Dugtrio's gone, but is absolutely wrong. Stall did take a hit, yes, but is still decently effective and common. Skarmory is a cornerstone on pretty much every stall team out there. In particular, it's vital to non-SPL stall, and considering the fact that SPL stall was hit the hardest by the AT ban, and the other stall builds are still decent, this shouldn't drop at all.
I can also get behind a Weavile rise. In general B+ is kind of messy rn so I'll address that in a later post.
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Not even counting the Arena Trap ban, Kyurem has seen a surge in usage not only on the suspect ladder as well as OLT playoffs as one of the best balance breakers in the tier. All these VenuSteelaPex cores crumble to this mon as well as other defensive threats such as Zapdos and Ferrothorn. Both Subzero Slammer and the legendary LO KB prove to be a massive pain for teams to switch into simply because of its coverage options being too much for teams to switch into. In addition, being an offensive check to many irritating threats such as non-Gleam/Twinkle Tackle Koko, non-Low Kick Gren, Ash-Gren, Tangrowth and Zapdos is insanely valuable. Its bulk is phenomenal in the current meta for a wallbreaker of its caliber; Kyurem is not like Hoopa which lacks the bulk and crumbles under offensive pressure. Subzero Slammer is still easily able to guarantee at least 1 kill in most matches since the threat of Subzero Slammer forces opponents to play in such a way that they keep their lone Subzero Slammer switchin, such as Mega Scizor, healthy. Life Orb Roost + BoltBeam + HP Fire shreds through just about every single team since it causes so many switches that it easily finds opportunities to Roost despite its Stealth Rock weakness. From matches such as vertex vs. Soulwind g1, you can see that Kyurem puts so much pressure on Soulwind's team that he is forced to use Greninja as a switchin which was punished by Fusion Bolt, netting 3 kills in this match (technically about 2.5 since the Ferrothorn got crit, but the HP Fire damage would've put it out of commission regardless). It even forces threats like the rising Mega Scizor into 50/50s between Roosting and using Bullet Punch for fear of HP Fire as shown in Cdumas vs. blunder g1 which shows how much of a massive pain this mon is for teams to deal with.
It's basically the best offensive pair to Tapu Koko due to their ability to support each other in breaking down each other's checks while providing Electric Terrain support for Kyurem-B to pressure its checks like Chansey, Magearna, and Mega Scizor. It's been performing well for good reason; teams have immense difficulty in dealing with its bulk and coverage which is becoming very valuable in this meta given the rise in passive mons and offensive threats that it can easily come in on and start wreaking havoc on, so I support Kyurem-Black rising to A rank.
Idk if this was brought up before but something I really want to bring up is ash gren? I think it's worthy of being banned s rank
This mon has very limited switch ins, very splashable, an amazing win con
Also the fact that it forces the opponent to keep switching and weaken like half his team just to keep it from transforming is ridiculous
Its priority is insanely powerful and completely screws over offense and balance once it transforms , it does like 85% to koko and 70% to mega lopunny, also the fact that only two mons in ou outspeed it like wtf is 132 base speed. U literally lose nothing by adding it to ur team, getting it to transform isnt even that hard, why is it not s rank? Just wanna hear your thoughts so uh what are your thoughts on ash gren
This mon has very limited switch ins, very splashable, an amazing win con
Also the fact that it forces the opponent to keep switching and weaken like half his team just to keep it from transforming is ridiculous
Its priority is insanely powerful and completely screws over offense and balance once it transforms , it does like 85% to koko and 70% to mega lopunny, also the fact that only two mons in ou outspeed it like wtf is 132 base speed. U literally lose nothing by adding it to ur team, getting it to transform isnt even that hard, why is it not s rank? Just wanna hear your thoughts so uh what are your thoughts on ash gren
i agree with Volcorana dropping to A, volca losing duggy is actually huge as now it makes its 4mss much worse than it was before having to decide what to hit ranging from heatran, zygarde, pex to tyranitar
Chansey has been seeing a surge of popularity lately in the form of Chansey offense and on balance which is has been good lately checking alot of the most terrifying sweepers in the tier in like magearna ash greninja and lele, it's such a good glue with its cosmic special bulk and and can provide rock and twave support for offense and balance, so I support Chansey moving up to A
Yea I also kinda agree with Tyranitar moving up to A, cb ttar has very limited switch ins and really really appreciates duggy banned from just coming in and removing it
Chansey has been seeing a surge of popularity lately in the form of Chansey offense and on balance which is has been good lately checking alot of the most terrifying sweepers in the tier in like magearna ash greninja and lele, it's such a good glue with its cosmic special bulk and and can provide rock and twave support for offense and balance, so I support Chansey moving up to A
Yea I also kinda agree with Tyranitar moving up to A, cb ttar has very limited switch ins and really really appreciates duggy banned from just coming in and removing it
I wanted to make a bunch of noms but most of them have been covered already so I'll just add a couple of things
Mega Charizard Y -> B+
This mon was rly good for a short period of time during wcop but the rise of Shed Shell Pex eventually put it back down at A-. Now, Dugtrio's ban makes it even harder to use because it's forced to run Focus Blast to break Heatran and Tyranitar, which gives the likes of Zygarde and Garchomp a better time switching into it because they don't fear HP Ice anymore. Chansey is also more annoying to face because Dug isn't there to trap it, which gives it a hard time when facing non shed shell pex Stall and those weird Chansey hybrids running around. It can't even attempt to lure Pelipper or Mantine with HP Elec because that would mean giving up Focus Blast. This, on top of facing competition from some of the upcoming balance breakers such as LO KB and Specs Lele and the opportunity cost of not using other Megas that got better after Dugs ban like Mega Diancie and Mega Mawile is enough for it to warrant a drop imo.
On some of the other noms, I agree w most of what has been said except for Heatran to S (I think Gary explained this already) and Tyranitar to A. Despite Dugtrio's ban, I don't see Tyranitar on the level of other A mon such ad Tapu Bulu and Zapdos. It's certainly better now that it can't be removed from the game by Dug but it still has some of the same issues that held it back prior to its ban, namely its low Speed and mediocre matchup vs Offense. Bug Buzz Volcarona is on the rise too so it can't act as a Volc check for offense anymore. It's good vs Stall without Dug but it shouldn't take Stall too long to adapt to the new meta and we might see a rise on bulky Grounds like Quagsire so I think it's too early to tell. Stone Edge's low accuracy and PP is another drawback because bulky teams can switch between regen mons and eventually PP Stall it with 1 or 2 misses.
Mega Charizard Y -> B+
This mon was rly good for a short period of time during wcop but the rise of Shed Shell Pex eventually put it back down at A-. Now, Dugtrio's ban makes it even harder to use because it's forced to run Focus Blast to break Heatran and Tyranitar, which gives the likes of Zygarde and Garchomp a better time switching into it because they don't fear HP Ice anymore. Chansey is also more annoying to face because Dug isn't there to trap it, which gives it a hard time when facing non shed shell pex Stall and those weird Chansey hybrids running around. It can't even attempt to lure Pelipper or Mantine with HP Elec because that would mean giving up Focus Blast. This, on top of facing competition from some of the upcoming balance breakers such as LO KB and Specs Lele and the opportunity cost of not using other Megas that got better after Dugs ban like Mega Diancie and Mega Mawile is enough for it to warrant a drop imo.
On some of the other noms, I agree w most of what has been said except for Heatran to S (I think Gary explained this already) and Tyranitar to A. Despite Dugtrio's ban, I don't see Tyranitar on the level of other A mon such ad Tapu Bulu and Zapdos. It's certainly better now that it can't be removed from the game by Dug but it still has some of the same issues that held it back prior to its ban, namely its low Speed and mediocre matchup vs Offense. Bug Buzz Volcarona is on the rise too so it can't act as a Volc check for offense anymore. It's good vs Stall without Dug but it shouldn't take Stall too long to adapt to the new meta and we might see a rise on bulky Grounds like Quagsire so I think it's too early to tell. Stone Edge's low accuracy and PP is another drawback because bulky teams can switch between regen mons and eventually PP Stall it with 1 or 2 misses.
Garchomp A -> A- Disagree
I use garchomp a lot; swords dance z move, swords dance life orb, and offensive rocks sets are all amazing right now. At the moment, it is one of my very favorite rockers in the tier because of the pressure that it exerts and how the z moves can blow away mons like mew with dragonium or groundium, tang with firium or dragonium etc. Definitely do not drop this mon.
Hoopa B -> B+
With dugtrio being gone, Hoopa is amazing. I used it a lot during the suspect test, and paired with tapu lele, another mon rising in usage, this hits sooo hard. This is a bold statement, but hoopa is just so strong right now and can tear through teams. A decent speed tier too with a great special defense makes hoopa even better.
Tyranitar A- -> A Agree
This got a lot of usage this suspect test as a great wallbreaker. There's not too much to say, it's just good old tyranitar. It hits hard and dents teams.
Zapdos A -> A+
This has nothing to do with the suspect test, but zapdos is one of the most splashable mons right now. With access to defog, roost, discharge, z moves, agility, heat wave, hp ice and great stats so that it can be run defensively, offensively, or a mix of both, zapdos is amazing right now. It also provides a celesteela and toxapex answer, as well as a ground resist. Zapdos also works on all teams such as balance, bulky offense, and stall.
Heatran A+ -> S Don't know
On one hand, heatran is amazing with a bunch of utility in running z moves, being offensive, being defog, toxic, substitute, taunt, and even magma storm for trapping, as well as an ice resist, a fairy resist, and even a flying resist and a fire typing which is great for being offensive, it is amazing. It also beats stall pretty much singlehandedly, and is able to fit on literally every type of team with stall, balance, bulky offense, and hyper offense. It also has stealth rock which is amazing. On the other hand, it also has key weaknesses to water, fighting, and of course the the ever-so-prominent ground types. It is also easy to pressure from the other team, so overall I don't know if it should be S or not.
I use garchomp a lot; swords dance z move, swords dance life orb, and offensive rocks sets are all amazing right now. At the moment, it is one of my very favorite rockers in the tier because of the pressure that it exerts and how the z moves can blow away mons like mew with dragonium or groundium, tang with firium or dragonium etc. Definitely do not drop this mon.
Hoopa B -> B+
With dugtrio being gone, Hoopa is amazing. I used it a lot during the suspect test, and paired with tapu lele, another mon rising in usage, this hits sooo hard. This is a bold statement, but hoopa is just so strong right now and can tear through teams. A decent speed tier too with a great special defense makes hoopa even better.
Tyranitar A- -> A Agree
This got a lot of usage this suspect test as a great wallbreaker. There's not too much to say, it's just good old tyranitar. It hits hard and dents teams.
Zapdos A -> A+
This has nothing to do with the suspect test, but zapdos is one of the most splashable mons right now. With access to defog, roost, discharge, z moves, agility, heat wave, hp ice and great stats so that it can be run defensively, offensively, or a mix of both, zapdos is amazing right now. It also provides a celesteela and toxapex answer, as well as a ground resist. Zapdos also works on all teams such as balance, bulky offense, and stall.
Heatran A+ -> S Don't know
On one hand, heatran is amazing with a bunch of utility in running z moves, being offensive, being defog, toxic, substitute, taunt, and even magma storm for trapping, as well as an ice resist, a fairy resist, and even a flying resist and a fire typing which is great for being offensive, it is amazing. It also beats stall pretty much singlehandedly, and is able to fit on literally every type of team with stall, balance, bulky offense, and hyper offense. It also has stealth rock which is amazing. On the other hand, it also has key weaknesses to water, fighting, and of course the the ever-so-prominent ground types. It is also easy to pressure from the other team, so overall I don't know if it should be S or not.
Some things I am a little puzzled about.
One, you're just telling me stuff already know. I'm well aware Hoopa can tear stuff up, or that Heatran has a ton of utility moves. It's like me telling you that Kyurem-B hits insanely hard, and thus deserves S-rank. You're better off going deeper than that. You'll be better off not merely summarizing what the mon's stats/moveset is (everyone here already knows this), but instead telling me what metagame influence the mon has.
I mean, come on, you're nomming Tyranitar to go to A simply because he's "good old tyranitar." What kind of reason is that? You know what, at this point, why not nominate Kyurem-B to go to S-rank because he's "good old Kyurem-B."
Secondly, I would flat out disagree with a lot of your points. You mention Zapdos being splashable and Heatran being easily pressured. What would make you say either of these things? Do you even know what pressuring means? I know not what makes Zapdos so splashable in your book, unless you're implying everyone uses Pinsir or something. And why do you think Heatran is easily pressured? Heatran has had massive success because he forces so many switches and can exploit this to make Substitutes or something, all the while preying on common metamons like enemy Heatran, Chansey, or even Toxapex/Landorus-T (if behind a Sub or something). I don't know if you'd call this being "easily pressured."
You need to come up with better reasons, or at least elaborate on some of your really unimpressive ones.
I have to disagree with Garchomp A -> A- , I've tried dragon spam lately and this Dragon here is really good. I used both Rocks Swords Dance Z-Move and Scarfed variations, and I had a lot of success with the former, It not only can pressure some common leads, gaining the opportunity to set up Rocks, but it also gets the ability to break a lot of common threats with a +2 base Devastating Drake, and not to mention now that Heatran and other defensive Pokemon are rising in power due to Arena ban, Having a powerful Earthquake breaker is going to always welcome.
Honestly, if there was an S- rank, I would say Heatran should go to that. It STILL has a quad weakness to Ground, which is everywhere with Lando. It does stop stall in its tracks, but I don't see how the removal of Dugtrio puts it at S-rank. Yes, it kills stall now. However, Ground is still absolutely everywhere among other things. I'm on mobile so I can't do much else, but I don't see Heatran as S right now.
Deleted User 400951
Banned deucer.
I'm against making an S- rank and even then Heatran wouldn't be the mon I'd put in it. As you said, Grounds are still everywhere. TBH the nom to S was pretty impulsive and only to ride on the AT ban.
Hey, thanks for the response! I'm gonna try and go through this:
-Stall, from what I've found, has either put some additional bulky mon like pyuku or another trapper to replace dugtrio. You know more than I do, but this is what I've found. These new mons don't appreciate Ttar.
-Meh, IDK about bulky grounds rising. They wouldn't be too useful against too much, and if Ttar is forcing stall to adapt like this it's a sign that it has a strong influence.
-Bulky teams oftentimes don't have a switch-in to Crunch either, sans clef who just dies to Stone Edge. It can also be taken care of by another teammate.
I could definitely see Lele rising.
The suspect ladder was full of this thing and even though those don't always resemble the metagame that follows, Lele performed well enough on it that I don't see it getting worse any time soon.
It has such a huge versatility in sets it can run now with Calm Mind, Taunt, Mind Plate, Fightinium, Electrium, Psychium, Specs, Scarf, ... all being viable and super threatening. I even encountered LO Lele like 2 times I think (no comment on how good this set actually is. It depends on the team).
The fact that it can hit on both sides due to Psyshock always keeps you guessing which is usually in favor of the Lele user, and when you think you've figured it out (besides choice sets ofc, which I think are its worst ones unless you need an Offense check through Scarf), it reveals something stupid like that one Z-move that kills your check, or sets up on the switch with CM after which it starts dismantling your bulky cores.
I haven't been the biggest fan of this Tapu in the past and I would wait a bit to see how it fares when everything settles down, but I believe it would be my first pick for a rise at this moment.
The suspect ladder was full of this thing and even though those don't always resemble the metagame that follows, Lele performed well enough on it that I don't see it getting worse any time soon.
It has such a huge versatility in sets it can run now with Calm Mind, Taunt, Mind Plate, Fightinium, Electrium, Psychium, Specs, Scarf, ... all being viable and super threatening. I even encountered LO Lele like 2 times I think (no comment on how good this set actually is. It depends on the team).
The fact that it can hit on both sides due to Psyshock always keeps you guessing which is usually in favor of the Lele user, and when you think you've figured it out (besides choice sets ofc, which I think are its worst ones unless you need an Offense check through Scarf), it reveals something stupid like that one Z-move that kills your check, or sets up on the switch with CM after which it starts dismantling your bulky cores.
I haven't been the biggest fan of this Tapu in the past and I would wait a bit to see how it fares when everything settles down, but I believe it would be my first pick for a rise at this moment.
Heatran to S > ,Tran for shure is annoying, specially with mons like clef, steela , scizor and lele being top treats both defensivly and ofensivly, the later two seing huge usage during suspect, and arena trap being banned, tran has actually got a huge buff, but i am not 100% convinced that it deserves S, for two reasons : it does not check tapu lele real well unless spd and even then fears focus, and its best set is 100% magma trapper. And second : Landorus, Zygarde and Ash Greninja keep being 3 top tier treats, all of them are dangerous for heatran in a way, Ash Ninja can come in once on magma, and either treathen to OHKO with pump or set a spike, which is move tran really dislikes, zygarde strait counters it unless HP ice ( then again who runs that? ) and sets up on it, landorus T does not come in safely more then once, but wonce in, it either sets rocks on it or kills something or just U turns out. Conclusion : Unsure
Kyurem-B to A > ok, i dont need to say much, this mon has strait up no switchins when paired with koko, HP fire boops scizor when packing an LO, Ice beam does similar to tang, venu, landot and many others, fusion bolt destroys general swichins when under terrain, like clefable, heatran, chansey, even M zor after rocks, E power strait one shots tran and does heavy damage to pex. But it does not end here, kyurem also has reliable recovery in roost and great bulk, allowing it to leave the majority of the hits thrown at it, this in conjunction with its dragon typing allows it to serve as a check to some problematic pokemons like DD non Outrage Zygarde, Non Dazzling Gleam Koko, Ash Gren pre transformation and manaphy. So all that being said, i 100% agree on this raise
Kyurem-B to A > ok, i dont need to say much, this mon has strait up no switchins when paired with koko, HP fire boops scizor when packing an LO, Ice beam does similar to tang, venu, landot and many others, fusion bolt destroys general swichins when under terrain, like clefable, heatran, chansey, even M zor after rocks, E power strait one shots tran and does heavy damage to pex. But it does not end here, kyurem also has reliable recovery in roost and great bulk, allowing it to leave the majority of the hits thrown at it, this in conjunction with its dragon typing allows it to serve as a check to some problematic pokemons like DD non Outrage Zygarde, Non Dazzling Gleam Koko, Ash Gren pre transformation and manaphy. So all that being said, i 100% agree on this raise
no one should seriously want heatran to s. might as well not waste your time discussing why or why not It should go up, when theyre 100% not raising.
to a-: extremely dope revenge killer, defogger, sweeper. the old knock on it not having coverage no longer applies cause tbh all it needs is grass/steel/fight and ofc there have been things like znight slash or zfighting crush things like zapdos, mew, maro and scizor, skarm, celes respectively. ferrothorn gives it a near free switch every time, allowing you to defog / sd. scarf cleans very well since many v offensive cores drop to the stab options. (lop + gren, lando + zyg, lele + anything) has pretty good defensive typing despite being killed by like squirtles water gun. i haven't used sd super recently but you can do things like sd on ferro as they go lando / mew / tang then attack (vs lando since eq doesnt do much) or zmove vs the fat shit and they're forces to sac to keep the check or give you another boost.
There have been plenty of teams using it this cycle and it has honestly impressed me. its way easier to revenge kill than it should be though, like if it reveals sd then you can go greninja and force it out, and things like koko and lopunny do not care about the snowball potential unless youre the DAY 1 OG TIMID KARTANA
to b+: like leo said it was good for like 4 days then tox started running shed shell, now with dug ban you cannot trap chans or ttar, so you have to run focus blast, which means zyg and chomp have more switch ins, along with latios and mega latias its gonna be hard pressed to ever actually get a kill.
to a-: this should rise but I'll edit this post later but basically click buttons
There have been plenty of teams using it this cycle and it has honestly impressed me. its way easier to revenge kill than it should be though, like if it reveals sd then you can go greninja and force it out, and things like koko and lopunny do not care about the snowball potential unless youre the DAY 1 OG TIMID KARTANA
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I could see Heatran being S honestly. Not now, but when the metagames settles a bit.
The effect that Arena Trap had on Heatran on a teambuilding aspect is the builder being forced to run Substitute on offensive Magma Storm Sets. SubTran post Arena Trap ban is still great but now you can afford to use other utility moves like Taunt over Substitute which boosts Heatrans versatility.
Heatran is very hard to consistently switch into. Common switch-ins like Garchomp, Zygarde and Mega Sableye can get Wisped and in the case of Mega Sab you can activate Flash Fire that way (shoutouts to tigers jaw for the idea btw. who recommended to run Wisp to me over Rocks). With Taunt and Magma Storm alone, you can trap Chansey even without Toxic. Greninja can only switch in once. The only consistent counter is Gliscor you might say but even then the combination of Magma, Rocks and Z-Solar Beam or Z-Magma kills that mon, too.
There is no consistent defensive counterplay to Heatran as far as I can see it because to me a burned physical attacker trying to switch in is a dead mon and Z-Solarbeam still exists.
Heatran was never a standalone mon that beats teams but it is very common to hear people acknowledging a teams massive weakness to Heatran. I mean, you can even go hard into Toxapex, eat 3 Scalds while killing Pex with Magma and two Earth Powers.
Losing to topthreats like Specs Gren, Landot in 1vs1 doesnt mean much to me because that is not how you are supposed to use Heatran. Usually you come in on mons like Ferro to fire off Magma Storms. Not being able to double because of Magma Storm also gives you a switch advantage, unless the target has Voltturn. While Heatran inviting those top tier threats is annoying for your team, do not forget they cannot do so without taking 50%+ unless they sacked something first.
The only argument that I can use to convince myself to not raise Heatran to S at all is Magma Storms low accuracy.
edit: There are obv. other mons with very limited defensive counterplay but compared to them, Heatran is very bulky and has many resistances and can thus switch into much while being very hard to chip as long as you keep Leftovers.
Lele for example is also very hard to switch into but it is very frail and cannot switch into any offensive attacks. Heatran has the resistances and bulk to differentiate itself from mons like Lele, Hoopa-U and is more comparable to Landorus-T, who also has very limited defensive counterplay but can also be used defensivly.
The effect that Arena Trap had on Heatran on a teambuilding aspect is the builder being forced to run Substitute on offensive Magma Storm Sets. SubTran post Arena Trap ban is still great but now you can afford to use other utility moves like Taunt over Substitute which boosts Heatrans versatility.
Heatran is very hard to consistently switch into. Common switch-ins like Garchomp, Zygarde and Mega Sableye can get Wisped and in the case of Mega Sab you can activate Flash Fire that way (shoutouts to tigers jaw for the idea btw. who recommended to run Wisp to me over Rocks). With Taunt and Magma Storm alone, you can trap Chansey even without Toxic. Greninja can only switch in once. The only consistent counter is Gliscor you might say but even then the combination of Magma, Rocks and Z-Solar Beam or Z-Magma kills that mon, too.
There is no consistent defensive counterplay to Heatran as far as I can see it because to me a burned physical attacker trying to switch in is a dead mon and Z-Solarbeam still exists.
Heatran was never a standalone mon that beats teams but it is very common to hear people acknowledging a teams massive weakness to Heatran. I mean, you can even go hard into Toxapex, eat 3 Scalds while killing Pex with Magma and two Earth Powers.
Losing to topthreats like Specs Gren, Landot in 1vs1 doesnt mean much to me because that is not how you are supposed to use Heatran. Usually you come in on mons like Ferro to fire off Magma Storms. Not being able to double because of Magma Storm also gives you a switch advantage, unless the target has Voltturn. While Heatran inviting those top tier threats is annoying for your team, do not forget they cannot do so without taking 50%+ unless they sacked something first.
The only argument that I can use to convince myself to not raise Heatran to S at all is Magma Storms low accuracy.
edit: There are obv. other mons with very limited defensive counterplay but compared to them, Heatran is very bulky and has many resistances and can thus switch into much while being very hard to chip as long as you keep Leftovers.
Lele for example is also very hard to switch into but it is very frail and cannot switch into any offensive attacks. Heatran has the resistances and bulk to differentiate itself from mons like Lele, Hoopa-U and is more comparable to Landorus-T, who also has very limited defensive counterplay but can also be used defensivly.
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I hardly post in here, but I want to echo this post. I could easily see Tran going S because it's one of the hardest things to switch in against. Even Ground mons think twice with the exception of Chomper and Zyggy, but even then you don't reeeeally like the chip of Magma + the guaranteed safe switch into something. Just like robopoke said, really the only thing I would see as a scratch against Tran is that Magma has shaky accuracy. This thing is so good against almost every team, and I can't conceive of any serious team in the mega that can afford to be weak to Heatran.
Charizard-X to B/B+: Charizard X has gotten a lot better with the removal of dugtrio. But, Charizard X also brings the surprise factor to the table. Most people expect Charizard y so they might leave in a Pokemon or switch to a Pokemon that zard x can handle. The main set I would recommend on zard x is flare blitz d claw eq and roost/ dd depending on what the team needs. toxapex arguably the most common switch into zard y. So if you get in zard x in a good spot and you get a free prediction of what the opponent is going to go into you could predict this and use eq and get the advantage. Zard x still requires a lot of support because it cant 2hko things like toxapex even with eq and there's always Lando t which is why I don't think zard x should rise too high but not a lot of teams come prepared for it anymore. You might even get some games where the opponents best answer for it is heatran but with eq that just becomes an easy win.
Here's a replay that best shows what I mean.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-314340
Here's a replay that best shows what I mean.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-314340
I don't think Zard X should rise just because of the Dugtrio ban and "surprise factor", especially on that surprise factor element because that won't last too long if Zard X starts to become more popular.
Zard X should rise because its checks are starting to either become more scarce or the mons that once checked it are changing their sets. Z-moves on Lando are the most common sets, Fini is never seen in favor of the other Tapus, >100 scarfers are nowhere near as common and most of them besides Garchomp can't even OHKO Zard X from full, and hippowdon, while it's rising on the VR, is still fairly uncommon.
If anything, I don't see it past B rank because Heatran and Banded Tyranitar are more popular than ever right now post-Duggy ban, which forces Zard X to run Earthquake, limiting its options. If anything, the Duggy ban hurt is almost as much as it helped it.
Zard X should rise because its checks are starting to either become more scarce or the mons that once checked it are changing their sets. Z-moves on Lando are the most common sets, Fini is never seen in favor of the other Tapus, >100 scarfers are nowhere near as common and most of them besides Garchomp can't even OHKO Zard X from full, and hippowdon, while it's rising on the VR, is still fairly uncommon.
If anything, I don't see it past B rank because Heatran and Banded Tyranitar are more popular than ever right now post-Duggy ban, which forces Zard X to run Earthquake, limiting its options. If anything, the Duggy ban hurt is almost as much as it helped it.
I posted about this in the metagame thread. I disagree with a ZardX rise right now because I think it's premature. I think most of the success recently is due more to surprise factor than anything else. Teams that have been carrying Zygarde or other Dragon types to check/counter ZardY are often weak to ZardX because they don't carry a solid backup answer (Pex being SpDef, Landot being offensive). The typical answers to it weren't run because of a Dugtrio meta.
We should wait to see how the meta settles before raising ZardX. I think it's only good temporarily.
This is just not true. While Charizard X is certainly getting more usage right now than it will after a while, saying that Dugtrio being banned almost hurt it as much as it helped it is simply incorrect. Heatran and Tyranitar rising in usage might force Charizard X to run Earthquake, but that's not all too bad. It lets it deal with them and even if it chooses to miss out on Earthquake, none of the two are going to stay in right off the bat, forcing the player to scout first. Making Earthquake mandatory might be an issue, but it's nowhere near how Dugtrio kept it back. Once Dugtrio was in against it, it was just game over, while the other two in the worst case scenario forces a switch.
I don't think it's unreasonable to move Charizard X to B rank based on just the Dugtrio ban, considering how big a hindrance Dugtrio was. B rank is still pretty low and does show it that it still has issues. I could see it moving a bit past that as well in the future.
Yes as I said earlier eq is part of my recommended set and without it, Charizard wouldn't deserve a rise. But with it, ttar and heatran can't come in or stay in. As for Lando, yes lando is obviously a bit of a problem but, since you don't see defensive Lando nearly as often this gen Charizard can flare blitz on the opponents switch to Lando and 2hko if it's not scarfed Lando at -1 and not be severely punished by recoil+rocky helmet like last gen. Charizard X obviously still has its problems but I think B for now is fair
-1 252 Atk Tough Claws Charizard-Mega-X Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian: 186-219 (58.3 - 68.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252 Atk Tough Claws Charizard-Mega-X Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian: 186-219 (58.3 - 68.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I'm really unsure as to why people believe Heatran should move to S rank. Arena Trap isn't the only thing restricting Heatran, don't forget we still have Pokemon like Landorus-T and Greninja which both check and in some cases counter. Arguably, they both cannot switch into Z-sets, but the best set right now is SubMagma. Also, unless you're SubToxic, Zygarde answers, and SubToxic is pretty common so Zygarde isn't a clean counter, but it can be. It also has a hard time against a lot of other Pokemon, including Keldeo, Garchomp, and Kyurem-Black (Earth Power check.)
Also, something that people don't bring up is Scarf Lele can run Focus Blast for Heatran, which almost OHKOs after Stealth Rock damage. Another thing is Heatran has a very hard time with rain, which is spammed a lot of the ladder, so that's something to mention.
This isn't to say I want Heatran to drop either, as it's most certainly a great Pokemon, and certainly better because of the loss of Arena Trap, but it's definitely not S rank material.
I also understand Robopoke's post, and that's cool and all, but like he said, not now, but at a later time, and I can definitely see Heatran S rank at a later time. He brought up some great points that I didn't, so be sure to read what he said.
Also, something that people don't bring up is Scarf Lele can run Focus Blast for Heatran, which almost OHKOs after Stealth Rock damage. Another thing is Heatran has a very hard time with rain, which is spammed a lot of the ladder, so that's something to mention.
This isn't to say I want Heatran to drop either, as it's most certainly a great Pokemon, and certainly better because of the loss of Arena Trap, but it's definitely not S rank material.
I also understand Robopoke's post, and that's cool and all, but like he said, not now, but at a later time, and I can definitely see Heatran S rank at a later time. He brought up some great points that I didn't, so be sure to read what he said.
I don't support S ranked Heatran, but I do think you have rather poor reasoning as to why it should not rise. While you are right in the fact that a ton of great mons check Heatran, none of what you posted are infact counters, as you yourself admitted that none of these said mons can switch into a certain Heatran set. Heatran has several great sets arm, which include BloomTran, SubToxic, Firium Z among other niche picks. But it still doesn't solve the fact that several things keep the foretold in check and it has nowhere near the effect that Landorus-T and Magearna have on the metagame, so Heatran should still surely stay in A+ rank.
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King Sceptile
Banned deucer.
With Dugtrio being banned, I just wanted to give my opinions on a couple of the things that have been discussed in the thread with my take on whether they should rise, drop, or stay in the same rank they're currently in.
Heatran shouldn't go to S rank solely because it isn't on the same level as Lando-T and Magearna. Sure, Dugtrio leaving made Heatran a good bit better, but it's not improved to the point where it's one of the defining forces in the metagame and arguably the best Pokemon in the tier. S- is a stupid rank because it devalues the viability of some of the mons in A-rank and offers another arbitrary ranking line to argue over, so nomming Heatran to S- won't help either.
I'm split on Tapu Lele because while breaking sets like Choice Specs and Twisted Spoon Taunt got a lot better with the departure of Dugtrio from the tier, Tapu Lele still doesn't really have the flexibility of some of the other breakers in A+. However, Psychic Terrain support coupled with its ability to run a solid revenge killer for offense in Choice Scarf is enough versatility in terms of what it contributes to the team that sending Lele to A+ rank wouldn't be unjustified. Heatran only has one set, but it also has defensive utility aside from its breaking prowess whereas Lele's relatively frail bulk makes its defensive utility situational at best.
Kyurem-Black should definitely rise due to its ability to be a prolific breaker that tears apart the slow bulky offenses and balances favored by many good tournament players. Aside from its respectably strong STAB Ice Beam Fusion Bolt in Electric Terrain completely invalidates most of Life Orb Kyurem-Black's normal answers while Hidden Power Fire destroys both Ferrothorn and Mega Scizor, making both of them excellent coverage moves. Subzero Slammer sets certainly aren't bad by any means, but they don't have the sheer balance breaking power of Life Orb and the recent departure of Dugtrio makes it viable as a stallbreaker. This mon is such a good breaker right now that not raising it would simply be a mistake.
These two should drop due to the departure of one of their best teammates in Dugtrio, trapping troublesome defensive Pokemon such as Heatran and Chansey that would otherwise be annoying to deal with as well as the recent surge in Hyper Offense, as Volcarona now has significantly fewer setup opportunities than it did when the metagame was nothing but bulky offense and balance and Mega Charizard Y has fewer opportunities to switch in and fire off attacks. Obviously there's still a good amount of balance now, but these two are a lot more reliant on teammate support to beat its checks than just having Dugtrio trap them like it did before. Volcarona's Bug Buzz Hidden Power Ground set can still blow through offensive teams that run things like Latios and Tyranitar, so Volcarona is not bad by any means, it's just seen better days. Mega Charizard Y is honestly pretty hard to justify building around now due to its teambuilding constraints coupled with no distinguishing features that make it a significantly better choice than other breakers, unlike Volcarona's immense sweeping potential.
There's a few other things that I would change in these rankings, but all of those are changes to mons that are ranked below A rank right now, and I haven't used them enough to properly justify my changes in their placements.
Heatran shouldn't go to S rank solely because it isn't on the same level as Lando-T and Magearna. Sure, Dugtrio leaving made Heatran a good bit better, but it's not improved to the point where it's one of the defining forces in the metagame and arguably the best Pokemon in the tier. S- is a stupid rank because it devalues the viability of some of the mons in A-rank and offers another arbitrary ranking line to argue over, so nomming Heatran to S- won't help either.
I'm split on Tapu Lele because while breaking sets like Choice Specs and Twisted Spoon Taunt got a lot better with the departure of Dugtrio from the tier, Tapu Lele still doesn't really have the flexibility of some of the other breakers in A+. However, Psychic Terrain support coupled with its ability to run a solid revenge killer for offense in Choice Scarf is enough versatility in terms of what it contributes to the team that sending Lele to A+ rank wouldn't be unjustified. Heatran only has one set, but it also has defensive utility aside from its breaking prowess whereas Lele's relatively frail bulk makes its defensive utility situational at best.
Kyurem-Black should definitely rise due to its ability to be a prolific breaker that tears apart the slow bulky offenses and balances favored by many good tournament players. Aside from its respectably strong STAB Ice Beam Fusion Bolt in Electric Terrain completely invalidates most of Life Orb Kyurem-Black's normal answers while Hidden Power Fire destroys both Ferrothorn and Mega Scizor, making both of them excellent coverage moves. Subzero Slammer sets certainly aren't bad by any means, but they don't have the sheer balance breaking power of Life Orb and the recent departure of Dugtrio makes it viable as a stallbreaker. This mon is such a good breaker right now that not raising it would simply be a mistake.
These two should drop due to the departure of one of their best teammates in Dugtrio, trapping troublesome defensive Pokemon such as Heatran and Chansey that would otherwise be annoying to deal with as well as the recent surge in Hyper Offense, as Volcarona now has significantly fewer setup opportunities than it did when the metagame was nothing but bulky offense and balance and Mega Charizard Y has fewer opportunities to switch in and fire off attacks. Obviously there's still a good amount of balance now, but these two are a lot more reliant on teammate support to beat its checks than just having Dugtrio trap them like it did before. Volcarona's Bug Buzz Hidden Power Ground set can still blow through offensive teams that run things like Latios and Tyranitar, so Volcarona is not bad by any means, it's just seen better days. Mega Charizard Y is honestly pretty hard to justify building around now due to its teambuilding constraints coupled with no distinguishing features that make it a significantly better choice than other breakers, unlike Volcarona's immense sweeping potential.
There's a few other things that I would change in these rankings, but all of those are changes to mons that are ranked below A rank right now, and I haven't used them enough to properly justify my changes in their placements.
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