Metagame 1v1 Metagame Discussion

[Quantum Tesseract]

Tapu Koko: I'll give you this one.

Tapu Fini: I'll also give you this one.

Altaria-Mega: 252+ Atk Pixilate Altaria-Mega Return vs. +1 0 HP / 120 Def Marshadow: 270-320 (84.1 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 136 Atk Marshadow Soul-Stealing 7-Star Strike vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Altaria-Mega: 390-460 (110.1 - 129.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Celesteela: 252 Atk Marshadow Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Celesteela: 135-160 (33.9 - 40.2%) -- 41% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Marshadow Soul-Stealing 7-Star Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Celesteela: 219-258 (55 - 64.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Celesteela Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Marshadow: 186-222 (57.9 - 69.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
In short, the only way Celesteela wins all the time is with Specs or something.

Diancie: 252 Atk Marshadow Soul-Stealing 7-Star Strike vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Diancie: 219-258 (90.8 - 107%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
And no, bulky regular Diancie is bad.

Landorus-Therian: Not gonna go into logistics, but Will-O Marsh won unless it was Flyinium, which is suboptimal, and was only used because Marsh was still around.

Lopunny-Mega: Loses to bulkier Marshadows.

Mawile-Mega: You got me on this one, unless you run into that shitty Roseli Berry bait set that was running around.

gonna edit in more once i have time

Just a note, malt can run special sets or use the more powerful recharge moves (hyper beam and giga impact), so the return point is a bit misleading and it does check marsh.

Subflail lop should basically always win, as if marsh tries to bulk up it can drop an HJK and even bulky marsh isnt *that* bulky.

 

[Nalei]

It's been 1 month since the council decided to quickban Marshadow and we have 2 more months until Ultra Sun / Ultra Moon is released. Recently Whammerist suggested that we unban Deoxys to "save" the metagame. But well, I have a better suggestion.

UNBAN MARSHADOW
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I bet that after seeing this you'll be like "dude wtf is wrong with you Marshadow is broken af"
And I'll remind you that Kyurem-Black is still a thing.But we are not here to talk about how broken Kyurem-Black is that's a post for later.
Rather, I am here to get Marshadow unbanned.

First of all, why was it even banned? Yeah I get it's a good wallbreaker so and? Let me get you some counters for it.
Tapu Koko
Tapu Fini
Altaria-Mega
Celesteela
Diancie/Diancie-Mega
Landorus-Therian
Lopunny-Mega
Mawile-Mega
Mimikyu
Swampert-Mega
Scizor-Mega
Talonflame
and more...

Secondly, Marshadow's decent speed and attack stats make it able to beat sleep abusers such as Jumpluff and Mega Gengar that are considered unhealthy by many.

Moreover, it beats Kyurem-Black.

Lastly, I am against the action of quickbanning Marshadow or anything, because it should be decided by the players whether a pokemon is broken or not.

Yeah that wasn't a long post.

I don't know, maybe because it beats ~70% of the VR with a single set? That should be enough evidence, but if you beg to differ...
Not sure why you thought Lando-T (sub can work around Flyinium), Diancie, Mega Swampert and Mega Scizor counter Marshadow (and Talonflame just isn't relevant).
Add Marshadow's AV set into the mix and it beats Koko, Fini, Primarina and Meloetta.
Add Elo Bandit's set into the mix and it beats Mega Mawile and Magearna.
Add Scarf and Mega Lopunny and Scarf Lele drop.
I can count the number of counters Marshadow has on one hand (Ghostium Mimikyu, Will-O-Wisp+Taunt Mega Sableye, Hyper Voice+Hyper Beam Mega Altaria, Mega Pidgeot, Talonflame).

As for helping to balance the metagame, it needs to run banded Shadow Sneak or scarf to beat Mega Gengar (these sets see no usage). Furthermore, the most common set relies to knowing what set Kyurem is in order to beat it. Marshadow is fucking broken.

 

[dusk raimon]

I don't know, maybe because it beats ~70% of the VR with a single set? That should be enough evidence, but if you beg to differ...
Not sure why you thought Lando-T (sub can work around Flyinium), Diancie, Mega Swampert and Mega Scizor counter Marshadow (and Talonflame just isn't relevant).
Add Marshadow's AV set into the mix and it beats Koko, Fini, Primarina and Meloetta.
Add Elo Bandit's set into the mix and it beats Mega Mawile and Magearna.
Add Scarf and Mega Lopunny and Scarf Lele drop.
I can count the number of counters Marshadow has on one hand (Ghostium Mimikyu, Will-O-Wisp+Taunt Mega Sableye, Hyper Voice+Hyper Beam Mega Altaria, Mega Pidgeot, Talonflame).

As for helping to balance the metagame, it needs to run banded Shadow Sneak or scarf to beat Mega Gengar (these sets see no usage). Furthermore, the most common set relies to knowing what set Kyurem is in order to beat it. Marshadow is fucking broken.

I do agree with this on the whole but you say if scarf is added to the mix then mega lopunny and scarf lele drop, but you then say scarf sees no usage a paragraph later i feel like thats slightly contradictory and a bit too similar to coming up with random kyub sets which have no usage (groundium-z etc) to show how it bypasses would be counters. However on the whole marshadow is far too broken its just a bit hypocritical to list a set as something which allows it to bypass counters and then go onto to say that set has no usage.

e: the point is listing irrelevant sets like that doesn't help your argument in suggesting how marshadow is broken, but in this instance it isn't needed to prove that marshadow is broken it already beats enough

 

[edudittA]

The following is from DEG's "suspect philosophy" post, and I directly quote :

7) Staying on the topic of sets, don't bring in discussion niche sets just to prove that this Pokemon is broken since it can adapt easily, it's just not a good base to build on since most Pokemon can also run niche sets to defeat other.

Also with this consideration, I think the claim that marshadow breaks 70% of the meta is factually wrong. It essentially breaks mons which need a turn or two to set up, and since this was totally the only game play until marshadow was released, people were comfortable upto that point. No doubt, marshadow's release caused mayhem in the meta, but that's just because people were just so used to the setup kill, that the duration between marshadow's release and ban was so less to allow the meta to get adjusted and find solid counter-play. Just like jumpluff and snorlax are forcing the meta to be either Magic Bouncer, or a fighting Mon respectively to counter sleep currently, marshadow forced the meta to rethink itself. But unlike sleep's counter play, which was a passive but prevalent strat from the start, marshadow's counter play was not so.

 

[Nalei]

The following is from DEG's "suspect philosophy" post, and I directly quote :

7) Staying on the topic of sets, don't bring in discussion niche sets just to prove that this Pokemon is broken since it can adapt easily, it's just not a good base to build on since most Pokemon can also run niche sets to defeat other.

Also with this consideration, I think the claim that marshadow breaks 70% of the meta is factually wrong. It essentially breaks mons which need a turn or two to set up, and since this was totally the only game play until marshadow was released, people were comfortable upto that point. No doubt, marshadow's release caused mayhem in the meta, but that's just because people were just so used to the setup kill, that the duration between marshadow's release and ban was so less to allow the meta to get adjusted and find solid counter-play. Just like jumpluff and snorlax are forcing the meta to be either Magic Bouncer, or a fighting Mon respectively to counter sleep currently, marshadow forced the meta to rethink itself. But unlike sleep's counter play, which was a passive but prevalent strat from the start, marshadow's counter play was not so.

The claim that Marshadow beats 70% of the meta is based upon one set. I'd guess it beats about 95% of the meta when you put all its sets together.
Edit: See original calculations post: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/1v1.3587523/page-19#post-7419527
In these, I weighted higher rated mons more heavily too.

 

[The Official Glyx]

rip fish (Blaziken-Mega) @ Blazikenite
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 244 Atk / 32 Def / 232 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Bulk Up
- Thunder Punch
- High Jump Kick
- Brave Bird / Flare Blitz / Filler

No 50/50s vs Gyarados.
You still 50/50 on the mega, but now you get two chances.

252+ Atk Mold Breaker Gyarados-Mega Waterfall vs. +1 0 HP / 32 Def Blaziken-Mega: 254-300 (84.3 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
244+ Atk Blaziken-Mega Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 508-600 (128.9 - 152.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
244+ Atk Blaziken-Mega High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gyarados-Mega: 504-594 (127.9 - 150.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
...and you outspeed. And you get a moveslot for whatever you want.

yay probability management

So,

Turn 1

Blaziken uses Bulk Up || Gyarados doesn't Mega evolve and uses Waterfall = 6.25% chance of instant loss

Turn 2

Blaziken chooses between Thunder Punch or High Jump Kick to OHKO Gyarados || Gyarados finishes off Blaziken if it lives = 51.71875% chance of losing (HJK miss/TP Para + immobilization/TP crit factored in the crit assuming 0 bulk)

Both turns combine for a total of 54.736328125% chance of losing vs Gyarados.



However, if you throw in Protect...

Turn 1

Blaziken uses Bulk Up || Gyarados doesn't Mega evolve and uses Waterfall = 6.25% chance of instant loss

Turn 2

Blaziken uses Protect to see if Gyarados Mega evolves in anticipation of Thunder Punch || Gyarados tries to finish off Blaziken = 50% chance of Gyarados Mega evolving

Turn 3 (no Mega)

Blaziken chooses between Thunder Punch or High Jump Kick to OHKO Gyarados if it didn't Mega evolve yet || Gyarados finishes off Blaziken if it lives = 51.71875% chance of losing (HJK miss/TP Para + immobilization/TP crit factored in the crit assuming 0 bulk)

Turn 3 (Mega)

Blaziken OHKOs Gyarados with High Jump Kick || Gyarados finishes off Blaziken if it misses = 10% chance of losing

All these turns combined make for a total of 30.10498046875% chance of losing vs Gyarados

Highly selective set, but not bad odds vs Gyarados, at least.

lemme know if I calced something wrong

On the topic of probability management:

I don't know, maybe because it beats ~70% of the VR with a single set? That should be enough evidence

Just stop and actually look at what people use and how often it beats them, since beating all those Stunfisk level mons that we have on the VR doesn't mean anything. If you're gonna throw numbers around, make sure they aren't based on opinion, you'd actually have a valid point against Marshadow if that were the case.

Too aggressive sounding?

 

[Felucia]

On the topic of probability management:

Just stop and actually look at what people use and how often it beats them, since beating all those Stunfisk level mons that we have on the VR doesn't mean anything. If you're gonna throw numbers around, make sure they aren't based on opinion, you'd actually have a valid point against Marshadow if that were the case.

Too aggressive sounding?

I ran a calculation on every single pokémon on the VR, noted if marshadow beats it and weighted by usage
With this, marshadow beat 71% of the meta at the time.
UOP is wrong, Glyx is right the calcs are still right though

I personally don't feel like talking about Marshadow... It's gone and should stay gone

 

[jrm115]

I ran a calculation on every single pokémon on the VR, noted if marshadow beats it and weighted by usage
With this, marshadow beat 71% of the meta at the time.

I personally don't feel like talking about Marshadow... It's gone and should stay gone

alright i know this you dont wanna talk about it but could you just link your calculations so that i can nerd out for a minute that looks fun

 

[Yung Dramps]

alright i know this you dont wanna talk about it but could you just link your calculations so that i can nerd out for a minute that looks fun

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/1v1.3587523/page-19#post-7419744

Also, at the select few people who are supporting Marshadow unban. I don't have time to go into full detail, but in my opinion, the fact that we are even bringing up the possibility of unbanning Marshadow is a farce, almost like something out of one of those absurdist gmod videos/animations you find on Youtube. Did you people not play a single ladder game in the time Marshadow WAS legal? If you actually did, you wouldn't even be contemplating a decision like this. I understand people's concerns with Deoxys-N, I really do. But here's the thing: Unless there was a time way back in early XY or something where Deoxys-N was legal and it shredded the meta to ribbons that I don't know about, we have NEVER seen what it can do or how good it is. Marshadow, on the other hand, only got banned, like, a month and a half ago, give or take. If you did not see a Marshadow in that time, you were either EXTREMELY low ladder, or you just didn't play 1v1 at all. It was absolutely everywhere, and it could beat just about anything it wanted to with little opportunity cost in most cases. It even surpassed Kyurem-Black and Mega Gyarados for usage. I'm giving a firm NO to a Marshadow unban. And as for a suspect? Watch it get 2 votes in total for an unban.

(Not referring to you jrm btw)

 

[blondesasukeuchiha]

I know this is an old topic and the new trend is to criticize motogp for saying unban Marshadow but I’d like to put in my opinion on the issue.


Let’s get this out of the way, yes a I am pro unban Deoxys Base. No I’m not Whammerist’s pawn here to support him in everything he says but I feel it is a good idea. I’m not going to post calcs in this response but I would like to address a few issues I see with people supporting or opposing Deoxys.

1. STOP COMPARING IT TO OTHER POKEMON. I’m not anti unban some of the mons Glyx mentioned in their post BUT to compare unbanning Deoxys Base to Deoxys Defence/Attack or Marshadow is absolutely absurd. To quote Whammerist “Put simply, Deoxys-B is balanced when Deoxys-A isn't because 150 attacking stats doesn't isn't enough to grab some of the kills you need with your coverage.” His argument literally consists of saying to not unban Deoxys Attack because it is broken. So don’t use Deoxys Base as an excuse to get your Pokemon of choice unbanned.
   
   
2. I recently watched a discussion video featuring Whammerist, Kentari, Party, and Joker which opened my eyes to the possibility of unbans/bans. This however is not the point, the point is that near the end Kentari says “If a Pokemon is worse than Kyurem-Black then obviously it should be in 1v1.” I would argue that Deoxys Base is worse, possibly much worse, than Kyurem-Black. As stated before in previous calcs, it has more counters and beats much less.
   

If you are not convinced by my arguments or past ones on this thread I understand that you most definitely will never be convinced. But I ask you this, what would be wrong with suspecting Deoxys Base? Would it hurt to do so? I think not.

 

[skies]

It boggles my mind how just over a month ago people were calling Marshadow an insanely overpowered and top-tier threat and now all of a sudden there's hype to bring it back? What metagame developments have shifted so drastically in the past month that Marshadow deserves to be unbanned? Personally, I don't see Marshadow being unbanned ever unless some huge nerf happens to it or a new threat is introduced that just eats it up. Marshadow's ban was so recent and I don't see a tangible reason to unban it especially with how much backlash there was after it not being quickbanned. No comments on the others, but it's just very interesting to see how Marshadow was such a polarizing threat that the community hated with a burning passion only to be brought up a month later as maybe able to be reintroduced.

 

[Elo Bandit]

yay probability management

So,

Turn 1

Blaziken uses Bulk Up || Gyarados doesn't Mega evolve and uses Waterfall = 6.25% chance of instant loss

Turn 2

Blaziken chooses between Thunder Punch or High Jump Kick to OHKO Gyarados || Gyarados finishes off Blaziken if it lives = 51.71875% chance of losing (HJK miss/TP Para + immobilization/TP crit factored in the crit assuming 0 bulk)

Both turns combine for a total of 54.736328125% chance of losing vs Gyarados.



However, if you throw in Protect...

Turn 1

Blaziken uses Bulk Up || Gyarados doesn't Mega evolve and uses Waterfall = 6.25% chance of instant loss

Turn 2

Blaziken uses Protect to see if Gyarados Mega evolves in anticipation of Thunder Punch || Gyarados tries to finish off Blaziken = 50% chance of Gyarados Mega evolving

Turn 3 (no Mega)

Blaziken chooses between Thunder Punch or High Jump Kick to OHKO Gyarados if it didn't Mega evolve yet || Gyarados finishes off Blaziken if it lives = 51.71875% chance of losing (HJK miss/TP Para + immobilization/TP crit factored in the crit assuming 0 bulk)

Turn 3 (Mega)

Blaziken OHKOs Gyarados with High Jump Kick || Gyarados finishes off Blaziken if it misses = 10% chance of losing

All these turns combined make for a total of 30.10498046875% chance of losing vs Gyarados

Highly selective set, but not bad odds vs Gyarados, at least.

lemme know if I calced something wrong

Okay, what about dropping Bulk Up for Substitute? Forget the defense EVs.

Just spam Substitute until Gyarados does anything other than non-mega attack. If he Megas or DDs at any point, hit him. If he never Megas or DDs, he probably thinks you're Sub Reversal (which is an option, though I like HJK for up front damage) so just click thunder punch turn 5 and win.

Sure it's still technically a 50/50 if you play the same person over and over, but I think your odds are significantly better vs random opponents.

EDIT: I was wrong, Thunder Punch isn't quite a KO on bulky non-mega Gyarados.

 

[The Official Glyx]

It boggles my mind how just over a month ago people were calling Marshadow an insanely overpowered and top-tier threat and now all of a sudden there's hype to bring it back? What metagame developments have shifted so drastically in the past month that Marshadow deserves to be unbanned? Personally, I don't see Marshadow being unbanned ever unless some huge nerf happens to it or a new threat is introduced that just eats it up. Marshadow's ban was so recent and I don't see a tangible reason to unban it especially with how much backlash there was after it not being quickbanned. No comments on the others, but it's just very interesting to see how Marshadow was such a polarizing threat that the community hated with a burning passion only to be brought up a month later as maybe able to be reintroduced.

It was the new toy syndrome that made Mimikyu S rank and potentially banworthy towards the beginning of the generation. People saw its moveset and shat themselves because it looked broken. But in reality, it was just another fast and moderately powerful glass cannon, akin to Tapu Koko, Greninja, Lopunny, Porygon-Z, and more. Sure, it had decent alternatives with Fightinium and Choice Band, but because of the same novelty effect that got Icium Kyurem-Black popular, Marshadium was the most used set by a mile, essentially forcing the alternatives down to becoming "meme" sets like Groundium Kyurem-Black, ultimately leaving this mon with an even more narrow variety of viable moves than Gyarados.

The main point that was ever really behind Marshadow being banned was that it annoyed people, which is the same reason why Deoxys-Defense got banned despite not even being considered viable enough for S rank. I'll definitely admit to Marshadow being a good mon, but not good enough to be banworthy, and I'm glad that there are people who can recognize what it actually does contribute to the meta, as opposed to what it can.

Okay, what about dropping Bulk Up for Substitute? Forget the defense EVs.

Just spam Substitute until Gyarados does anything other than non-mega attack. If he Megas or DDs at any point, hit him. If he never Megas or DDs, he probably thinks you're Sub Reversal (which is an option, though I like HJK for up front damage) so just click thunder punch turn 5 and win.

Sure it's still technically a 50/50 if you play the same person over and over, but I think your odds are significantly better vs random opponents.

Waterfall just wins then bro. Your other set is honestly probably the closest thing to countering Gyarados a Blaziken can get.

 

[Uselesscrab]

The main point that was ever really behind Marshadow being banned was that it annoyed people, which is the same reason why Deoxys-Defense got banned despite not even being considered viable enough for S rank. I'll definitely admit to Marshadow being a good mon, but not good enough to be banworthy, and I'm glad that there are people who can recognize what it actually does contribute to the meta, as opposed to what it can.

I am incredibly sick of this reasoning being consistently brought up in this thread. I was planning on making a lengthy post of argumentative tactics I wanted to disallow, and this is one of them. Saying that we banned something because we didn't like it or because "it was annoying" when there are pages upon pages of discussion as to why both of these Pokemon were banworthy (not to mention the fact that Deoxys-D was banned by an overwhelming contingent of suspect votes...) is basically the equivalent of putting your fingers in your ears and chanting "la la la la la..." when someone says something you disagree with.

I can promise you that DEG, TI, and I do not make decisions with this mindset. I'd also like to add that the vast majority of the community was in favor of a Marshadow ban and, as wishes put it, it's ridiculous to bring it up this soon after. We don't reverse suspect decisions according to our mood.

 

[Joker 1v1]

Meet PU 1v1!!!

PU 1v1

Rules: Basically the rules are the same as 1v1 rules, but with the difference of using PU Pokémon rather than the pokemon that are normally used in 1v1. But, there are some exceptions, with the exceptions being pokémon that are in the PU tier and would normally be used, are banned since their usage in the 1v1 metagame is high. For example, Golem is a PU Pokémon, but it's high usage in the 1v1 metagame prevents it from participating in this format.

Since PU is basically a tier for Pokémon not being allowed in this meta, the idea is that Pokémon that have high usage in the 1v1 metagame should not be used since they have a large advantage against other PU Pokémon.The banlist is basically made of PU Pokémon that have usage higher than 100.

Added Clauses: None

Banlist:Aron,Magnemite,Dusclops,Golem,Aggron,Avalugg,Charizard,Carracosta,Crustle,Relicanth,Slaking

Item Banlist: None

List of usable Pokémon: Butterfree,Beedrill,Pidgeot,Raticate,Raticate-Alola, Fearow,Arbok,Pikachu-(Original,Hoenn,Sinnoh,Unova,Kalos,Alola),Sandslash,Ninetales, Parasect,Dugtrio-Alola,Persian,Persian-alola,Poliwrath,Victreebell,Rapidash,Farfetch'd,Dewgong,Muk,Hypno,Kingler,Electrode,Exeggutor, Executor-alola,Marowak,Hitmonchan,Weezing,Kangaskhan,Seaking,Mr.Mime,Jynx,Pinsir,Kabutops, Articuno,Meganium,Furret,Noctowl,Ledian,Ariados,Lanturn,Bellossom,Politoed,Sunflora,Unown,Wobbuffet,Girafarig,Dunsparce,Granbull,Quilfish,Magcargo,Corsola,Octillery,Delibird,Stantler,Mightyena,Beautifly, Dustox,Ludicolo,Shiftry,Masquerain,Ninjask,Delcatty,Mawile,Manectric,Plusle,Minun,Volbeat,Illumise, Swalot,Wailord,Camerupt,Grumpig,Spinda,Cacturne,Altaria,Zangoose,Seviper,Lunatone,Solrock, Whiscash,Cradily,Armaldo,Castform,Kecleon,Banette,Tropius,Chimecho,Absol,Glalie,Walrein,Huntail, Gorebyss,Luvdisc,Regice,Torterra,Bibarel,Kricketune,Luxray,Rampardos,Bastiodon,Wormadam, Wormadam-Sandy,Wormadam-Trash,Mothim,Vespiquen,Pachirisu,Floatzel,Cherrim,Drifblim,Lopunny, Purugly,Skuntank,Chatot,Carnivine,Lumineon,Abomasnow,Lickilicky,Magmortar,Leafeon,Glaceon, Probopass,Dusknoir, Rotom-Frost,Rotom-Fan,Mespirit,Regigigas,Phione,Watchog,Stoutland,Liepard, Simisage,Simisear,Simipour,Musharna,Unfezant,Zebstrika,Swoobat,Audino,Throh,Leavanny,Lilligant, Basculin,Basculin-Blue-Striped,Maractus,Archeops,Gothitelle,Swanna,Sawsbuck,Emolga, Eelektross,Beheeyem, Beartic,Golurk,Bouffalant, Heatmor,Gogoat,Meowstic,Meowstic-F,Dedenne,Carbink,Trevenant,Gourgeist, Toucannon,Gumshoos,Crabominable,Oricorio-(Normal Form,Pom-Pom,Pa'u,Sensu),Lycanroc,Lycanroc-Midnight,Wishiwashi,Mudsdale,Lurantis, Shiinotic,Oranguru,Passimian,Palossand,Silvally-(Bug,Dark,Dragon,Electric,Fairy,Fighting,Fire,Flying, Ghost,Grass,Ground,Ice,Normal,Poison,Psychic,Rock,Steel, Water), Komala,Turtonator,Drampa,Guzzlord

Also by default, all NFE and LC Pokemon are allowed except:
Aron,Magnemite,Dusclops

And to make things easier.....
Usable Pokemon (by Type):
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

(all forms except normal)

(all formes allowed)
And all NFE and LC Pokemon except:

Latest news

Since people actually liked this idea, as I promised I will update this list every month and also (as some of you have already noticed) new pokemon have been added in this list for testing. These pokemon and every pokemon on the list will be tested in tours(hopefully) and will be judged if they are broken or not. Also a speed tier by motogp and me will be up soon

threatlist

A possible threatlist of pokemon that i think they might be broken is:
-Type: Null and Silvally: In my opinion Type: Null can be broken with its good stats and access to eviolite but its gonna be unbanned for further testing. Silvally, on the other hand, doesn't seem so dangerous since it doesn't have access to eviolite and setting up is more difficult, so normal Silvally is also unbanned for now.
-Butterfree:I personally think Butterfree won't be really broken since there is a large number of grass types (and some insomnia pokemon) to make sleep powder useless, as well as a lot of electric and flying types that are widely known for their good speed stats and they have also good stab moves against it.
-Carbink:Sturdy users are really usefull in 1v1 but Carbink doesnt need sturdy, its strength is its defenses that can make it a threat and without as many hard hitting pokemon to kill it, it can be really annoying.
-Zangoose:Talking about hard hitting, toxic boost Zangoose has the ability to make its attack raise in incredible levels in order to win against other pokemon. This pokemon is actually a huge threat for anyone going against it and I advise everyone to have some type of a counter in their team.
-Altaria: Even if it's not mega, Altaria still posseses the ability to set up either its defenses or its attack and speed, while being able to also have the element of surprise as it can run physical and special sets.
-Kangashkan:Scrappie,Good attack and Hp stat make this pokemon a threat on the field as it also gets recovery with wish.
-Musharna: Musharna in my opinion is completely broken, especially in 1v1. In PU its bulky nature and its ability to set up its stats and then attack with stored power, while having access to recovery makes it a huge threat and in 1v1, where pokemon cannot use whirlwind and they are almost never equipes with moves like haze, this threat is becoming even more powerfull. (For everyone's knowledge, Musharna was almost banned from regular PU until its council decided by 1 vote that it shouldn't be banned)
-Pikachu: Lightball Pikachu can be frustrating since it already has good speed and with doubled attack it can be a real attacking threat

I hope this post was usefull!!!

Item Banlist: None......SASH IS BACK!

 

[Joker 1v1]

So...there has been talk of unbanning Deoxys-Base Form-Normal-Twizzler Arms. I don't like the idea. But maybe that's just me. I know some people are dead set on unbanning it. But people also want to unban Zekrom, -shrugs- whatever...Anyways. Its basically Phermosa but way better. Way more viable moves. It also beats Gengar, and that would make DEG sad. Don't make DEG sad. Talk to DEG, be his friend. And ya.....post. For the Attacks I grouped the typings together so the post wouldn't be so long. Enjoy. Or don't. I'll probably cry either way :/ Thanks, I guess...*ramble ramble*....gone...idk how to end this. Bye? Hmm...that new UB-Burst pokemon is a jester/clown. I'm a clown...my poke. Dibbs...if I can. Um if I can't I'll be upset...I'm still rambling. You are still reading this. Post time :)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

<------Banned Not Banned-------->

-Psyco Boost/Psychic/Psyshock/Mirror Coat -Hyper Beam
-Focus Blast -Focus Blast
-Zap Cannon/Thunder/Thunder Bolt -Blizzard/Ice Beam
-Grass Knot/Energy Ball -Bug Buzz
-Ice Beam -Hp (_____)
-Shadow Ball
-Dark Pulse
-Flash Cannon -Giga Impact/Return/Frustration/Facade/Stomp/Fient
-Signal Beam -High Jump Kick/Low Kick/Jump Kick
-Hp (_____) -Fling
-Lunge
-Counter/Seismic Toss/Focus Punch/Low Kick/Superpower -Poison Jab
/Dynamic Punch/Drain Punch/Power-Up Punch -Bounce

-Giga Impact/Mega Kick/Double-Edge/Return/Frustration
/Body Slam/Extreme Speed/Headbutt/Facade -Roost
-Me First
-Fling/Knock off -Protect
-Meteor Mash -Substitute
-Zen Headbutt -Taunt
-Poison Jab -Torment
-Fire Punch -Sleep Talk
-Rock Slide/Rock Tomb -Quiver Dance
-Ice Punch
-Thunder Punch
-Aerial Ace

-Taunt
-Substitute
-Recover
-Calm Mind
-Trick
-Torment
-Thunder Wave
-Reflect
-Light Screen
-Iron Defense
-Amnesia
-Cosmic Power
-Protect
-Endure
-Recycle

 

[Yung Dramps]

You know, I was going to make a lengthy response to Glyx's most recent post describing why it's one of, if not the worst post I have ever seen in the 1v1 forum, but I decided against it at the last minute. Why? Because it isn't worth it.

Right now, we got two somewhat relevant community members advocating for a Marshadow unban, being Glyx and motogp. Everybody else? Hell no.

Simply put, it's not happening. Your best bet for a Marshadow unban is hoping the meta in US/UM shifts so dramatically with new mons/move tutors that it warrants re-tests for certain banned mons, and then try to advocate for Marsh.

And with that said, for the love of god, can we please end this stupid, toxic, useless discussion and move back to either discussing the Deoxys unban or something else entirely? At least those can lead to interesting discussion and actually allow us to work together and have friendly debates as a community.

 

[Elo Bandit]

>Marshadow unban

Just...why. We've already seen the Marsh metagame, it's a nightmare. I've said everything I can in the video linked above, not gonna re-state all my points here.

Meanwhile, I have yet to hear a single convincing argument against the unbanning of Darkrai or Zygarde-Complete, a couple of the first pokemon to ever be suggested for unban. Both of these are less powerful than Deoxys, KyuremB, and Marshadow, and the general consensus (at least from what I've seen) is that they'd be a good fit for the metagame. Darkrai acts as a customizable wallbreaker/Gyarados check similar to Tapu Koko. Zygarde boosts up a bit with Coil or DD then gets health back from Complete form as it spams Outrage or Thousand Arrows. Both of these pokemon have plenty of checks, Zygarde-C loses to pretty much all the same stuff as regular Zygarde, Garchomp, and Dragonite. Darkrai has no sleep mechanic left hypnosis lol (and a useless ability) so it's got plenty of checks while still beating relevant pokemon and having multiple viable sets.

 

[The Official Glyx]

I am incredibly sick of this reasoning being consistently brought up in this thread. I was planning on making a lengthy post of argumentative tactics I wanted to disallow, and this is one of them. Saying that we banned something because we didn't like it or because "it was annoying" when there are pages upon pages of discussion as to why both of these Pokemon were banworthy (not to mention the fact that Deoxys-D was banned by an overwhelming contingent of suspect votes...) is basically the equivalent of putting your fingers in your ears and chanting "la la la la la..." when someone says something you disagree with.

I can promise you that DEG, TI, and I do not make decisions with this mindset. I'd also like to add that the vast majority of the community was in favor of a Marshadow ban and, as wishes put it, it's ridiculous to bring it up this soon after. We don't reverse suspect decisions according to our mood.

I can say I believe there was insufficient (if any) reasoning and that it was mostly based on opinions and statistics founded upon opinions that got them banned if it makes you happier. Regardless, there was a lot more bias against Deoxys and Marshadow at the time, since Deoxys' suspect came much too shortly after the banning of accuracy-lowering moves, giving the meta hardly any time to settle, resulting in accuracy-lowering Deoxys still being the set that comes to mind when you think of Deoxys.

As for Marshadow, I unfortunately have to repeat myself, the boon in popularity that just about any new mon gets right after they've been released pushed Marshadow way further than its actual viability would allow it. Moreover, the community wasn't even solidly certain as to whether Marshadow should be banned or not, and if they seemed like they were, it was only because of some people spreading misinformation about how it beats 70~ % of the meta. Ultimately, I don't believe the dictator ban was the way to go here. These kinds of moderation should only be used for either changing mechanics/clauses/etc or obvious things like Perish Song or Mega Rayquaza, not for something that can be debated and even WAS being debated.

That said, you probably have your own way of running things that is likely very different from mine, which I suppose would mean we've arrived at an impasse where neither one of us will be "right". I apologize for displeasing you, but I intend on staying with my belief that we need to outline a new definitive point in which a mon or concept becomes too overcentralizing or "broken". I say a new point because we technically already have one, being half or more of the meta, but since there are already multiple other mons that have reached and surpassed this point, it likely isn't too relevant for modern day 1v1. I believe something closer to beating 60-70% of the meta would be fair for being considered broken, either way, having a point like this (and stressing how important it is) would help to provide potential suspect voters a basic idea of how they should go about deciding their votes, as well as cut back on all the arguments of "X 50/50's Y and Z, therefore X is broken".

For what it's worth, I'll try to make less volatilely-worded posts in the future, but I still intend on spreading the mathematical truth where I have to, and my own two cents otherwise, as well as making my best efforts to clarify between the two when necessary.

 

[Yung Dramps]

>Marshadow unban

Just...why. We've already seen the Marsh metagame, it's a nightmare. I've said everything I can in the video linked above, not gonna re-state all my points here.

Meanwhile, I have yet to hear a single convincing argument against the unbanning of Darkrai or Zygarde-Complete, a couple of the first pokemon to ever be suggested for unban. Both of these are less powerful than Deoxys, KyuremB, and Marshadow, and the general consensus (at least from what I've seen) is that they'd be a good fit for the metagame. Darkrai acts as a customizable wallbreaker/Gyarados check similar to Tapu Koko. Zygarde boosts up a bit with Coil or DD then gets health back from Complete form as it spams Outrage or Thousand Arrows. Both of these pokemon have plenty of checks, Zygarde-C loses to pretty much all the same stuff as regular Zygarde, Garchomp, and Dragonite. Darkrai has no sleep mechanic left hypnosis lol (and a useless ability) so it's got plenty of checks while still beating relevant pokemon and having multiple viable sets.

Gotta disagree with you with the whole "hypnosis is useless on darkrai" argument. Unlike Mega Gengar (which itself can run Hypnosis with some success) Darkrai can run something like Wide Lens to sort of patch up that mediocre accuracy, and it can also set up with Nasty Plot, or use items like Life Orb/Z-move. Also, assuming you land Hypnosis, Bad Dreams is not useless at all, allowing for easier KOes against stuff like bulky Megazard X. DEG made a pretty good post explaining all this in more detail.

I've already shared my advocacy for unbanning Deoxys, and I was originally on the fence about unbanning Zygarde-C, but now I'm leaning more towards an unban. But Darkrai is a no-no for me.

#FreeMrNoodle

 

[Elo Bandit]

Gotta disagree with you with the whole "hypnosis is useless on darkrai" argument. Unlike Mega Gengar (which itself can run Hypnosis with some success) Darkrai can run something like Wide Lens to sort of patch up that mediocre accuracy, and it can also set up with Nasty Plot, or use items like Life Orb/Z-move. Also, assuming you land Hypnosis, Bad Dreams is not useless at all, allowing for easier KOes against stuff like bulky Megazard X. DEG made a pretty good post explaining all this in more detail.

I've already shared my advocacy for unbanning Deoxys, and I was originally on the fence about unbanning Zygarde-C, but now I'm leaning more towards an unban. But Darkrai is a no-no for me.

#FreeMrNoodle

Sorry, what? Do you know how many Pokemon get Hypnosis? Are you seriously advocating Wide Lens as the factor that busts Darkrai? Look at Crobat - it can also "run something like Wide Lens to sort of patch up that mediocre accuracy, and it can also set up with Nasty Plot, or use items like Life Orb/Z-move" but that doesn't mean its broken, or even good. Darkrai is good because it has a unique and strong combination of typing, stats, and coverage that let it go toe to toe with the rest of the metagame without relying on a 60 I'm sorry, 66 percent accurate cheese move.

If you could link deg's post that'd be great.

 

[Uselesscrab]

I can say I believe there was insufficient (if any) reasoning and that it was mostly based on opinions and statistics founded upon opinions that got them banned if it makes you happier. Regardless, there was a lot more bias against Deoxys and Marshadow at the time, since Deoxys' suspect came much too shortly after the banning of accuracy-lowering moves, giving the meta hardly any time to settle, resulting in accuracy-lowering Deoxys still being the set that comes to mind when you think of Deoxys.

You're right that maybe the suspect was interfered with by the ban of accuracy-reducing moves. But people still had to take time to ladder for reqs and experience the metagame in its new state. And with that being the case, obviously a no-longer-legal set wouldn't "come to mind."

As for Marshadow, I unfortunately have to repeat myself, the boon in popularity that just about any new mon gets right after they've been released pushed Marshadow way further than its actual viability would allow it. Moreover, the community wasn't even solidly certain as to whether Marshadow should be banned or not, and if they seemed like they were, it was only because of some people spreading misinformation about how it beats 70~ % of the meta.

Nothing happened "right after" it was released. Don't you remember DEG urging caution repeatedly as people were crying to ban it immediately? The metagame was given time to adapt. Unfortunately, that adaptation manifested itself in unpleasant ways, and Marshadow warped teambuilding significantly. And as far as the numbers are concerned, speak for yourself. It's unfair to characterize most voters' decision-making processes based on what you assume they relied on to make their decisions.

Ultimately, I don't believe the dictator ban was the way to go here. These kinds of moderation should only be used for either changing mechanics/clauses/etc or obvious things like Perish Song or Mega Rayquaza, not for something that can be debated and even WAS being debated.

This is just a difference of opinion. There's plenty of precedent for quickbanning in a variety of formats. Perish Song was debated, too, and you don't seem to have a problem with that quickban. Consider that some people might see Marshadow the way you see Perish Song.

That said, you probably have your own way of running things that is likely very different from mine, which I suppose would mean we've arrived at an impasse where neither one of us will be "right". I apologize for displeasing you, but I intend on staying with my belief that we need to outline a new definitive point in which a mon or concept becomes too overcentralizing or "broken". I say a new point because we technically already have one, being half or more of the meta, but since there are already multiple other mons that have reached and surpassed this point, it likely isn't too relevant for modern day 1v1. I believe something closer to beating 60-70% of the meta would be fair for being considered broken, either way, having a point like this (and stressing how important it is) would help to provide potential suspect voters a basic idea of how they should go about deciding their votes, as well as cut back on all the arguments of "X 50/50's Y and Z, therefore X is broken".

This isn't related to your above argument about how we banned things for being annoying in the slightest, so I'm not sure why it's in this post. But I'll address it regardless: there is not and will never be a mathematical percentage that equates to brokenness. This reminds me of something I see Gojira Poo saying a lot in the 1v1 room, which is that we have to decide how powerful we want the meta to be overall by drawing a line somewhere. Unfortunately, brokenness is a purely subjective criterion. We just have to do the best we can to reach a consensus. Mathematical solutions are problematic as well because you have to deal with, as you rightly pointed out, incorporating a Pokemon's viability into the percentage by weighting it somehow. Let's just try to stay away from this territory.

For what it's worth, I'll try to make less volatilely-worded posts in the future, but I still intend on spreading the mathematical truth where I have to, and my own two cents otherwise, as well as making my best efforts to clarify between the two when necessary.

Once again, this issue had nothing to do with mathematical truth. But I am sorry for singling you out regardless. I had seen similar reasoning from other well-respected users like Kentari and just wanted to set the record straight.

edit: I realize that the suspect philosophy contains a line about beating more than half of the metagame, as Glyx quite rightly points out. I believe that it might be worthwhile to rework the suspect philosophy a bit in the future, but also I was basing my line about percentages on the general policies of other tiers and OMs.

 

[lost heros]

I can't believe I have to make a post about why not to unban Deo-N.

OPERATION 'SALVUM FACERE' (UNBAN DEOXYS)

Hey there 1v1, this is Whammerist with yet another forum post about another potential 1v1 suspect. However, please don't skip this one, as I genuinely believe that this unban will not only add a really cool mon into the tier but also help rebalance a lot of factors that seem to be frustrating some of my fellow 1v1 players.

OVERVIEW
So first things first, let's give a brief overview on what Deoxys-Base is as a mon and what a 1v1 with it unbanned might look like.

It's very obviously a glass cannon in a similar vain to Tapu Koko and PorygonZ,
​

Let me stop you right here. Deo-N isn't like Tapu Koko or Porygon-Z. Tapu Koko has virtually no coverage moves and is a Stall breaker/nuke hybrid that likes to use Charge, Taunt, and Substitute to break through mons. For Koko to be an offensive mon like Deo-N, it would have to have significantly better coverage so that it could reasonably run Specs, Band, or even Life Orb instead of just Electrium Z. Porygon-Z, however, is not only significantly slower that it must reasonably run Scarf (while Deo-N could have its pick of items), but it's also strictly special (while Deo-N isn't).

thought it doesn't really take me to tell you that. However, you've also got a lot of coverage as compared to those other nuking mons, along with the capabilities of going mixed. Bear in mind coverage choices like Ice Beam, Energy Ball, Extreme Speed, Focus Blast, Poison Jab, Knock Off, Superpower, Rock Slide, Fire Punch (no special fire moves), etc. 50/50/50 bulk however leads to the glass part of cannon, where Deoxys demonstrates it can pretty much take no hits.

You say that, but it can also run Psychium Z Dual Screens, which if you know your matchups can prevent certain OHKOs and 2HKOs into 3HKOs, which is devastating.

However, this is all pretty face value stuff. What you might be concerned about, though, is its brokenness in the tier, however when examining the mon it should become very clear it is in fact not broken.

CHECKS AND COUNTERS
So what beats this thing?
Well here's the list, short and simple:
Mega Gyarados, Max Scarf Kyurem-Black, Scarf PorygonZ, Snorlax, Metagross-M, Mawile-M, Magearna, Mimikyu, Aegislash, Donphan, Super Stall Altaria-M, Blaziken-M (non Z move), Scarf Garchomp, Golem, Meloetta, Tapu Fini (with improved bulk), Carracosta, Crustle, Gardevoir-M, Jirachi, Scarf Kartana, Sawk, Swampert-M, Scarf Durant, Scarf Lati@s, Mew, Pheramosa, Scarf Hoopa-U, Scarf Landorus, Sableye-M, Scarf Victini, Dusclops, Hitmonlee, Scarf Infernape, Scarf Nihilego.

​

Hide

Mega Gyarados is a 50/(almost)50 against Choice Specs Deoxys-N.
You have to run more than 248 HP/ 60 SpD Gyara for Base Gyara to even stand a chance of living a Modest Specs Psycho Boost, if you want to not mega every time and avoid Focus Blasts KOing Mega

Scarf Kyurem-B outspeeds only when running at least speed positive nature and 160 Spe EVs to Out Speed Timid DeoN which is incredibly restrictive.

Scarf Porygon-Z
I could make several stretches, but I won't because this is a fairly obvious check.

Snorlax has a hard time bulking Choice Band and Life Orb Superpowers from Physical Deo-N's.

Mega Metagross has to invest a lot of bulk to survive Choice Specs Dark Pulse and Z-Reflect makes Meteor Mash an OHKO to a 3HKO giving Deo-N the win.

Mega Mawile vs Reflect Deo-N is a 50/50 on whether or not to Sucker Punch or Play Rough vs Reflect or Shattered Psych

Magearna can beat Deo-N well enough.

Aegislash beats Specs without a hiccup, but it has a weird 50/50 with Psychium Z. It's a choice between Dark Pulse or Z-Screen vs Never ending Nightmare or Shadow Sneak.
Donphan has a roughly 50% chance of KOing Z-Reflect Deo-N with Tectonic Rage and EQ or else it loses to Psycho Boost + Extreme Speed.

Mega Altaria needs a heck ton of Special Defense to survive a Shattered Psych

Mega Blaziken just dies to Shattered Psych.

Scarf Garchomp works

Golem has a roughly 50% chance of KOing a Z-Reflect Deo-N with Z move and Earthquake or Stone Edge or else it loses to Psycho Boost + Extreme Speed

Meloetta can't break Z-Light Screen Deo-N KOs with Dark Pulse

Tapu Fini can't break Light Screen Deo-N

Carracosta can't break Z-Reflect Deo-N and is KOed by Psycho Boost Extreme Speed

Crustle can break Z-Reflect Deo-N like 80% of the time

Mega Gardevoir just muscles past Z-Light Screen thanks to Pixilate

​

Hide

Ew Jirachi

Scarf Kartana works, but then again, it's Scarf Kartana

Sawk can't break Z-Reflect and is KOed by the usual Psycho Boost + Extreme Speed

Mega Swampert has to be very defensive if it wants to pull of Yawn/Protect Shenanigans, has to predict for CounterCoat, or gets bodied by Z-reflect. Overall in MegaPert's favor but not a counter

Scarf Durant works 80% of the time.

Scarf Lati@s works

Mew gets bodied by Z-Light Screen, eaten by Dark Pulse, and I don't really know how it can even beat Specs DeoN

Pheromosa usually works, but physically biased Life Orbs and Bands can cheese wins with ESpeed

Scarf Hoopa-U is fine.

Scarf Landorus is fine

Mega Sableye is fine

Scarf Vicitini works

Dusclops can lose to Choice Specs Dark Pulse

Hitmonlee loses to Espeed

Scarf Infernape works but doesn't use scarf typically

Scarf Nihilego has trouble KOing 252 HP DeoN, with only a 75% chance to KO with Modest Sludge Wave.​

​

I tried not to be too extreme, i.e. Mixed Scarf DeoN and really only used a few sets. Speed minimized Max HP remaining SpA Single/Dual Screen with Psycho Boost, Dark Pulse or Focus Blast, And Extreme Speed with Psychium Z alongside Choice Specs DeoN and Life Orb Mixed DeoN. Overall DeoN's only real counters are Scarf Pokemon, which it could theoretically beat with a Mixed Scarf.

Wait, that's not short at all! Let's examine why this list is so plentiful, and prove why Deoxys-Base doesn't deserve to stay banned.

​

BALANCE OVERVIEW
​

• 150 ATTACKING STATS DOESN'T GRAB CRUCIAL KILLS

Put simply, Deoxys-B is balanced when Deoxys-A isn't because 150 attacking stats doesn't isn't enough to grab some of the kills you need with your coverage.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Deoxys Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Snorlax: 442-520 (84.3 - 99.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Deoxys Thunder vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Gyarados-Mega: 332-392 (84.2 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Deoxys Dark Pulse / Shadow Ball vs. 192 HP / 0 SpD Metagross-Mega: 294-348 (84.2 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
​

These calcs seem VERY cherrypicked and strange because it doesn't list all scenarios. These only really look at Choice Specs DeoN against some very bulky pokemon. Furthermore, these pokemon also have significant investment and aren't perfect. For example, a Life Orb Superpower DeoN could beat Snorlax and a Choice Specs Focus Blast forces MGyara into a 50/50 if it doesn't run that bulk.

• 150 SPEED DOESN'T OUTPACE OUR COMMON SCARFERS

Another issue with Deoxys-B is its speed. While it's very fast, isn't not fast enough to outpace our scarfers, and thus can't get far enough up the speed tiers to be "broken".

438: Deoxys-Base (max)
441: Fast Pheromosa
445: Scarf Genesect
459: Scarf PorygonZ
475: Scarf Kartana
475: Scarf Kyurem-Black
489: Scarf Genesect
492: Scarf Jirachi
492: Scarf Victini
496: Scarf Landorus
499: Scarf Garchomp
504: Deoxys-Speed
514: Scarf Greninja
522: Scarf Kartana
565: Scarf Greninja
​

Honestly, I think your assessment of DeoN's Speed tier is inaccurate. There are 9 pokemon that can run a scarf and outspeed DeoN. (Two regular pokemon naturally outspeed it.) And most of these are speed overkill. Scarf Garchomp had a 19% usage last month, Kartana 7%, Greninja 6%, Landorus 5%. These aren't typical Scarf Pokemon. And it's important to note as well that Scarf PZ and Scarf KyuB also don't run Max Speed as represented here, which they would be forced to do to outspeed DeoN.

​

• NO WAY TO BREAK STURDIES

Lastly, any Sturdy mon can beat Deoxys as well, since it has no Fake Out and it can't survive a single hit from them.
0 Atk Mimikyu Twinkle Tackle (175 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys: 298-352 (123.6 - 146%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(RIP)
​

Z-Screens is good.

SALVUM FACERE (TO SAVE)
Okay, so how does this 'save' 1v1? It's a bit of overstatement, I won't lie, but the introduction of Deoxys-B to the metagame undoubtedly has some positive effects if you look at the bigger picture. Firstly, with both it and its counters being more commonly used, it brings down the usage of a lot of mons people are frustrated with. Let's look at the suspect mons this mon nerfs.

Kyurem-Black: Beats all sets except Scarf, and inspires the use of mons like MGyara, Steel-types and scarfers like Chomp, Victini, Kartana, etc which counter both Deoxys and Kyurem.

Except not really. If Scarf Kyurem-B can run around, ANY Kyurem-B can run around just due to the nature of Kyurem-B. It's item versatility is so high, that unless a pokemon shuts down it's top sets, it doesn't really impact KyuB that much because KyuB can change sets easily to CTeam and bluff a Scarf even if it doesn't have it.

Jirachi: Inspires the usage of pretty much all of its counters, like steels and faster scarfers.
​

Except it also inspires the use of Jirachi because Jirachi is one of its few explicit counters

Scarf Togekiss: Same as Jirachi, except Deoxys also beats this mon.
​

While technically correct, this argument hinges on the fact that Togekiss sees good amounts of play. It had 0.6% usage last month, almost entirely because Jirachi is almost as strictly better than it than any pokemon could possibly be strictly better than.

Jumpluff: Not only does it beat Jumpluff, but also inspires fast scarfer usage and use of Donphan.
Gengar-M: Pretty much same as Jumpluff.
​

I have a couple mathematical issues with the anger against Jumpluff, but there are so many counters to it and Mega Gengar that I honestly don't think we need to introduce a counter for either. The 1v1 community just needs to get good.

Snorlax: Could work as a neat lure w/ Band and something like Superpower, Zen Headbutt, elemental punches, Knock, and also inspires use of counters like steels and some sturdies.
​

Except Snorlax is a check, a loose one albeit, but a check nonetheless, meaning Deoxys wouldn't cause a direct decrease in usage on Snorlax. Also Snorlax doesn't mind sturdies if it can just Sleep Hax them.

Not only is Deoxys a very cool unban, but it's also clear that it balances a lot of the mons people are currently discussing suspects of.

​

What you're saying right here is my real issue. What you're proposing here is essentially "We have a couple of potentially ban-worthy pokemon, instead of banning them, let's introduce another one". WHICH IS BAD. I imagine if Rumple read that sentence he would freak out so so much. Broken pokemon (and others) aren't and shouldn't be dealt by introducing more broken pokemon, they should be dealt with via bans. Not only is it simpler and less likely to have drastic consequences, but it also prevents power creep. This is why Glyx made the satirical post about unbanning other pokemon, because at its core almost all broken pokemon could be theoretically balanced by each other until they are the meta and considered standard.

Keep in mind that the unban also has the effect of somewhat reducing ZMove usage, shifting focus to a lot of megas like Gyara, Metagross, Mawile, Gardevoir, Swampert, etc. Overall, I think the shift of the meta away from gimmickier mechanics like sleep and flinch without outright banning them is a really great way to handle these issues that are being raised. Not only that, but Deoxys-B also shifts the meta towards bulky mons/megas like Magearna, MGyara, Gardevoir, Meloetta, and fast scarfers like PZ, Victini, Garchomp, by both being countered by those mons and Deoxys being a great supporter to those mons like being a good check to a lot of gimmicky things that might harm them. When examining the change Deoxys-B will most likely cause to the meta, I overall believe it will be very much positive.

Overall, I think we should definitely consider an unban of the base forme of Deoxys, for the reasons listed above. Thank you for reading, and I'm very excited to see the discussion this creates :3

One of Kentari's Cardinal Rules of 1v1 went something like this: Bulky Offense will always be the best playstyle in 1v1. It's not really necessary to shift the meta back towards Bulky Megas because honestly, they're still the dominant force in the metagame.

I know this is an old topic and the new trend is to criticize motogp for saying unban Marshadow but I’d like to put in my opinion on the issue.


Let’s get this out of the way, yes a I am pro unban Deoxys Base. No I’m not Whammerist’s pawn here to support him in everything he says but I feel it is a good idea. I’m not going to post calcs in this response but I would like to address a few issues I see with people supporting or opposing Deoxys.

1. STOP COMPARING IT TO OTHER POKEMON. I’m not anti unban some of the mons Glyx mentioned in their post BUT to compare unbanning Deoxys Base to Deoxys Defence/Attack or Marshadow is absolutely absurd. To quote Whammerist “Put simply, Deoxys-B is balanced when Deoxys-A isn't because 150 attacking stats doesn't isn't enough to grab some of the kills you need with your coverage.” His argument literally consists of saying to not unban Deoxys Attack because it is broken. So don’t use Deoxys Base as an excuse to get your Pokemon of choice unbanned.
   
   
2. I recently watched a discussion video featuring Whammerist, Kentari, Party, and Joker which opened my eyes to the possibility of unbans/bans. This however is not the point, the point is that near the end Kentari says “If a Pokemon is worse than Kyurem-Black then obviously it should be in 1v1.” I would argue that Deoxys Base is worse, possibly much worse, than Kyurem-Black. As stated before in previous calcs, it has more counters and beats much less.

If you are not convinced by my arguments or past ones on this thread I understand that you most definitely will never be convinced. But I ask you this, what would be wrong with suspecting Deoxys Base? Would it hurt to do so? I think not.

I know it seems kind of weird to both quote and criticize Kentari from one line to the next, but I'm going to do it anyways. I know Kentari likes to think of Pokemon in the "is this pokemon better or worse than this one", but that's a very flawed way of thinking. Pokemon isn't like poker. There's not many things that are strictly better than other things. So by asking is something better or worse than Kyurem-B, the answer will almost always be yes and no. For example, Kyurem-B can't deal with Mega Blaziken that well. A Scarf KyuB is is outsped and KO'd, while a Icium Z set isn't strong enough. This forces KyuB into an unoptimal set (usually Specs) if it wants to beat Mega Blaziken. In comparison, Deoxys-N can easily beat Mega Blaziken thanks to Psychium Z which is a strong set on its own. Does that make DeoN better than Kyurem-B? Are both better than Mega Blaziken? Not really. Viability rankings exist not to quantify a power level for pokemon, but rather to kinda sorta illustrate that some pokemon perform well against others and are more likely to be used. This means you're more likely to flesh out a team or build a team around an S ranked pokemon than you are a D rank pokemon (or god forbid Do Not Use Pokemon like lost hero). In this sense, it's very difficult to tell whether or not Deoxys-N "is better or worse than" Kyurem-B. Deoxys-N can easily be used to be a blanket counter to a large group of pokemon with one set or a different group with another. And it also can be supported by many pokemon as its flaws can be patched up with bulk.

Edit: Whammermist pointed out that Aegi is actually a 50/50 against Psychium Z DeoN

 

[Ruby.boi]

You're right that maybe the suspect was interfered with by the ban of accuracy-reducing moves. But people still had to take time to ladder for reqs and experience the metagame in its new state. And with that being the case, obviously a no-longer-legal set wouldn't "come to mind."



Nothing happened "right after" it was released. Don't you remember DEG urging caution repeatedly as people were crying to ban it immediately? The metagame was given time to adapt. Unfortunately, that adaptation manifested itself in unpleasant ways, and Marshadow warped teambuilding significantly. And as far as the numbers are concerned, speak for yourself. It's unfair to characterize most voters' decision-making processes based on what you assume they relied on to make their decisions.



This is just a difference of opinion. There's plenty of precedent for quickbanning in a variety of formats. Perish Song was debated, too, and you don't seem to have a problem with that quickban. Consider that some people might see Marshadow the way you see Perish Song.



This isn't related to your above argument about how we banned things for being annoying in the slightest, so I'm not sure why it's in this post. But I'll address it regardless: there is not and will never be a mathematical percentage that equates to brokenness. This reminds me of something I see Gojira Poo saying a lot in the 1v1 room, which is that we have to decide how powerful we want the meta to be overall by drawing a line somewhere. Unfortunately, brokenness is a purely subjective criterion. We just have to do the best we can to reach a consensus. Mathematical solutions are problematic as well because you have to deal with, as you rightly pointed out, incorporating a Pokemon's viability into the percentage by weighting it somehow. Let's just try to stay away from this territory.



Once again, this issue had nothing to do with mathematical truth. But I am sorry for singling you out regardless. I had seen similar reasoning from other well-respected users like Kentari and just wanted to set the record straight.

edit: I realize that the suspect philosophy contains a line about beating more than half of the metagame, as Glyx quite rightly points out. I believe that it might be worthwhile to rework the suspect philosophy a bit in the future, but also I was basing my line about percentages on the general policies of other tiers and OMs.

Yeah unban normal deoxys what would go wrong right?

 

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I can't believe I have to make a post about why not to unban Deo-N.

Let me stop you right here. Deo-N isn't like Tapu Koko or Porygon-Z. Tapu Koko has virtually no coverage moves and is a Stall breaker/nuke hybrid that likes to use Charge, Taunt, and Substitute to break through mons. For Koko to be an offensive mon like Deo-N, it would have to have significantly better coverage so that it could reasonably run Specs, Band, or even Life Orb instead of just Electrium Z. Porygon-Z, however, is not only significantly slower that it must reasonably run Scarf (while Deo-N could have its pick of items), but it's also strictly special (while Deo-N isn't). You say that, but it can also run Psychium Z Dual Screens, which if you know your matchups can prevent certain OHKOs and 2HKOs into 3HKOs, which is devastating.

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Mega Gyarados is a 50/(almost)50 against Choice Specs Deoxys-N.
You have to run more than 248 HP/ 60 SpD Gyara for Base Gyara to even stand a chance of living a Modest Specs Psycho Boost, if you want to not mega every time and avoid Focus Blasts KOing Mega

Scarf Kyurem-B outspeeds only when running at least speed positive nature and 160 Spe EVs to Out Speed Timid DeoN which is incredibly restrictive.

Scarf Porygon-Z
I could make several stretches, but I won't because this is a fairly obvious check.

Snorlax has a hard time bulking Choice Band and Life Orb Superpowers from Physical Deo-N's.

Mega Metagross has to invest a lot of bulk to survive Choice Specs Dark Pulse and Z-Reflect makes Meteor Mash an OHKO to a 3HKO giving Deo-N the win.

Mega Mawile vs Reflect Deo-N is a 50/50 on whether or not to Sucker Punch or Play Rough vs Reflect or Shattered Psych

Magearna can beat Deo-N well enough.

Adamant Shadow Sneak Aegislash Blade is a 50% roll against max HP DeoN, while Dark Pulse blows it out of the water.

Donphan has a roughly 50% chance of KOing Z-Reflect Deo-N with Tectonic Rage and EQ or else it loses to Psycho Boost + Extreme Speed.

Mega Altaria needs a heck ton of Special Defense to survive a Shattered Psych

Mega Blaziken just dies to Shattered Psych.

Scarf Garchomp works

Golem has a roughly 50% chance of KOing a Z-Reflect Deo-N with Z move and Earthquake or Stone Edge or else it loses to Psycho Boost + Extreme Speed

Meloetta can't break Z-Light Screen Deo-N KOs with Dark Pulse

Tapu Fini can't break Light Screen Deo-N

Carracosta can't break Z-Reflect Deo-N and is KOed by Psycho Boost Extreme Speed

Crustle can break Z-Reflect Deo-N like 80% of the time

Mega Gardevoir just muscles past Z-Light Screen thanks to Pixilate

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Ew Jirachi

Scarf Kartana works, but then again, it's Scarf Kartana

Sawk can't break Z-Reflect and is KOed by the usual Psycho Boost + Extreme Speed

Mega Swampert has to be very defensive if it wants to pull of Yawn/Protect Shenanigans, has to predict for CounterCoat, or gets bodied by Z-reflect. Overall in MegaPert's favor but not a counter

Scarf Durant works 80% of the time.

Scarf Lati@s works

Mew gets bodied by Z-Light Screen, eaten by Dark Pulse, and I don't really know how it can even beat Specs DeoN

Pheromosa usually works, but physically biased Life Orbs and Bands can cheese wins with ESpeed

Scarf Hoopa-U is fine.

Scarf Landorus is fine

Mega Sableye is fine

Scarf Vicitini works

Dusclops can lose to Choice Specs Dark Pulse

Hitmonlee loses to Espeed

Scarf Infernape works but doesn't use scarf typically

Scarf Nihilego has trouble KOing 252 HP DeoN, with only a 75% chance to KO with Modest Sludge Wave.​

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I tried not to be too extreme, i.e. Mixed Scarf DeoN and really only used a few sets. Speed minimized Max HP remaining SpA Single/Dual Screen with Psycho Boost, Dark Pulse or Focus Blast, And Extreme Speed with Psychium Z alongside Choice Specs DeoN and Life Orb Mixed DeoN. Overall DeoN's only real counters are Scarf Pokemon, which it could theoretically beat with a Mixed Scarf.

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These calcs seem VERY cherrypicked and strange because it doesn't list all scenarios. These only really look at Choice Specs DeoN against some very bulky pokemon. Furthermore, these pokemon also have significant investment and aren't perfect. For example, a Life Orb Superpower DeoN could beat Snorlax and a Choice Specs Focus Blast forces MGyara into a 50/50 if it doesn't run that bulk.


Honestly, I think your assessment of DeoN's Speed tier is inaccurate. There are 9 pokemon that can run a scarf and outspeed DeoN. (Two regular pokemon naturally outspeed it.) And most of these are speed overkill. Scarf Garchomp had a 19% usage last month, Kartana 7%, Greninja 6%, Landorus 5%. These aren't typical Scarf Pokemon. And it's important to note as well that Scarf PZ and Scarf KyuB also don't run Max Speed as represented here, which they would be forced to do to outspeed DeoN.


Z-Screens is good.

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Except not really. If Scarf Kyurem-B can run around, ANY Kyurem-B can run around just due to the nature of Kyurem-B. It's item versatility is so high, that unless a pokemon shuts down it's top sets, it doesn't really impact KyuB that much because KyuB can change sets easily to CTeam and bluff a Scarf even if it doesn't have it.

Except it also inspires the use of Jirachi because Jirachi is one of its few explicit counters

While technically correct, this argument hinges on the fact that Togekiss sees good amounts of play. It had 0.6% usage last month, almost entirely because Jirachi is almost as strictly better than it than any pokemon could possibly be strictly better than.

I have a couple mathematical issues with the anger against Jumpluff, but there are so many counters to it and Mega Gengar that I honestly don't think we need to introduce a counter for either. The 1v1 community just needs to get good.

Except Snorlax is a check, a loose one albeit, but a check nonetheless, meaning Deoxys wouldn't cause a direct decrease in usage on Snorlax. Also Snorlax doesn't mind sturdies if it can just Sleep Hax them.

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What you're saying right here is my real issue. What you're proposing here is essentially "We have a couple of potentially ban-worthy pokemon, instead of banning them, let's introduce another one". WHICH IS BAD. I imagine if Rumple read that sentence he would freak out so so much. Broken pokemon (and others) aren't and shouldn't be dealt by introducing more broken pokemon, they should be dealt with via bans. Not only is it simpler and less likely to have drastic consequences, but it also prevents power creep. This is why Glyx made the satirical post about unbanning other pokemon, because at its core almost all broken pokemon could be theoretically balanced by each other until they are the meta and considered standard.

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One of Kentari's Cardinal Rules of 1v1 went something like this: Bulky Offense will always be the best playstyle in 1v1. It's not really necessary to shift the meta back towards Bulky Megas because honestly, they're still the dominant force in the metagame.


I know it seems kind of weird to both quote and criticize Kentari from one line to the next, but I'm going to do it anyways. I know Kentari likes to think of Pokemon in the "is this pokemon better or worse than this one", but that's a very flawed way of thinking. Pokemon isn't like poker. There's not many things that are strictly better than other things. So by asking is something better or worse than Kyurem-B, the answer will almost always be yes and no. For example, Kyurem-B can't deal with Mega Blaziken that well. A Scarf KyuB is is outsped and KO'd, while a Icium Z set isn't strong enough. This forces KyuB into an unoptimal set (usually Specs) if it wants to beat Mega Blaziken. In comparison, Deoxys-N can easily beat Mega Blaziken thanks to Psychium Z which is a strong set on its own. Does that make DeoN better than Kyurem-B? Are both better than Mega Blaziken? Not really. Viability rankings exist not to quantify a power level for pokemon, but rather to kinda sorta illustrate that some pokemon perform well against others and are more likely to be used. This means you're more likely to flesh out a team or build a team around an S ranked pokemon than you are a D rank pokemon (or god forbid Do Not Use Pokemon like lost hero). In this sense, it's very difficult to tell whether or not Deoxys-N "is better or worse than" Kyurem-B. Deoxys-N can easily be used to be a blanket counter to a large group of pokemon with one set or a different group with another. And it also can be supported by many pokemon as its flaws can be patched up with bulk.

I'm sorry I have to do this to you on your comeback post lost heros, but some of your calcs are wrong.Also deoN needs to make those into 4HKOs, coz stuff attack on the turn you set up as well....


1) Anti-koko metagross beats deoN hands down :
252+ SpA Choice Specs Deoxys Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 200 SpD Metagross-Mega: 248-292 (68.1 - 80.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


2) Mawile can comfortably 2HKO deoN

252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Iron Head vs. +1 252 HP / 0 Def Deoxys through Reflect: 143-168 (47 - 55.2%) -- 73.4% chance to 2HKO

AND:
252+ SpA Deoxys Shattered Psyche (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mawile-Mega: 207-245 (68 - 80.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO( You know mawM KO's with iron head!)

3) Meloetta dies to DPulse?? Excuse me???

252+ SpA Deoxys Black Hole Eclipse (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Meloetta: 344-406 (85.1 - 100.4%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

Nothing else, TBH. But hey, WHAT AM I SAYING? #DONTUNBANdeoN