Resource SM OU Viability Ranking Thread

[King Sceptile]

With Dugtrio being banned, I just wanted to give my opinions on a couple of the things that have been discussed in the thread with my take on whether they should rise, drop, or stay in the same rank they're currently in.

Heatran shouldn't go to S rank solely because it isn't on the same level as Lando-T and Magearna. Sure, Dugtrio leaving made Heatran a good bit better, but it's not improved to the point where it's one of the defining forces in the metagame and arguably the best Pokemon in the tier. S- is a stupid rank because it devalues the viability of some of the mons in A-rank and offers another arbitrary ranking line to argue over, so nomming Heatran to S- won't help either.

I'm split on Tapu Lele because while breaking sets like Choice Specs and Twisted Spoon Taunt got a lot better with the departure of Dugtrio from the tier, Tapu Lele still doesn't really have the flexibility of some of the other breakers in A+. However, Psychic Terrain support coupled with its ability to run a solid revenge killer for offense in Choice Scarf is enough versatility in terms of what it contributes to the team that sending Lele to A+ rank wouldn't be unjustified. Heatran only has one set, but it also has defensive utility aside from its breaking prowess whereas Lele's relatively frail bulk makes its defensive utility situational at best.

Kyurem-Black should definitely rise due to its ability to be a prolific breaker that tears apart the slow bulky offenses and balances favored by many good tournament players. Aside from its respectably strong STAB Ice Beam Fusion Bolt in Electric Terrain completely invalidates most of Life Orb Kyurem-Black's normal answers while Hidden Power Fire destroys both Ferrothorn and Mega Scizor, making both of them excellent coverage moves. Subzero Slammer sets certainly aren't bad by any means, but they don't have the sheer balance breaking power of Life Orb and the recent departure of Dugtrio makes it viable as a stallbreaker. This mon is such a good breaker right now that not raising it would simply be a mistake.

These two should drop due to the departure of one of their best teammates in Dugtrio, trapping troublesome defensive Pokemon such as Heatran and Chansey that would otherwise be annoying to deal with as well as the recent surge in Hyper Offense, as Volcarona now has significantly fewer setup opportunities than it did when the metagame was nothing but bulky offense and balance and Mega Charizard Y has fewer opportunities to switch in and fire off attacks. Obviously there's still a good amount of balance now, but these two are a lot more reliant on teammate support to beat its checks than just having Dugtrio trap them like it did before. Volcarona's Bug Buzz Hidden Power Ground set can still blow through offensive teams that run things like Latios and Tyranitar, so Volcarona is not bad by any means, it's just seen better days. Mega Charizard Y is honestly pretty hard to justify building around now due to its teambuilding constraints coupled with no distinguishing features that make it a significantly better choice than other breakers, unlike Volcarona's immense sweeping potential.

There's a few other things that I would change in these rankings, but all of those are changes to mons that are ranked below A rank right now, and I haven't used them enough to properly justify my changes in their placements.

 

[TCTphantom]

Im gonna go out on a limb real quick and nominate Mimikyu for B+. Building with Mimikyu on Hyper Offense is really fun to do as it honestly is just so damn solid on HO. But everyone knows that obviously. With Arena Trap gone, the meta seems to have gotten faster, in no small part due to the fact that Stall took a huge hit with the latest ban. Losing that super easy ability to win the hazard game in the long run and trap any strong wallbreakers makes stall weaker, which is great for Hyper Offense. Mimikyu naturally is amazing on hyper offense, which helps it out a good bit in this current meta. Also, just having a free switch or set up on HO is amazing, and Mimikyu giving HO that makes it a staple IMO to most serious HO builds. The only HO build I do not see it as a staple on is Veil, and Veil is not as good as it was like three months ago. Its solid on Webs (but webs isn't as good as it was like 5 months ago), its solid on pretty much every Hyper Offense build. Also spinblocking is cool but rt what spinners exist rn? Exca? And that isnt even that good tbh.

Oml is this thing solid right now. I agree wholeheartedly agree with Kartana rising. Its just a strong mon in general. Night Train Lane sums it up pretty well tbh. One thing to note is that Stall taking a hit is good for this thing, as Skarm was like one of the biggest checks to this thing ever, and now with Skarm taking a hit due to the stall nerf, the only super strong common answers to this thing are Zapdos and Celesteela. Also just saying Volc taking a hit after the Arena Trap ban is great for Kartana as Volc was a pain in the ass for it.

 

[Albacore]

I agree with what seems to be the general consensus here, which is that Heatran isn't quite S rank material. It still suffers from its biggest problem which is the ease at which it gets worn down. The huge popularity of Spikes on both Protean and Ash Greninja really exacerbates the problem; Heatran really, really hates Spikes, so that's an extra thing it has to deal with. Defensive sets are pretty passive and invite in stuff like Keldeo, while offensive sets have real trouble switching into stuff like Specs Tapu Lele. Not to mention, the metagame is so prepared for it that it can't reliably switch into the things it's supposed to beat: Magearna often runs Focus Blast, Volcarona runs HP Ground, Venusaur is starting to use EQ, heck even Ferro can cause problems for it with Knock Off. I don't see it as that much better than the rest of A+, and I cerntaly don't see it on par with Magearna or Landorus-T which, to me, are S rank in a large part because of how offensively threatening they an be.

Volcarona needs to drop, I think that's pretty obvious. Even before Arena Trap got banned it was starting to have real problems, and it's gotten even worse since. The fact that it barely sees any usage at all on high ladder speaks for itself to be honest. I'd argue it could actually drop to A- rank, though teams being less prepared for it is definitely an asset since it can run over them. But it still needs quite a bit of support and it's not something you can just put on a team and expect it to work anymore.

Hoopa-U definitely needs to move up to B+ if not A-, it's a formidable wallbreaker that can put in work vs offense thanks to its special bulk, taking advantage of stuff like Mew and Zapdos. Magearna causes problems for it, but it can only switch in so many times especially if it's offensive (which most are), and sets that aren't offensive aren't really that hard to deal with. The fact that it's one of the few physical attackers that can break past Toxapex makes it really potent vs stall, until they all start running Banded Weavile again at least.

I also agree with a Mimikyu rise, its ability makes it a fantastic asset to HO as well as a really deadly sweeper. If you can capitalize on the mindgames around it, it can be absolutely brutal since it's actually pretty easy to get it all the way up to +4. IMO It's a much easier fit on any team than anything else in B rank, you can literally just slap it on any team that needs an emergency check that doubles up as a cleaner. It has a strong and valuable niche and is defenitely at least on par with Weavile and Gyara.

OK, I have a nom of my own, and that is Ash-Greninja to S rank. It might be a long shot and i'm not entirely sure about it myself tbh. But I do think it at least merits discussion.
Right now, Ash-Greninja is easily one of the most formidable threats in the tier, as it has been for a while. It absolutely destroys teams that lack Dark resists, and its most common checks such as Ferrothorn, Keldeo and Tapu Bulu can't switch into it repeatedly and don't need to be worn much for it to 2HKO them, at which point it's pretty much unstoppable. On top of that, Water Shuriken gives it minor revenge killing capabilities and make it much harder to stop once it's transformed.
What makes it S-rank worthy to me are Spikes. Ash-Greninja is an absolutely fantastic Spikes setter, not only because of the amount of switches it can cause, but also because the tier's man defogger, Mew, absolutely does not want to stay in against it. Tapu Fini is still a pretty big problem for it, but it's not too hard to take advantage of either, and its usage has been on the decline recently. The amount of pressure Ash-Greninja can put on a team is considerable, especially since Spikes wear down a lot of its best checks. Spikes in general are very potent and Greninja is easily its best setter, and personally, I find Ash-Greninja to be a better Spiker than its Protean counterpart since it doesn't suffer from the same 4MSS.

It's an absolutely meta-defining threat overall and it feels a step above everything else in A+ rank, I'm just not sure if it's on the level of Magearna and Landorus-T which, on top of being considerable threats, provide a huge amount defensively which makes them more splashable. However, I have found Ash-Greninja very easy to fit on teams as well, almost any playstyle but stall can make very good use of it.

 

[Webcamparrot]

I'm inclined to disagree with Albacore on Ash-Greninja going to S rank. A number of things have changed in favour of Greninja for sure.
-Celesteela are now running mixed spreads meaning it's not as reliable for checking Greninja
-Toxic spikes are far more common than they used to be making Tangrowth and Bulu less able to deal with Greninja as the game continues
-Mantine and Keldeo are becoming less common thanks to a decrease in the usage of Volcarona and Zard y

But there are also a lot of things that have made Greninja worse
-Toxapex is now able to run black sludge again thanks to the arena trap ban
-More and more Toxapex are Spdef heavy these days instead of running mostly physical spreads
-You can no longer use Dugtrio to trap Chansey or AV Magearna
-Ferrothorn has seen a surge in popularity (it recently went up on the VR for instance)
-Seismitoad is now being used on some stall teams like cartoon stall (I know this is a very small thing but still)

I do think that Ash-greninja is absolutely fantastic right now. It's ability to setup spikes whilst being a fairly powerful and fast breaker with strong priority is outstanding. I just don't think that it's quite had enough things change for it to go to S rank. I also think it is significantly better than the other A+ pokemon. If S- was a thing I would say that could be an appropriate rank but I'm fairly new to this VR thing and I'm not sure if that's fitting.

 

[BlisseyandChansey123]

I want to go over the some of the previous nominations
Heatran A+ to S: Keep it at A+
Heatran is definitely one of the better A+ ranked mons in the VR, but I still can't see how is it so meta-defining that it should go all the way to S. Even though Arena Trap is banned and has benefited Heatran immensely, this has also led to Magearna being even more meta-defining then before, with its near consistant counter, namely Dugtrio, is basically gone from OU. When set up, heatran can't stop her(unless focus Blast misses) except doing a sacrifice Magma Storm to trap Magearna or switching out to Chansey who can't really do much except to spam soft boiled. Adding on to this, Heatran isn't exactly spashable. HO has almost no use of it, and other offensive kinds of teams don't really benefit much from using it. It's primary play style as far as I know that it is used is balance and stall.

Although it can be argued that having many counters is not a good reason for keeping it at the same rank as before, when I see S rank, there are quite few good counters to the pokemon in there. Fire Types like Volcorona and Charizard-Y have fallen a bit due to Arena Trap Ban. Although Choice Banded Tyrannitar is now even better, magearna sets up on passive pokemon, not tyrannitar, and by the time Tyrannitar switches in, she already set up her shift gear. Then Magearna can easily one hit KO with Twinkle Tacke or near O hit KO with Ice Beam, so it isn't really a problem. It should be a well known fact that Magearna is fairly splashable and can be be put in almost any team style. As of Landorus T, all the people in this thread should already know how good it is so I won't say anything. Heatran has a lot of good switch ins on contrary to the other 2 S rank, namely Zygarde, Choice Band Tyrannitar, even defensive Landorus-T, Tapu Lele(although not a good switch in to an offensive attack), Mega Lop(now even better after arena trap ban), and so on. Since it is uncommon for a SubToxic Heatran to be carrying flash cannon, fairies(namely Mega Diance) can set up on Heatran and Heatran can't do much to it with no steel type move. I can go on forever about it not being as meta-defining but I have made my point, it isn't just as splashable and meta-defining as the others.

Conclusion: Keep it at A+

Other nominations
Chansey=A- to A
I still don't know why this hasn't been done already. Chansey is definitely up there as one of the best defensive pokemon in the Tier, Toxapex, Heatran, Clefable, and Ferrothorn. It is obvious on how much the Arena Trap Ban benefitted Chansey immensely. There is not much to say about this and little counter argmuments.

And one more nomination
Diancie-Mega to A+(I can see this not happening but anyways)
The removal of Arena Trap in the Tier has deleted Mega Diancie's nightmare and hard counter :Dugtrio. Dugtrio's Presence in the OU has hindered Mega Diancie's immense potential and right now, I would have to say that now is Mega Diancie's Time to shine. I won't mention Mega Diancie's obvious good attributes as everyone already does, but now, with Stall falling off after Dugtrio's departure, Mega Diancie now generally has a much better matchup with OU's most prominant teamstyles. Although there are good swith ins to Mega Diancie, such as AV Magearna and Chansey, Mega Diancie ability to easily sweep HO Teams with it's Rock Polish Set set, have an okay matchup against bulky offense(with the exception on Magearna) with Calm Mind, and even block hazards against Toxapex and Ferrothorn is till undeniably valuable in any team style. Although Magearna and Chansey will also benifit from the ban of Arena Trap, Mega Diancie's good attributes overshadows it's bad ones and it is easily the best Mega at the moment. In conclusion Diancie Mega should rise to A+.
Echo:
Kartana to A-
Volc to A
Mimikyu to B+
ZardY to B+

 

[wheitron]

Ash Greninja to S > Disagreed
Greninja is a beast for shure, its one of the only Atackers that sets hazards for itself while keeping under imense pressure his checks due to dark pulse flinching+spikes. But it is not that good to the point of being S rank, and i will tell you why, lets look at the points that made greninja better vs the points that made it worse :

Yey Gren Gettin Happy : Tangrowth and Bulu got a huge hit with scizor being so common, so they are not as common as they once were, besides that, the rise on pokemon such as ttar and heatran makes it get switchins on doubles for spikes / pump, the influx in HO helps him too, as its argually grens best matchup.

Gren is Sad : Black Sludge spd has became a thing once again, and greninja really struggles to break this+ any form of hazard control, as it can just come in, eat pulses for days, recover, t spike and proceed from there. The influx on clef too does not help it, as it is forced to pump to break it, potencially giving a water type a swappin / missing and losing gren. Spd ferro has grown a lot in the meta, as well as scarfed landorus T ftom what ive seen, that means gren cannot revenge kill landot reliably without the BB activated, abou t ferro... yo spd ferro walls this forever. Another point id like to notice is that HO rn has got ways to outmanouver it, such as dnite, from bird spam, which sets up in any shuriken locked gren, mimikyu, a staple in HO, revenge kills it almost aways unless u got ur disguise broken. In Gondra's HO we got gyarados+lele, which benefits from greninja locked into shuriken / any move in gyarados case ( Mgyarados eats everything wtf), in Kanto HO we have the same case with gyarados+lele, and ofc kartana aways revenge killing it. Id also like to point out that kyurem B rising really hurts it, cuz it cannont lock itself into a water stab to nab a KO, cuz then kyub is in and does kyub things, which means it will get a kill. Ttars rise is also a double edged sword for gren, cuz while being pump fodder, it hinders gren from clicking pulse, as CB pursuit 2HKOs 100% of the time. After seeing this, i hope u agree with me into the point, Ash Gren Should Not Rise

 

[Gary]

RANKING UPDATE

Rises

A ---> A+

A ---> A+

A- ---> A

B+ ---> A-

C- ---> C+

Drops

A+ ----> Unranked

A+ ---> A

A ---> A-

A- ---> B+

A- ---> B+

A- ---> B+

B+ ---> B

B- ---> C+

C ---> Unranked

C- ---> Unranked

Reasonings

• Mega Diancie has proven itself to easily be the best mega in the tier. Its strong STAB combo and coverage moves makes it very difficult to wall reliably outside of scouting and Chansey, and between Rock Polish and Calm Mind it can be a terrifying late game cleaner or wallbreaker, or BOTH. Its ability Magic Bounce lets it take advantage of Pokemon like Mew that depend a lot on Wisp, as well as pressure rockers such as Clefable, Garchomp, and Landorus-T. It's also a really nice rocker on its own for is ability to force switches and threaten commons Defoggers such as Scarf Latios, Zapdos, Mew, and other means of hazard control like Mega Sab. Its great Speed stat also makes it a very strong offensive threat in general that can fit onto a variety of offenses and even some balance.
• Tapu Lele has really shined on the suspect ladder. Without Dugtrio around to trap it, Lele is able to actually run good items on it such as Specs or Z crystals, in order to pressure bulkier builds. While Scarf is still decent, Specs has seen a lot of usage on the prevalent Kanto HO team, as well as a lot of teams in general. Commonly used Steel-types such as Ferrothorn, Celesteela, Heatran, and Mega Scizor are very pressured to switch into repeated Psychic STABs, while AV Magearna takes a hefty chunk from Psyshock. Versus offense, it can pretty much get a kill every time it comes in. Z Crystals allow it to break the likes of Celesteela with Electrium or just fire off an extremely powerful nuke with Psychium to OHKO Pokemon like Zygarde and Clefable right off the bat. Very strong Pokemon at the moment that people are beginning to realize is still very difficult to deal with defensively.
• Memes aside, Kyurem-B is easily the best balance breaker in the tier atm, being able to tear apart some of the tier's most common balance cores, such as Bro Fist/ABR's Venu squad, Celepex, Ferrothorn, AV Tangs, fat Landos, etc. Life Orb with Ice Beam / Fusion Bolt / HP Fire / Roost or Earth Power is usualy what it runs, with HP Fire being pretty much mandatory without Zone support to prevent Mega Sciz from coming in freely. Earth Power lets it pressure Heatran squads more without having to predict with Fusion Bolt, while Roost allows it to preserve its health and allow it to abuse its decent defensive typing as well as buffer its hazard weakness a bit. Pair this monster with Tapu Koko for pseudo STAB on Fusion Bolt and VoltTurn support, it's very easy to see why it's so good.
• Kartana went from being a joke to one of the deadliest offensive Pokemon in the tier. Its been seeing a lot of usage on common HOs utilizing its Scarf set, which can function as a great late game cleaner thanks to its high Attack stat and Beast Boost. Despite its low BP STAB moves, it's able to shred offenses late game, as a +1 Leaf Blade is able to do a surprisingly high amount to resists. Its SD sets are still effective as well, being able to blast through common defensive cores such as Celepex and Mega Sciz teams. It also has some cool techs with being one of the only Defoggers that can basically 100% switch into Ferrothorn.
• Victini has seen great success on the suspect ladder with its new Z Celebrate set. With the lack of base 101+ scarfers on the decline, decently high bulk after a boost, and strong coverage moves, Victini is surprsingly very threatening after a boost and can find plenty of opportunities to set up on passive Pokemon like Mew, Clefable, and Ferrothorn. This could easily go up again, but we didn't want to overshoot it.
• Dugtrio dropped because without Arena Trap it's literally a useless pile of garbage
• Volcarona's placement was once again very controversial within the council, and normally I don't change a Pokemon's ranking unless there is a super majority within the council. However, this time there was a simple majority, and taking the community's feedback in consideration as well, I felt like Volcarona dropping was the right call for now. While it's still a massive crutch when team building, people are feeling more comfortable running a combination of Pokemon such as Heatran, T-tar, Pex, Mantine, Scarf Latios, etc without feeling the need to run Scarf Chomper or Keldeo. Dugtrio leaving also forces Volc to run HP Ground 100%, or else Heatran just takes a massive dump on it all day, which forces it to run Bugnium or Psychium Z to threaten Zyg. On the flip side, teams are becoming more complacent and are finding themselves weaker to Volcarona because of its lower usage, so it could easily rise back up in the near future, and is by no means a permanent rank.
• Chomper has seen better days. Scarf is absolutely horrendous in the current metagame because of its terrible match up vs most balance teams, while SD Dragonium is decent but still suffers from being cucked by Bulu, Clefable, and Celesteela. It's also pretty easy to revenge kill, and just isn't used as much as an offensive rocker with so many good options to choose from atm.
• Zard-Y dropped further due to Duggy ban, which makes it completely useless vs the most common balance builds.
• Mega T-tar is still a great sweeper, but it's finding lesser opportunities to set up in this meta and Mega Lopunny is starting to rise quite a bit in usage.
• Skarmory dropped because stall usage is naturally declining with the loss of Dugtrio, and considering that's Skarm's main niche playstyle, it dropped along with it.
• Amoonguss is pretty niche these days with Mega Venu being pretty good atm, and as a Regen Poison-type Pex gives it a lot of competition as well.
• Aurora Veil has suffered immensely these last few weeks with the influx in Scarf Kartana, Mega Diancie, and Mega Scizor
• Kyurem and Necrozma were unranked because their main niches in the metagame required Dugtrio support

Council Slate

Mega Diancie A to A+: All unanimous bar one person
Dugtrio A+ to unranked: jelq
Volcarona A+ to A: Controversial but simple majority won over
Garchomp A to A-: All agreed
Tangrowth A to A-: Most disagreed
Tapu Lele A to A+: All agreed except one person
Kyurem-B A- to A: All agreed
Mega Zard Y A- to B+: All agreed
Tyranitar A- to A: Most disagreed
Mega Tyranitar A- to B+: All agreed
Skarmory A- ---> B+: All agreed
Amoonguss B+ to B: All agreed
Kartana B+ to A-: All agreed or were indifferent
Hoopa-U B to B+: Most disagreed
Mimikyu B to B+: All disagreed except one (I'm sure you can guess who)
Alolan Ninetales B- to C+: All agreed
Mega Gyarados C+ to B-: Most disagreed
Azelf C to C+: Most disagreed
Kyurem C to unranked: All agreed
Necrozma C- to unranked: All agreed except one
Victini C- to B-: Most wanted it in C+

No slate this time because the meta is pretty fresh with the Arena Trap ban. Heatran is not going S anytime soon btw.

 

[smogonModsAreTrash]

• Chomper has seen better days. Scarf is absolutely horrendous in the current metagame because of its terrible match up vs most balance teams, while SD Dragonium is decent but still suffers from being cucked

L M A O. Looks like smogon mods aren't trash after all.

On a more serious note, I'm not sure what needs to rise or fall. I thought Chansey was a no brainer to rise now that it switches in mindlessly to special attackers not named lele/keldeo but not having Dugtrio around might lead to more Lele? Chansey is a stall staple but Stall is much, much weaker yet Chansey on bulky offense got a huge buff since it can't be trapped.

252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Crunch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 292-345 (41.5 - 49%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Pursuit vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 246-289 (34.9 - 41.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Heatran will of course be a huge pain to deal with, (252+ Atk Chansey Tectonic Rage (175 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 244-288 (75.5 - 89.1%) ) as Chansey dies if it comes in on Magma Storm. Seismic toss KOs in three hits with SR, four without which is big while Chansey potentially loses 40% on switch in if rocks are up. The trapper set also matters though it doesn't even need toxic to kill Chansey. Still, if this is an issue, even pokemon like banded TTar take a clean 70-80% off offensive heatran sets with Crunch/Pursuit while forcing the OHKO scenario in Superpower/EQ in dangerous 50/50s advantageous to the Ttar user.

Heatran seems like S on paper, but like Chansey and 95% of other Pokemon, we have no idea how good it will be until the meta stabilizes around the massive removal of Dugtrio. Even if it ends up being much better, the meta will evolve to deal with it since it walls 60% of the metagame. I think a lot of good arguments that make perfect logical sense can be made on both sides for rise/fall, but they will be truly hypothetical until more time passes or we see the results of another big tournament. Maybe others are just better and can predict how things will end up (possibly inference from the suspect ladder/current day?) but so much of what we type is just empty theorymon.

I'll be honest, I just typed the last four paragraphs to have an excuse for quoting the word "cuck"

 

[aogalicia]

I believe Mega Charizard X should to B+ or A- at most. Since the departure of Arena Trap from the OU tier Zard X doesn't really need to worry about a Dugtrio being Scarfed or Focus Sash after their Zard X is at +1 and ready to sweep. Seeing how many of it's checks can be countered by it's teammates or simple predictions. Also being one of Zard's X most common checks is Landorus-T due to it's bulky and it's ability intimidate and being able to hold a rocky helmet to be hinder physical attackers, but seeing how that set is outdated and most Landorus-T are either running Z-Moves or leftovers for the outdated set, Zard X can chip them if you can predict them to switch in each time making Landorus-T less of a check. Sure Zard X might suffer from four-moveslot syndrome to be walled by things like a Mega Diancie or Heatran so you can opt out Roost for Earthquake for better coverage and using a healing wish user or Z-Memento user to better help out Zard X. He can also force some 50/50 in certain situations. In the replay the 50/50 happens around round 22 or 23: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-633659701

 

[Indigo Plateau]

No way that Zard-X should rise two subranks atm, far less three. This isn't to say that there isn't potential for a rise because I definitely think there is, but the meta still hasn't had much time to develop to see how much of an impact Zard-X will have on it.

Lando-T is still as prominent as ever. Sure, with Z moves it can commonly run an offensive set, but that's not to say that defensive Lando with lefties isn't still problematic.

Moreover, with Duggy gone, Heatran and TTar are bound to rise in usage, and you can't really afford to lose vs both of these. If you opt out of Roost for EQ, you'll have a hard time recovering the damage from hazards and other things off. I guess you can afford to run something like 1 stab + EQ + Roost, but depending on what stab you take, it'll leave you walled by other threats in the meta (i.e. Dragon Claw + EQ is total Celesteela bait, fire stab + EQ is free switchin for Mantine or dragons, just to name a few). Clef is now seen sometimes running the annoying yellow color again and is Bold+ as opposed to ORAS. Certain mons on playstyles that are more popular this gen are also extremely bad for it - see Diancie + Gyara on HO, Rain, Scarf Greninja is very popular now on balance builds, and so on. Hell, even good old Sand might see a little more usage now that its core isn't complete Duggy bait, but that's just an aside. Not to mention that not running Roost is also problematic for the forms of priority this gen such as Ash-Ninja's shuriken, Zyg's espeed, and Lop's/Medi's fake out.

Overall, the meta is still unkind to Zard-X due to the immense power creep. It enjoyed being able to switch in or set up vs mons like Rotom-W, Ferro, and so on last gen, but it finds a hard time switching in due to the hazard stacked, hard hitting meta that SM currently holds. That's not to say it can't rise (it probably will), but opting for it to shoot all the way to B+/A- in such a short period of time is a bit unrealistic.

Also your opponent had an easy win if he just kept going for CC with Gallade and just cleaned with ESpeed from Zyg afterwards.

 

[robopoke]

def. deserves to rise for its Stabs+Eq Roost Set.
It combines maximum coverage with longevity in exchange for Dragon Dance, which is a fair trade-off. I consider this to be by far the best Set and guess which mon made sure you cannot use this Set? Correct, Dugtrio. Without Arena Trap, Zard X now can be used as a very threatening wallbreaker. The few mons that can take two hits are either easy to chip (Landorus-T) or very passive (Quagsire, Alomomola).

Dragon Dance is still viable but in SM OU it is just too difficult to get off consistent sweeps. There is Mimikyu, too many strong priority users and you have to decide between being walled by Heatran or having no Roost which is annoying against Fini and in general as well. It just made sense that Dragon Dance Zard X was falling even further. Also, many Dragon Dance targets have Toxic, Thunder Wave or other forms of moves that will limit your sweep immensly.

Snake Draft Cdumas vs Snou: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-314340
This games shows how threatening Zard X is just with his Stabs, Earthquake and Roost. Dragon Dance 3 Atks also did have a good matchup but it means you have to keep Zard X healthy for the lategame and exclusively use it for lategame, unless you want to trade early. Roostless Zard X is just such a huge waste on a mon with a great defensive typing and the ability to deal with Koko.

Even though I would love to propose a rise from B- to B+, I think we should be cautious because this Arena Trapless metagame is still fresh so I propose a rise to B for now. This mon can easily be A in the future.


All the arguments I read that are against a rise for now did not consider 3 Atks Roost and if they did, they called it surprise factor. I ask you, how is it a surprise when it literally 2HKOs 90% of the metagame? Oh, a surprise Earthquake even though he revealed Roost. That is not just a surprise. This is a logical mistake on your part. The reason Heatran is on the field is because your other teammates cannot deal with Flare Blitz and Dclaw, but Heatran can. The Earthquake might have surprised you, but it does not mean that from now on you can build in a way that will prevent from 3 Atks Roost being a bitch. It is literally unwallable besides for niche Quagsire and Alomomola which btw. are trappable by Heatran and give free switches to soo many other breakers.

 

[aogalicia]

No way that Zard-X should rise two subranks atm, far less three. This isn't to say that there isn't potential for a rise because I definitely think there is, but the meta still hasn't had much time to develop to see how much of an impact Zard-X will have on it.

Lando-T is still as prominent as ever. Sure, with Z moves it can commonly run an offensive set, but that's not to say that defensive Lando with lefties isn't still problematic.

Moreover, with Duggy gone, Heatran and TTar are bound to rise in usage, and you can't really afford to lose vs both of these. If you opt out of Roost for EQ, you'll have a hard time recovering the damage from hazards and other things off. I guess you can afford to run something like 1 stab + EQ + Roost, but depending on what stab you take, it'll leave you walled by other threats in the meta (i.e. Dragon Claw + EQ is total Celesteela bait, fire stab + EQ is free switchin for Mantine or dragons, just to name a few). Clef is now seen sometimes running the annoying yellow color again and is Bold+ as opposed to ORAS. Certain mons on playstyles that are more popular this gen are also extremely bad for it - see Diancie + Gyara on HO, Rain, Scarf Greninja is very popular now on balance builds, and so on. Hell, even good old Sand might see a little more usage now that its core isn't complete Duggy bait, but that's just an aside. Not to mention that not running Roost is also problematic for the forms of priority this gen such as Ash-Ninja's shuriken, Zyg's espeed, and Lop's/Medi's fake out.

Overall, the meta is still unkind to Zard-X due to the immense power creep. It enjoyed being able to switch in or set up vs mons like Rotom-W, Ferro, and so on last gen, but it finds a hard time switching in due to the hazard stacked, hard hitting meta that SM currently holds. That's not to say it can't rise (it probably will), but opting for it to shoot all the way to B+/A- in such a short period of time is a bit unrealistic.

Also your opponent had an easy win if he just kept going for CC with Gallade and just cleaned with ESpeed from Zyg afterwards.

Zard X was never bad just Dugtrio kept his usage low because it was in so many teams. Seeing how Dugtrio doesn’t have a niche in OU anymore Zard X could rise up & you talked about priority being a problem, just pair it up with Tapu Lele to remove priority and rising to B+ is more realistic than A- tbh.

 

[Latioswars]

I don't agree with volcarona drop, its simply a mon that set ups and wins games and even if arena trap got banned volcarona its good as ever, in fact scarfers like nihilego and chomp are dying and people are using slower scarfers like Lele or lando.

Also volcarona destroys its counters depending on the coverage you run, Psyquic Z rekts toxapex and most dragons at +1 while bug Buzz destroys ttar and mega latias that think they can beat you cause they may think you are standar fire blast, giga drain, HP ground.

Also volcarona doesn't need to sweep to be a threath, it can spam attacks and get some kills, for example vs rain, volcarona may not sweep but it can get some kills like when you lead with volcarona you can weaken or kill peliper with psyquic Z or every time ferro comes its a free switch in for volcarona.

So while its SR weak and you need defog support; for offense you can fit lead rapid spin exca to prevent rocks or if you are running a more bulky offense team getting rid of SR isnt that hard this gen cause defoggers like zapdos or mew have great synergy with volcarona, in fact because normaly heatran is the rocker you can weaken heatran with discharge paras or straight up lure tran with earthquake mew.

Also volcarona can be a very cool defensive win con because the defensive sets wall medichamp, mawile and magearna in one slot so while you are forced to run a defogger its not really a big deal because most teams should be running defog anyways cause hazards are everywhere.

 

[Yahooboo]

Zard X also can run SpDef/Def sets like it did back in ORAS, and they still work decently enough.

Credit to Lemon Ginger for this set (I just tweaked some EVs and gave some optional spreads).

Charizard @ Charizardite X
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 248 HP / 244 SpD / 16 Spe
Careful Nature
or
EVs: 248 HP / 72 Def / 172 SpD / 16 Spe
Impish Nature

- Roost
- Thunder Punch / Earthquake
- Fire Punch / Flare Blitz
- Will-O-Wisp / Swords Dance

16 Speed lets you outspeed neutral nature base 70's (big one is probably Adamant Bisharp), so you can hit stuff like Band Tyranitar and Bisharp with Wisp before they hit you and cripple them. IMO that's the minimum speed that should be run. Next benchmark is probably stuff like Jolly Tran, but you need 72 Speed EVs with a Jolly nature and that really cuts into your bulk (plus they do a ton with Earth Power and if Grassy Terrain is up, EQ doesn't even come close to OHKO'ing).

The first spread is a full-on SpDef spread, which lets you handle stuff like Specs Koko and Zard Y really nicely, which is...nice, as shown in this post with more calcs.

The second spread sacrifices some amount of SpDef (you still handle stuff like Zard Y really well though) so that you can better handle physical threats. Offensive Garchomp almost never OHKOs with Outrage, CB Zygarde doesn't usually OHKO with Thousand Arrows, you outspeed and burn BandTar and then tank the Edge, and so on.

As for moveset....running SD lets you be a threat, and Dragon STAB on either set is....well, the only thing it'd really be good for hitting is Mega Latias, but you're only a check to CM Stored Power versions anyways, not a counter. Fire Punch over Flare Blitz because you need to be at full to check the threats you're supposed to, and Fire Punch still 2HKO's most important stuff (Celesteela, Magearna, etc.), but Flare Blitz does get important OHKOs on Magearna mostly (with SD, Blitz is great). EQ is great for destroying Heatran and Tyranitar, both of which are rising in usage, but Tapu Bulu is a great partner for Zard X and Grassy Terrain is awful with EQ. Thunder Punch nails Toxapex (especially after boosts) and Pelipper too, and Tapu Koko being everywhere is great because (a) Defensive Zard X eats Koko for lunch and (b) Electric Terrain and Tough Claws boosted Thunder Punch hurts (2HKO on standard Pex). Wisp is amazing IMO because Landorus-T and Tyranitar (and Zygarde/Chomp, to an extent) are good/common switchins to Zard X and hitting them with Wisp on the switch makes them very sad.

I'm assuming this was meant to be on metagame discussion, not the VR.

 

[Astoria]

Zard X was never bad just Dugtrio kept his usage low because it was in so many teams. Seeing how Dugtrio doesn’t have a niche in OU anymore Zard X could rise up & you talked about priority being a problem, just pair it up with Tapu Lele to remove priority and rising to B+ is more realistic than A- tbh.

Sry but I have to disagree . Charizard-X is just not that good in this Meta because its way to hard to sweep with it right now and it needs too much support. Scarfers that can revange kill it are very comon rn (Gren, Keldeo, Garchomp, Lati, etc). Also Priority like ESpeed, Water Shuriken or Fake Out are on many teams and can usually keep Zard-X from sweeping cause it takes so much damage from everything (Rocks, Recoil from Flare Blitz, Rocky Helmet, etc). Also good setup opportunities are very rare because Zard cant afford to take much prior damage. Mons like Lando-T, Clefable, Mew, Toxapex, Tapu Fini and Zapdos can also usually take one hit from +1 Zard-X or just wall it while Celesteela, Magearna, Ferrothorn or Tangrowth let it take tons of recoil. It cant even threaten mons like Heatran or TTar without EQ as pointed out before. All that said i see no way of Zard-X being B+ or even A-. Some weeks ago i really wanted to see it rise up to B but i am not even sure about that anymore.

 

[thesecondbest]

So while its SR weak and you need defog support; for offense you can fit lead rapid spin exca to prevent rocks or if you are running a more bulky offense team getting rid of SR isnt that hard this gen cause defoggers like zapdos or mew have great synergy with volcarona, in fact because normaly heatran is the rocker you can weaken heatran with discharge paras or straight up lure tran with earthquake mew.

Also volcarona can be a very cool defensive win con because the defensive sets wall medichamp, mawile and magearna in one slot so while you are forced to run a defogger its not really a big deal because most teams should be running defog anyways cause hazards are everywhere.

Just gonna address this part because the rest is mostly true.
First of all, how does lead spin exca stop rocks? If you are running it as a lead I assume it will die early and can't spin later then. Plus, if they are rocks lando, then you are not stopping that from getting them up. U do scare out clef and Tran, and that's nice, but unless you immediately go into volc after exca dies, you are not getting rid of rocks.
Second, volc does not beat medicham in any universe, and knock from mawile hurts and gets rid of your item.
Finally, defoggers aren't as easy as you make them sound. Let's say I have rocks lando-t. You go into your mew on the rocks, and now I can switch to Greninja on the defog and get off a specs pulse. Zapdos is better vs gren but it is also rocks weak, and what if I smack down or edge on the switch bc I am offensive lando-t? Goodbye zap unless you are Max speed hp ice, but I can tell by the damage.

 

[Deleted User 400951]

I don't agree with volcarona drop, its simply a mon that set ups and wins games and even if arena trap got banned volcarona its good as ever, in fact scarfers like nihilego and chomp are dying and people are using slower scarfers like Lele or lando.

Also volcarona destroys its counters depending on the coverage you run, Psyquic Z rekts toxapex and most dragons at +1 while bug Buzz destroys ttar and mega latias that think they can beat you cause they may think you are standar fire blast, giga drain, HP ground.

Also volcarona doesn't need to sweep to be a threath, it can spam attacks and get some kills, for example vs rain, volcarona may not sweep but it can get some kills like when you lead with volcarona you can weaken or kill peliper with psyquic Z or every time ferro comes its a free switch in for volcarona.

So while its SR weak and you need defog support; for offense you can fit lead rapid spin exca to prevent rocks or if you are running a more bulky offense team getting rid of SR isnt that hard this gen cause defoggers like zapdos or mew have great synergy with volcarona, in fact because normaly heatran is the rocker you can weaken heatran with discharge paras or straight up lure tran with earthquake mew.

Also volcarona can be a very cool defensive win con because the defensive sets wall medichamp, mawile and magearna in one slot so while you are forced to run a defogger its not really a big deal because most teams should be running defog anyways cause hazards are everywhere.

Definitely not. Volcarona has been falling off for a while now and shouldn't rise back up rn.
What you're not acknowledging is that the metagame around it is getting much worse for it. I'm going to quote my post from earlier, then address your points:

I'm also gonna still support Volcarona down to A. Dugtrio being banned really hurt this, as what was once versatility is now simply 4MSS. If it doesn't run HP Ground, it now has no way around Heatran, which is extraordinarily prominent in this metagame (even so with Dugtrio, but now even more). Without Psychium Z, it has no way around Toxapex, which also benefitted from the AT ban. Without Giga Drain, any other bulky water will wall it. All of its counters are more prominent in the current metagame, and without the right move, Volcarona is simply deadweight in the MU against them. It's thus becoming less and less consistent at sweeping, and deserves the drop to A.

Yes, we all know it can break through its checks and the sort. However, it's hard-walled and pretty much useless in a MU if it doesn't have the right Z-Move; being weak to all hazards really limits it a lot more than you acknowledge. Someone above me already explained this.
As for that defensive win-con part:
252 Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega Zen Headbutt vs. 248 HP / 196+ Def Volcarona: 219-258 (58.7 - 69.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Pure Power burned Medicham-Mega Zen Headbutt vs. 248 HP / 196+ Def Volcarona: 109-129 (29.2 - 34.5%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
So Medicham-Mega can still win if it wins the speed tie.
The other mons you mentioned are walled, yes. But outside of those mons, it's really not taking care of much because that physical bulk is just pretty damn bad in this metagame.
Don't raise Volcarona yet. I'd give it some time - 1-2 weeks - then raise it back up. But not now.

 

[Divine Retribution]

Sry but I have to disagree . Charizard-X is just not that good in this Meta because its way to hard to sweep with it right now and it needs too much support. Scarfers that can revange kill it are very comon rn (Gren, Keldeo, Garchomp, Lati, etc). Also Priority like ESpeed, Water Shuriken or Fake Out are on many teams and can usually keep Zard-X from sweeping cause it takes so much damage from everything (Rocks, Recoil from Flare Blitz, Rocky Helmet, etc). Also good setup opportunities are very rare because Zard cant afford to take much prior damage. Mons like Lando-T, Clefable, Mew, Toxapex, Tapu Fini and Zapdos can also usually take one hit from +1 Zard-X or just wall it while Celesteela, Magearna, Ferrothorn or Tangrowth let it take tons of recoil. It cant even threaten mons like Heatran or TTar without EQ as pointed out before. All that said i see no way of Zard-X being B+ or even A-. Some weeks ago i really wanted to see it rise up to B but i am not even sure about that anymore.

If Charizard-X moves up it will not be because of its Dragon Dance sets or any sweeping potential. As robopoke pointed out on the last page, 3 Attacks + Roost Char X has some seriously slept on breaking potential being almost unwallable except for a small handful of things that are either vulnerable to chip or being trapped by Heatran.

Your entire argument is based around Char X's lack of sweeping potential and fails to address its newfound 3 Attacks + Roost set.

 

[Shurtugal]

Dragon Dance Charizard-X is still very much a good Pokemon (DD + Roost set). Yes Heatran checks non-EQ quite well, but offensive Heatran gets worn down quite quickly (+1 DClaw 2HKOs Heatran after SR + Spike, for example). I'd say Dugtrio's drop makes Zard X actually slightly better since it doesn't need to worry about Sash / Scarf Dugtrio stopping its sweep. 3 Attack Zard X sounds fun but in a tier where Rocky Helmet Landorus-Therian is used a lot I can't see it being this top tier threat that others are claiming it will be.

Volcarona drop seems funny -- Heatran is not a reliable answer to Volcarona at all. Offensive Heatran is the more common one and that is blown away by +1 HP Ground quite easily, and non-Toxic Heatran is just setup bait for the defensive QD set lol. SDef is pretty solid against it but to drop a Pokemon based off of that is sort of nuts when Volcarona can put in work against so many teams. Tyranitar + Heatran's presence makes Volcarona's job slightly more difficult but Volcarona still has many tools at its disposal to remove a huge majority of its counters, with Chansey being the only real Pokemon that could counter any set. This thing would literally be broken if it didn't have a crippling weakness to Stealth Rock. LOL @ the calcs of Medicham vs defensive Volcarona, because most Volcarona teams are paired with Landorus-Therian, which means you normally just Intimidate sac + go to Volc to set up against strong physical threats, almost makes me think that user hasn't used defensive volcarona at all

Victini set is surprisingly potent and could probably raise couple more ranks.

Mawile should probably raise a rank. Without Dugtrio to stop it, it is easily one of the best Pokemon in breaking defensive teams. +2 Sucker Punch and decent natural bulk means it won't be deadweight in offensive matchups either (not to mention it's a great secondary steel type for any team its slapped onto).

 

[legend slayer]

Yall be sleeping on the almighty zard x flame charge sd set;). I def agree with zard x raise because of his good coverage with roost 3atk as well as almost always getting a chance to dd if that set, as well as being p insanely powerful with tough claws flare blitz. Typing good, only real problem to it is pex or slowbro, and both are easily dealt with by koko. Only real problems is like lando t for gim, as he has no way to hit it for any decent dmg, especially with roost 3 attacks.duggy ban definitely helped him in the long run as well, as less stall meakes roost 3 atk have an even easier time ripping through teams.

 

[Yahooboo]

Time to make my first nom, I suppose. Tell me if I'm doing anything wrong please.

Nomming Regular Swampert to C/C+

While it may seem somewhat overshadowed by its mega, I believe this Pokemon is actually a viable choice and should definitely get more credit than it does.

The Swampert set I want to talk about in particular is Assault Vest, though it is possible other sets can be run. AV Swampert has good use for its ability to check a pretty wide number of important Pokemon in the metagame thanks to its great defensive typing and good bulk. Examples of pokemon checked by it include Magearna, Non-Bloom Doom Heatran, Mega Diancie, Tapu Koko, Zapdos and many more. It can also deal some good damage to things like Lando-T and Tyranitar.

Time for a bunch of calcs. This'll go in a couple spoilers/hide tabs so as not to be an eyesore.

Most Important Calcs

Shift Gear Mag and AV Mag respectively
252+ Atk Swampert Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 284-336 (94.3 - 111.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Magearna All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Swampert: 151-178 (37.3 - 44%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ Atk Swampert Earthquake vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 284-336 (80.9 - 95.7%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
56 SpA Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Swampert: 135-159 (33.4 - 39.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Offensive Lando-T and Defensive Lando T respectively
-1 252+ Atk Swampert Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian: 232-276 (72.7 - 86.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
-1 252+ Atk Swampert Avalanche vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian: 372-440 (116.6 - 137.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Swampert: 213-252 (52.7 - 62.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

-1 252+ Atk Swampert Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Landorus-Therian: 172-204 (45 - 53.4%) -- 84.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
-1 252+ Atk Swampert Avalanche vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Landorus-Therian: 272-324 (71.2 - 84.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Swampert: 162-192 (40 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Mega Diancie
252+ Atk Swampert Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Diancie-Mega: 294-348 (121.9 - 144.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Diancie-Mega Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Swampert: 132-156 (32.6 - 38.6%) -- 98.6% chance to 3HKO
Greninja and Ash Greninja respectively
252+ Atk Swampert Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja: 220-259 (77.1 - 90.8%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Swampert Superpower vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja: 352-416 (123.5 - 145.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Swampert: 144-172 (35.6 - 42.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ Atk Swampert Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja: 220-259 (77.1 - 90.8%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Swampert Superpower vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja: 352-416 (123.5 - 145.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Swampert: 220-261 (54.4 - 64.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Water Shuriken (20 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Swampert: 126-147 (31.1 - 36.3%) -- approx. 59.3% chance to 3HKO
Heatran
252+ Atk Swampert Earthquake vs. 212 HP / 44 Def Heatran: 580-688 (154.2 - 182.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Swampert: 49-58 (12.1 - 14.3%) -- possible 7HKO

Tapu Koko
252+ Atk Swampert Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko: 366-432 (130.2 - 153.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Koko Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Swampert: 115-136 (28.4 - 33.6%) -- 0.5% chance to 3HKO

Zygarde
252+ Atk Swampert Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 272-324 (75.9 - 90.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Swampert Avalanche vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 432-512 (120.6 - 143%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Zygarde Outrage vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Swampert: 294-346 (72.7 - 85.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Swampert: 220-261 (54.4 - 64.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Latios
252+ Atk Swampert Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 192-228 (63.7 - 75.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Swampert Avalanche vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 308-364 (102.3 - 120.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Soul Dew Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Swampert: 186-219 (46 - 54.2%) -- 48.4% chance to 2HKO

It should also be noted that with the banning of Dugtrio, both Charizard-Y and possibly Volc are going to go down in usage, which aids AV Pert as they both potentially carry Solar Beam and Giga Drain which could annihilate it.

I know I haven't got anything in the way of replays, and it's not the most in depth nomination out there, but I really do think that this pokemon should be utilized a little more than it is, and it is certainly better than what is in C- rank, so it deserves a spot too, even if it is vulnerable to being worn down and is badly hurt by any grass moves at all. Dear lord that sentence has too many commas. Anyways, thanks for reading.

side edit: what happened to the post about emboar?

 

[Cheryl.]

I hope I speak for everyone here that Assault Vest Swampert should not be ranked for the simple reason that it is completely outclassed by Gastrodon. Not only does Gastro check the same list of mons you said Swampert checks, it has Recover to consistently keep itself healthy against those threats (unlike Swamp who gets worn down easily by U-turns and stuff), and doesn't have to use Assault Vest to eat up hits either, which means it can run Toxic to disrupt switch-ins and such. It's just a much, much better Pokémon than AVest Swampert (and a pretty decent mon in general rn), which is basically the reason why regular Swamp shouldn't be ranked.

 

[Expert_Occultist]

- Ok, after remarking about this guy's usage in the Metagame Thread and playing with the Roost +3 attacks set for a few games I agree that Charizard X could go for a raise. As a wall breaker Zardx has great coverage and longevity with Roost. It's defensive typing is also unique and lets it check electric types very well. Most importantly Zardx differentiates itself from its special counterpart by being more user friendly. It's typing and bulk lets it switch into things (Magearna can't hit it super effectively for example) and being only x2 weak to Rocks is a huge plus. This means that you aren't as pressured to keep Rocks off the field like you are with ZardY. It's coverage also means it has less mandatory teammates like ZardY has (or had) which means ZardX can be used in more teams and doesn't lend itself to predictable cookie-cutter archtypes. Unfortunately, it still doesn't like Lando but at least Flare Blitz takes a decent chunk out of switch-ins.

Mandatory "how-has-the-meta-changed" line: Duggy is gone which makes the new Roost +3 attacks wallbreaker set even possible.

Based on these points I think Zardx compares well with Zardy and could probably join him in B+.

 

[TURBODERP]

I hope I speak for everyone here that Assault Vest Swampert should not be ranked for the simple reason that it is completely outclassed by Gastrodon. Not only does Gastro check the same list of mons you said Swampert checks, it has Recover to consistently keep itself healthy against those threats (unlike Swamp who gets worn down easily by U-turns and stuff), and doesn't have to use Assault Vest to eat up hits either, which means it can run Toxic to disrupt switch-ins and such. It's just a much, much better Pokémon than AVest Swampert (and a pretty decent mon in general rn), which is basically the reason why regular Swamp shouldn't be ranked.

AV Swampert also loses arguably the one niche it has over Gastrodon in that Swampert has access to Stealth Rocks (and uh, Roar I guess).

 

[Vengeance417]

AV Swampert also loses arguably the one niche it has over Gastrodon in that Swampert has access to Stealth Rocks (and uh, Roar I guess).

You can't even use those two moves on AV Swampert as the AV blocks the use of support moves, which makes Pert even more useless compared to Gastro, who gives your team a water immunity which is very important thanks to the influence Rain has on the meta.

Charizard X should definitely rise to B or B+. The 3 Attacks + Roost set is arguably the set to run rn over DD, although DD is still pretty good. It paves the way for mons like Specs Koko and Ash-Gren to clean teams later on in the match, and both of those two happen to be fantastic partners for Zard X to potentially do the same against fatter teams as Specs Koko takes out fat waters like Pex and Suicune, while Ash-Gren destroys bulky Grounds like the rising Hippowdon. Meanwhile, Zard X destroys fat grasses in Ferrothorn, Amoonguss, and Tangrowth.