Metagame USUM Memetagame Discussion was a mistake

[verbatim]

In my opinion, no Pokémon should be allowed to stay in the S Rank that long without getting smacked by the banhammer.

I personally don't agree with this ideology.

One of the reasons (imo) that Lando is so good/popular on teams that rank high is that it can be played in a lot of different ways, rather than having one busted set (looking at you Naga). A hypothetical pokemon that hits 15% usage because it has 3 very distinct sets that fufill different roles for teams and get 5% each is more interesting than a one dimensional mon that just gets thrown onto every team.


Re what set are they running, Earlier I Like Donkeys made a really good point that the penalty for guessing wrong about which set Naga is running can cost you the set right out the gate. With Lando you have a lot more room for error and making plays that give you information that might help you guess what it's running throughout the course of the match.

 

[I like donkeys]

I personally don't agree with this ideology.

One of the reasons (imo) that Lando is so good/popular on teams that rank high is that it can be played in a lot of different ways, rather than having one busted set (looking at you Naga). A hypothetical pokemon that hits 15% usage because it has 3 very distinct sets that fufill different roles for teams and get 5% each is more interesting than a one dimensional mon that just gets thrown onto every team.


Re what set are they running, Earlier I Like Donkeys made a really good point that the penalty for guessing wrong about which set Naga is running can cost you the set right out the gate. With Lando you have a lot more room for error and making plays that give you information that might help you guess what it's running throughout the course of the match.

To expand on your point a little, in team-building you can get away with not running dedicated lando checks/counters to make ur team not weak to Lando.
Like sure if ur weak to z-move lando u could bring physdef HP ice bronzing...but when was the last time you've seen physdef HP ice bronzong?
U don't need a dedicated answer on ur team because lando getting a free turn probably won't cost you the game. So you can get away with using a couple soft checks, and miss predicting against them isn't the end of the world. Different story for mons like Naga and volc.

Lando just... isn't as scary. Sure it provides amazing role compression and offensive presence, and it does constrain team-building somewhat. But TBH the most threatening thing about lando is rocks (hazards are the real problem guys wake up)

 

[qways]

qways: Mimikyu is only a check to Naga, and a very shaky one, since it can only switch in on a NP or Draco Meteor.

no

If you run adamant lo, play rough + shadow sneak always kills
252+ Atk Life Orb Mimikyu Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Naganadel: 95-113 (33.1 - 39.3%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Mimikyu Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Naganadel: 211-250 (73.5 - 87.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

jolly lo kills 75% of the time.
252 Atk Life Orb Mimikyu Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Naganadel: 87-103 (30.3 - 35.8%) -- 34.6% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Mimikyu Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Naganadel: 192-227 (66.8 - 79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

you can run jolly with ghostium-z and always kill it.
252 Atk Mimikyu never ending nigthmare (140bp) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Naganadel: 229-271 (79.7 - 94.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Mimikyu Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Naganadel: 67-79 (23.3 - 27.5%) -- 69.5% chance to 4HKO


meanwhile after beating the disguise, naganadel can only do this back.
252 SpA Naganadel Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mimikyu: 147-174 (58.5 - 69.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[Divine Retribution]

I agree that Naganadel is a ridiculous mon that will go out of the tier soon. This is just a godsen for Hyper Offense.

But.... it have to be followed by a Toxapex, as well as Landorus-T (which have outstaye his welcome in OU. No Pokémon should be allowed to be that used since it was released) suspect test to give OU a new breath of fresh air.

I'm actually more concern by Landorus-T more than Naganadel. Landorus-T lacks reliable universal counter. Fighting against Landorus-T is a 50-50. If you predict the wrong set out the 6 sets Landorus-T can effectively run, you'll get smacked by it. It restrain teambulding in a sense you must pack something against it (same for Toxapex and Naganadel). Its presence in OU is as unhealthy as Naganadel.

In my opinion, no Pokémon should be allowed to stay in the S Rank that long without getting smacked by the banhammer.

Landorus-T isn't really comparable to Naganadel in my eyes because it has so much offensive counterplay. The only things that can reliably revengekill Naganadel are Scarf Greninja and Weavile/Mamoswine after a bit of chip. Landorus-T on the other hand sits at a very mediocre speed tier which isn't boosted every time it gets a kill. It might be unwallable but it is also very easy to pressure offensively.

Usage stats and viability rankings also have nothing to do with whether a Pokemon should or shouldn't be banned. Being good and being splashable do not necessarily mean a threat is broken. That being said I don't entirely disagree with a Lando-T suspect even if for no other reason than to see what a metagame without it would look like, but Naganadel is clearly the far more pressing issue at the moment.

 

[BeardyBennett]

Just want to chip in on Lando-T. Lando-T is easy to slot onto teams due to its great role compression. Yes it is versatile with a lot of good sets. Yes it can be played in just about any way you might want.

However, as noted by donkey's post, Lando-T is usually fairly easy to predict. If the opponent has no other setters, chances are they are rocking (no pun intended) defensive Rocks Lando-T. If the opponent is lacking a physical breaker, chances are they have something like a Z-move set. If the opponent doesn't have any other viable/obvious scarfers, it just might be the Scarf set. It's usually really easy to tell.

Additionally, none of Lando-T's sets need specific answers built onto the team. Chances are you already have that answer anyway, because other mons do or fill the same roles. Lando-T relies on EdgeQuake for its offenses, both of which need to be accounted for anyway. Lando-T also doesn't have like an outrageous speed tier or anything, and RP doesn't seem to be all that popular as it tends to be too weak. Thus it can typically be offensively checked as well, and usually pretty easily.

I think people just see the high usage rate and the S-ranking and think ban. In practice, it really isn't that bad. It's not OP, it doesn't centralize the meta as you don't have to run it or run specific answers to it, and nothing about it is uncompetitive. I've never been afraid of facing a Lando-T. I've never seen a Lando-T on a team and gone "ugh not this". My teams always just end up with at least one offensive, and one defensive answer. And it always happens with me using those answers for other things in the meta. Lando-T doesn't shift or break the meta game like how Duggie, Lando-I, Aegi, or Phero did. It's just a good, versatile mon, but it is not a broken one.

 

[FamousDeaf]

Landorus-T is really splashable onto teams because it have a good versatile pokemon. Landorus-T is not comparable to Naganadel and other banned pokemon (most of them is offensive), Landorus-T have enough offensive and defensive counterplays unlike Naganadel and other banned pokemon. You can have an education guess on what's Landorus-T set in team preview. Landorus-T doesn't have a high speed tier and we don't need a bullshit sets to deal with Landorus-T unlike Naganadel. I think we should wait for a bit until Naganadel is banned and we can find what's unhealthy pokemon such as Volcarona, Toxapex and other pokemon. I don't think people should see the usage rate and screaming for "X is a broken mon!" when they doesn't break the metagame like some of the broken pokemon.

 

[Creator of Chaos]

Can we stop asking for a lando T suspect. Everytime its mentioned the thread eventually gets locked and considering the metagame is so new I would rather that not happen. Please dont make the mods Mad. Naganandel and Toxapex are both far larger issue's in the meta anyway and even if they were gone theres still other stuff the council would look at. So Long story short its not happening.

That off my chest. I'd Like to talk about mega lopunny since everything that has been said about naga already and she really benefits from its presence. In the current meta With everyone reaching for Blissey, Tyraniter and Heatran she gets so many free oppurtunities to come in and just spam High Jump kick, set up a Sub or just Click a Pup and act as an alternate sweeper. I think she's slept on and with stall pretty much gone I'm surprised Lop isn't seeing more play. Yeah diancie and Mawile are probably still best megas but Lopunny is definatly in the Top 3 or 4 now. Weather this continues to be a facter after Naganandel goes (Which would enevitably lead to Toxapex and clefable making a resurgencce) I would like to see. What does everyone else think or am I just crazy?

(Lopunny) (F) @ Lopunnite
Ability: Limber
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Return
- High Jump Kick
- Substitute
- Fake Out

My Favourite set right now is actually Fake out + Sub since it give's me flexability against a wide range of Teams and act's as a lead beating stuff like webs and veil while punishing teams that only check Lop with Pex, or Offensive lando

 

[Zukrad]

Idk why is this Lando-T discussion suddenly appearing, but stop it, its always brought up and its annoying EVERY time. It makes no sense and everyone that is actually responding to the topic with an actual valid argument seems to be against it.

Just to be clear, S rank =/= banworthy, specially when of the several sets it uses, only two are S rated in the Sets VR, Defensive and Scarf (And I would argue that the latter should be just A+, but that's not the point), and high usage =/= banworthy. Lando has a high usage because its sets are so good yet so wildly different in function that, offensive and defensive Lando could very well be two different mons.

Can we stop asking for a lando T suspect. Everytime its mentioned the thread eventually gets locked and considering the metagame is so new I would rather that not happen. Please dont make the mods Mad. Naganandel and Toxapex are both far larger issue's in the meta anyway and even if they were gone theres still other stuff the council would look at. So Long story short its not happening.

That off my chest. I'd Like to talk about mega lopunny since everything that has been said about naga already and she really benefits from its presence. In the current meta With everyone reaching for Blissey, Tyraniter and Heatran she gets so many free oppurtunities to come in and just spam High Jump kick, set up a Sub or just Click a Pup and act as an alternate sweeper. I think she's slept on and with stall pretty much gone I'm surprised Lop isn't seeing more play. Yeah diancie and Mawile are probably still best megas but Lopunny is definatly in the Top 3 or 4 now. Weather this continues to be a facter after Naganandel goes (Which would enevitably lead to Toxapex and clefable making a resurgencce) I would like to see. What does everyone else think or am I just crazy?

(Lopunny) (F) @ Lopunnite
Ability: Limber
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Return
- High Jump Kick
- Substitute
- Fake Out

My Favourite set right now is actually Fake out + Sub since it give's me flexability against a wide range of Teams and act's as a lead beating stuff like webs and veil while punishing teams that only check Lop with Pex, or Offensive lando

While I would say that Mega Mawile is probably better, Lopunny is an easy top 2 Mega rn, since Mega Diance has been kind of irrelevant lately, and with a Naganadel centric meta, Diance has an even harder time to shine, meanwhile, Lopunny benefits a lot of the sudden increase of Naganadel answers

I just wanted to mention that mimikyu also counters the most common naganadel set. you need a z-move or lo and your disguise to not be broken to do so, but it nevertheless does the job.

Aside from that, I agree that there are a lot of 50/50 when playing with naganadel. It doesnt have a lot of Pokemon to Setup, so one often has to hope for the opponent to switch to get the np off.

no

If you run adamant lo, play rough + shadow sneak always kills
252+ Atk Life Orb Mimikyu Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Naganadel: 95-113 (33.1 - 39.3%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Mimikyu Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Naganadel: 211-250 (73.5 - 87.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

jolly lo kills 75% of the time.
252 Atk Life Orb Mimikyu Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Naganadel: 87-103 (30.3 - 35.8%) -- 34.6% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Mimikyu Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Naganadel: 192-227 (66.8 - 79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

you can run jolly with ghostium-z and always kill it.
252 Atk Mimikyu never ending nigthmare (140bp) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Naganadel: 229-271 (79.7 - 94.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Mimikyu Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Naganadel: 67-79 (23.3 - 27.5%) -- 69.5% chance to 4HKO


meanwhile after beating the disguise, Naganadel can only do this back.
252 SpA Naganadel Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mimikyu: 147-174 (58.5 - 69.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

While your calcs show that Mimikyu can 1v1 Naganadel in certain scenarios, there are a few things you have to consider
1.- Adamant LO is not a very good set, but that's just my opinion
2.- As you mentioned, you need to have your Disguise intact, and if your opponent clicks an attack to weaken its checks and then switch out, until its ready to sweep (aka a well played Naganadel), Mimikyu never wins.
3.- If Naganadel had used Nasty Plot prior to you switching Mimikyu in (and not during the switch) Mimikyu NEVER wins the 1v1 unless it switches on a Draco Meteor
4.- If Psychic Terrain is up (being Tapu Lele a very common partner to Mimikyu), Mimikyu can't win
5.- If, after taking a big hit, your opponent decides to switch out instead of taking the most obvious Shadow Sneak of all time, your strategy falls appart

By definition, if you have to win a 50/50 (like you said), it stops being a counter. In fact, it barely counts as a check

 

[Subject 18]

All right, time to step in. I'd like to move from this "suspect Landorus-Therian" discussion. I get it, it has a lot of usage, it runs all these sets, etc. We've heard it all before, none of this discussion is helping or telling us something we don't know. But every time this discussion comes up, people talk endless about and nothing positive ever comes from it.

Stop asking for a Landorus-Therian suspect test. Every post that asks for one will be deleted and potentially infracted from here on out, unless something drastically changes. Thanks.

 

[qways]

While your calcs show that Mimikyu can 1v1 Naganadel in certain scenarios, there are a few things you have to consider
1.- Adamant LO is not a very good set, but that's just my opinion
2.- As you mentioned, you need to have your Disguise intact, and if your opponent clicks an attack to weaken its checks and then switch out, until its ready to sweep (aka a well played Naganadel), Mimikyu never wins.
3.- If Naganadel had used Nasty Plot prior to you switching Mimikyu in (and not during the switch) Mimikyu NEVER wins the 1v1 unless it switches on a Draco Meteor
4.- If Psychic Terrain is up (being Tapu Lele a very common partner to Mimikyu), Mimikyu can't win
5.- If, after taking a big hit, your opponent decides to switch out instead of taking the most obvious Shadow Sneak of all time, your strategy falls appart

2. thats correct, but doesnt change that mimikyu is a counter the way being a counter is defined here, which takes the undamaged status into account. and as you said above, atleast once mimikyu can force out/ kill naganadel (aslong as psychic terrain isnt up)
3. see above
5. see above

Just forcing naganadel out once is already huge, as it has a hard time to get in without Voltturn support.

 

[1_TrickPhony]

Why Naganadel IS broken:
-Ungodly speed tier. And it just gets faster, you have one mon that does not have preparation for it and it sweeps your team unless you have two INCREDIBLY specialized pokemon in AV ttar and SpD Tran. This is a huge problem, outspeeding the Latis at base speed and scarf lati at +1 means that the previous best revenge killer in the game can no longer do its role, to a Dragon mon nonetheless.
-Running one of the two specially defensive tanks means that the other team just needs to chip away with physical attacks throughout the game until Naga is free to sweep. Run both, and 1/3rd of your team has no survivability to common physical megas and the physical megas can sweep (Medicham/Lopunny/Hawlucha/Pinsir/ZardX)
-You are guaranteed two powerful nukes that most teams cannot survive (Devedrake and first draco meteor). This is augmented by the ability to set up if someone switches to avoid the nuke.
-While not as common, its second set, Choice Scarf, can completely derail your counterplay plans if you have been preparing for Z-Devedrake the entire game and get swept by it when it is revealed at the end. This set can switch out too after getting 1 revenge kill, meaning it has slightly more potency against the mons specialized against Naga

Why Landorus-T IS NOT broken:
-Ice is one of the most common attacking types in the game, people would be using ice moves regardless of the existence of Landorus. Zygarde, Garchomp, and now Gliscor are all mons who have high prevalence and ice checks them.
-Any mon, even non special attacking, can toss on HP ice and do 50-80% damage depending on the set.
-Having a base 91 speed means this thing is not sweeping anyone anytime soon. Going for a sweeping set greatly removes Lando's ability to function in other roles, and there are better sweepers in SM.
-It fits into many roles well, but none of the roles cannot be beaten by several standard mons in the metagame.

Tldr; Naga is way too fast and threatening for normal mons (95% of the tier), and the more it threatens (not even necessarily through attacking) the weaker your team gets to it. Lando has a lot of roles he can perform above average, but utilizing one of those roles prevents him from using his other roles. He has average speed tier and can't snowball. Many roles above average < 1 role that is completely dominant.

 

[Finchinator]

Late to the party, but @ last page: there’s absolutely no chance Lando-I will get unbanned anytime soon and there’s absolutely no chance I will let any future discussion of it in this thread stay undeleted. Also, be sure to keep Subject 18‘s post on Lando-T in mind.

Happy turkey day

 

[BeardyBennett]

So Sand is super good right now in the Nag meta. AV Ttar for setting already gives you a defensive check, and I have found I'm still getting good power out of it as well. And Excadrill not only outspeeds and kills a +1 Nag in Sand, it also rips through Nag checks in Heatran, Ttar, AV Magearna, random anti-Nag scarfers, etc. It also has the added bonus of Rock Slide killing other current meta scourges in Volcarona even after QD speed boost, and M-Pinsir. Both are also anti-Blace which is nice. So yeah, overall Sand is just really good right now. Probably won't be nearly as good after the Nag QB, but for now it's a good route to take.

 

[paoisd]

my main problem with naganadel is that it can sometimes just destroy my favorite playstyle, bulky offense. the best part about bulky offense is that there is room for mistakes, but against a nagadel if you lose one fifty fifty it can just steamroll most if not all of your team. also, i wish i got to this first, but i definitely agree that lop is a top 2 mega right now. it is my personal second favorite mon as a whole in this meta to use as it beats tar and tran which are obviously huge right now because of naganadel. my other favorite mon to use is hawlucha. this thing steals games and it has clutched out so many for me where i should have lost. it gives a win condition practically every game.

 

[Adri]

I saw a lot of posts about naga but almost none of them had replays so I felt like I would post some. So I'm gonna post here some replays featuring Naga. Just gonna say one or two things about the matches too.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-663194168
Naga didn't precisely do a lot here, just showing it can take some hits and then sweep at very low percentage. Also at the point where naga comes on mimikyu my opponent had no "good play".

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-662182894
Naga didn't actually sweep in this game but it still made a ko + 90% on lando which could have been great for Koko. Also shows that Choice naga aren't nearly as good as Dragonium Z ones (which everyone knows but anyway).

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-661218978

This one might be more interesting. It's a bit special cause I actually choked several times (not sending naga on koko, using Hwish and not DM with tias, Switching on MMaw in front off Kartana... Yeah, I really messed up in this one) and still I won by winning the speed-tie between nagas. I think this shows how dangerous Naga can be late game even without any boost. Just kill something when your opponent's team is weakened enough and that's the gg.

So, here we are... To be honest I think Naga is broken and should be banned, even though I really did enjoy playing it and didn't have any real difficulties to beat it when I faced one. That mon is amazing at snowballing, threatens every playstyle, doesn't have any 100% safe switch-in that can recover (there's AV TTar but it's rather easy to wear down and can't recover obviously) and so on.

 

[Deleted User 91486]

In a sand team, isn't a smooth rock the preferred item for the sand setter, so that you don't have to re-set sand that often? I understand the purpose of AV Ttar as a Naganadel check, but under sand, other mons like Stakataka or even Nihilego can check Naganadel too, and Sand Rush Excadrill easily revenges it, even after it gets a beast boost.

 

[Morkal]

Personally, I want to divert from the Naganadel discussion just a bit since the consensus seems to be rounding out to (let's get rid of the thing), so let's talk about something a little more... unexpected, but needed.

We've all been arguing on Showdown about this, but a large percentage of the people on the chat and in battles (around 70% from what I've seen) think that Deo-D is deserving of a retest once the meta settles and Naga likely gets the boot. Let's break down why it'll fit a lot better now in OU than it did previously. If anyone wants to throw any additional material onto my main points please do.

1. Stats: While access to Recovery and 150 / 150 defenses are wonderful, that 50 HP is really letting it down now, especially with the advent of Z-Moves basically honing that in. With the massive Power Creep of OU in full effect as well, it has many new threats while keeping all of its old ones. Tyranitar, Greninja-Ash, Greninja, Scizor-Mega, Blacephalon, Hoopa-U, Sableye-Mega, Weavile, and many others in OU can either check or counter it, or even straight up nearly OHKO it. Not to mention 90 speed is far worse than it was during when its last stint in OU generations ago.

Relevant Calcs:

252 SpA Choice Specs Blacephalon Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Deoxys-Defense: 290-344 (95.3 - 113.1%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Tyranitar (Assault Vest) Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Deoxys-Defense: 152-180 (50 - 59.2%) -- 69.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (Good chance to OHKO with Band)
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Deoxys-Defense: 294-348 (96.7 - 114.4%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Deoxys-Defense: 195-229 (64.1 - 75.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Deoxys-Defense: 294-348 (96.7 - 114.4%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Kartana Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Deoxys-Defense: 140-166 (46 - 54.6%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

You get the idea, and that's even without Z-Moves thrown into the equation, then you'll start seeing a lot more OHKOs. It simply is too pressured with the massive shift in power, and can't really do anything to staples of OU at the moment. Not to mention Mega Sableye (which was originally banned) is the bane of Deo-D's existence, and nearly the perfect counter.

2. Deo-D didn't get anything new: Probably the worst offender here, Z-Moves basically did nothing for it, and it can't afford to lose out on Leftovers recovery since Recover simply isn't enough anymore. The only new moves it got were Brutal Swing, Throat Chop, and Stomping Tantrum, which don't do anything for it. Not to mention that plenty of old checks now have new ways to play around it. It's also outclassed by Toxapex due to having a better niche, a better ability in Regenerator, and a far better typing. This should be pretty self explanatory.

3. DeoSharp isn't anywhere near as viable as previously, and it'll increase creativity and team variety slightly: Again, due to the power creep and metagame trends, the combo is countered far more easily than it was before, not to mention it would help de-centralize Lando-T a little bit (which is needed) without being the massive centralizing force it would have been in late Gen 5 / Early Gen 6. Additional hazard control from Pokemon not named Toxapex or other staples would be a refreshing twist, and would help flesh out US/UM's metagame even more.

4. Massive amount of new Defoggers: Self explanatory, Not only did Defog get a lovely buff since Deo-D's last OU test heyday, but US/UM brought it via a move tutor to a whole slew of new threats that can easily switch in and deal with Deo's hazards while threatening Deo-D with Knock Off or other options.

5. Crippled by Status, 4MSS has never hurt so bad: Deo-D feels like it has to run a million different options to be able to handle everything in OU, and while it has nice coverage options, it doesn't have the offensive presence needed to help with it, and is usually threatened by SOMETHING on your standard OU team. Not to mention that status still cripples it halfway to hammerfell.

My point? Deo-D won't be anywhere near centralizing, and in my opinion would be a solid A- to A rank Pokemon that would help to flesh out US/UM's metagame variety, and I think is worthy of an OU test.

 

[Finchinator]

In a sand team, isn't a smooth rock the preferred item for the sand setter, so that you don't have to re-set sand that often? I understand the purpose of AV Ttar as a Naganadel check, but under sand, other mons like Stakataka or even Nihilego can check Naganadel too, and Sand Rush Excadrill easily revenges it, even after it gets a beast boost.

AV Tyranitar is a pretty mediocre set under normal circumstances. However, it is seen as ideal here for role compression purposes. It is nice for Naganadel and Blacephalon, who are both newly released. Smooth Rock has not been too popular since generation six and even then it wasn’t ever used as the main Tyranitar item afaik. While the support is appreciated by teammates, using Tyranitar as a simple hard counter to Naganadel is ideal right now and keeping Sand up throughout the entire battle is not as easy as one might imagine when it comes to bolstering the SDef of something like Nihilego, which is also very uncommon, or the Speed of Excadrill. While this is admitedly a viable option, AV is the go-to until Naganadel leaves the tier.

 

[Morkal]

You mention at the end of your post that it helps flesh out the US/UM's metagame variety, but in what way? Maybe I'm just ignorant, but I really don't see what it does to contribute to the meta game. There's really no reason to unban a Pokemon in my opinion unless it helps out with an on-going problem in the tier.

It's no worries, I'll explain. Hazard control has basically been reliant on Toxapex and a few others for Gen 7, and I don't think that's going to change especially now that Toxa got buffed. Deo would give players an additional option for both hazards, and screens, while also helping to flesh out additional type synergy throughout the metagame.

 

[Subject 18]

I'll post now before this takes off as well. This isn't the time nor the place to talk about retesting Pokemon from Ubers. We're too early into USM to really be discussing adding more Pokemon to the mix. Maybe this is something that will be brought up in later months, but for now please stick to discussing the current meta. If you are adamant about wanting to bring down Ubers feel free to post in Policy Review or to private message the OU council members.

Thanks and Happy Thankgiving.

 

[patlop2307]

Has anyone given AV Torn any credit yet?

AV Torn is p good in the meta rn as far as i can tell, cuz it does its job in luring stuff really well with moves such as Knock Off and U-Turn. However, Tar can potentially be a problem for it, which is why u have to run Superpower on it p much all the time.

*I forgot to mention that I'm not exactly a fan of defog Torn. Without any extra bulk, it's too frail for my taste and gets forced out by too much stuff. Some examples would be Greninja, Ash-Greninja and opposing Torn

Ik, this was p short but lemme know what y'all think.

 

[Morkal]

I'll post now before this takes off as well. This isn't the time nor the place to talk about retesting Pokemon from Ubers. We're too early into USM to really be discussing adding more Pokemon to the mix. Maybe this is something that will be brought up in later months, but for now please stick to discussing the current meta. If you are adamant about wanting to bring down Ubers feel free to post in Policy Review or to private message the OU council members.

Thanks and Happy Thankgiving.

Is there a list of OU council members somewhere? I'm unable to post a topic in the Policy Review forum.

 

[Gary]

Is there a list of OU council members somewhere? I'm unable to post a topic in the Policy Review forum.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/meet-the-overused-tiering-council.3598286/

 

[Eboera]

I wanted to float up a few things I haven't seen talked about but that I've been seeing a lot of. And some of these things may or may not be OU, but maybe suspect to rising in other metagames.

- AV Slowking I have been seeing a lot of, SpDef trick room user, great offensevie move set, it also got recycle which I've seen people using a stall set with.
- Incineroar, Knock off, Drain Punch, I've seen it been extremely effective. Also it's not available so this is probably an invalid point, but whenever it gets Intimidate I think that that will be an eventual tipping point.
- Kommo-o it got a bunch of very flexible Move Tutor moves, it can go special or physical, it is naturally pretty bulky and you can do bulk up sets, or even support sets since it got stealth rock.

Again idk if any of these are OU status, but I've seen them a lot recently so I think it could be discussed. Also this could just be people excited to try out new things because move tutors.

 

[Kamen Galaxy]

You know, using non-OU things in OU shouldn't be a concern. If you decide to run a sub-perfect mon, then go for it. Subpar sets are just as viable as standard sets, and I guess they could be alternative ways of playing your favorite Pokemon. So, AV Ttar is fine by me.