Signature Items

[JJayyFeather]

Open discussion thread, so any member of ASB may contribute their opinions.

Signature Item Revamps

Alright ladies and gents, with CAP updates, rank cutoffs, and USUM implemented into ASB, I think it's time to finally revisit our signature items once more.

To start out, let's assemble a list of items we'd like to see discussed, whether it be for buffing, nerfing, general concerns, or whatever. The list will start with the few items that were already brought up in the feedback thread.

Topics

Inversion Charm

Inversion Charm - Item Type: Signature | Item Cost: 8 CC | Effect: Raises the Base Attack Power of moves containing the words "Cut", "Cross", "Claw", "Scissor", "Scratch", "Swipe", or "Slash" is increased by three (3). Confers the ability Simple to the holder. Increases the holder's Attack by one (1) rank. | Affected Pokemon: Inkay, Malamar

- Complaints about Swagger completely trashing Malamar​

Elemental Stones

Fire Stone - Item Type: Signature | Item Cost: 8 CC | Effect: The affected Pokemon enters battle Flash Fire/Blaze partially activated, increasing the Base Attack Power of Fire moves by one (1). Blaze and Flash Fire can be fully triggered normally, raising the Base Attack Power increase from one (1) to three (3). Increases the Pokemon's highest true base stat (e.g. 130 Atk) of Attack, Defense, Special Attack, and Special Defense by one (1) Rank. If the highest true base stat is tied, each Rank is raised. Increases accuracy of Fire-Typed moves by 10% (flat) and prevents recoil damage and stat stage reduction due to the usage of them. | Affected Pokemon: Vulpix, Ninetales, Growlithe, Arcanine, Eevee, Flareon, Pansear, Simisear
Water Stone - Item Type: Signature | Item Cost: 8 CC | Effect: The affected Pokemon enters battle with Hydration, Swift Swim and Rain Dish activated, regardless of weather. Continuously activates Water Absorb granting two (2) HP per action. Increases the Pokemon's highest true base stat (e.g. 130 Atk) of Attack, Defense, Special Attack, and Special Defense by one (1) Rank. If the highest true base stat is tied, each Rank is raised. If the holder has neither Rain Dish nor Water Absorb, increases the Base Attack Power of Water and Ice moves by two (2) | Affected Pokemon: Poliwhirl, Poliwrath, Shellder, Cloyster, Staryu, Starmie, Eevee, Vaporeon, Lombre, Ludicolo, Panpour, Simipour
Leaf Stone - Item Type: Signature | Item Cost: 8 CC | Effect: The affected Pokemon enters battle with Overgrow and Chlorophyll activated. Increases the Base Attack Power of all attacks with "Leaf", "Petal", or "Hammer" in their name by two (2). Increases the Pokemon's highest true base stat (e.g. 130 Atk) of Attack, Defense, Special Attack, and Special Defense by one (1) Rank. If the highest true base stat is tied, each Rank is raised. Grants access to the move "Leaf Blade" if not already in the pokemon's movepool. | Affected Pokemon: Gloom, Vileplume, Weepinbell, Victreebel, Exeggcute, Exeggutor, Exeggutor-A, Nuzleaf, Shiftry, Pansage, Simisage

- Brought up because Matezoide wanted it to have something to do with Gluttony to give the Elemental monkeys (and Victreebel) some love.​

This phase of the discussion will remain in session for 72 hours, or until we run out of things to bring up, or until I remember to advance this, which ever comes last.

Post some sig items you want to discuss down below!

 

[Un passant ordinaire]

Give Wishiwashi something since he kind of evolves

We should give Inversion Charm a side effect like "Contrary only affects negative stat changes"

About the elemental monkeys, I don't know which buff we should give them, so I'll wait for some interesting ideas

 

[Dogfish44]

I'd like to posit that Signature Z-Crystals should be examined in this thread, as they are much of a muchness.

Uh, general ramblings:

• Don't think that the FWG Stones need Gluttony modifiers. They're already ridiculously good items -_-
• Dusk and Dawn Stone both honestly want a tuning up, based on current sig items. Dawn is a difficult one since GameFreak gave it to some weird mons mind...
• Link Cable and Soothe Bell fall into the same issue as the above - it's mainly that power creep has hit them slightly.
• Protector is horrible. Please fix.
• Stick goes about the problem the wrong way around (Farfetch'd already has plenty of high-crit moves, and wants more than a Scope Lens for it's problem -_-)
• Jaw Fossil Tyrantrum is terrifying now that it has the higher natural SpD. Can we balance this out?
• Old Amber... see Protector.
• Plant/Sandy/Trash Cloak: These are probably overwhelming at the moment.
• Relic Crown: Was designed with love, and now needs some TLC to be viable.
• Audinite: Could definitely be raised to 100% on the healer rate.
• Houndoominite: Needs to literally just be a regular one unless Houndoom picks up something new now?

 

[Toon]

Solar Ray and Luna Ray

Why does Lycanroc-Day want ~400speed Other than after people buff dodge it'll be able to dodge everything lol

Lunar RAy with Lycanroc-Midnight has the same problem as Golurk and Pidgeot, and lol why is Marowaka on here


although both of these are minor and prob wont change anything ig, just things to bring up just b/c

 

[JJayyFeather]

Re above I was going to do sig crystals in a different thread just to keep ideas separate and also expedite the process a bit, but ight. I'll have my opinions on things afterwards

 

[JJayyFeather]

Thoughts:

FWG Stones: Agree with DF, I don't think it fits thematically and it's just overloading the item.
Dawn/Dusk Stone: Right, these exist. Yeah these could probably use a tune-up, but possibly minimal.
Link Cable/Soothe Bell: These definitely need help, no one ever would use them, except in fringe cases that don't actually exist.
Protector: lol I remember when we didnt touch this after buffing magmarizer and electirizer, let's share the love
Jaw Fossil: Honestly, I don't think it needs a change. I haven't seen anything that would suggest that Tyrantrum is in an overbearing place as is.
Old Amber: lol right this exists, needs love
Cloaks: Nerf pls, these are ridiculously overloaded
Relic Crown: uhh i actually have no clue how to rate this item :P
Houndoominite: stripping it all the way down is quite absurd if I do say so myself. Stripping it of 6 Fire BAP and 3 overall BAP all at once is a massive hit to the mon. It definitely needs to be rebalanced, but I don't think the mon needs to be fully gutted like that.

More suggestions:

Sail Fossil: This item I'm pretty sure is actually just under the mark for usability, and on a subpar mon.
Reaper Cloth: Why the hell does this item buff only two moves in the whole movepool, when Dusknoir has so much to work with. No stats, and just a nuisance pressure buff.
Drives: These need to be turned into Attachments, or given actual effects.
Plume/Skull Fossil: WHy does this increase Def?

Re Toon:

Solar Ray: Agreed, this should be adjusted
Lunar Ray: Eh, the item seems to do fine for a Lycanroc-N. Marowak-A is on here because that is it's evolution method. It's a nighttime level up.

 

[Dogfish44]

Houndoomnite: Criteria for recieving Mega Stone buff generally sits at "Ability that strictly negates another", "Having Huge/Pure Power", and/or "Being weak as heck". The latter is daft and rarely applied (Why Manectric and Houndoom have such buffs, but there is no similar love for Sableye, Beedrill, Altaria, or Banette is beyond me - Audino essentially counts here since it's duplicate-ability stuff is as weak as the piss water that people try to pass off as beer..). Houndoomnite needs trimming back anyway because it's silly, but if we're going to be leaving it with a buff, I'm going to make an argument for consistency there.

Sail Fossil: Gives 14 BAP Blizzards on a mon with Snow Warning. It's very borderline though, aye.
Reaper Cloth: Astonish/Shadow Sneak/Shadow Punch (3), but point taken. tbh the Pressure buff is fairly signifigant given, well, Dusknoir. Attach on a +1 Highest Stat (Def/SpD, they're tied), maybe strengthen Pressure, and voila: my own definition of hell.
Drives: Agreed. Attachment 'em. NEXT.
Plume/Skull: Because Rampardos was originally 2/2 defenses (with 3/2, maybe swap to +SpD), and because I happened to be using Archeops the most often, and ran Hasty. I absolutely would approve of a buff to Plume, but I'll let someone else propose that :P

 

[JJayyFeather]

I'd almost rather just slightly pull back on the power that we gave Houndoominite (4 ranks of stats is a bit absurd, it realistically would be just fine with 1 or 2 ranks of stats), and give minor QoL buffs to the other shit megas, like Beedrill.

Also, topic list as of this post:

Topics

• Inversion Charm
• FWG Stones
• Dawn/Dusk Stones
• Link Cable and Soothe Bell
• Protector
• Stick
• Jaw Fossil
• Old Amber
• Sandy/Plant/Trash Cloak
• Relic Crown
• Mega Stones starting with Houndoominite
• Sail Fossil
• Reaper Cloth
• Drives: Resolved (Signature --> Attachment)
• Plume Fossil
• Skull Fossil
• Solar Ray
• Lunar Ray
• Signature Z-Crystals

Let's say, 24 more hours to let people toss topics at us before we begin hacking away at the list, yes?

 

[JJayyFeather]

Alright, let's get to hacking away at the list.

3 topics at a time. Anything that sits for 36 hours without discussion will be moved from unless there was no actual suggestion/consensus reached.

Inversion Charm

Inversion Charm - Item Type: Signature | Item Cost: 8 CC | Effect: Raises the Base Attack Power of moves containing the words "Cut", "Cross", "Claw", "Scissor", "Scratch", "Swipe", or "Slash" is increased by three (3). Confers the ability Simple to the holder. Increases the holder's Attack by one (1) rank. | Affected Pokemon: Inkay, Malamar

No consensus yet, but a variety of suggestions have been made either in discord or in feedback.

FWG Stones

Fire Stone - Item Type: Signature | Item Cost: 8 CC | Effect: The affected Pokemon enters battle Flash Fire/Blaze partially activated, increasing the Base Attack Power of Fire moves by one (1). Blaze and Flash Fire can be fully triggered normally, raising the Base Attack Power increase from one (1) to three (3). Increases the Pokemon's highest true base stat (e.g. 130 Atk) of Attack, Defense, Special Attack, and Special Defense by one (1) Rank. If the highest true base stat is tied, each Rank is raised. Increases accuracy of Fire-Typed moves by 10% (flat) and prevents recoil damage and stat stage reduction due to the usage of them. | Affected Pokemon: Vulpix, Ninetales, Growlithe, Arcanine, Eevee, Flareon, Pansear, Simisear

Water Stone - Item Type: Signature | Item Cost: 8 CC | Effect: The affected Pokemon enters battle with Hydration, Swift Swim and Rain Dish activated, regardless of weather. Continuously activates Water Absorb granting two (2) HP per action. Increases the Pokemon's highest true base stat (e.g. 130 Atk) of Attack, Defense, Special Attack, and Special Defense by one (1) Rank. If the highest true base stat is tied, each Rank is raised. If the holder has neither Rain Dish nor Water Absorb, increases the Base Attack Power of Water and Ice moves by two (2) | Affected Pokemon: Poliwhirl, Poliwrath, Shellder, Cloyster, Staryu, Starmie, Eevee, Vaporeon, Lombre, Ludicolo, Panpour, Simipour

Leaf Stone - Item Type: Signature | Item Cost: 8 CC | Effect: The affected Pokemon enters battle with Overgrow and Chlorophyll activated. Increases the Base Attack Power of all attacks with "Leaf", "Petal", or "Hammer" in their name by two (2). Increases the Pokemon's highest true base stat (e.g. 130 Atk) of Attack, Defense, Special Attack, and Special Defense by one (1) Rank. If the highest true base stat is tied, each Rank is raised. Grants access to the move "Leaf Blade" if not already in the pokemon's movepool. | Affected Pokemon: Gloom, Vileplume, Weepinbell, Victreebel, Exeggcute, Exeggutor, Exeggutor-A, Nuzleaf, Shiftry, Pansage, Simisage

From above it seems as if we agree that changes aren't necessary. But as a general note, the suggested change to the stones was to give them an interaction with Gluttony.

Dawn/Dusk Stones

Dawn Stone - Item Type: Signature | Item Cost: 8 CC | Effect: Increases the Base Attack Power of Psychic-type and Ghost-type attacks by two (2). Increases the Pokemon's highest true base stat (e.g. 130 Atk) of Attack, Defense, Special Attack, and Special Defense by one (1) Rank. If the highest true base stat is tied, each Rank is raised. | Affected Pokemon: Snorunt, Kirlia, Froslass, Gallade

Dusk Stone - Item Type: Signature | Item Cost: 8 CC | Effect: Increases the Base Attack Power of Dark-type and Ghost-type moves by two (2). Increases the Pokemon's highest true base stat (e.g. 130 Atk) of Attack, Defense, Special Attack, and Special Defense by one (1) Rank. If the highest true base stat is tied, each Rank is raised. | Affected Pokemon: Murkrow, Misdreavus, Honchkrow, Mismagius, Lampent, Chandelure, Doublade, Aegislash

As noted by DF, these items are powercreeped out currently, and as such, probably need some love.

------
Now accepting suggestions/comments/etc related to the three topics above.

 

[Complications]

I think in respect to the Dawn and Dusk stones, we could consider changing the BAP modifiers to affect the specific Pokemon's STABs, rather than Ice/Psychic and Dark/Ghost, respectively. Especially for Dusk Stone, the dark move BAP buff is exceptionally redundant, not not very useful in most scenarios. Since this proposal is technically a nerf for Mismagius, who has only one STAB, the fix would be a higher modifier for Ghost type attacks or potentially a buff to Levitate.

As for the others I have yet to come up with any suggestions.

 

[JJayyFeather]

Inversion Charm: I don't think this item needs to be changed.
FWG Stones: No change needed imo.

Dawn/Dusk Stones: How about adding to it "Increases the BAP of STAB attacks by 1." I don't like removing the identity of it being focused on certain typings, but I do agree that it should help STABs a bit. Besides, the items only need a small retuning, it isn't like they are guttered.

 

[Elevator Music]

i proposed something in feedback for inversion charm, lets do that

Inversion Charm - Item Type: Signature | Item Cost: 8 CC | Effect: Raises the Base Attack Power of moves containing the words "Cut", "Cross", "Claw", "Scissor", "Scratch", "Swipe", or "Slash" is increased by three (3). Confers the ability Simple to the holder. Increases the holder's Attack by one (1) rank. Contrary only affects move which decrease stats.| Affected Pokemon: Inkay, Malamar

 

[Un passant ordinaire]

Looks good to me

 

[Elevator Music]

Inversion Charm: put to a vote plz

Elemental Stones: skip

Dawn/Dusk Stones: vote between Comp and Jayy's suggestions.

For Comp's to make it a more concrete proposal, I guess something like boost STABs by 2 BAP, 3 if they only have 1 type? whatever who cares


alternatively people could chime in with better suggestions lol

 

[Frosty]

Inversion Charm: Put emma's suggestion to vote
Elemental Stones: they are fine ffs
Dawn/Dusk Stones: I fail to see where exactly they are underpowered. They are on par with rare candy. Maybe you guys just like endless power creep. I guess I can live with the suggestion of just giving the mon adaptability (comp suggestion), although that particularly seems like a handful. But if you want to give a boost, just do that. The funny part is that the end result will be 100% better than Rare Candy, which, last time I've checked, was our balance parameter.

But you guys do what you guys wanna do. We can keep boosting items forever for all I care

 

[JJayyFeather]

Inversion Charm: Vote coming soon™

Inversion Charm - Item Type: Signature | Item Cost: 8 CC | Effect: Raises the Base Attack Power of moves containing the words "Cut", "Cross", "Claw", "Scissor", "Scratch", "Swipe", or "Slash" is increased by three (3). Confers the ability Simple to the holder. Increases the holder's Attack by one (1) rank. Contrary only affects move which decrease stats.| Affected Pokemon: Inkay, Malamar

What change should be made to Inversion Charm?
a) No change.
b) Remove the striked part,, add the bolded part.

FWG Stones: No change incoming

Dawn/Dusk Stones: Waiting 24 hours before I just send it to a vote with the following slate:

What bonus outside of ranks should Dawn/Dusk Stones give?
a) No change.
b) Append to the current bonus "Increases the BAP of the Pokemon's STABs by 1."
c) Replace the current bonus with "The holder gains the effects of the ability Adaptability. Adaptability's bonus is increased by 1 BAP if the holder only has 1 type."

======
With Inversion Charm headed to a vote and FWG Stones decidedly not getting a change, let's keep the conversation moving.

Link Cable and Soothe Bell

Link Cable - Item Type: Signature | Item Cost: 8 CC | Effect: Increases the Pokemon's two (2) highest true base stats (e.g. 130 Atk, 85 SpD) of Attack, Defense, Special Attack, and Special Defense by one (1) rank each. If the true base stat values are equal, each Rank is raised. | Affected Pokemon: Kadabra, Alakazam, Machoke, Machamp, Graveler, Graveler-A, Golem, Golem-A, Haunter, Gengar, Gurdurr, Conkeldurr, Boldore, Gigalith, Karrablast, Escavalier, Shelmet, Accelgor, Phantump, Trevenant, Pumpkaboo, Gourgeist

Soothe Bell - Item Type: Signature | Item Cost: 8 CC | Effect: Increases the Pokemon's two (2) highest true base stats (e.g. 130 Atk, 85 SpD) of Attack, Defense, Special Attack, and Special Defense by one (1) rank each. If the true base stat values are equal, each Rank is raised. | Affected Pokemon: Golbat, Meowth-A, Persian-A, Crobat, Pichu, Cleffa, Igglybuff, Togepi, Buneary, Lopunny, Woobat, Swoobat, Swadloon, Leavanny, Type: Null, Silvally

Just another friendly victim of power creep. These probably just need a little love tap in the right direction in order to be better.

Protector

Protector - Item Type: Signature | Item Cost: 8 CC | Effect: Reduces the Base Attack Power of attacks used against the Pokemon by two (2). | Affected Pokemon: Rhydon, Rhyperior

Last time this item came around, it was back when Magmarizer and Electirizer got love, and this item definitely needs some of that love.

Fire away!

 

[Frosty]

Link Cable and Soothe Bell: I disagree with the need of a boost. Again: they are probably as good or better than rare candy. If you are to change them, since it such a wide array of mons, I'd just turn them into carbon copies of rare candy and be done with it.

Protector: It was done basing off focus sash. This was before focus band got the newest effects. My suggestion would be to base off Focus Band and make it slightly better (like: moves can't deal more than 20hp (which is slightly less than the 22hp from focus band) or make it affect combos too or something of the like)

 

[Elevator Music]

for protector, focus band that protects against combos is pretty scary. tho then again its rhyperior

could make it focus sash+focus band even though thats kinda lame

also could add something like dubious disc where it allows rhyperior to not incur sluggish and boosts rock wrecker's acc

 

[Dogfish44]

Good lord, I kinda expected this thread t'gain something whilst I had one of my minor meltdowns.

(Bump)

 

[Elevator Music]

if nobody adds anything in the next day or so, we could just slate (cleaned up versions of) Frosty’s and my suggestions for Protector

seriously whatever, at the end of the day its Rhyperior

 

[ZhengTann]

Y'never know, I might evolve my Rhydon. Then again it's me we're talking about.

 

[Elevator Music]

k, can we plz move on

 

[JJayyFeather]

This reminds me that I need to put up the other votes. Also this:

Link Cable and Soothe Bell
No change.

Protector

What should the effect of Protector be?
a) Reduces the Base Attack Power of attacks used against the Pokemon by two (2). (No change)
b) Damage taken by this Pokemon by any single attack is reduced to at 22.
c) Reduces the Base Attack Power of attacks used against the Pokemon by two (2). The holder does not incur Sluggish from using Rock Wrecker and Rock Wrecker gains 10% flat accuracy.

This will be moved to a vote immediately.
======
Stick

Stick - Item Type: Signature | Item Cost: 6 CC | Effect: Guarantees all attacks score a critical hit. Increases Attack Rank by one (1). | Affected Pokemon: Farfetch'd

Starting point:

Stick goes about the problem the wrong way around (Farfetch'd already has plenty of high-crit moves, and wants more than a Scope Lens for it's problem -_-)

Jaw Fossil

Jaw Fossil - Item Type: Signature | Item Cost: 8 CC | Effect: Boosts Strong Jaw's Effect by two (2) Base Attack Power. Increase accuracy on all moves by 10% (flat). Increases Special Defense by one (1) Rank. | Affected Pokemon: Tyrunt, Tyrantrum

IIRC the reasoning for this being brought up is that Tyrantrum got some love in the rank changes and no longer needs the love from this. But, eh, it seems in-line with what we should be gunning for, unless you want to just give it more hitting power instead of the SpD.

Old Amber

Old Amber - Item Type: Signature | Item Cost: 8 CC | Effect: Raises the Energy Cost of all incoming attacks by two (2). Increases Attack by one (1) Rank. | Affected Pokemon: Aerodactyl

Boosting pressure for this mon is just bad. It's not a stall mon at all and this item doesn't even come close to making it one.

Fire away!

 

[Elevator Music]

Honestly for Stick, it’s harder to imagine something more effective than Razor Claw++, where ‘Slash’ etc moves are boosted and Farfetch’d gets some sort of Attack boost (either rank boost or auto-Defiant). But that’s kinda lame, hopefully someone can come up with something better.

I’m fine with Jaw Fossil as is, wouldn’t be opposed to removing the SpDef rank boost.

Old Amber... I tossed out the idea of removing the charge on Sky Attack. That’s pretty weak by itself, but I can’t think of anything else useful. Maybe buff Unnerve to prevent all consumables :)

 

[JJayyFeather]

Stick: ehhhh gimme some time to find some inspiration bc if we create another razor claw++

Jaw Fossil: I personally don't think it needs to be tweaked any.

Old Amber: I like the idea of replacing the Pressure effect with Power Herb's effect. Tailors to something that it does well already.