Discussion: Choice Specs Infernape, Nasty Plot isn't always better

[SNX7]

Infernape@Choice Specs
Timid
252 SpAtk / 232 Speed / 24 HP
252 SpAtk / 208 Speed / 48 HP
-Fire Blast / Flamethrower
-Hidden Power [Ice] / [Electric]
-Grass Knot / Overheat
-Focus Blast

Why isn't this in the anlysis? Because Infernape gets Nasty Plot? Well I decided a little while ago to try out a Choice Specs Infernape, something I have NEVER seen on shoddy before (though I doubt that I'm the only one that runs one) and I have been quite pleased with the results. This Infernape hits harder than Nasty Plot varients right off the bat, and gets 1 more attack due to the absence of Nasty Plot. 460 SpAtk isn't the greatest for a Choice user, but 3 STAB attacks with 120 BP or more and good type coverage make up for that. Now to explain this set.

EV's:

252 SpAtk / 232 Spd / 24 HP: This spread allows for 341 speed, outspeeding base 105's like Mismagius. 252 SpAtk is needed since 104 base SpAtk isn't bad, but it's not the highest for a Choice Specs user out there. The 24 HP was placed here because I am no longer running Close Combat and I don't need any attack EV's any more. You could run 252 SpAtk / 252 Speed, but I'm not a huge fan of that.

252 SpAtk / 208 Spd / 48 HP: Hit's 334 speed, outdoing all base 100's and Jolly Garchomp (who you OHKO with HP Ice) Everything else is the same, except for 24 more HP EV's.

Attacks:

Fire Blast / Flamethrower: One of your main STAB attacks. I run Fire Blast since the extra power is really nice, and it nets a OHKO or 2HKO on a lot more than Flamethrower would. Blaze and Fire Blast late game is pretty much gg for anything switching in on it, even if it's resisted. I would only recomend running Flamethrower here if you really can't live with an 85% accurate move.

Hidden Power [Ice] / Hidden Power [Electric]: HP Ice is my prefered choice, though if you use this as a lead you may get some mileage out of HP Electric when taking down lead Gyarados (it will OHKO Bulky Gyarados). HP Ice will OHKO Garchomp, Salamence, Dragonite and Gliscor without fail. Remember though, unless your opponent is 4x weak, a STAB Fire Blast or Focus Blast hitting neutral will do more damage than Hiddden Power. Tentacruel also walls this set without HP Electric.

Grass Knot / Overheat: Grass Knot is highly worth considering here just for those annoying Starmie's who think they can safely switch into Focus Blast or Fire Blast all the time. Grass Knot also does a number on Milotic, and OHKO's the likes of Hippowdon and Swampert. Overheat is worth considering here simply because 140 BP, STAB and Choice Specs is going to hurt, and hurt a lot. Combine that with Blaze late game, and you're OHKO'ing stuff left and right. I still prefer Grass Knot though.

Focus Blast: Ah, a huge selling point of this set. Infernape gets STAB on Focus Blast, and has the capability of 2HKO'ing standard Blissey's 100% of the time. I originally ran Close Combat here (mainly because I forgot Infernape got Focus Blast) but after discovering the damage that this attack did, I went to it and never looked back. Focus Blast has great type coverage, STAB, and great power. Only disadvantage is it's accuracy, 70% isn't that great, especially on something as frail as Infernape. In my opinion, this beats out Close Combat in every way possible on this set.

Damage Calcs:

Fire Blast:

Blissey (252 HP / 252 Def, Bold): 27.31% - 32.07%
Dusknoir (252 HP / 180 SpDef, Careful): 52.72% - 62.24% (99% 2HKO with Leftovers)
Hippowdon (252 HP / 252 Def, Impish): 78.57% - 92.38%
Gliscor (252 HP / 252 Def, Impish): 90.4% - 106.21%
Regice (252 HP / 252 SpDef, Calm): 60.16% - 70.88%
Cresselia (252 HP / 148 SpDef, Bold): 40.32% - 47.52%

Hidden Power [Ice]:

Salamence: 143.81% - 169.18%
Dragonite: 121.98% - 143.65%
Garchomp: 121.85% - 143.42%
Gliscor: 140.96% - 166.1%

Hiddeon Power [Electric]:

Gyarados (212 HP, 0 SpDef): 102.6% - 120.83%
Starmie (172 HP, 0 SpDef): 74.34% - 87.5%
Milotic (148 HP, 0 SpDef): 44.29% - 52.17%
Tentacruel (204 HP, 172 SpDef, Calm): 38.07% - 44.89%

Grass Knot:

Starmie (172 HP, 0 SpDef): 84.87% - 100%
Gyarados (212 HP, 0 SpDef): 43.75% - 51.56%
Milotic (148 HP, 0 SpDef): 63.04% - 74.46%
Hippowdon (252 HP, 0 SpDef): 104.76% - 123.33%
Swampert (252 HP, 0 SpDef): 122.03% - 143.56%

Focus Blast:

Blissey (252 HP, 252 Def, Bold): 54.62% - 64.29%
Milotic (148 HP, 0 SpDef): 56.79% - 66.85%
Cradily (252 HP, 92 SpDef, SS boost): 71.01% - 83.78%

If you would like any more damage calcs added, please let me know and I'll edit them in ASAP. This Infernape, while being purely special, has been running rampent over many teams on shoddy. It also works well as a lead. Now I hope I havn't forgotten anything. I'd like to hear what others say about this set, so post your thoughts and opinions please.

 

[Little Green Yoda]

Could you elaborate on why you think Focus Blast >> Close Combat in every way possible on SpecsApe? What are you using it on other than Blissey/Cradily/Regice/etc.?

 

[SNX7]

First of all, Focus Blast is running off of Infernape's 460 special attack, instead of 250 attack. It has the same base power, but trades off the -def, -spdef effect for 70% accuracy. Close Combat only 2HKO's Blissey, but so does Focus Blast. Focus Blast will also do about the same amount of damage to Snorlax (who commonly carrys Curse, and isn't OHKO'd by Close Combat anyways).

Focus Blast does more damage against hypothetical Bronzong switch-in's, 2HKO'ing even max HP / SpDef Bronzong. Close Combat won't even 2HKO a -def nature Bronzong running 0 Def EV's.

Focus Blast also gives you more sweeping potential late game, since it is running off the higher attack stat and has the same BP as Close Combat.

Focus Blast will hit everything that I've encountered just as hard or harder than Close Combat.

 

[RaikouLover]

looks good. I don't know about a lead though. A lot of leads are running Choice Scarf or Focus Sash and will screw you. And Yanma will make you cry.

 

[SNX7]

Actually, I've been surprised. Obviously stuff like Yanmega and Gengar is going to force you to switch, but it does really well against many common leads like Weavile, Gyarados (if you carry HP Electric), Salamence, Tyranitar, Swampert, Abomasnow, Breloom and Forretress.

 

[Crisis]

Close Combat only 2HKO's Blissey, but so does Focus Blast.

... but Close Combat isn't going to miss 30% of the time. Focus blast is only going to 2HKO 49% of the time while CC will 100%.

 

[Phuquoph]

The reason a Specs set isn't used much is entirely because of the 70% accuracy of Focus Blast, in my opinion. A 2HKO on Blissey and Snorlax is guaranteed with Close Combat because it doesn't miss. If you use Focus Blast, a 2HKO is on either is really shaky as you're relying on a 70% accuracy attack to land twice in a row.

 

[Chou Toshio]

I'd be interested in how Grass Knot does against Gyara. My guess is it would do some pretty damn good damage if Gyara is switching in on this thing (though I'm too lazy to go do damage calcs . . . )

 

[comoesa]

Nasty plot Flame thrower takes care of dragons...This is a viable set but not better than life orb/expert belt/nasty plot mixape. For one focus blast accuracy, second close combat handles blissey and other better. Finally one of the good aspects of mixape is to hit specially and physically. Suppose Blissey switches in you use focus blast but ti parlyzes your ape thiink abou that.

 

[éyaang]

Actually, sounds nice. I must try Overheat/Grass Knot/Focus Blast/HP Ice on Shoddy.

 

[SNX7]

Nasty plot Flame thrower takes care of dragons...This is a viable set but not better than life orb/expert belt/nasty plot mixape. For one focus blast accuracy, second close combat handles blissey and other better. Finally one of the good aspects of mixape is to hit specially and physically. Suppose Blissey switches in you use focus blast but ti parlyzes your ape thiink abou that.

What else does Close Combat handle better? Focus Blast (despite it's 70% accuracy) is better IMO because it will hit everything just as hard or harder than Close Combat. The only way Blissey is going to paralyze Infernape is if Focus Blast misses (which is a possibility, I'll admit)

Also, I'd like to point that yes, MIXape does hit from both sides very well, hence why it's called mixape. There are other Infernape sets you know.

I also see nothing in this thread saying that you can't run Close Combat. I've found from testing that Focus Blast seems to work better, which is why I have it on here and not Close Combat.

One more thing: a Nasty Plot'd, Life Orb'd Flamethrower from Infernape will only 2HKO Salamence, the weakest defensivly of the dragons, not OHKO.

I'd be interested in how Grass Knot does against Gyara. My guess is it would do some pretty damn good damage if Gyara is switching in on this thing (though I'm too lazy to go do damage calcs . . . )

Grass Knot vs. Gyarados is there.

 

[Crisis]

What else does Close Combat handle better? Focus Blast (despite it's 70% accuracy) is better IMO because it will hit everything just as hard or harder than Close Combat. The only way Blissey is going to paralyze Infernape is if Focus Blast misses (which is a possibility, I'll admit)

It's more of a possiblity than it *not* happening. Besides, it's not like carrying a physical move to handle Blissey is anything new for special sweepers.

I'm nitpicking really. Infernape is one of my favourite pokemon of the new generation but he's so predictable and in so many teams that everybody can counter him. Specs is far less common than other builds and, as you've shown, perfectly viable; definitely one I'll consider.

 

[Chou Toshio]

^Ah, my bad. But see? It almost does half. Ok, that's not cutting it but still . . .

 

[SNX7]

Stealth Rock will make that a definate 2HKO. Also know that that's against a Bulky Gyarados, which not everyone runs. Stealth Rock makes it a definate 2HKO.

Crisis: You're right, it is nitpicking. I had a problem with Blissey surviving Close Combat and my opponent switching into a physical wall. With Focus Blast, they don't have that luxery since it's going to do a lot of damage to whatever is switched in (except ghosts, obviously) As I stated before, there is nothing in this thread saying you can't run Close Combat, I just highly prefer Focus Blast from numerous testing battles.

 

[cim]

Will these threads ever die? Please, we all know that sweepers can run Choice items. We get it. Seriously, this isn't a huge discovery or anything. It's a fucking Choice set. Big deal. Don't discuss it. Please. Ever.

I am 100% sure that the next thread that's posted will be "Discussion: Hyper Beam Porygon-Z can OHKO Blissey!!!"

 

[SNX7]

Will these threads ever die? Please, we all know that sweepers can run Choice items. We get it. Seriously, this isn't a huge discovery or anything. It's a fucking Choice set. Big deal. Don't discuss it. Please. Ever.

I am 100% sure that the next thread that's posted will be "Discussion: Hyper Beam Porygon-Z can OHKO Blissey!!!"

......Except that most sweepers have choice item sets in their analysis's. Take a look at the Infernape analysis. See a Choice Specs set? Didn't think so. Smogon is supposed to be about competitave battling, and I posted a set that I have never seen that is very effective in competitave battling. Excuse me for trying to share something with the rest of the community.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

Why run a Naive nature if you're only using special attacks? Surely a Timid nature is more preferable for those rare occasions where you might just be able to survive a special hit.

 

[Phuquoph]

You haven't really outlined as to why you've found Focus Blast superior to Close Combat. Who is it actually a better option against? (compared to Close Combat, Grass Knot, Fire Blast and HP Ice)

 

[SNX7]

Why run a Naive nature if you're only using special attacks? Surely a Timid nature is more preferable for those rare occasions where you might just be able to survive a special hit.

Thank you, I forgot to change it when I took Close Combat off.

Phuquoph, that question is very difficult for me to answer because on paper, Close Combat IS better. The reason that I'm using Focus Blast is because I've used this set in many, many battles, and overall I've found Focus Blast to do more for me when actually battling. You never know what your opponent is going to switch into Infernape, which is another reason why this question is difficult to answer. Focus Blast will do more damage to switch-ins like Starmie, Bronzong, Swampert, Milotic and Gliscor. If everything were perfect and I could always know what my opponent was going to do, I would run Close Combat, but I don't. Focus Blast will do more damage to whatever they switch-in even when I predict wrong.

I know that is not a very solid arguement, but I'm having trouble explaining my reasoningsince I know that Close Combat looks better on paper (though this goes for many things in pokemon, take a look at Rhyperior for example)

 

[comoesa]

Well of course this set will hit a little harder TC, as it is a viable set. I dont know why a special sweeping set isnt on the analyses.....it seems that a special and physical set would be the first two set to think of when looking at Infernape.

Since where talking about Infernape how bout a set ive been using on shoddy and it is pretty useful.

Infernape
Naive
Expert belt
230 ev's speed/230 ev's atk/50 ev's spatk
Grass Rope
Flame Thrower/Fire Blast(for you risk takers)
U-Turn
Close combat

Pretty good you really only use the special moves when super effective to get a boost with expert belt. Or you could just use life orb.
It feels great to see a starmie switch in and get KO'ed by u-turn.
You can hit blissesy hard handle bulky waters and grounds and this can put a dent in cressy while switching out to a viable counter pretty good lead as well.
What do you guys think?

 

[obi]

I'd be sweeping with Flamethrower / Fire Blast, not Focus Blast. In other words, it's almost entirely for Blissey, Snorlax, and Cradily.

Oh, how about Heatran. What's the calcs on that comparing Focus Blast to Close Combat?

 

[Chou Toshio]

"On Paper doesn't reflect real life switches" arguement makes a lot of sense-- I buy it. However, I think the reason phuquoh is concerned is because on paper:

(.7)*(.7) = 49%

You have a 49% chance of landing 2 focus blasts in a row. Even slight, but the Blissey/Lax definitely have odds in their favor here.

 

[SNX7]

Chou: Yea, unfortunatly that's Focus Blast's huge downfall

Obi:

Close Combat vs. 52 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 77.98% - 91.96%
Focus Blast vs. 52 HP / 0 SpDef Heatran: 142.56% - 167.86%

When I talk about sweeping late game, I'm actually being situational, (which I shouldn't be in a topic like this) in that your opponent has something left that won't be OHKO by Fire Blast but will be by Focus Blast. I suppose that's a little to situational though, and should be used as a reason in an arguement like this.

 

[Swimrunner]

If I wanted to run a Specs set, why not just run Naive/MixApe spread and replace Nasty Plot with Hidden Power Ice?

Aside from that however, Infernape is not the greatest of choice item users because of its poor defenses. Infernape is pretty hard to get in more than a few times outside of revenge moments due to his fragility, but the sweeper should in theory not need more than those token few opportunities to nasty plot and smash things.

 

[SNX7]

It's actually not to hard to bring Infernape in on Ice Beam's, Will-O-Wisp's, or other resisted attacks. Granted, you can't keep doing this the whole battle (without Wish support anyways), but once Infernape is in, it's going to do some damage.