DP Tier Discussion Thread - BL and UU

[onionchowder]

Just a comment;

It seems that most of what you're doing is moving the "over-powered" UU pokes up to BL, as those are the ones that people actually use and get a lot of attention (AKA complaints)

You say you're discussing the line between UU and BL, but there don't seem to be many requests to move pokes from BL down to UU, since you never see them in battle and people dont think about moving a BL pokemon DOWN to UU, unless they want to build a team specifically with them.

From what I see, the UU tier seems to be much, much smaller compared to the OU (+BL) tier than before. Maybe instead of, say, moving Clefable up to BL, you could move down some weak counters down from BL to UU.

Just saying, consider that you're draining UU of its pool of interesting pokemon


On another note, why are most un-evolved pokemon banned from UU? someone on shoddy told me that, and i was wondering why, and which ones aren't banned (i.e. Electabuzz and Scyther)

 

[ODDish]

Just a comment;

It seems that most of what you're doing is moving the "over-powered" UU pokes up to BL, as those are the ones that people actually use and get a lot of attention (AKA complaints)

Actually at the moment a lot are simply being marked "for testing", to assess whether or not they actually are too powerful. The only ones that have gone up are Typhlosion, Azumarill and Slowking, and Feraligatr. Crobat, Ursaring, Ambipom, Mamoswine were mistakenly placed as UU ... and Jumpluff is still being debated.

You say you're discussing the line between UU and BL, but there don't seem to be many requests to move pokes from BL down to UU, since you never see them in battle and people dont think about moving a BL pokemon DOWN to UU, unless they want to build a team specifically with them.

Claydol, Cloyster, Torterra, Steelix, Drapion, Shedinja have all been suggested to be moved down. Leafeon is on the to be tested. Swellow has already come down ...

From what I see, the UU tier seems to be much, much smaller compared to the OU (+BL) tier than before. Maybe instead of, say, moving Clefable up to BL, you could move down some weak counters down from BL to UU.

The problem with moving weak counters down is that they in turn have to have counters ... and may result in fewer UU pokemon seeing any use at all. Finding the balance is increasingly difficulty.

On another note, why are most un-evolved pokemon banned from UU? someone on shoddy told me that, and i was wondering why, and which ones aren't banned (i.e. Electabuzz and Scyther)

Because by allowing un-evolved pokemon in UU, you run the very real risk of turning a unique metagame into OU-lite ... as for which ones weren't banned, the list of widely accepted NFE's last stood at -Scyther -Magmar -Electabuzz -Trapinch -Poliwhirl -Clamperl
-Vigoroth -Pikachu

 

[X-Act]

why is scizor BL at smogon? recently one or two others as well as myself on marriland have been arguing that spiritomb is BL and scizor is OU (EDIT! spiritob is now BL and scizor is now OU on marriland). My reasoning took alakazam into concideration. The zam has the same attack (special not attack though) as scizor- it simply has more speed. Scizor has more HP and more defense, making it even. Traditionaly the SINGLE reason alakazam was not OU was it's lack of a power up. Scizor has a few ways to pump up- it even has baton pass. More so- one weakness and most everything else it resists. The move pool is awesome. It has two types of STAB. Even more important is technician- this is sort of liek having stab on weak moves not your own type. This makes quick attack and double hit or whatever REALLY strong (i might be wrong about double hit as it ads up to 70, but in game it says 35...) scizor with quick attack almost one shotted my electivire. Double hit on my scizor breaks subs then burns through reaming HP. Why is it BL? speed? double weakness to fire? (i dont see many fire moves away from heatran though they are way more common than flying and steel). Is it scizor's lack of an earth move to counter the (elusive) OU fire pokemon? Im curious! -matt

Scizor is supposed to be OU; it's just that the tiers are not updated yet.

 

[Shadow Sunny]

Scyther should be UU IMO as it is tottally different from it evo,scizor

 

[Trust]

Murkrow should be allowed as a NFE. It has 91 base speed, and Honchkrow 71. You can't say that it's worse than Honchkrow, because in speed, Murkrow is better.

 

[sanjay120]

Kakuna is better than Beedrill in defense obviously we should allow Kakuna in NU.

There are a lot of Pokemon like that and unless the difference is incredibly significant such as Scyther or Porygon2 they're not being allowed.

 

[Forsety]

Personally, I believe Clefable makes sense in BL - compare it to Miltank (currently BL). It's almost as good of a special wall as Miltank is physical (the only points where Clefable is worse being 15 lower in it's primary defensive stat and 40 lower speed). Clefable, on the other hand, has a huge amount of other advantages - a vastly superior ability, a much better movepool (both in terms of support and offense), and the fact that Normal is a better type for special walling than physical.

Clefable has never been BL material no matter how good its movepool is simply because its stats are average at best. Clefable is a trick of all trades and absolute master of nothing.

In the end it doesn't matter how many moves it has, its still working with 4 moveslots and average stats. Go for a defensive set and it'll probably fail to do anything to the UU steel types or risk getting fighting mauled before setting up. Offensive set and it has no speed to work with or its sacrificing all its decent defenses.

Comparing it to Miltank isn't even the same thing since the fat cow excels in speed as well as defenses and offenses. A better comparisson would be to Lickilicky or Porygon2 who are actually similar in stat distribution and movepools. But then you'd find the two are absolute powerhouses who overshadow Clefable defensively and offensively.

Its more like Swampert vs Quagsire where Swampert overshadows Quagsire through simple raw power making Quaggy a poor mans Swampert.

 

[sanjay120]

Clefable is a master of CMing up in your face, Cosmic Powering up in your face, loling at your passive damage, absorbing your status, SoBftboiling, Thunder Waving, etc.

It's like a Blissey of sorts.

 

[Bologo]

Clefable has never been BL material no matter how good its movepool is simply because its stats are average at best. Clefable is a trick of all trades and absolute master of nothing.

In the end it doesn't matter how many moves it has, its still working with 4 moveslots and average stats. Go for a defensive set and it'll probably fail to do anything to the UU steel types or risk getting fighting mauled before setting up. Offensive set and it has no speed to work with or its sacrificing all its decent defenses.

Comparing it to Miltank isn't even the same thing since the fat cow excels in speed as well as defenses and offenses. A better comparisson would be to Lickilicky or Porygon2 who are actually similar in stat distribution and movepools. But then you'd find the two are absolute powerhouses who overshadow Clefable defensively and offensively.

Its more like Swampert vs Quagsire where Swampert overshadows Quagsire through simple raw power making Quaggy a poor mans Swampert.

Yeah, but you seem to have forgotten just how good Magic Guard makes it.

Its base stats are extremely misleading IMO. Remember, with Magic Guard, it can do amazing offensively, because even with that low speed, it can still have Life Orb with no friggin recoil.

Clefable can also have no recoil from Double-Edge, have a no-status damage Facade, and as already mentioned, it can Encore any statusing move and such to get off some free Calm Minds.

None of the Steels in UU are completely safe against Clefable since it can learn Focus Punch to catch them on the switch for the probable OHKO.

A lot of the fighters in UU have crappy defenses, and remember, they aren't safe either, because who knows, Clefable could be running Psychic and OHKO them as well.


Then you have the defensive side of Clefable. Calm Mind is mentioned again because it raises special defense while allowing for killing power.

Encore ruins all set-up and statusing, letting you get off Cosmic Power which is incredibly annoying with Softboiled for instant recovery.

There's also the Toxic Orb set that allows sucking up status while annihilating things with Facade, and recovering if the opponent manages to do a lot of damage.


Seriously, here we have a tank that is incredibly hard to bring down, as most tanks/walls are brought down easily by Toxic, which Clefable takes no damage from. An instant recovery move to screw up anything that wants to try and kill it, and it also only has 1 weakness.

95/73/90 is a lot more sturdy than people would think, especially because of only 1 weakness, and the offenses are amazing if it's holding Life Orb:

Absolute max special attack w/+personality with Life Orb is 383, the same as a max special attack w/+personality base 125.

Absolute max attack w/+personality is 340, 1 point higher than a max attack w/+personality base 105.

I think that's pretty friggin sweet. Unlike ADV, Clefable can actually use that physical attack quite well thanks to the new ability.

Basically what I'm saying is that the incredible unpredictability of Clefable is what's making everyone question its viability in UU since it's extremely difficult to find a foolproof counter.

Heh, if it stays UU, it'll be cool since we do need a top-star in UU, but if it goes to BL, Clefable still won't care.

 

[Forsety]

It's like a retarded CMBlissey of sorts.

Never compare those two unless you want to make it seem worse. If Clefable tries to be a Blissey in a OU-lite style it'll always seem like its retarded little brother.

None of the Steels in UU are completely safe against Clefable since it can learn Focus Punch to catch them on the switch for the probable OHKO.

Don't you think you're being slightly over-optimistic? Focus Punch is a rather situational counter both you and I know that. Brick Break would be more standard but theres the obvious power issues.

'None' isn't quite right either since Steelix can shrug most Pokemon's non-STAB FP's off pretty easily. OHKO's from a non-STAB Psychic on most fighters even if it is Life Orb'd. Very optimistic when you consider the entire Hitmon clan lives in UU all infamous for their special sturdiness.

if it's holding Life Orb:

Absolute max special attack w/+personality with Life Orb is 383, the same as a max special attack w/+personality base 125.

Absolute max attack w/+personality is 340, 1 point higher than a max attack w/+personality base 105.

This bothers me, I'd be more inclined to be impressed if those figures were either minimum's or just half of its possible offenses. If that were the case than we could really say it has great offenses with incredible bulk. But as it stands with a full 252 into offense you don't leave much for other areas. Also I'm not sure if Life Orb is calculated that way but I'll take your word for it.

All the statups are great and all but in the end Magic Guard doesn't suddenly make Clefable impervious to all forms of Phazing, Sleep and Hazing. Burn may not damage but its still going to nerf the our friendly physical Clefables. Also Clefable itself I'm pretty certain is still vulnerable to Encore, Taunt etc.

Basically what I'm saying is that the incredible unpredictability of Clefable is what's making everyone question its viability in UU since it's extremely difficult to find a foolproof counter.

I'm aware enough, its a given with Cleffy. But even unpredictibility has its limits when you don't have a base over 100 and have 60 speed to work with.

 

[sanjay120]

How about it's like the retarded CMing lovechild of Miltank and Kecleon?

Also it learns Flamethrower for Steels.

 

[ODDish]

This is justa repost of Fishin's summary from a few pages at, just keep track of where we are at.

Just one thing to note Jumpluff has been removed from the BL waiting list due to comments made in this thread ...
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33501

Current Discussion
- Clefable
- Jumpluff (other thread)

BL waiting list. The ones to be removed.
-Feraligatr
-Typhlosion
-Crobat
-Azumarill
-Ursaring
-Slowking
-Mamoswine
-Ambipom


UU's to be tested.
-Walrein
-Glaceon
-Pinsir
-Cacturne
-Lapras
-Ninetales
-Poliwrath
-Hitmonlee
-Leafeon
-Clefable

BL's with recommendations for movedown to UU or to be Tested.
Note: Weak recommendations are placed for historical purposes, so that we don't repeat say, the Miltank or Houndoom debate.
-Claydol (Very Strong)
-Cloyster (Very Strong)
-Torterra (High)
-Steelix (High)
-Drapion (High)
-Shedinja (Medium - high)
-Empoleon (Medium)
-Regigigas (Weak)
-Houndoom (Very Weak)
-Miltank (Very Weak)
-Flygon (Very Weak)

Widely Acceptable NFE's. (Debatable ones are in the other thread)
-Scyther
-Magmar
-Electabuzz
-Trapinch
-Poliwhirl
-Clamperl
-Vigoroth
-Pikachu

Non-obvious Banned NFEs (AKA, BL)
Snover
Hippopatas

 

[sanjay120]

Kadabra, Chansey, and Haunter need to be in the banned NFE list right?

Also Cacturne is imo UU. He's great with Sandstream, and has amazing attacking stats, but mediocre movepool, Sharpedo defenses, and meh speed.

 

[ODDish]

Kadabra, Chansey, and Haunter need to be in the banned NFE list right?

I'd say Dusclops too ... however as NFE's were being discussed in a seperate thread I think we avoided making as few firm decisions as possible. However as that thread seems to have vanished ... how do people want to progress with the NFE discussion? New thread? Resurrect the old thread? Discuss them here?

Also Cacturne is imo UU. He's great with Sandstream, and has amazing attacking stats, but mediocre movepool, Sharpedo defenses, and meh speed.

I totally agree, however obviously someone back along the line didn't ... Cacturne too powerful? Any takers?

 

[Bourbon]

I dunno, lets test it. With few dark resists in UU, STAB Sucker Punch could really wreak havoc....

 

[Cynthia]

Cacturne's pretty stoppable IMO. Anything faster than Cacturne with a priority move stops the SD/Sash?Sukcer Punch set quickly. And its defenses are sad.

 

[Hyra]

I dunno, lets test it. With few dark resists in UU, STAB Sucker Punch could really wreak havoc....

Doesn't Absol also have that? and last time I checked Absol had higher attack and was still UU. Cacturne seems like a nice Pokemon to drop (since when was it BL though?)

 

[sanjay120]

Absol is BL iirc.

 

[Hyra]

Absol is BL iirc.

Nope, both Cacturne and Absol are listed as UU on the site.

 

[Peanut-Lover]

Cacturne may be powerful, but it dies quickly - any drill peck, brave bird, flamethrower/fire blast coming off of a faster pokemon will knock him out.
Leave in UU.


May I open discussion of Cloyster?

BL is a bit too much for it IMO. It has counters in UU. Water/Ice with not-so-good attacking stats and lack of a recovery move sort of hurts it.

Weak to rock (the thing its spinning away sometimes - along with rock slide/stone edge), fighting, electric, steel (aggron deals with a lot of the weaknesses.)

 

[Bourbon]

Cloyster is BL? Wow, it really sucks though. A spinner weak to Stealth Rock shouldn't be in BL. If it had recovery, I would reconsider.

 

[sanjay120]

Cloyster is LOL180BASEDEF but that's about it. It can spin but it's SR weak. UU.

 

[Bologo]

Yeah, Cloyster should be UU. Seriously, it can't spin very well because of a Stealth Rock weakness, and it can't make up for that like Torkoal who at least has some nice statusing moves to counter the Ghosts that come in.

It has an extremely hard time switching in since its crap-ass special defense combined with fecal matter for HP that don't let it live through a frickin Thundershock or an Absorb.

Lastly, while everything else in BL got better when DP came to life, Cloyster no only didn't get better, but it got much worse with the addition of Shed Shell that made everything else outclass it at Spiking/Spinning/Etc. Then there was Stealth Rock, the insanely high attack stats of the newer pokemon, Close Combat, getting an ability that REALLY doesn't help it since it only gets two multi-hitting moves. There was also the addition of Choice Specs making more pokemon want to try out special attacking.

There's also the fact that if Cloyster wants to be any good at walling anything physically, since it doesn't have recovery, it needs to pour all its EVs and personality into HP and Defense, which means that its attacking will suck, and it'll be a dumbfuck thanks to low special defense.

Heh, Cloyster was put in BL when a lot of the stuff was still more theory, but I think its time to make this guy clean out his desk and be demoted. In UU he's great though, although not uncounterable for all of the reasons I just stated.

 

[Forsety]

May I open discussion of Cloyster?

Not really. On the basis its almost a 100% consensus anyway Cloyster is UU if you look at the update list Shiny posted.

Its no good doing a list if nobody checks.

 

[Lee]

Honestly, it would be a tragedy for Cloyster not to be UU. He brings a lot of positives to the UU game, and it would be ridiculous to suggest that he's unstoppable in this environment. He has decent offences, but a limited attacking movepool and his Toxic Spikes have no effect in UU considering the popularity of the Nidos, Muk, Toxicroak, Vileplume and Tentacruel (?).