32 turns of stall in the Hail: Walrein
I've been using this Walrein with very much success in ShoddyBattle, very few things are getting through it anymore. I started off a little differently, but for the past day or so, there haven't been any changes to this set.
Wait, stalling in D/P? Yes, it is possible. If all is set-up correctly, you will indeed stall for 32 turns, and there are a few ways to break out of the stall cycle, but I'll get to that later. For now, here's the set.
EDIT: If this thing needs a name, I'll go by "StallRein". Seems like most other people have picked it up already. Personally speaking, I would go with WALLrein, or Walrein for short. :-p
Walrein (♂) @ Leftovers
Ability: Ice Body
EVs: 220 HP/244 Def/46 Spd
Bold nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Surf / Blizzard / Toxic
Defense Tier Analysis
With the above EVs, this Walrein is Defense tier 123.25 and Sp. Def tier 119.67. This is a higher score than a 252/252 Bold Weezing (123.07 Def, 115.22 Sp. Def), but below a 252/252 Gliscor. While it has more weaknesses than Weezing, its special defense is more well rounded.
Dusknoir (a well rounded wall) scores (122.63, 119.68) when 252/252 +Def. Essentially, this Walrein is stronger than it in physical defense, while nearly equal in special defense.
Unavailable in this analysis is of course the effects of Ice Body + Leftovers. Restoring 12% health each turn is quite a massive advantage over these other walls, who would otherwise be 0% as hail cancels out their leftovers, or only 6% in typical circumstances.
With the above EVs and 31 IVs in everything, Walrein will outspeed 0 Skarmory and Swampert. With the magic HP EVs listed above, Substitute will cost you 104 HP per turn, while Leftovers will give you 26, and then Ice Body will give you 26 more per turn.
So lets do a little math here, shall we? With the above EVs, you hit 416 HP.
Turn 1: Substitute. Lose 104 HP. Gain 26 from Leftovers. Gain 26 from Ice Body
Turn 2: Protect. Gain 26 from Leftovers. Gain 26 from Ice Body.
Turn 3: Substitute again.
26 + 26 + 26 + 26 is... 104 HP. Wow. Isn't that great? As Substitute has a max of 16 PP, and Protect has a max of 16 PP as well, this gives rise to the title of this thread: 32 turns of stall.
But wait... there are common counters to substitutes. Namely, phazers, double-hit, taunt, and pokemon that are faster than you. I'll address these one at a time.
1. Phazers: It helps to use protect to help scout, but murphy's law states that Protect won't help you all the time. Walrein is base 65 speed, and with the EVs, they jump you above the base 70 tier of pokemon. Meaning you will roar before Skarmory and Swampert. In my experience, these are the most common phazers. Granted, there are much faster pokemon that can roar... and skarm can invest speed EVs instead of HP/Def... but these all will cause a disadvantage in one form or another. (Speedy pokemon tend to be too fragile to phaze, and putting EVs from Def/HP into Speed just to be a Walrein counter for Skarm seems a bit silly)
If worst comes to worst and you predict a roar, neither of them will like a base 120 100% accurate Blizzard as you leave.
2. Double-Hit / Triple-Kick: Ah, the bane of substitutes... normally at least. But there's a problem with Double-Hit. Technician Choice Band Adamant Ambipom deals 76 - 89 x 2 damage to this Walrein, meaning that the most powerful Double-Hit pokemon will NOT break through your substitute. Meaning you will out-stall and 16 turns later Ambipom will die from hail.
According to Metalkid's calculator, Adamant Choice-Band 252 Atk Hitmontop Triple Kick will do 32 - 38 damage (avg 35). On the second hit, that becomes 59 - 70 (average 64.5). The third hit will strike for some 30% damage.
One little problem here. On the 2nd hit of an Adamant Choice Band 252 Atk Hitmontop... TripleKick still has not broken the sub... at least on the average. After 2 hits, you're only doing 91 to 108 damage. You need to deal 104 damage to break the sub. You're only dealing 99 average with a triangle distribution. (meaning there is a very small chance that you're actually going break this sub)
Granted, if you add Choice Band + Technician, Hitmontop will break through on the 3rd hit dealing some 30 to 35% damage. But then you get a free switchin to (ghost pokemon of choice), and Walrein lives to fight another day.
Needless to say, under typical circumstance, you will not break this Walrein's substitute.
First of all, you can protect to scout for Taunt, then switch to an appropriate counter while they waste a turn taunting you. Second, the king of taunting pokemon is BulkyGyara, who is 3-hit KOed by Blizzard in hail (cancels out leftovers)... while Bulky Gyara is doing 19.21% - 22.41% with Earthquake while you heal 12% each turn. Thats like a 10 hit KO. Don't even think about waterfall. Stone Edge is a possible 3-hit KO dealing 40.38% - 47.36%.. So if you blizzard on the turn they taunt, you'll be ahead by 1 turn and essentially beat Gyarados.
Dragon Dance is only an issue if they start to Stone Edge you. Walrein will ROFL at both earthquake and waterfall.
DD-Tyranitar may cause problems, especially STAB Super-effective Stone Edge as well as losing the hail advantage and Blizzard dropping its accuracy rate and increasing his Sp. Defense. However, Surf is a 3-hit KO on the 0/0 def version, so if you have a substitute up you Walrein will be able to dish out damage before he leaves. I wouldn't worry about taunt here. Keep this in mind in Surf vs Blizzard debates.
4. Pokemon who will hit you before you get the substitute up. There are two cases where this matters:
* You haven't started the substitute / protect engine yet
* A slower pokemon broke your sub before he died from hail / poison / burn / whatever, and the opponent switched in a faster pokemon.
All other times, you will be able to infinitely use substitute -> protect -> substitute -> protect till they die. (or you use it for 32 turns and you're out of PP)
And even if they're faster, it doesn't matter if they hit you or not. What matters is if they hit you for more than 74% damage. Because once you get that substitute up, they're done for in 16 turns with the hail... unfortunately, Metalkid's calculator just died on me right now. So I won't be doing this section to check for who this Walrein can safely start the cycle with. Regardless, you can see that this Walrein is quite bulky indeed, as its substitutes survive Adamant Choice Band Hitmontop Triple-Kick....
Okay, Damage Calculations for this beast. Keep in mind that you regain 12% health each turn, and can use protect to gain a free 12% health.
Choice Band Adamant 252 Earthquake: 50.72% - 59.62%. If you catch him on the switch, you can safely substitute afterwards and start the stall cycle.
Choice Band Adamant 252 Outrage: 60.58% - 71.39%. You still can safely get your substitute up and out-stall him.
ChainChomp Draco Meteor: 56.97% - 67.07%.
ChainChomp Fire Blast: 32.69% - 38.46%
Needless to say, all forms of Garchomp are effectively walled. If he uses swords dance, your cycle has begun and he'll die in 16 turns, unable to break the infinite subs.
Choice Band Heracross Close Combat: 118.03% - 138.70%
Choice Scarf Heracross Close Combat: 79.09% - 93.03%
Choice Band Heracross Megahorn: 58.89% - 69.47%
Choice Band Heracross Stone Edge: 65.63% - 77.16%
So obviously, the only problem with Heracross is either GUTS Close Combat or Choice Band Close Combat. Predict the close combat and switch in your ghost pokemon, and fire back with something good. Or, carry Gliscor around to help make Stealth Rocks, counter Heracross and do something to T-Tar. This walrein is Heracross weak.
Bulky Gyarados + Dragon Dance + Stone Edge: 54.81% - 64.42%
Bulky Gyarados + 2 DD + Stone Edge: 72.84% - 85.82%
Bulky Gyarados + 3 DD + Stone Edge: 90.87% - 106.97%
Lesson? Don't let Gyarados Dragon Dance 3 times while you do nothing. Lol. Even with a Dragon Dance, Gyarados is walled by this Walrein and you can start the subsitute/protect combo, and wait for 16 turns for Gyarados to die.
Walrein's EVs are geared towards the physical side. However, you should know what to do when up against a Starmie... I'm only going to focus on Thunderbolt... Grass Knot is not working correctly in Metalkid's calculator :-(
Spinner Set Thunderbolt: 37.50% - 43.99%
SpecStar Thunderbolt: 68.99% - 81.01%
Expert Belt Starmie Thunderbolt: 55.05% - 64.66%
The flaming monkey returns!
Pure Physical Life-Orb Close Combat: 82.69% - 97.36%
Pure Physical Life-Orb Stone Edge: 46.15% - 54.33%
MixApe Life-Orb Close Combat: 67.55% - 79.57%
Life-Orb 252 Cross Chop: 56.73% - 66.59%
Life-Orb 252 Thunder-punch: 64.18% - 75.48%
Life-Orb 80 Thunderbolt: 74.04% - 87.02%
Needless to say, its the special version of Electivire that you need to worry about.
The good news about everything that beats this thing... is that they all follow a very distinct pattern. Close Combat and Electric attacks. Which is why I include Rotom on my team. Just kidding :-p But essentially, you can more or less predict the attack comming, as without STAB they are not going to hurt you enough to prevent you from using a substitute. For example, Cross Chop Electivire just doesn't cut it. Thunderpunch Infernape doesn't cut it, and even Stone Edge Heracross doesn't cut it.
5. The last thing to obviously worry about is weather changers. There really isn't a thing I can say here... aside that Rain Dance doesn't hurt Walrein that badly and is beneficial to Surf at least. (Swift Swim Kabutops Stone Edge raping your hail team aside...) That is a solid thing that you can't really stop aside from putting Abomasnow back into the fray.
Again, T-Tar is quite dangerous as it possesses 4 of the possible ways to counter this Walrein... and can execute up to 3 of them at the same time. (Roar, Taunt, Weather Change, and can be faster than Walrein). Aside from that, switch in on Blissey or whatever you can safely counter (Weavile is one of them), roar Blissey away if necessary, and start stalling. Pretty basic strategy.
The few other pokemon that has managed to out-stall this guy is...
Articuno -- Pressure, Roost, and stalls like a mo-fo as well. Thrives in the hail. Frankly you can't touch this thing at all. Stealth Rocks + roar helps here, but no real direct damage.
Scizor -- Roost Scizor is immune to toxic. Not much you can do...
Acknowledgments goes to OmegaDonut for recommending roar on this beast, exponentially increasing its usefulness.
Here is a log of Walrein in action stalling a team out 6-0. I haven't been logging all of my battles and probably want to know about other specifics.
1. Rapid Spinners -- Starmie is countered by any ghost pokemon who knows T-Bolt. That includes Gengar and Frosslass. I also run Pursuit Weavile because I get greedy with killing Starmie. Donphan is killed by Surf / Blizzard, and Hitmontop is also similarly owned by Ghosts who know Psychic (like... Gengar)
2. Roar/Whirlwind keeps getting brought up, but before you do so, please tell me a good roar/whirlwind pokemon faster than Skarmory that at the same time is good at typical phazing duties.
Anyway, the log doesn't show any complicated cases like those, but as shown in this post, those situations are thought of already.
This seems like a great idea, especially in a hail team. I might try one sometime. 2 Questions
1) Is it easy enough to get in??
2) If for some reason you don't have the option of stalling, does it still function well in the team
Very nice, but how do you keep it hailing nonstop? Do you set up an abomnasnow first?
I have also been able to switch into Weavile several times. Brick Break is too weak to destroy Walrein. I haven't run damage calculations, but the weaviles I've faced haven't been able to stop Walrein from switching in. (I'd like to check up on Choice Band Weavile however).
2) When stalling fails (like when I was vs a rain dance team), I still found use in phazing the opponent away to scout their team in the early game. Knowing all 6 opponent pokemon is a decent advantage... although I would do everything in my power to ensure that Abomasnow doesn't die early to restart the hail when necessary.
I probably should tell a little bit more how I do it...
1. Abomasnow: Necessary. Duh. I run subseeder, but only because ShoddyBattlers tend to leave Blissey in while I subseed. >_>
2. Tentacruel: Near Perfect switch-in for Abomasnow. I have rapid-spin + Toxic Spikes. I don't care for Heracross because by the time they switch in, they'll be out-stalled by the Walrein engine. Resists fighting, fire, and steel (Metagross _really_ ruins your day)
3. Walrein stalling engine. I wait for a switch-in, then stall for 32 turns while chipping away 6% of the opponent's health per turn. Roar the walls out, and continue to force Toxic Spikes upon the opponent.
Pretty much fantastic.
Boy DT, this is really good. Who says Stall doesn't work in D/P!! I bet you could use this really well in conjunction with CB Aqua Jet Azumarill.
All the damage from Toxic Spikes will lower a lot of pokes into KO range after some time. Then bring out Azumarill for the sweep!
Lol, I forgot about the possible Toxic moveset that I used to run before I added Tentacruel + Toxic Spikes. Toxic Spikes is so much more deadly... and Blizzard/Surf is useful. But I added the mention of Toxic on this guy if anyone is interested.
Very interesting and very innovative!
I'll definitely consider tinkering around with this set, but more importantly I'd love to play against it! If you ever see me on Shoddy DT please feel free to send a challenge my way as I love playing new and creative sets!
Well, this looks really nice! Like you stated, Tyranitar is a problem. Keeping Abom alive too. You can't risk switching in Abom too much so essentially he is somewhat of a dead weight.
I have faced two Walreins, and one of them really gave me trouble. [the other not so much]
But now I see why. It does, indeed, sound like a great staller. We just need some more calculations to see if it's really worth it.
I'll tell you this from my experience. When Metalkid's calculator comes back up I'll confirm them.
1. I can substitute after a Garchomp Earthquake, Fire Blast, Fire Fang, or Draco Meteor. Set up your sub, or blizzard them to death. I'll have to check Outrage on a damage calculator... as no one seems to want to lock Garchomp into an Outrage vs a hail team.
2. Walrein survives a Specsmence Draco Meteor... not by much. But enough to Blizzard him on that turn.
3. Flare Blitz from Infernape is weak. Close Combat on the other hand dishes out some serious damage.
4. I've survived Scarf Heracross Stone Edges and Megahorns, but never a Close Combat :-(
5. 104 subs means Blissey does not break the subs.
6. I've barely survived a Magnezone Thunderbolt just once.
In the D/P analysis, it is listed that Steel types will usually counter Walrein, most notably (in my mind) Metagross. I decided to run some figures to see just how much of a threat Metagross actually is. Here's what I found.
Metagross's Meteor Mash vs this Walrein (assuming Hail):
--Standard CBGross (Choice Band, Adamant, 232 Atk EVs): 51.44-60.58%
(In the hail, that's a 2HKO roughly 1/4 of the time.)
--Standard Agiligross (252 Atk EVs): 34.86-41.11% (not even a 3HKO)
(Life Orb adds roughly another 11-12%, which would make it a guaranteed 3HKO.)
--Standard Special Attacking Gross's Grass Knot vs Walrein (Life Orb, Modest, 252 SpAtk EVs): 60.82-71.39% (2HKO)
Not as bad as I thought it would be, but that could be my ignorance showing itself--I'm not sure.
On the other hand, Walrein's Surf can retaliate against Metagross for 38.19-44.78%, a 3HKO. (41-48.08% on standard Agiligross)
HOWEVER, Hail damage and Subs aren't being factored in those calculations. Actually, the Grass Knot calculation doesn't really matter, as this Walrein can outrun that Metagross. The CB Gross is still faster, though, so it might be an idea to put 8 Def EVs into Spd to outrun that set.
Agiligross causes significant problems once it either opens with Agility or catches on to the plan and uses Agility on a Protect.
Well, that's not bad considering that Metagross is supposed to counter Walrein.
Oh, Dragontamer wants to check on CB Weavile's Brick Break?
That's 43.99-51.68% damage on this Walrein.
EDIT: I've been using Metalkid for all of these calculations; what's stopping you from using it, Dragontamer?
This actually brings me to my most pressing concern, which is what your strategy is once Walrein has completed its stall, which won't last forever. It is important that your other three Pokemon are well balanced enough to take on whatever OU team you come across (I'm assuming OU here as you have mentioned many OU Pokemon as potential threats), with particular consideration going into the fact that Aboma's Hail will be hurting all the non-Ice Pokemon on your team just as much as your opponent.
EDIT: Beaten quite badly by CardsofTheHeart on the Metagross problem, but those numbers confirm what I said about the CB version. Life Orb Meta will die to the stall even faster, so you should rejoice if you come across that variant. A surprise Choice Specs Grass Knot could cause problems obviously, but you could use Magnezone or Dugtrio for revenge kills.
*falls over with shock*
OMG. That set is EXACTLY the same as one I was testing a few days ago in the Battle Tower with a hail team, right down to the last EV. I used Blizzard by the way, because Chomp is spammed there. Two observations:
Non-Surf variants should really avoid TauntApe. He is capable of smashing the Subs, Taunting, and then wiping you out.
Toxic doesn't work that well. Too many steel types, other poisons, Guts users, etc, running around. Tends to do more harm than good.
Other than that, it works like a dream. (Albeit a frosty one)
i was playing this and i found a variation of this for a sandstorm team
this works great and allows almost the same idea as walrien but for a sandstorm team, although it does run into trouble with phazers
after this depending on damage being dealt by the opponent i sub into bliss and use aroma and bring him back in
also if u dont want to use rest u could replace it with something like gyro ball and use a wishbliss to heal it
I was thinking about looking into something like this, just didn't have the time to but numbers to it. Seems great that it works, and I'll be using one in a hail team I'm gonna design.
This thing is annoying. I know this from experience.
Alternatively, you can substitute on the first turn, then wait for the hail to kick in and kill metagross 16 turns later.
So the CB version is a 3-hit KO or 32-hit KO if you know how to handle him (and if he indeed only does some 50-60% damage)
1. Choice Scarf Weavile -- Specsmence still causes trouble, and if I run across one I need backup. Garchomp and ChainChomp are out-stalled by this guy, so scarf-chomp isn't a problem. Weavile also works as an excellent DD-Tar counter, as it takes too many DDs for T-Tar to get above a Scarf-weavile's speed. With spikes, this weavile breaks any other weavile with brick-break, and demolishes any psychic pokemon.
An early counter for Flamethrower Azelf is Abomasnow (lead) -> Tentacruel (resists fire) -> Weavile (immune to psychic) -> Pursuit (OHKO). So even without walrein, this Weavile is quite worthy of the slot, and is even better as I clean up at the end.
2. Choice Scarf Adaptability PorygonZ -- A well balanced pokemon, with access to Blizzard / Thunderbolt. Switch in on gengar, destroy with Blizzard or Dark Pulse. Granted, Blizzard is still weaker than tri-attack, but Blizzard rapes everything especially from 252 Modest PorygonZ. Also it counters Trick-Alakazam while Walrein is doing his job. Protect to scout for the trick, switch to Porygon-Z and pwn.
My other clean-up pokemon. After stalling for 32-turns, I need speed to finish the sweep. A physical and special choice sweeper are just what I need.
3. Frosslass with brightpowder / NeverMeltIce -- If you aren't playing with Hax items, use NeverMeltIce. Brightpowder increases evasion by another 10%, making a ton of attacks miss with Snow Cloak + Brightpowder. Destiny Bond + Blizzard/Thunderbolt makes it a nice filler pokemon as well.
Essentially, two speeders and one support pokemon. Frosslass switches in on fighting pokemon, and with Brightpowder + Snow Cloak the accuracy of Stone Edge drops down to some 54% (at least on Shoddy. I don't know the precise mechanics in the game) So even if they out-predict the switch, it is only a coin-flip chance that they are going to hit you.
Notable pokemon this guy switches in on SpecsLucario and Heracross if Walrein didn't finish the job. You can't rely on the miss-rate of Stone Edge, but it will eventually save your ass. And the chance of that happening seems to beat out any alternative item combination.
Perhaps now you see why Metagross gives problems to my team >.>
EDIT: Oh yeah, and walls like Blissey and Cresselia are subseeded by Abomasnow. So really, you can cover all your bases with a hail-team.
Interesting, but in addition to Metagross you may also have problems with CB T-tar, as your team has no Rock resist and four weaks. An opponent could bring it in on Abomasnow or Porygon-Z and unleash Stone Edge without fear. You say you have Weavile to revenge kill DD versions which is fine, but CB versions have no set up to lose so can just switch in and out freely. Relying on a 46% miss rate with Froslass is also bad for obvious reasons, as you have already mentioned. T-tar could cause trouble even when it isn't carrying any moves to immobilize Walrein.
Your Walrein set will be able to work to its full potential, and I think it has a lot, if you can find a way to deal with all of its potential threats with your remaining Pokemon, or a team that benefits hugely from having its most debilitating weaknesses easily dealt with by Walrein. Unfortunately I see this team running into a dead end against one or two OU staples.
Love the idea and the thread BTW. Good job.
Hey dragontamer, I would just like to say nice idea here. I have first-hand experience facing this set - if you don't have a good counter, it will stall the shit out of you (as I found out on Shoddybattle).
But... it is unlikely that the opponent is willing to sacrifice T-Tar without scouting for Destiny Bond. CB versions will die as you spam Destiny Bond, frosslass is faster and thus will take him out. DD versions will die to weavile later. (late game weavile / porygon sweeps)
When you have frosslass, it all comes down to luck. Fortunately, it isn't my only contingency vs T-Tar. Overall, my team can work together to bring down the threat, even though there isn't any 1 pokemon that will counter T-Tar.
It isn't perfect... but at least I have a plan against T-Tar.
I call this for the next breeding week. :P
Spikes may be the better option over toxic spikes. As was mentioned there a lot of steel types and they just asorbed the toxic spikes wasting your turn(s) spent laying them down.
Only poison pokemon absorb toxic spikes.
Pokemon that tend to give me problems in that are are Roserade... and Venomoth >_>
But really, it has to be a non-levitating non-flying poison pokemon to absorb the Toxic Spikes. Most poison pokemon suck... and the only good ones seem to Levitate (Gengar, Weezing). Again, Roserade is perhaps the only decent toxic-absorber, along with Tentacruel (who can then rapid spin)
But really, only poison pokemon steal those toxic spikes.
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