The Trial of the King Killers [Anti-Metagame Defensive "Tier List"] Update: T11 Done!
 

Welcome to the Anti-Metagame "Tier List!"

This is a list of Pokemon that counter the Top 11 in OU arranged into an easily readable "tier list" for your team building convenience. It will soon be a Top 20 list but for the moment, it's just Top 11.

A Few Quick Notes Before Reading On:
Ferrothorn, Choice Band Dragonite, Choice Band Terrakion, & Choice Specs Politoed were NOT included in the making of the purely defensive list.
Ferrothorn’s lack of power & coverage made the list far too large; to give you an idea, Standard Ferrothorn can’t 2HKO about 60~70% of the useable Pokémon in the game. Adding him to the list changed so little that it wasn't worth the large amount of time it would take to add all those Pokemon to the list.
Choice Band Dragonite, Band Terrakion, & Specs Politoed were excluded all for the same reason: Due to having 4 Moves for coverage & immense power, there were only around 5 Pokémon for each that could take a hit from them. Because all the other Top 11 Pokémon only get one set each, giving them 2 sets would give Pokemon like Jellicent & Gligar unfair tiering numbers.
Gliscor was given a +2 Attack boost as with only Earthquake & Ice Fang, his counters were nearly as numerous as Ferrothorn’s. Gliscor can easily get to +2 behind a Sub before he must confront his foe so I felt the +2 was justified.

To-Do List:
Step 1 – Defense Calcs!
What I did was, I took mass damage calculations for the Scizor, Dragonite, Heatran, Rotom-W, Tyranitar, Politoed, Terrakion, Gliscor, Jirachi, & Landorus sets listed below and included every single On-Site set from OU to NU.
Then I took any Pokémon that had a set that cannot be 2HKOed by ANY of the selected Pokémon sets’ moves and made them into the alphabetized lists below.












*Sets with Air Balloon are calculated into these which is why Cobalion is anywhere near Landorus' list

Step 2 – Sorting!
After making 10 complete lists, I took Jirachi’s long list and added Pokémon from the other lists to make the main list.
If a Pokémon is already on the main list and they are listed on one of the other 9 lists, they get a star next to their name and an additional star for each and every instance of being repeated, with 9 Stars being the current maximum.

Step 3 – Tiering!
Using the stars given to every Pokémon, I sorted the Pokémon into tiers based on the number of stars they have and cropped out the Pokémon with no stars for convenience. (The list would be very long otherwise)
I present to you the purely Defensive Anti-Metagame "Tier List":

Step 4 – Offensive Calcs!
Simply tanking hits isn't enough. King Killers need to be able to dish-out hits strong enough to break the Pokemon they're walling. So with that in mind, I took the lists of Pokemon that wall each top 11 threat and went through one by one, figuring out which Pokemon can deal 50% or more per hit to the Pokemon they wall.

That allowed me to creat these lists of "true" counters for each of the Top 11 Pokemon. These Pokemon take less than 50% from any move the Offensive sets above carry, while being able to, at the very least, 2HKO the most common Defensive variants of the the same Pokemon:













Step 5 – The “Finished” List!
Taking the Purely Defensive Tier List from before, I gave each Pokemon on that list one extra star for each "True Counter" list they appear on, adding 11 stars to the maximum amount possible. After sorting the Pokemon back into tiers, I created and present to you the the True Anti-Top 11 Tier List:
Slowbro has come out as the top Pokemon to deal with the Top 11 Pokemon in OU with Dragonite, Gyarados, Hippowdon, Suicune, and, surprisingly enough, Lickilicky right behind him.

Keep in mind that a lot of these Pokemon such as Empoleon, Cobalion, or Heatran have Balloon sets which let them get past Pokemon like Landorus & Heatran that they normally wouldn't be able to.

Intimidate is also taken into account, so Pokemon like Granbull & Gyarados are higher than they would be without it.


I'm expanding the list to the Top 20 in OU next update. I'll base it on April OU Usage when that goes up next week.

Until then, break the mold and take down the kings!

*golf clap*

really nice job.

time to make a team with poliwrath and shelgon

If you use a Flame Orb on Milotic (inadvisable, obviously), would Rest+Sleep Talk even be necessary? The whole point of that set is to use Rest as both recovery and to activate Marvel Scale. If FO does the latter, I would much rather use Recover for the instant heal and lack of being a sitting duck otherwise.

Milotic's Dragon Tail is laughably weak, though, so it obviously is less effective against Sub users. Having something to help with this helps make the RestTalk set less of a liability, because Milotic can really shine if given the chance.

I know this may be asking too much, but do your calcs include SR damage or SR+1 layer of Spikes? SR+1 layer of Spikes is the amount used for the "Counter that Pokemon-OU" thread.

This is really interesting; great job, and thank you!

Flame Orb is to get the Defense-boost to switch-in on an attack and Phaze the next turn without having to be asleep and actually rely on Sleep Talk's 33% chance to pick Dragon Tail. Recover works too, RestTalk is more for keeping Milo healthy in a pinch. That's my take on it anyway. I'm not one to talk about it in detail, I was just pointing out that Marvel Scale Milotic is...a thing apparently. I think it's bad either way, but I'm not gonna argue with the calcs. That thing can take some hits.

No, I'm just keeping it simple. Besides, isn't EVERYONE using Forretress or Starmie now? I seriously hate seeing those things... But no, this list has already taken hours to make and it's not even finished. I'd rather not go through the hassle of adding hazards to the equation.

in defense of katakiri, the top walls either resist or are neutral to hazards anyways....

(you dont see articuno anywhere, do you? ;) )

Poliwrath might just be the solution to all my problems!! Now I just need a seventh party slot or something xD.

Great to see some heavily underlooked walls getting some attention.

Just out of interest, I pulled out the Pokémon that are listed for both Scizor and Rotom-W:


Pretty interesting list, but some of these Pokémon definitely couldn't be considered as counters due to being incapable of hitting back. I've picked out a few that I feel could actually do something useful. ;)

http://www.smogon.com/download/sprites/bw/621.png
Amoonguss @ Leftovers
Ability: Effect Spore (wish they'd hurry up and release Regenerator...)
Nature: Calm (+SpD, -Atk)
EVs: 252 HP / 40 Def / 216 SpD
- Spore
- Stun Spore
- Giga Drain
- Hidden Power [Fire]

Amoonguss has real potential, in my opinion, thanks to Spore and STAB Giga Drain, which 2HKOs all standard Rotom-W (bulky attacker only after Stealth Rock) while scarfed Rotom-W can only 4HKO after Stealth Rock with HP Fire even before you consider the recovery from Giga Drain.

Choice Band Scizor is a little more problematic, especially if Sleep Clause is active, since U-Turn is a guaranteed 2HKO and Bullet Punch is a guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock. The standard OU Amoonguss set carries HP Ice, but even HP Fire can only manage a 2HKO (61.8% - 73.5%). Against Scizor, Amoonguss' best shot is either waiting until hazards wear it down enough to take it out with a single HP Fire, or catching it on the switch with status.

http://www.smogon.com/download/sprites/bw/373.png
Salamence @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
Nature: Bold (+Def, -Atk) / Relaxed (+Def, -Spe)
EVs: 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 Spe
- Wish
- Protect / Roost
- Dragon Tail
- Flamethrower

I have to admit Salamence surprised me by showing up, but it's actually pretty damn good at the job. Against more standard Mence like DD or Mix, Rotom's best shot is Volt Switch (3HKO, 2HKO after Stealth Rock) while it fares even worse against the defensive set (4HKO, 3HKO after rocks).

Scizor is a pain against the offensive sets, grabbing a 2HKO after rocks with Bullet Punch even after Intimidate. The defensive version pulls through, however; after Intimidate, Bullet Punch scores a mere 4HKO with rocks while Salamence gets a guaranteed OHKO with Flamethrower. Mence can then Wish/Roost off the damage. Even if the Scizor turns out to be a bulky Swords Dance variety, a +1 Bullet Punch is only a 3HKO after rocks while Flamethrower has a 56.25% chance of a OHKO with rocks. With sun support or the tiniest amount of extra residual damage, Scizor wouldn't have a hope in hell.

It should be noted that the natures mostly just depend on what you care more about - outspeeding more threats such as Adamant Breloom or dealing more damage with Dragon Tail. You can optionally run Bold 252 HP / 196 Def / 64 Spe, which lets Mence outspeed max-Speed Jolly Scizor outside of Bullet Punch at the cost of a small amount of bulk (still a 4HKO after rocks, mind you).

http://www.smogon.com/download/sprites/bw/145.png
Zapdos @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
Nature: Calm (+SpD, -Atk)
EVs: 248 HP / 236 SpD / 24 Spe
- Discharge / Thunderbolt
- Roost
- Heat Wave
- Hidden Power [Grass] / Hidden Power [Flying] / Roar

The last Pokémon that caught my eye was Zapdos, although the standard OU sets won't do the job. In neutral weather, scarfed Rotom-W's Hydro Pump has a decent chance of 2HKOing SubRoost Zapdos, the most specially bulky standard OU set, even without rocks. The story is a little more pleasant with the UU specially defensive set, with Hydro Pump giving an extremely small chance of a 2HKO after rocks - Zapdos will generally be able to stall out Rotom's four Hydro Pump uses (Pressure) with Roost. Zapdos is then very likely to 2HKO using Thunderbolt, and can guarantee it with rocks. If Discharge is being used over Thunderbolt, HP Grass can achieve the same job.

Rotom isn't really where Zapdos shines, though; Scizor really struggles against it. Even 4/0 neutral Zapdos is only 2HKOed after rocks by Pursuit, Scizor's strongest attack against it (!). Two Superpowers in a row can only 2HKO after rocks with max damage rolls both times. Zapdos is then capable of killing Scizor twice over with Heat Wave. Against the specially defensive set mentioned above, Zapdos is only 3HKO'd after rocks by Pursuit, which is easily Roosted away. Choice Band Scizor is then OHKOed by Heat Wave, while bulky Swords Dance is OHKOed more than 80% of the time, guaranteed after rocks.


Bearing in mind that a VoltTurn team by its very nature will be taking plenty of residual damage from hazards, I'd say these make reasonably solid counters to the most common VoltTurn core out there. There are probably others in the list that perform very well too. What do you guys think?

Having being the poster of that topic (before it got locked because no one followed to rules) I can say it was actually SR OR one layer of spikes, not both. More than 1 layer of hazards isn't normal, especially early game when most "counters" are actually relevant (late game they get worn down to the point where they're no longer true counters in most cases).

Anyway, this is certainly pretty interesting. What I do have to say is the biggest problem most of those "top tier" Pokemon have is that they can't do anything BACK. Simply surviving isn't any good unless you actually do something. Still, it certainly is interesting a gives a lot of rare Pokemon a chance to shine now that some light has been drawn to them. I'm sure they could all fit niches on the appropriate team.

Hence my analysis of possible counters to the case of Scizor + Rotom-W, which is probably one of the most common combinations out of the top ten. The list is interesting as it is, but it'll need expanding in order to come up with genuine counters, especially counters to entire cores. Marvel Scale Milotic may be able to avoid a 2HKO against all of the top threats, but what can it do against Pokémon like Rotom-W or Politoed besides phaze with Dragon Tail after taking a hit and burn damage?

In the ''volturn counter Section'' I would like to add Rocky Helmet Skarmory
While he's pratically killed by Rotom-w Skarmory is perfect against Landorus and Scizor, wearing them down and blocking the volturn chain, this is very vital sometimes when you aren't capable to set up the SR or your opponent has a problematic spinner like say Tentacruel or Starmie.
Anyway, great thread, might return with other things

i am surprised to see that tropius AND masquerain survives a 2hko from a scizor
This is really helpful info. thanks
I am definitely gonna use that awesome harvest subseed set now

I actually use to do this all the time, but I would place in raw stats for ditermining rather than general top 20 pokemon.

Wobbu Wobbu!

Wobbuffet is mentioned in most lists, he deserves more respect. Sure this metagame is more offensive, everyone is stronger, but Wobbuffet hasn't gotten any worse this gen. Hell if he can function in Gen 4 Uber he can function in Gen 5 OU.

He's not a fan of Volt-Turn though :D

Excellent thread! I'm really looking forward to the offensive calcs.

Sorry about the wait on the offensive calcs. School comes before Pokemon. I'll try to get it out in the next couple days.

Alrighty! Everything has been updated and the true Top 11 counter lists have been made.

Slowbro was able to back-up his Defensive Bulk with his Base 100 Special Attack and great coverage to come out on top.

Lickilicky made a very surprising jump from B-Tier of the Defensive List to S-Tier of the final list. His sheer natural bulk & lack of weaknesses makes him very hard to 2HKO without Fighting-type moves while his amazing coverage options allow him to whittle away at most threats and take 50% off them with a SE coverage move like Power Whip, Ice Beam, Fire Blast, or Earthquake.

Suicune still stands tall from the previous list as an immovable object with it's Crocune or Defensive sets while having the bulk and coverage options on any other sets to come out on top.

Poliwrath keeps a firm grip on it's A-Tier ranking showing just how well he can hang with and take down the big boys despite his RU tiering. Great bulk, STAB Fighting moves with Ice Punch or even Waterfall makes Poliwrath a top threat to the top threats of OU.

One last thing that took me by surprise was Granbull tying with Balloon Heatran in tiering. Intimidate is definitely not to be underestimated as it gives Granbull great artificial bulk for switching-in without losing even 40% of it's HP. With Close Combat & the Elemental Punches for coverage with great support moves, Granbull, very surprisingly, can hold it's own in OU.

Interesting... may well have to test out Poliwrath on a team some time. I don't think I've ever even seen one on the ladder before...

This is fanfuckingtastic Katakiri. Very cool, good job.

Lickilicky could do with an OU analysis now.

What Lickilicky set brought him to such a high tier? I've been using him as a special wall/phazer, with Curse/Dragon Tail/Rest/Sleep Talk, but maybe I'm using it wrong?

Your omissions influence things a lot.

Executive decisions like this is how you end up listing SlowBro as a dragonite counter, when the reality out there is that it usually isn't.

CB outrage does 56.3% - 66.5% to slowbro, and dragonite also outspeeds it.
Meanwhile if multiscale is up, slowbro can't OHKO. So slowbro loses head to head.

You also have stuff like "mence as a scizor counter." I run mence, and no way am I going to switch him into bullet punch. Especially if rocks is up.

Great thread btw. It's interesting to learn about pokemon like Shelgon and Alomomola.

CB Bullet Punch is a 4HKO with rocks against defensive Salamence after Intimidate. The same Salamence OHKOs with Flamethrower. That's the set that counters Scizor, not the offensive sets which are indeed 2HKOed after rocks and Intimidate.

If nothing else, I run that defensive Mence, and it performs admirably against Scizor.