Credit goes to Fireburn for the original analysis and Poppy for the previous WIP update. Thanks!
STATUS REPORT:
Revamping my previous work on Wallceus's AC.
OVERALL NOTES:
NOTES WITH PREVIOUS STATUS REPORTS
Throughout this entire analysis:
Some concision may be done when necessary.
Significant expansion on teammates
All "it, its, etc." will be changed to the appropriate "He, His, etc." format when applicable.
Does QC want a Choice Band set as a set or OO?To be added as a set...
Initial notes were made by Poppy. Check his WIP thread. He did some fantastic work! So I am crediting once again...
Remember, this thread is a continuation of his update.
"Checks and Counters" Notes for the sets are listed below the Checks and Counters Section. Just so it is in one place for note organization...
Previous Status Reports were as follows (in order of first appearance):
Update in progress based on shrang, and Theorymon notes!
Update in progress based on Poppy, shrang, and Theorymon notes!
New threats mentioned!
Finished Checks and Counters!
Currently working on CB set - WIP! I'll make a post later once finished!
Almost done, just have to finish teammates section for CB set. I'll post when I'm completed. Until then... QC?
Finished updating! For QC, notable sections to particularly check are the "Checks and Counters" and "Choice Band."
Arceus-Fighting, Forretress, Landorus-T, Sableye, Bronzong, and Hippowdon have been tested. Test results will be posted soon.
Right now, I'm testing the validity of Physically Defensive Ho-Oh and CB Metagross.
Please check the Checks / Counters section! Still determining Bronzong/Arceus-Fighting placement. Which works better in your opinion for position 6, Bronzong or Arceus-Fighting?
Still determining placement of Groudon V.S. Hippowdon. Thoughts?
Analysis is now fully QC checked! Writing will commence shortly.
If possible, please check Wallceus's Checks / Counters section. Are there any more possible checks / counters that might warrant a mention? Thanks.
Working in reverse order (Unreleased to "Overview"). Currently on revamping. Will post everything once finished.
UPDATE ANALYSIS NOTES:
...
[Overview]
<p>After the pre-battle tintinnabulation is completed, please stare in pure, unadulterated horror and ominous presentiment at what is unequivocally the best and most versatile Pokemon in the game. Dare not incur Arceus's divine wrath, or else the consequences shall be severe and merciless, and life shall become but an evanescent wisp.</p>
NOTES
Needs to be updated! More competitive information is necessary while retaining flavor (which may be subject to change...). See Project: Arceus Overview Renovation for more details.
<p>Thanks to Arceus's supreme bulk and the priority of ExtremeSpeed, this set is extremely difficult to revenge kill. Combine it with a meaty base 120 Attack stat, Swords Dance, and STAB on said ExtremeSpeed, and you get one of the most frightening late game sweepers in the entire game, capable of decimating offensive teams and cleaning up weakened defensive teams with ease.</p>
<p>Swords Dance will boost the power of Arceus's STAB ExtremeSpeed to horrifyingly powerful levels, devastating anything in Arceus's way that isn't resembling a physical tank. With just a Silk Scarf and Swords Dance boost, it is more than strong enough to OHKO even the bulkiest of Uber titans, such as Mewtwo, Kyogre, Reshiram, Palkia, Zekrom, and Ho-Oh. Shadow Claw is necessary to allow Arceus to repel Ghost-type Pokemon such as Giratina-O, who can come in on ExtremeSpeed without any hassle. However, Shadow Force provides a good deal more power, so much so that Lugia and Giratina risk being OHKOed by Shadow Force after taking Stealth Rock damage provided Arceus has used Swords Dance once, is Adamant, and is holding Life Orb. Shadow Force also alleviates any fears about Wobbuffet. Unfortunately, Shadow Force's charge turn makes it easy for the opponent to play around.</p>
<p>Earthquake enables Arceus to break down Rock- and Steel-type Pokemon that could otherwise take ExtremeSpeed, such as Dialga and Tyranitar. Brick Break isn't nearly as strong against Dialga or Heatran, but it is significantly more effective against Ferrothorn, who can otherwise annoy Arceus with Leech Seed. Recover keeps Arceus around longer to get in more boosts, but it limits coverage quite a bit.</p>
[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
<p>The given EVs and nature give Arceus maximum power while granting enough Speed to outpace Rayquaza and all Pokemon that sit at the base 90 threshold. However, if Rayquaza is not an issue, one can choose to invest all of the Speed EVs into HP for additional bulk, allowing Arceus to take hits more effectively while setting up. Overheat is an additional option to take down Skarmory, but its effectiveness is nullified in the rain. A Jolly nature with maximum investment in Speed can also be used to get the jump on Terrakion and slower variants of Ghost Arceus and Steel Arceus, but it affords Arceus much less bulk and power. Life Orb is the preferred item for the great power boost it affords Arceus, but Silk Scarf grants a nice buff to ExtremeSpeed while preserving Arceus's bulk.</p>
<p>Despite the sheer threat presence this set has, it can still be stopped by most dedicated physical walls--other Arceus, Lugia, Skarmory, and Giratina. Common Choice Scarf carriers that resist ExtremeSpeed, such as Terrakion, Dialga, and Heatran, can take a hit from Arceus and severely damage or fell it with Close Combat, Draco Meteor, or Fire Blast respectively. Wobbuffet can easily trap and dispatch Choice Scarf users thanks to its ability, Shadow Tag. It can also utilize Encore to buy Arceus a much-needed turn to use Swords Dance safely. Pairing Tickle Wobbuffet with a Pursuit user such as Scizor also makes for a quick way to eliminate Lugia. Powerful special attackers such as Kyogre and Heatran can deal with most physically defensive Arceus. Giratina, Lugia, and Skarmory are also easily fried by Zekrom and Reshiram's STAB Electric- and Fire-type attacks, respectively. The latter, however, will need sunlight support to reliably take on Lugia.</p>
NOTES
Primary EV Spread will be changed to 240 HP / 252 Atk / 16 Spe while using Adamant.
Short paragraph on other EV spreads will be added for AC - AKA discussion on Speed benchmarks
EX: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe Jolly in combination with Life Orb
Will mention how this spread Speed ties at worst with opposing Arceus formes who might try and cripple with Will-O-Wisp.
Emphasis on how this spread is a perfectly viable alternative as opposed to a "lesser" alternative.
Item Slash Order will be Silk Scarf / Life Orb / Lum Berry
Silk Scarf boosts the power of ExtremeSpeed without compromising bulk.
Life Orb is the second slash due to its 10% damage recoil
Will be stressed for Jolly variants
Recoil damage hurts bulk
Still a very important item as it grants much more power for coverage moves as well as ExtremeSpeed - enough for some notable OHKOs.
Best item against His "general" counters, in particular Lugia.
EX: Arceus without Life Orb is unable to OHKO Terrakion with an unboosted Earthquake, so it will be mentioned if length permits.
While Terrakion can be picked off with ExtremeSpeed, Terrakion can switch out the next turn to do whatever.
Arceus at +2 without Adamant Life Orb is unable to OHKO Kyurem-B with ExtremeSpeed without SR. Kyurem-W can be OHKOed with Adamant and no Life Orb (Silk Scarf instead), but it is a 43.75% chance. Even with Life Orb and Adamant, it's still a chance (Though it is quite good with Adamant... 87.5% for Kyurem-W and 37.5% for Kyurem-B). This is assuming no bulk investment for the Kyurem formes.
Arceus with Lum Berry gets some status protection, but the power drop is very noticeable
EX: Will sometimes fail to OHKO Palkia or Mewtwo after SR with +2 ExtremeSpeed. Will never OHKO Zekrom after SR. Kyurem-B has a 56.25% chance of being OHKOed after SR with no bulk investment. Kyurem-W is always OHKOed after SR with no bulk investment.
Leftovers will be placed in AC; will mention how it works well with a bulky spread and with Recover.
Thunder will be AC mentioned, as it is (only) useful against Skarmory in rain. Hurts coverage significantly though.
Safeguard and Substitute will be AC mentioned; it can be useful against status and revenge killers (For Substitute). Hurt coverage significantly though.
Grass Knot will be AC mentioned; it 2HKOes Groudon and Hippowdon. OHKOes Unaware Quagsire too. Hurts coverage significantly though.
Fire Blast will be AC mentioned; it has increased utility against Ferrothorn and Forretress. Recommended over Overheat for any item besides Life Orb.
Dragon Claw / Outrage will be AC mentioned. Much better against Giratina-O and Giratina, but far worse against Ghost Arceus and Lugia (NOTE: Neutral Silk Scarf ExtremeSpeed is actually more powerful than a super effective Shadow Claw, so Silk Scarf is probably the preferred item for Dragon Claw). Bronzong is negligible as you still lose to it with Silk Scarf Shadow Claw. NOTE: Outrage is arguably better against Giratina than Shadow Force, but has a nasty locking effect - Outrage is horrible.
Shadow Force to be deslashed and put into AC? Or should it stay slashed? Right now, it's slashed. Shadow Force DOES have obscene power though... It's still used a fair bit according to Moveset Analysis. It remains a slash.
Leaning towards keeping it as a slash. However, a larger emphasis will be placed on its advantages/disadvantages over Shadow Claw (Which is still the main slash). SUPERIMP NOTE: Additional notes subject to length of analysis.
Spikes/Toxic Spikes are great when paired with Shadow Force. Highly recommended. Helps to significantly increase the chance of a possible OHKO on stuff like Giratina. - AC
Better against Giratina/Arceus-Ghost/Giratina-O, worse against Lugia (Assuming no Power Herb + SR, but that's AC). - SC
Normal-type Pokemon are annoying as they are immune. This includes stuff like other Arceus-Normal and Blissey/Chansey. Helps to deal with them before your sweep. - SC
Has a charge turn. Makes it easy to play around if not used properly (This is why the main slash is Shadow Claw). - SC
Allows Him to "evade" Will-O-Wisp, Roar, etc. during the charge turn. Shadow Claw doesn't have this option, so it's vulnerable to these annoyances. In case you're wondering, that sucks. - SC
Shadow Force is weak to Substitute users. Not too much of a problem though as Giratina/Arceus-Ghost don't really carry Substitute. Giratina-O/Lugia may though. - AC
Shadow Force breaks through Protect/Detect. Shadow Claw doesn't. Minor point though - AC
Obscene power with Life Orb and Adamant. Still works without, but you will need a bit more prior damage on stuff beforehand if applicable - AC
Completely destroys Arceus-Ghost. Max bulk? No problem. Allows Jolly Life Orb variants to win more times on average against this threat. - SC for Arceus-Ghost part, possible elaboration in AC
Two Shadow Claws outdamage one Shadow Force. This however assumes Arceus is not "crippled" before the 2nd one whether Will-O-Wisp or Reflect. Shadow Force can only be "crippled" by Reflect - AC
Shadow Claw is arguably a "safer" move to spam. Significantly more PP and doesn't leave you as vulnerable to Normal-type Pokemon switch-ins. Shadow Force has little PP. - SC
Mention of Power Herb + Shadow Force combo - AC
All previous mentions in the original analysis - SC
<p>In addition to being a nigh unstoppable sweeper, Arceus can also function as a nearly unbreakable wall. Arceus's excellent HP, Defense, and Special Defense stats already lend it to taking hits well, and Recover as well as a litany of support and coverage moves only sweeten the deal. Although its Normal typing isn't the best pick for a defensive Pokemon, a lone weakness and the ability to hold Leftovers are a couple of huge advantages Normal Arceus can boast over its other formes.</p>
<p>Normal Arceus generally lends itself more to taking physical hits, and with good reason. In addition to a certain fat pink blob being far better of a dedicated special wall, Arceus learns a couple of useful moves to disable physical attackers, namely Will-O-Wisp and Roar. The former allows Arceus to disable nearly every physical sweeper in Ubers—Groudon, Rayquaza, other Arceus, Garchomp, and Zekrom, to name a few—for the rest of the match with a crippling burn. Will-O-Wisp also saps the afflicted opponent's HP, allowing Arceus to simply keep healing itself with Recover until the burned opponent faints. However, Will-O-Wisp's accuracy is shaky and it does nothing to Fire-type Pokemon such as Ho-Oh. Reflect, although it only lasts five turns, does not miss and also benefits the whole team. Return provides a solid STAB attack that can cause a nice chunk of damage to most Uber Pokemon, who generally have lower Defense.</p>
<p>Arceus can run quite a few options in the last slot. Roar is generally the most useful choice, as allows Arceus to phaze away the opponent's physical attackers after they have been neutralized by Will-O-Wisp or Reflect, while spreading entry hazard damage around the opponent's team. Ice Beam gives Arceus a way to kill off the likes of Groudon, Zekrom, Rayquaza, and Garchomp more quickly, and is a useful move in general as a lot of Pokemon in the Uber metagame are weak to Ice-type attacks. Lastly, Perish Song provides a way to force switches while stopping last-Pokemon stat boosters such as Calm Mind Kyogre and Bulk Up Dialga from completely laying waste to your team.</p>
[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
<p>The given EVs allow Arceus to take physical hits as well as it possibly can. An alternate EV spread of 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe with a Jolly nature allows Arceus to capitalize on its superb base 120 Speed stat. By outspeeding most other physical attackers, such as Terrakion and Garchomp, Arceus can cripple them with Will-O-Wisp or set up Reflect before they can land an attack. However, this change diminishes Arceus's ability to actually switch in on physical hits. If Ice Beam is being used, it is recommended to switch Return to Judgment and run an Bold (or Timid) nature so as to not gimp its power.</p>
<p>Arceus's offensive movepool is enormous and it can easily run another attack to gain coverage on whatever you need to hit. Flamethrower stops Ferrothorn and Forretress from using Arceus as setup fodder. Earthquake is also an unexpected move on a defensive Arceus. Its main use is to shatter Heatran into a million tiny pieces, who otherwise walls this set completely. It also knocks around Excadrill and Dialga for good damage. Although it doesn't fit into the offensive move category, Refresh can help keep Arceus free of Toxic, which would ruin its walling capabilities.</p>
<p>Although this set is quite difficult to take down, it can't wall everything. Fighting-types equipped with Guts, such as Heracross, can actually have their Attack boosted by Will-O-Wisp and easily OHKO Arceus with a powered-up Close Combat. Fighting Arceus doesn't care about Will-O-Wisp or Reflect, and can set up on Normal Arceus with Calm Mind before striking it down with a mighty STAB Judgment. Fire-types such as Ho-Oh, Reshiram, and Heatran don't care about most of this set's attacks, and can overpower Arceus with their sun-fueled incendiary strikes. Arceus also struggles to fight off extremely strong special attackers such as Kyogre. Giratina packs an immunity to Arceus's lone weakness to Fighting-type attacks and has the bulk to handle hits from most Fighting-type Pokemon, as well as Ho-Oh. Palkia can easily switch in on Kyogre courtesy of its quadruple resistance to Water-type attacks, and fry the bloated fish with Thunder. Palkia can also come in on Reshiram's Blue Flare fairly well and rip it in half with Spacial Rend. Kyogre has no fear of Heatran and can come in on it all day, and its high Special Defense lets it function as a shaky answer to Reshiram. Finally, Forretress is an excellent partner thanks to Rapid Spin and immunity to Toxic. Arceus hates being worn down by entry hazards and absolutely loathes being poisoned, so pairing Forretress with this Arceus would be a wise choice.</p>
<p>If Arceus is running Will-O-Wisp, any user of Calm Mind, such as Kyogre, Latios, Latias, Mewtwo, or Giratina, is an excellent partner. With the opponent's powerful physical attackers incapable of breaking them, these users of Calm Mind can easily set up without fear as the Special Defense boosts cushion the damage dealt from special attacks, making them extremely difficult to halt.</p>
NOTES
Primary EV Spread will be changed to 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 Spe to outspeed max Speed neutral base 90s
ExtremeSpeed will be AC mentioned
Judgment + Ice Beam with Bold nature also goes in as an AC mention
Choice Band ExtremeSpeed is great at revenge killing stuff like Rayquaza, Darkrai, Shaymin-S and Mewtwo. - trickroom note
Gives much more revenge killing power. 2HKOs an incredible amount of stuff without set up.
Doesn't get too many notable OHKOs though.
Earthquake deals with Rock- and Steel-type Pokemon that could take ExtremeSpeed
Shadow Claw deals with Ghost-type Pokemon who could also switch into ExtremeSpeed like Giratina-O, Giratina, etc. Also Lugia.
Swords Dance allows Him to possibly sweep after Choice Band is tricked away
Absolutely, definitely, must have Trick!
Lots of Arceus switch-ins like Giratina, Lugia, and Skarmory REALLY hate getting tricked a Choice Band - Theorymon note
Makes a decent lure because of this. Expect Extreme Killer, get Choice Band!
Those immune to Trick will lock you in, so be careful... (Notable ones include Arceus formes and Giratina-O)
If you mispredict with Trick, that's not very good. It ruins the surprise.
[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
Given EVs and nature give as much power while enough speed to outspeed any neutral base 90 Speed Pokemon. Rest in HP for bulk. (It's the same EV spread as the Extreme Killer update)
Possible other spreads to be detailed here. Specifically, max Attack, Speed for a certain Speed tier, and then rest in HP.
Overheat is an option to take down Skarmory without Trick. Rather specific, prefers sun, and hates rain.
Stone Edge could be used to OHKO Ho-Oh and hurt Lugia a lot. However, really specific....
Shadow Force is not recommended. It's too predictable and the power is insufficient (especially since this is Choice Band).
Dragon Claw can be used instead of Shadow Claw. Hits Giratina-O / Giratina far harder, but fails against Arceus-Ghost and Bronzong.
Return can be used instead of ExtremeSpeed for better PP and damage. For example, He can now 2HKO Great Wall Lugia after SR (98.44% is pretty good). However, He now loses out on priority and a possible sweep may be hindered.
One could use Shadow Claw and Earthquake together for coverage at the loss of possible set up/sweep.
If you run only Shadow Claw, won't get past Steel-type Pokemon
If you run only Earthquake, won't get past Giratina-O
Calculations can go here if necessary if length permits. Hopefully not to ensure consistency. Here are some example stuff:
Regarding OHKOs
Only Deoxys-A is guaranteed without SR and Focus Sash.
Possibly Blaziken, Tornadus, Thundurus, Thundurus-T, Deoxys-S (Suicide lead), etc. without SR and Focus Sash
With SR, aforementioned are guaranteed along with Shaymin-S, Ho-Oh, and Tornadus-T (No/little HP/Def investment).
With SR, possibly Darkrai, Venusaur (No/little HP investment), Tentacruel (Very small), Moxie Salamence, Latios, etc.
Notably, with SR and Spikes - Darkrai
Team members who appreciate Lugia, Giratina, and Skarmory being crippled will love Choice Band Arceus. Helps their sweep! Some examples are:
Blaziken, Rayquaza, Groudon, Garchomp, Salamence, Mewtwo, ... WAY TOO MANY! Of course, there are many other factors...
Team members that work well with Arceus are as follows:
Wobbuffet - For dealing with Choice Scarfers/Choiced Fighting-type attacks
Latias - Deals with Arceus-Fighting, loads of other stuff.
Giratina/Giratina-O - Switches into Fighting-type attacks, deals with Terrakion, Scizor, Landorus-T, etc.
To be honest though, use this set as a lure to get rid of Lugia, Giratina, etc. for others!
NOTE: Checks and Counters are listed in Checks and Counters Section just to place them in one location for notes...
[Other Options]
<p>Arceus's excellent bulk and Speed stat lend it to abusing Calm Mind well. Although its coverage is much worse than the other Arceus formes, Normal Arceus is capable of holding Leftovers, which bolsters its survivability quite a bit. Normal Arceus can also take advantage of Choice Band to give it a sizable Attack boost, making it a good revenge killer with ExtremeSpeed. However, Arceus doesn't get any notable KOs by using Choice Band, and Swords Dance makes it much more of an offensive threat, so the Extreme Killer set is usually better. Light Screen has some use on the Wallceus set to boost Arceus's Special Defense. Thunder can be used on the Extreme Killer set to 2HKO Skarmory in the rain. The potential paralysis can hamper Lugia as well. Arceus can attempt to run a mixed set with Work Up, but the other Arceus formes generally do that more effectively as they have STAB moves with better coverage. Finally, Safeguard can be used on the Extreme Killer set to stop physical walls from using Will-O-Wisp on Normal Arceus, a common way to stop it, but it limits type coverage.</p>
NOTES
Mention of Specs set
Mention of "other" sets (Whirlpool + Perish Song, Calm Mind, etc.). In other words, sets that "spark" imagination
Choice Band set mention to be removed
Leftovers for Extreme Killer moved to Extreme Killer AC
Light Screen for Wallceus moved to Wallceus AC
Thunder for Extreme Killer moved to Extreme Killer AC
Safeguard for Extreme Killer moved to Extreme Killer AC
[Checks and Counters]
<p>The Extreme Killer set is best handled by another bulky Arceus with Will-O-Wisp. A burned Arceus poses no threat, and the defensive Arceus can simply Roar away the boosts the Extreme Killer has gotten. Fighting Arceus is particularly good at this as it can also smack Normal Arceus with a powerful, super effective STAB Judgment. Lugia can also set up Reflect and stall out Arceus's ExtremeSpeed with help from Pressure. Toxic and Whirlwind will stop Arceus from trying to set up further. If Arceus has Shadow Force, Lugia can simply set up Reflect before it gets hit to lessen the damage taken. Giratina can survive anything except a boosted Shadow Force from Normal Arceus, and cripple it with Will-O-Wisp. If it lacks Overheat, Skarmory can handle anything Arceus throws at it and set up Spikes in its face before blowing it away with Whirlwind. Defensive Groudon can also handle a hit or two and repel Normal Arceus's assault with Dragon Tail. Choice Scarf Terrakion and Dialga can also survive a boosted ExtremeSpeed and do massive damage to Arceus with Close Combat or Draco Meteor.</p>
NOTES- Poppy and subsequent QC made the initial list
Best Counter
Unaware QuagsireNOTE: Will only get a tiny honorable mention if length permits since nobody uses it. VERY SPECIFIC.
"General" Counters (Which are viable in Ubers)
Skarmory - Even the most Physically Defensive variant loses to Adamant / Jolly Life Orb Brick Break Extreme Killer when He is the last Pokemon no matter what even if it has Toxic (Extreme Killer sets up to +6 and then attacks). Extreme Killer may go down with Skarmory, but it's quite rare. If Extreme Killer does survive, He is severely crippled due to Toxic (Left at ~17% assuming Arceus was at full health initially), but gets one more +6 attack after Skarmory's demise. Skamory also loses outright to sun-boosted Overheat / Fire Blast. Defeats (AKA switches into and wins against) Standard Extreme Killer (Silk Scarf) if He's last Pokemon (even if all entry hazards are down). A 252 HP / 184 Def / 72 SpD spread is preferred (Or you actually lose against non-Life Orb Brick Break)
Wallceus - Has a chance of losing to (faster) Adamant Life Orb Brick Break despite Will-O-Wisp if He is the last Pokemon. Has a chance of losing to (faster) Jolly Life Orb Brick Break + Stealth Rock despite Will-O-Wisp if He is the last Pokemon. Loses to Lum Berry Brick Break Extreme Killer if He is the last Pokemon. Reliance on Will-O-Wisp can be inconvenient, while Reflect can be canceled by Brick Break. Defeats Standard Extreme Killer if He's last Pokemon (even if there's SR and 3 layers of Spikes) - An attacking move is preferred. Also defeats if there is 1 layer of Toxic Spikes. However, loses to Standard Extreme Killer if He's last Pokemon if there's anything greater than 2 layers of Toxic Spikes - will still cripple with Will-O-Wisp. Wallceus can also lose to Standard Extreme Killer if He's last Pokemon and there's 1 layer of Toxic Spikes and SR (Will lose to anything greater than this) - will still cripple with Will-O-Wisp.
Giratina - Can lose outright to Adamant Life Orb Shadow Force. Loses to Lum Berry Shadow Claw Extreme Killer if He is the last Pokemon as Will-O-Wisp is insufficient. Has a chance of losing to Adamant Life Orb Dragon Claw after Stealth Rock despite Will-O-Wisp if He is the last Pokemon. Also loses to Recover variants if He is the last Pokemon. Reliance on Will-O-Wisp and Rest can be inconvenient. Can Lose/Tie/Defeat Life Orb Extreme Killer variants if He's last Pokemon (even if there's SR and 3 layers of Spikes) - depends on whether Sleep Talk chooses Dragon Tail / Outrage consistently. Ties/Defeats Standard Extreme Killer if He's last Pokemon (even if there's SR and 3 layers of Spikes) - depends on whether Sleep Talk chooses Dragon Tail / Outrage consistently. Also Ties/Defeats if there is 1 or 2 layers of Toxic Spikes. However, loses to Standard Extreme Killer if He's last Pokemon if there's anything equal/greater than 1 layer of Toxic Spikes, a layer of Spikes, and SR (Though Giratina can possibly tie/defeat Standard Extreme Killer even if there are 2 layers of Toxic Spikes, a layer of Spikes, and SR) - will still cripple with Will-O-Wisp. Great Wall Giratina is preferred.
Lugia - Loses to Adamant Life Orb Shadow Claw + Stealth Rock if He is the last Pokemon (Reflect is not sufficient) - Can still set up Reflect / Toxic. Can lose to Jolly Life Orb Shadow Claw + Stealth Rock if He is the last Pokemon - Can still set up Reflect / Toxic. Loses to Lum Berry Shadow Claw Extreme Killer + Stealth Rock if He is the last Pokemon - cripples with Toxic though, may possibly have Reflect up. Lugia also loses to Shadow Force + Power Herb + Stealth Rock. Defeats Standard Extreme Killer if He's last Pokemon (even if all entry hazards are down). Multiscale Great Wall Lugia (With Reflect + Toxic) is preferred.
Checks in Order of Overall Effectiveness
Terrakion
NEW: Sableye
Arceus-Ghost
Groudon
NEW:Hippowdon
Arceus-Rock and Arceus-Steel
Arceus-Fighting - SUPERIMP NOTE: Arceus-Fighting mentioned as a whole instead. Promoted from Poppy's 8. (In the context of this list, 9.)
NEW: Bronzong (Physically Defensive / Trickroom / Choice Band) - SUPERIMP NOTE: Position is still being determined. Either 6 or 7.
Toxic + Pain Split Physically Defensive Forretress - SUPERIMP NOTE: Demoted from Poppy's 6. Did some testing and it's an overall poor choice. It only works with significant Defense/HP investment (No Spikes + Stealth Rock either). Even with max Physical Defense and HP, you still have a possibility of being 2HKOed from Adamant Life Orb +2 Earthquake without any hazards. Lum Berry variants are obviously problematic. In other words, Forretress doesn't really check Earthquake Life Orb / Lum Berry variants very well.
P.S. This variant is also a bit rare. Only 15% of all Forretress actually ran this EV spread last month (NOTE: JULY). And how many of them actually run Toxic + Pain Split? Even fewer (Pain Split itself was only on 5.6% of all Forretress). What more, Extreme Killer has to be at a respectable health for Pain Split to work properly! Therefore, demoted.
Physically Defensive Ferrothorn
- Overheat is mentioned as being useful against Skarmory, but not (as useful) against Forretress and Ferrothorn - SUPERIMP NOTE: General mention of Intimidate's utility against Extreme Killer - SUPERIMP NOTE: General mention of Choice Scarf users resistant/immune to ExtremeSpeed with Destiny Bond/Trick
Here are the (more) "Controversial" Checks (Currently deciding whether or not to mention)
Choice Band Landorus-T REJECTED- SUPERIMP NOTE: It's an EXTREMELY FLIMSY and unreliable check. If Landorus-T has any hint of damage, it's useless (EX: SR, prior damage, etc.). In fact, a +1 ExtremeSpeed from Adamant Life Orb has a 43.75% chance to OHKO Landorus-T without SR (Assuming EVs are the same as what are in the Landorus-T C&C skeleton posted around July). Compare this to Landorus-T's Adamant Choice Band Superpower which has a 37.5% chance to OHKO Arceus with the main spread without SR. Unfortunately, Landorus-T's Superpower is useless if you can't use it before being OHKOed.
Is this Pokemon honestly worth a mention for a check? During testing, it did not perform its duty very effectively. Therefore, I'm leaning towards no specific mention for Landorus-T.
The only real benefit of Landorus-T is Intimidate, which proves most useful like shrang said. Then again, I could use other Pokemon for that purpose. Therefore, I will be mentioning how Intimidate helps to reduce the threat that is Extreme Killer.
Gengar - Choice Scarf and SubDisable REJECTED - SUPERIMP NOTE: It's a very flimsy check. Gengar is not exactly the most ideal Pokemon to use in Ubers. Is it a must for a check?
For the "apparently" existent Choice Scarf set, Gengar has to rely on Focus Blastto actually damage Extreme Killer. Against the main spread of Extreme Killer, this does around 51.24 - 60.31%. Destiny Bond takes them both down, but assumes Extreme Killer attacks. If it doesn't, getting locked into Destiny Bond isn't fun. (Just a note, Destiny Bond is very uncommon on Gengar. Adding to this fact, how common is Gengar again?). A Recover variant could "scout" whether Gengar uses Focus Blast/Destiny Bond and react accordingly.
For SubDisable, check what Poppy mentioned in Post #9. SubDisable is so unreliable because of the mindgames.
Right now, I'm leaning towards no mention of Gengar as its reliability is questionable. Why are we mentioning Gengar over stuff like Sableye which aarguablyy is far more effective/reliable?Gengar can't take a single hit at all (AKA from Ghost-type attacks or possibly Fire-type). Also, Gengar is quite obscure. If someone has managed to successfully build a Uber team that works well AND uses Gengar as a successful check to Extreme Killer, please show me. Thanks.
Physically Defensive Ho-Oh REJECTED - SUPERIMP NOTE:If there's any SR, it's useless. Even Jolly without any item has a 50% chance to OHKO after SR! Without SR, it's still quite shaky. If Sacred Fire doesn't burn (Less than 50% because of Sacred Fire possibly missing), Ho-Oh loses. Even if it does burn, Ho-Oh can still lose if Extreme Killer gets good damage rolls (Relevant to Adamant Life Orb/Silk Scarf). Whirlwind works well in phazing, but is limited if Extreme Killer gets good damage rolls with ExtremeSpeed (If Ho-Oh phazes in something threatening (EX: Terrakion), Ho-Oh won't have the opportunity to Recover / Roost). Regenerator only gets you so far.
CB Metagross REJECTED - SUPERIMP NOTE: Completely loses to Earthquake variants. Hammer Arm can only take down somewhat weakened ones. Don't know whether to mention or not.
CB Scizor REJECTED - SUPERIMP NOTE: Choice Band Scizor is a really flimsy check to Extreme Killer given that just like Choice Band Landorus-T, it is easy to wear down (No reliable recovery sucks). Unless it is perfectly conserved, it is highly unlikely that it will be able to tank a boosted coverage move. In fact, a +2 Life Orb Earthquake has a 31.25% chance to OHKO without any hazards. During testing, Scizor wasn’t very reliable; prior damage often arose due to entry hazards as well as answering miscellaneous threats (i.e. Lati@s).
Right now, I’m leaning towards no specific mention for Choice Band Scizor given its shakiness and that I’m trying to keep the C&C section readable.
Here are the "Controversial" Checks currently accepted which will be mentioned
Bronzong SUPERIMP NOTE: Specially Defensive isn't the best. However, Physically Defensive works quite nicely! Only loses completely to Brick Break variants. Can tie/lose to Shadow Force variants depending on the item Extreme Killer has chosen (Lum Berry variants win). Wins against Shadow Claw variants assuming no crits - Left at a reasonably low HP. Lum Berry variants result in a tie though. The Trickroom set can "revenge" Extreme Killer with Gyro Ball (Not really) or Explosion as it survives any attack. Needs much prior damage though. If He has Recover, becomes much harder. CB variants are understandably much better.
Sableye REJECTEDSUPERIMP NOTE: It's better than Gengar! Check this link. Still determining whether to mention since it's really obscure.It passed QC. Although it can possibly Will-O-Wisp, it has to play a Taunt / Foul Play VS. Recover mindgame (Around as shaky as SubDisable; this is applicable to Life Orb variants) with the assumption that Sableye is Specially Defensive. If it is Physically Defensive, this mindgame is significantly reduced. However, Sableye now loses to sun-boosted Overheat outright. Sableye also loses to Earthquake Lum Berry variants, though it can still possibly burn (56.25%). Just remember, as a general rule, Sableye loses horribly if Will-O-Wisp misses.
<p>The Wallceus set is best handled by a Fighting-type with Guts such as Heracross, as they get an Attack raise from Will-O-Wisp thanks to their abilities, and will quickly pulverize Arceus with a mighty STAB Fighting-type attack. Heatran, Ho-Oh, and Reshiram also fear nothing from Will-O-Wisp, and easily roast Arceus to a crisp with their powerful STAB Fire-type attacks. Strong special attackers such as Kyogre and Mewtwo are pesky in general as Arceus is generally built to take physical assaults.</p>
NOTES - Poppy made the initial list
Original:
Checks/Counters:
Rewording Ho-Oh (I know Ho-Oh walls Arceus but good luck killing Arceus not in sun.)
Blaziken
Victini
Heatran
Arceus-Fire
Heracross
Xatu
Arceus-Fighting
Boosting special attackers if Arceus is not using Roar.
New (For Organization Purposes):
- General mention of how switching into Roar can possibly lose momentum
Counters:
Arceus-Fire
Arceus-Fighting
Heatran
Checks:
Xatu
Heracross
Reshiram
Victini
Blaziken
Boosting special attackers (if Arceus is not using Roar)
Strong special attackers such as Kyogre
Ho-Oh
Lugia
Support Pokemon with Toxic - Especially if they have Refresh, Rest/Sleep Talk, etc. (if Arceus is not using Refresh)
NOTES - for Choice Band
Counters:
Arceus-Ghost - Immune to Trick and ExtremeSpeed. Can cripple with Will-O-Wisp. Survives Shadow Claw with a chance of not being 2HKOed assuming HP investment (IF CB Arceus even has it... Else...). Either way, will outspeed as Choice Band runs Adamant (Jolly is too weak).
Arceus-Fighting - Immune to Trick. ExtremeSpeed is too weak - Still hurts though. Can possibly cripple with Will-O-Wisp (Despite it being very rare...). Doesn't care about whatever coverage move CB Arceus runs. Also has STAB Fighting-type attacks if He wants to attack.
In general, any bulky Arceus (With a plate) that has resistances/are neutral to CB Arceus' attacks work well. An example might include Arceus-Ground.
Physically Defensive Giratina-O - Immune to Trick, ExtremeSpeed, and Earthquake. Can cripple with Will-O-Wisp. Easily survives Shadow Claw (IF CB Arceus even has it... Else...). NOTE: Dragon Claw CAN possibly 2HKO with SR
Checks:
Terrakion can switch into any move besides Earthquake. Some variants may dislike Choice Band, but at least it doesn't cripple. Can't recover health very well though...
Choice Band Landorus-T (He works much better here than against Extreme Killer) can switch into any move (ExtremeSpeed still hurts though; it can possibly 2HKO after SR). Trick doesn't matter for obvious reasons. Superpower only revenges somewhat weakened ones. Unable to heal.
Choice Band Scizor (He works much better here than against Extreme Killer) can switch into any move besides Earthquake. Trick doesn't matter for obvious reasons. Superpower only revenges somewhat weakened ones. Unable to heal.
Groudon can easily switch into any attack. Trick can bother it, but it's not as crippled as the "main" answers to Extreme Killer. Can't recover health very well though...
Hippowdon can easily switch into any attack. Sandstorm helps wear down Choice Band Arceus. Trick can bother Hippowdon, but it's not as crippled as the "main" answers to Extreme Killer. It CAN heal though.
Skarmory, Lugia, Wallceus, Giratina, and Sableye can easily switch into any attack BESIDES Trick. If they switch into Trick, not pleasant. They could still Will-O-Wisp, Reflect, Dragon Tail, etc., but they are essentially crippled.
Arceus-Rock and Arceus-Steel are immune to Trick and resist ExtremeSpeed (Shadow Claw too for Arceus-Steel). They could then Will-O-Wisp or do whatever. However, Earthquake destroys both of them. Arceus could also run max speed Jolly with Choice Band too - still does enough damage.
Pretty much whatever is left are the other checks of Extreme Killer. Perhaps this should be mentioned instead?
[Unreleased]
<p>While Arceus does not receive a Dream World ability, there is one significant Pokemon that Normal Arceus is both helped and hurt by: Shadow Tag Chandelure. With Shadow Tag and powerful STAB Fire- and Ghost-type attacks, it can spell the doom of many of the Extreme Killer's counters, such as Lugia, Giratina, and Skarmory. Chandelure is also immune to Normal Arceus's only weakness—Fighting-type moves. However, Normal Arceus itself is also afraid of opposing Chandelure, as Shadow Tag and a quick sun-fueled Overheat can spell its doom. In the Dream World environment, you will have to play with Normal Arceus more carefully to avoid Chandelure frying it alive.</p>
QC checks: shrang, barry4ever, Poppy [3/3]
GP checks: n/a[0/2]
...
Sneak Preview
[OVERVIEW]
<p>After the pre-battle tintinnabulation is complete, please stare in pure, unadulterated horror and ominous presentiment at what is unequivocally the best Pokemon in the entire game. His stats unrivaled, His versatility is unmatched. His potential remains unlimited. He has transcended beyond mere typing, for Multitype allows Him to assume any of the seventeen types that He so desires. Even then, His purest forme remains seated upon His throne. Whether wiping His creations from the fabric of existence as Extreme Killer, or standing as their resolute guardian by virtue of Wallceus, the God of Pokemon knows no bounds. Dare not incur Arceus's divine wrath, or else the consequences shall be severe and merciless, and life shall become but an evanescent wisp.</p>
<p>When Extreme Killer appears on the battlefield, you know His final judgment has arrived. Little can avert His decision, for very good bulk and the priority of His ExtremeSpeed makes Him difficult to revenge. Combine it with a base 120 Attack stat, the ease of setting up a Swords Dance, and STAB on said ExtremeSpeed, and you get one of the most legendary late-game sweepers of all time, capable of decimating both offensive and defensive teams alike.</p>
<p>Swords Dance will enhance the power of His STAB ExtremeSpeed to apocalyptic levels, wiping away all but the most resilient. With just a Silk Scarf and Swords Dance boost, ExtremeSpeed is more than capable enough to OHKO even the bulkiest of Uber titans, such as Kyogre, Kyurem-W, Mewtwo, Latias, Palkia, and Reshiram.</p>
<p>Although the power of ExtremeSpeed is divine, coverage moves are necessary to account for its deficiencies. A Ghost-type attack is crucial against the Ghost-type Pokemon that can come in on ExtremeSpeed with impunity. Shadow Claw with its high reliability is the preferred option against these threats. For those who crave more power, Shadow Force is a better option. Its power after a Swords Dance is so obscene that even physically defensive Giratina risks being OHKOed without any hazards provided Arceus is Adamant and holding Life Orb. Giratina-O and Ghost Arceus are OHKOed without a glance, while any Wobbuffet concerns are alleviated. Shadow Force also evades crippling support moves such as Will-O-Wisp during its charge turn, though the charge turn in itself can prove most inconvenient against Lugia and Normal-type Pokemon. For His last slot, Earthquake eradicates the Rock- and Steel-type Pokemon that could otherwise take an ExtremeSpeed, such as Dialga or Heatran. Brick Break though less powerful breaks through troublesome screens and is significantly more effective against Bronzong, Ferrothorn, Skarmory, and Himself as Wallceus. Recover allows Him to act as a pivot at the detriment of coverage.</p>
[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
<p>With STAB ExtremeSpeed as His judgment, you might wonder why the God of Pokemon even bothers with Speed. After all, the given EVs and nature grant Him an unparalleled combination of maximum power, bulk, and just enough Speed to outpace neutral base 90 Speed Pokemon. But alas, Arceus proves far more adaptable, capable of running several EV spreads just as effective as the last.</p>
<p>Using the given EVs as a starting point, invest as many Speed EVs as desired to outspeed certain key threats. If you would like to outspeed neutral base 95 Speed Pokemon like Adamant Rayquaza, 56 Spe EVs is sufficient.124 Spe EVs is enough to outpace positive base 90s like Timid Dialga, while 168 Spe EVs is adequate to outspeed any positive base 95s like Jolly Rayquaza. For other key threats, a Jolly nature becomes necessary. 160 Spe EVs is sufficient to outspeed positive base 108 Speed Pokemon like Terrakion. 176 Spe EVs is necessary to outpace positive base 110s like Froslass. Finally, 252 Spe EVs will guarantee a Speed tie against opposing maximum Speed Arceus. Once this desired Speed has been reached, maximize Attack and then place any remaining EVs into HP to increase His overall bulk.</p>
<p>In His original state, Arceus can access almost any item that is to be offered; His choice is entirely dependent on His intended role. For those seeking a balanced approach, Silk Scarf is the preferred option. It provides a 20% boost to ExtremeSpeed without compromising bulk. For the more offensively inclined, Life Orb is a better option. Although it costs dearly in recoil, it provides a great deal more power to not only ExtremeSpeed, but to all of His coverage moves. With just a Life Orb and Swords Dance boost, ExtremeSpeed is capable of OHKOing threats such as Kyurem-B, Zekrom, and tank Ho-Oh without any hazards. It is also the best item to use against His top defensive checks, in particular Lugia. If the Speed of Jolly is favored, Life Orb is recommended to compensate for Jolly’s reduced power in comparison with Adamant.</p>
<p>If you prefer a more tactical approach, Lum Berry is useful for its one-time status protection. However, the power loss is substantial; without the boost from Silk Scarf or Life Orb, Arceus is unable to OHKO many Pokemon such as Palkia and Mewtwo without sufficient entry hazard support. If you wish to maximize Arceus's staying power, Leftovers takes full advantage of His very good bulk. It works particularly well with a bulkier spread in combination with Recover. When making such a spread, invest as many Speed EVs as desired, maximize HP, and then place any remaining EVs into Attack. Power Herb can be used alongside Shadow Force and Stealth Rock to always get past Lugia and specially defensive Giratina, but is otherwise very specific and does not boost damage.</p>
<p>Although the given coverage moves are generally the most reliable, it is to be noted that these slots are extremely flexible. A Life Orb-boosted Overheat incinerates Skarmory, Sableye, and Bronzong under sun, but is next to useless under rain. If you forgo Life Orb, Fire Blast is a better option while also having increased utility against Ferrothorn and Forretress. Dragon Claw can be used over Shadow Claw for its increased power against Giratina and Giratina-O, but loses utility against Lugia and Ghost Arceus. Grass Knot 2HKOes Groudon and Hippowdon on the switch, but restricts coverage substantially. Similarly, Safeguard can prevent status for multiple turns, while Substitute eases prediction, protects against status, and punishes offensive revenge killers.</p>
<p>Even though Arceus is mighty indeed as Extreme Killer, it is unwise to use Him alone. Two approaches exist to counteract His destructive temperament: defensive titans and offensive revenge killers. Defensive titans consist of very bulky Toxic stallers, phazers, or Will-O-Wisp abusers. Offensive revenge killers consist of Pokemon that can survive at least one of His faster boosted attacks comfortably yet deal considerable damage back. Nevertheless, no approach is guaranteed. In this sense, Arceus is highly specialized; He might be able to overpower certain checks at a time, but He is unable to overpower everything at a time. The creations that best support Him are the ones which account for the shortcomings in His specialization.</p>
<p>Against the former, the best support is to weaken any defensive Pokemon capable of dealing with His specialization. Luring these Pokemon out and sufficiently damaging them is crucial for His success. Pokemon such as Blaziken, Groudon, Ho-Oh, and Rayquaza can make excellent lures, since Arceus's defensive answers are often used in response to these threats. Powerful wallbreakers such as Kyogre, Kyurem-W, Latios, Mewtwo, and Reshiram, though not exactly the best lures, can leave serious gaps in the opponent’s team, possibly exposing these Pokemon as well as easing Arceus’s sweep. Entry hazard shuffling is also quite beneficial in both the damage and exposure element. Finally, specific answers that can come in on troublesome defensive Pokemon happen to be excellent teammates. Magnezone can easily trap and eliminate Skarmory. Stallbreaker Heatran is an excellent answer against Wallceus. Giratina and Lugia greatly dislike Darkrai, Zekrom, Reshiram, and Kyurem-W.</p>
<p>Against the latter, the best support is to either weaken these revenge killers to the point where a faster boosted attack can OHKO, cripple their Speed, or reduce their offense to a more manageable level. Entry hazards are great for their damaging properties; Pokemon such as Deoxys-S, Ferrothorn, and Groudon make excellent entry hazard users. Lures that are similarly revenged killed to Arceus, like Swords Dance Rayquaza or double status Darkrai, can either deal considerable damage or cripple with status. Proper weather control is crucial as several revenge killers are dependent on it for speed, such as Kabutops and Omastar, as well as their offense, such as Choice Scarf Heatran. Dual Screens from Pokemon like Deoxys-S and Latios are helpful for softening enemy assaults. Carrying specific answers to His revenge killers is also a wise choice should you be unable to eliminate their threat. For instance, Wobbuffet can easily dispatch Choice Scarf users while also buying Him a turn to use Swords Dance if necessary. Of course, keeping Arceus healthy is an option as all revenge killers are unable to OHKO Him should He be at relatively high health.</p>
<p>As an honorable mention, Unaware Quagsire is without doubt the best Extreme Killer counter in the game. Nothing but it is capable of trolling the God of Pokemon Himself by switching into a +6 ExtremeSpeed and proceeding to Toxic stall. Only through Grass Knot or Toxic Spikes can Arceus possibly prevail.</p>
<p>Standing up to the might of fearsome Uber titans, Wallceus can function as a nearly unbreakable wall. His excellent bulk is already inclined to taking hits well; His Defense is so formidable that He is one of the best answers to the legendary Extreme Killer. Although His Normal typing isn’t exactly the holy grail for defensive typing, He stands out from His other formes with a lone weakness and the ability to hold Leftovers.</p>
<p>To keep the physical attackers at bay, Will-O-Wisp is the preferred option. A crippling burn disables nearly every physical sweeper in Ubers—Groudon, Rayquaza, physical Arceus, Garchomp, and Zekrom, to name a few—for the rest of the match. Will-O-Wisp also saps the afflicted opponent’s HP, allowing Arceus to either outstall, phaze, or overpower the burned opponent. However, Will-O-Wisp's accuracy is shaky and does nothing to Fire-type Pokemon like Ho-Oh. If these issues are particularly bothersome to you, Reflect is a better option. Although it lasts only five turns and can be canceled by Brick Break, Reflect does not miss, benefits the whole team, and can affect physical attackers behind a Substitute. Recover provides reliable recovery and lengthens His staying power, while Return provides a solid STAB attack that increases offensive pressure. It also enables Him to defeat Extreme Killer without the need to phaze.</p>
<p>For His last slot, both options are useful for their utility against setup sweepers. Roar is the preferred option as it immediately phazes any threat that tries to set up, most notably physical attackers that have been neutralized by Will-O-Wisp or Reflect. It also weakens most switch-ins provided there is sufficient entry hazard support. For those willing to take a longer approach, Perish Song is a better option. Although it takes three turns to have an effect, Perish Song will guarantee an eventual switch and will place an inevitable end to last-Pokemon setup sweepers like Calm Mind Arceus.</p>
Furai
Jul 7th, 2012 12:24:33 PM
Use this. It's already Q/Ced and all it needs is a write-up.
Nexus
Jul 7th, 2012 12:41:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat Furai
(Post 4308865)
Use this. It's already Q/Ced and all it needs is a write-up.
Already asked me if he could use it and I told him yes noob furry -__-
Superimp
Jul 7th, 2012 1:18:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat Nexus
(Post 4308891)
Already asked me if he could use it and I told him yes noob furry -__-
It's fine Nexus ;). Though I did mention it was likely I would use Poppy's stuff in the first post, I haven't exactly placed his stuff in yet. In fact, the link Furai provided will prove most useful in this task as I won't have to look inside the Locked / Outdated Analyses section as much. Anyway, thank you both for letting me use this stuff as well as giving an easily accessible link. Really appreciate it.
NOTE: I'm assuming the QC checks will still hold true if I use Poppy's stuff? Or will it need new QC checks? Thanks.
Furai
Jul 7th, 2012 1:28:50 PM
Unless BW got it something extrmely useful, or something else can now defeat it, I think they still hold. And fuck you Nexsux gtfo I didn't know he just posted a skeleton
Superimp
Jul 7th, 2012 2:34:48 PM
Massive Update to First Post
Thanks Furai for the prompt response about QC checks! On that note, Poppy's stuff has now been added to the first post. Still, new information might be necessary because of the metagame shift (EX: Multiscale Lugia). Thus, QC checks are tentatively placed in the title. This will be changed if the Ubers QC team feels new QC checks are required.
If you feel something is missing from this analysis, please post!
EDIT: The QC checks were previously from:
- Poppy
- barry4ever
- shrang
Could you please reconfirm these/all QC checks so that this analysis can enter the "Copyediting" stage? If not, could someone else on the QC team check? Or are any major additions necessary? Thanks.
shrang
Jul 8th, 2012 1:31:14 AM
This looks fine, just make sure you gear the analysis towards Black and White 2 by mentioning how it fares against the new threats. A couple of small things:
- Mention Landorus-T in Checks and Counters for ExtremeKiller. Yes, it is quite a flimsy check, but at full health, it can take a +1 ExtremeSpeed (thanks to Intimidate) and deal a truckload of damage with Choice Banded Superpower, much like Scizor can. Mention how Intimidate is helpful in dealing with ExtremeKiller in general.
- Mention Gengar as well for an ExtremeKiller check. Again, it is pretty flimsy, but you are immune to ExtremeSpeed and can deal quite a bit of damage with Focus Blast (if it hits). Choice Scarf Gengar outspeeds all ExtremeKiller variants, while SubDisable can, with some prediction, beat slower variants.
Otherwise, I'll stamp this again. QC APPROVED 1/3
Theorymon
Jul 8th, 2012 1:52:51 AM
I think a CB set should be added, but only as the last set AND it has to have Trick. The set being
revenging stuff with ExtremeSpeed is nice and all, but the real point of this set is that a lot of Arceus switch ins like Giratina, Lugia, and Skarmory REALLY hate getting tricked a Choice Band (and of course teammates should reflect this). The tough part is coverage moves... if you use Swords Dance and Earthquake, it does fine but it 100% loses to Giratina-O, but if you use Shadow Claw, you won't get past Steels. If you value coverage more than sweeping power, then you can nix SD for Shadow Claw. So generally this isn't going to sweep as well as regular SD Arceus, but it deserves a set just because its a decent lure, and of course CB ExtremeSpeed can save you in a pinch against some offensive stuff (I'll get calcs later if you need that). Otherwise... Arceus didn't really change much!
Poppy
Jul 8th, 2012 9:13:19 AM
emphasise flimsy for that lando-t being a check...
scarf gengar with destiny bond is a decent check, subdisable is tough because jolly variants outspeed and smart players will outspeed disable with extremespeed so they can continue attacking with shadow claw
add in tmon's trick set, it's good
then you'll get my stamp
Superimp
Jul 8th, 2012 9:55:12 PM
The analysis has now been updated with Theorymon's Choice Band set. Intimidate and the new threats of BW2 are mentioned. Landorus-T and Gengar remain controversial as checks to Extreme Killer, see Checks/Counters section in the first post for more details. This should hopefully be the last of any significant changes.
Could QC please check the Choice Band set and the Checks/Counters in detail? Thanks.
EDIT: Could someone post after Post #12 please, I would rather not double post. Thanks.
Mr.lol
Jul 8th, 2012 10:18:39 PM
Quote:
Shadow Force to be deslashed and put into AC? Or should it stay slashed? Right now, it's slashed. Shadow Force DOES have obscene power though... It's still used a fair bit according to Moveset Analysis.
Ok just to clear this up BEFORE you start writing, the reason why Shadow Force should be even considered over Shadow Claw is NOT because of the humongous power boost, nay. Unless your using it with Power Herb, Shadow Force's MAIN USE IS TO TAKE THAT EXTRA POISON TURN AND TAKE ADVANTAGE OF TOXIC SPIKES.It allows Arceus to evade a WoW from Gira-a, then strike back after its taken a tad bit of residual damage, which can actually be lethal, if toxic spikes aren't present Gira-a GAINS Leftovers instead, Lugia can Reflect. If its going in AC make sure you mention that, because I have a feeling that everyone forgot that -_-. Also emphasize in AC that one Shadow Force is weaker then two Shadow Claws, warn of using it at all costs unless you have Toxic Spikes support. <- Yes I just rewrote the same statement twice in different words and bolded it, ITS THAT IMPORTANT.
Also mention Kabutops and Omastar as checks to the ExtremeKiller set since they can come in to Extremekiller as it Swords Dances, and then OHKO it next turn with a Superpower / Low Kick (Kabutops) and Hydro Pump (Omastar). Both of them don't really care about ExtremeSpeed due to respectable defenses and a resist given courtesy of typing, and they outspeed due to swift swim :D. I normally wouldn't bother to mention these things but if we are mentioning things like Gengar...... yeah...
EDIT: TO THE POST BELOW MINE, two Shadow Claws already have greater power then a Shadow Force, so really those calcs are slightly unimportant. The only important one is the wobba one, the others, Arceus can just shadow claw twice and not risk hitting Chansey instead. Lugia sets up reflect anyway on the turn it dissapears (lol).
EDIT2: DIRECTED TO THE EDIT OF THE POST BELOW MINE, well after Gira-a gets that one turn of leftovers its no longer always OHKOed :(, and like I said Lugia can Reflect. So those calcs are a bit iffy too :(.
Also
Quote:
Concerning Gengar, I would be inclined to agree with you. Gengar is not exactly the ideal Pokemon to use in Ubers.
BEST EUPHEMISM ever <- do not read with Sardonic tone, that literally was THE BEST EUPHEMISM EVER :D. In other words, this is a compliment, not an offensive statement.
EDIT 3: It won't even always OHKO Gira-a after lefties and rocks all the time. That and the chances of it landing are slim.
Also a reply to you :P
...
Start of turn 4
[DKW-SubL]Silver W.'s Arceus used Swords Dance!
[DKW-SubL]Silver W.'s Arceus's Attack sharply rose!
Xatu used Toxic!
[DKW-SubL]Silver W.'s Arceus was badly poisoned!
Rain continues to fall!
[DKW-SubL]Silver W.'s Arceus is hurt by poison!
Start of turn 5
R-spin called Xatu back!
R-spin sent out Giratina!
Giratina is exerting its Pressure!
[DKW-SubL]Silver W.'s Arceus used Swords Dance!
[DKW-SubL]Silver W.'s Arceus's Attack sharply rose!
Rain continues to fall!
[DKW-SubL]Silver W.'s Arceus is hurt by poison!
Start of turn 6
[DKW-SubL]Silver W.'s Arceus vanished instantly!
Giratina used Roar!
The attack of Giratina missed!
Rain continues to fall!
[DKW-SubL]Silver W.'s Arceus is hurt by poison!
Start of turn 7
R-spin called Giratina back!
R-spin sent out Chansey!
[DKW-SubL]Silver W.'s Arceus used Shadow Force!
It had no effect!
Rain continues to fall!
[DKW-SubL]Silver W.'s Arceus is hurt by poison!
Start of turn 8
R-spin called Chansey back!
R-spin sent out Giratina!
Giratina is exerting its Pressure!
[DKW-SubL]Silver W.'s Arceus used Earthquake!
Giratina lost 304 HP! (60% of its health)
Rain continues to fall!
Giratina restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
[DKW-SubL]Silver W.'s Arceus is hurt by poison!
Start of turn 9
R-spin called Giratina back!
R-spin sent out Ferrothorn!
[DKW-SubL]Silver W.'s Arceus used ExtremeSpeed!
It's not very effective...
Ferrothorn lost 188 HP! (53% of its health)
Ferrothorn's Iron Barbs hurts [DKW-SubL]Silver W.'s Arceus
[DKW-SubL]Silver W.'s Arceus fainted!
Do tell how you did get those nifty colors on, they won't transfer in this thing :(, and I'm certain I've seen other people do the same, I remember doing it too just forgot how D:.
EDIT 4: Yeah the comments are fine now :P. EDIT WARS are fun, although I think people are going wth is this lol. Thanks for the color info :D, yes I was R-spin.
Superimp
Jul 8th, 2012 10:58:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat Mr.lol
(Post 4311263)
Ok just to clear this up BEFORE you start writing, the reason why Shadow Force should be even considered over Shadow Claw is NOT because of the humongous power boost, nay. Unless your using it with Power Herb, Shadow Force's MAIN USE IS TO TAKE THAT EXTRA POISON TURN AND TAKE ADVANTAGE OF TOXIC SPIKES.It allows Arceus to evade a WoW from Gira-a, then strike back after its taken a tad bit of residual damage, which can actually be lethal, if toxic spikes aren't present Gira-a GAINS Leftovers instead, Lugia can Reflect. If its going in AC make sure you mention that, because I have a feeling that everyone forgot that -_-. Also emphasize in AC that one Shadow Force is weaker then two Shadow Claws, warn of using it at all costs unless you have Toxic Spikes support. <- Yes I just rewrote the same statement twice in different words and bolded it, ITS THAT IMPORTANT.
Also mention Kabutops and Omastar as checks to the ExtremeKiller set since they can come in to Extremekiller as it Swords Dances, and then OHKO it next turn with a Superpower / Low Kick (Kabutops) and Hydro Pump (Omastar). Both of them don't really care about ExtremeSpeed due to respectable defenses and a resist given courtesy of typing, and they outspeed due to swift swim :D. I normally wouldn't bother to mention these things but if we are mentioning things like Gengar...... yeah...
What you have said about Shadow Force is certainly quite true. The power is still important though as it alleviates Wobbuffet concerns and stands a respectable chance at OHKOing Giratina and Lugia after SR with Life Orb, SD, and Adamant. He also easily OHKOs Physically Defensive Giratina-O with Life Orb (Adamant guaranteed, Jolly 50%). Actually, Shadow Force might be good enough due to all these points and yours to stay as a slash despite its charge turn. Thanks for your points Mr.lol, I'll be sure to use them for Shadow Force.
SS Kabutops and Omastar are certainly checks. That's why they were already mentioned. However, what you have given definitely shows that they are checks.
Concerning Gengar, I would be inclined to agree with you. Gengar is not exactly the ideal Pokemon to use in Ubers. But then again, Gengar could be annoying to Extreme Killer, however flimsy (and rare) it may be. QC? Should Gengar be seriously mentioned? Thanks.
EDIT: Because they are possible OHKOs, they are important. After a Swords Dance, the turns that come after do matter. For instance, using Shadow Claw twice leaves you vulnerable to Will-O-Wisp, Roar, and assorted. Shadow Force allows you to avoid those and possibly OHKO Giratina, Lugia, etc. If they switch, Shadow Force will damage whatever comes in. However, it helps to get rid of any Normal-type Pokemon if applicable like you said before beginning a serious sweep.
Concerning Shadow Force (without Power Herb), it does better against Giratina, not Lugia. As you are fully aware of, Lugia has Reflect and also Multiscale.
EDIT 2:
Reply to Mr.lol
Like you and I said Mr.lol, it's a possible OHKO. Here is the damage calculation for a +2 Adamant Life Orb Arceus against standard Great Wall Giratina:
Shadow Force: 447-528 (88.86 - 104.97%) -- 31.25% chance to OHKO
This calculation works with both SR or no SR on the field (Providing Giratina is at full health, not poisoned, carrying leftovers, and there is no damaging weather). 31.25% to OHKO (Not counting crits) is still respectable. What more, the chance to OHKO is further increased by having Spikes, Toxic Spikes, damaging weather, or just plain damaging Giratina before. By having just a single layer of Spikes and SR, Giratina is a guaranteed goner. Toxic Spikes? Goner. Damage? Goner. Critical hit? Goner :P
Of course, if one assumes Specially Defensive Giratina, it's an entirely different story. It is to be noted though that this variant of Giratina would likely be a last resort check to Extreme Killer. Anyway, here is that same Arceus against this Giratina:
Shadow Force doesn't only apply to the Giratina formes. Arceus-Ghost hates it. Here is the calculation for a +2 Jolly Life Orb Arceus against Arceus-Ghost (Support):
This is without doubt a OHKO. Just as Earthquake destroys Arceus-Rock and Arceus-Steel, Shadow Force destroys Arceus-Ghost. And since Jolly Life Orb Extreme Killer variants tend to run max speed, on average Arceus-Ghost will lose.
Even if Arceus-Ghost runs max Def and HP investment, He still has no chance. Here is the calculation for that same Arceus against a very bulky Arceus-Ghost:
As previously mentioned by yourself and I, Shadow Force isn't very good against Lugia. This is especially true with Multiscale and Reflect. If one wants to run Shadow Force, they better have an answer to Lugia or ensure it's damaged sufficiently. Or they could run Power Herb + Shadow Force + SR. But that's an OO...
If I could leave you with one thought after you read the reply, it's this:
...
Start of turn 21
The foe's Arceus vanished instantly!
Giratina used Will-O-Wisp!
The attack of Giratina missed!
Start of turn 22
The foe's Arceus used Shadow Force!
It's super effective!
Giratina lost 503 HP! (100% of its health)
Giratina fainted!
The foe's Arceus is hurt by its Life Orb!
EDIT 3:
You are correct. Like you and I said, the OHKO is a possibility, a chance. It is still respectable though. For your case of SR and Leftovers, there is a 31.25% chance of Arceus OHKOing Giratina (Great Wall) with a +2 Adamant Life Orb Shadow Force (Check the first damage calculation of Edit 2 for source). This does not include chance of crits.
I probably should have made the first damage calculation more explicit in referring to SR and Leftovers. Remember, Giratina switching into SR and two turns of Leftovers is essentially the same as switching into no SR.
Again, it is important to note that other stuff like Spikes, Toxic Spikes (Which you mentioned), previous damage on Giratina, etc. significantly increases the chance of an OHKO. For instance, SR and 1 layer of Spikes essentially guarantees an OHKO. Shadow Force is a fine option against Giratina (and others) when used properly.
About your log, it does not seem to showcase Shadow Force in its best light. In fact, it doesn't even show Extreme Killer in a good light. The individual who used Extreme Killer seemed to use Him very early in the game, clearly evident by the turn count. When facing a team as defensive as that, it might prove useful to weaken it a bit before sending out Extreme Killer. I assume you were R-spin?
If you want colors, just use this:
[COLOR=Insert Hex Color]Insert Text Here[/COLOR].
To be honest, I just copied one of my many test logs (Logs which are testing Shadow Force's performance against Giratina and vice versa) and pasted it here. Seemed to work fine for me.
NOTE: I'll be sure to use the points gathered during this discussion for Shadow Force! Right now, I'm leaning towards keeping it as a second slash, but with lots of comments in AC about its advantages/disadvantages over Shadow Claw. Thanks.
EDIT 4: Check the first post of this thread for my planned comments on Shadow Force. Are these suitable?
Furai
Jul 11th, 2012 5:01:51 PM
Choice Band set looks good.
Checks and Counters looks good, put a mention of Bronzong there. I am SO iffy on Sableye and Gengar, they are a total fail in Ubers. If you do mention them, be sure to mention they suck, as much as I love Sableye.
Poppy
Jul 12th, 2012 5:24:39 AM
scarf gengar is a better check than most might think, scarf, let alone destiny bond is quite a rare sight. although, traditionally we don't rely on 'surprise' factor as a measure of effectiveness so i want more experienced members of QC to weigh in here; however, i am leaning towards mentioning this as a 'decent check, but if arceus doesn't attack you've most likely lost.'
bronzong can only toxic so just make sure you say that (i don't even know why you would mention it though, since forretress basically does the same thing)
i would actually put fighting arceus at number 6, with max special attack it has a good chance at OHKOing most extremekiller, whereas scarf dialga / heatran need substantial residual, omastar and kabutops need less residual but are rain reliant and omastar can only use hydro pump.
firecape
Jul 12th, 2012 1:51:11 PM
I'm hesitant about calling Skarmory a counter. I mean, it can phase it out, but it doesn't really pose an immediate threat. Brave Bird takes like 1/4th of Arceus's HP, while +2 ExtremeSpeed does 35.92 - 41.91% to SpD Skarmory. +6 ExtremeSpeed does 71.25 - 84.13%. I mean its a very solid check, but if Extreme Killer is the last mon you can't really count on Skarmory unless you are running something weird like Toxic Skarmory or have Toxic Spikes support and you can phase it out after/if it used a Lum Berry.
Superimp
Jul 12th, 2012 3:14:04 PM
Replies to Recent Posters
Here are my replies to Furai, Poppy, and firecape.
Replying to Furai:
...
Thanks for looking at those sections! Really appreciate it.
Bronzong is mentioned. I did some testing and found that its Physically Defensive set worked quite well. The Trickroom set also worked though not as effectively. Check the Checks / Counters section again for more details, or just wait for my upcoming test results.
It is likely I won't mention Gengar. Unless the majority of QC members believe Gengar to be a fundamental check to Extreme Killer, it will probably stay that way.
I'm not too sure on what to do with Sableye. I'll wait for more opinions from QC. However, if I had a choice of mentioning Gengar or Sableye, I would choose Sableye. Weren't you the one who proposed Sableye's analysis? :)
Thanks for the feedback Furai!
Replying to Poppy:
...
The question is, how viable is Gengar as an Extreme Killer "Check" in Ubers? Check what Furai and Mr.lol have said from this very thread:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat Mr.lol
I normally wouldn't bother to mention these things but if we are mentioning things like Gengar...... yeah...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat Furai
I am SO iffy on Sableye and Gengar, they are a total fail in Ubers.
They seem a bit skeptical to me. For that matter, so I am.
There are other Choice Scarf users who are Ghost-type and can use Destiny Bond. Mismagius, Froslass, etc... Am I supposed to mention them too? They don't have Focus Blast, but Gengar's Focus Blast isn't exactly the best method to check Extreme Killer. I mean, even Choice Scarf Durant is more reliable! Choice Scarf Durant can switch into any move besides Overheat (Very rare according to Moveset Analysis) and then Superpower. It's still more accurate than Focus Blast despite Hustle. It does more damage too! But does that mean Durant deserves a specific mention? Even if it has a usage of 0.158% last month?
If you absolutely believe in Choice Scarf Destiny Bond, I could mention how Choice Scarfers immune to ExtremeSpeed with Destiny Bond can prove most annoying to Extreme Killer as...(Insert Destiny Bond stuff here). It would imply Gengar, Froslass, etc. I could also mention Choice Scarf Trickers too. But a specific mention of Gengar? I'll wait for more QC members to seriously agree to Gengar being mentioned as a specific check before it goes in. As well as a host of other things: Durant, Scarf Chandelure (Without Shadow Tag), Chilan Berry users who can possibly OHKO Extreme Killer like Conkeldurr Low Kick, etc. One can only mention so many "checks" before it becomes convoluted.
While I was testing, a Physically Defensive Bronzong did much better than Forretress. It could switch-in, Reflect, Toxic, and proceed to spam Gyro Ball. It loses horribly to Brick Break variants though. The Trickroom set on the other hand can easily switch-in and get off one Gyro Ball. This could help "revenge" a weakened Extreme Killer. Overall, I found Bronzong a check worthy of being mentioned (Check the Checks / Counters section again for more details. Or just wait for my upcoming test results).
I'll respond to your Arceus-Fighting comment later with my test results. I actually tested all variants of Arceus-Fighting for checking Extreme Killer. Like you said, max special attack has a possibility of OHKOing Extreme Killer after SR. But I found Extreme Killer's ExtremeSpeed always severely damaged Arceus-Fighting using that EV spread. So much so that in normal battling conditions, max special attack Arceus-Fighting is a bit unreliable for checking Extreme Killer. This is especially true with Adamant Life Orb/Silk Scarf. Again, my upcoming test results will explain this in more detail.
Nevertheless, I will move Arceus-Fighting's position up. But not for the reason of max special attack (It might get a minor mention though).
Thanks Poppy for the input. Will change Arceus-Fighting's position. I'm still not too sure on whether position 6 or 7 would best fit Arceus-Fighting.
P.S. The previous position of Arceus-Fighting was pretty much from your WIP thread. It only moved down one position because of a certain hippo :P.
Replying to firecape:
...
I’ll start with the responses of some QC members from Poppy’s WIP thread concerning Skarmory:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat shrang
Skarmory should be #1, IMO. Toxic / Spikes / Whirlwind shut down Arceus completely, even if it's a last mon.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat Poppy
Agreed that outside of a silly Substitute last Pokemon situation Skarmory will win almost 100% of the time. Except sun-boosted Overheat which has a 68.75% chance to OHKO without SR. However, neutral weather Overheat has no chance at OHKOing Skarmory, even with SR.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat trickroom
Skarmory is easily the best counter there is. Overheat with LO will 2HKO it at worst though outside of rain.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat barry4ever
Skarmory should definitely be the number one check since it can take on any Arceus even those with Overheat (not sun). Mention that in this case Toxic is definitely necessary otherwise Arceus will just get to +6 and kill you anyway.
Simple Roost and Whirlwind will stop Arceus.
Their responses seem pretty solid to me. It should be self-explanatory.
For Brave Bird, it's a third slash on Skarmory's Uber analysis. It is more likely Skarmory will phaze, Toxic, or Roost before Brave Birding (If applicable).
Your damage calculations assume Adamant Life Orb. With different items/natures, it's going to do much less. This is especially true with Lum Berry.
You have an excellent point on "running something weird." Despite the fact Toxic is the first slash on Skarmory's Uber analysis, its usage is not the best. Toxic was used on 14.0% of all Skarmory according to last month. On May, it was used on 22.6% of all Skarmory.
Like you said, Skarmory may have problems if Arceus is the last Pokemon and you don't have Toxic. When I write up the Skarmory part, I'll be sure to put a mention that Toxic is necessary to defeat Arceus when He is the last Pokemon. Should be no problem.
I'll post my test results for Checks / Counters later after I finished testing Physically Defensive Ho-Oh and CB Metagross. Are there any more possible "checks" you would like me to test (Preferably something which won't waste my time)? Thanks.
shrang
Jul 13th, 2012 9:04:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat Poppy
(Post 4310092)
emphasise flimsy for that lando-t being a check...
scarf gengar with destiny bond is a decent check, subdisable is tough because jolly variants outspeed and smart players will outspeed disable with extremespeed so they can continue attacking with shadow claw
add in tmon's trick set, it's good
then you'll get my stamp
Just saying, it's actually not that easy to get Gengar to Disable ExtremeSpeed. Once Arceus breaks the Sub with Shadow Claw, the best move on Gengar is actually to Sub again. Basically, you follow this flow-chart:
1) Gengar uses Sub
V
2) Arceus uses Shadow Claw, Sub broken -> Use Disable to Disable Shadow Claw
V
3) Gengar uses Sub -> Arceus uses Shadow Claw -> Go back to stage 2
V
Arceus uses ExtremeSpeed -> Spam Focus Blast
You generally have 4-5 Substitutes you can actually make against a slow Arceus. That's 4-5 chances you'll get the mind-game of Disable vs Substitute correct. Those aren't bad odds, IMO.
Poppy
Jul 15th, 2012 10:57:13 AM
i'm probably a bit biased against bronzong because i think it's worthless but i do realize its immunity to EQ makes it a better check than forretress
skarm often carries toxic in ubers so it's definitely more of a counter than a check
this gengar argument is ridiculous and i'm satsified with leaving gengar as some sort situational check or just not mentioning it at all
the fighting arceus set i'm actually getting at is 240 hp 252 spa 16 spe modest which i used as my extremekiller check for a few teams. so you can just mention that fighting areus is a good check but needs bulk and maximum special attack to be reliable.
i do take your point about obscure checks so i do think it should stop here
don't mention sableye it's shit
forretress should have pain split as a primary option but that's another story entirely (another update for me to get onto)
edit: you need to pair physically defensive ho-oh with gira-o/a or ghost arceus with roar or WoW to beat arceus. that ho-oh's main purpose is to take one extremespeed and attempt to burn it then switch out to something else that can handle burned arceus.
barry4ever
Jul 19th, 2012 7:54:39 AM
I guess its fine if you mention Gengar just stick it at the bottom of the pile with Landorus-T and co, to be used as a last resort check if you have no other alternative (seriously) No to CB Metagross. Seriously, why are we mentioning these stuff anyway. Its not like they ever get used in Ubers anyway. Doesnt make a difference I guess. This analysis looks good otherwise, the transition for Arceus to b/w2 was pretty smooth i guess.
QC Approved 2/3
Superimp
Jul 26th, 2012 3:59:28 PM
Replies to Recent Posters
Here are my replies to shrang, Poppy, and barry4ever.
Replying to shrang:
...
Thanks for bringing this up shrang. Against a slower Arceus, Gengar with Substitute does have a slight advantage. Disable is not even necessary for some scenarios! During my Gengar testing, I found Substitute to be quite useful for dealing with Life Orb variants. Assuming Gengar was at a reasonable HP, it could just keep subbing (Avoiding all mindgames entirely) until Extreme Killer was in KO range of Focus Blast. A possible miss wasn't pleasant though.
Against variants without Life Orb, I found SubDisable Gengar to be way too shaky for comfort. The Substitute / Disable mindgame isn't the most reliable method for checking Extreme Killer. Even with the possibility of multiple attempts, one wrong prediction messes it up for Gengar.
There are other factors too. Recover variants makes the mindgame even worse. Focus Blast has an unfortunate tendency to miss. Of course, faster variants render Gengar useless.
In short, SubDisable Gengar is not that reliable compared to other more solid checks. It's a bit situational and very flimsy.
I may be wrong about Gengar usefulness as a check. I did find its SubDisable set a bit useful against (slower) Life Orb variants. Let's examine the facts about SubDisable Gengar.
Pros for SubDisable Gengar being mentioned as a check:
Can switch into many of Extreme Killer's moves.
Annoying.
Surprise factor.
Can possible defeat slower Life Orb variants without any mindgames.
If the mindgame works, Extreme Killer will likely switch out.
Focus Blast can possibly revenge slower variants.
Cons for SubDisable Gengar being mentioned as a check:
Gengar is obscure.
Gengar has to play a dangerous mindgame against non-Life Orb variants. This mindgame is a bit unreliable, which makes Gengar a very flimsy check. Other moves like Overheat / Recover makes the mindgame even worse.
Only "works" against variants which are slower.
Gengar relies on Focus Blast for damage. Its accuracy isn't the best.
Can't switch into Shadow Claw at all (Or Overheat).
Gengar isn't exactly the most ideal Pokemon to use in Ubers.
Situational
I can see why Gengar might be considered a "check." But I can also see how Gengar might not warrant a mention.
If you want some more elaboration/details, check my reply to Poppy in Post #16 of this thread.
For the time being, Gengar will not be mentioned aside from a general Choice Scarf Trick/Destiny Bond mention. Unless QC seriously agrees to Gengar being mentioned as specific check as well as others like Durant, Physically Defensive Gyarados, Chilan Berry users who can possibly OHKO Extreme Killer like Conkeldurr Low Kick, etc., it is likely Gengar won't be mentioned. There can only be so many “checks” before it becomes convoluted.
Thanks shrang for all your input.
Replying to Poppy:
...
Your Arceus-Fighting spread works much better than the variants I have tested. When I tested max special attack Arceus-Fighting, I used 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe. Your spread still takes considerable damage from ExtremeSpeed though. Anyway, I’ll be sure to mention your points in some form.
For the time being, Sableye won’t be mentioned as it’s obscure and a bit shaky. Gengar will follow too.
There is no need to worry about Forretress. The Toxic + Pain Split combo will be mentioned. I believe it’s already in position 12, but I assure you it will be emphasized.
I may be wrong about the usefulness of Physically Defensive Ho-Oh against Extreme Killer. Still, since you have to pair Physically Defensive Ho-Oh with another check, is it even worth a mention? SR makes it useless. Also, Sacred Fire only has a 50% chance to burn (Slightly less factoring accuracy). Regardless, I'll retest Ho-Oh using the given conditions.
Thanks Poppy for your input.
Replying to barry4ever:
...
Like you said, Pokemon such as CB Metagross and Gengar are quite obscure in Ubers. This combined with their shakiness really questions whether or not they warrant a mention.
Right now, it’s very likely there will be no specific mention. Unless QC seriously agrees to these Pokemon being mentioned as specific checks as well as others like Durant, Physically Defensive Gyarados, Chilan Berry users who can possibly OHKO Extreme Killer like Conkeldurr Low Kick, etc., they won’t be mentioned. There can only be so many “checks” before it becomes convoluted (Check Post #16 of this thread for more details if necessary).
Landorus-T is currently mentioned as a check to Choice Band Arceus (Not Extreme Killer) since it actually works providing he doesn’t switch into an ExtremeSpeed. Landorus-T has a 64.45% chance of being 2HKOed without SR by CB Extreme Killer’s ExtremeSpeed assuming no HP investment. For Extreme Killer checks, Intimidate is mentioned in general.
Since the Checks / Counters section seems to be fine for Extreme Killer now, I’ll just post any test results on request.
Is this analysis update ready for the last QC check? Or is there some last issue which has to be addressed? An example might include the Checks / Counters for Wallceus (Personally, I think it needs a touch more revamp. Thoughts?). Thanks.
Furai
Apr 1st, 2013 8:49:34 AM
Fire Blast > Overheat, AC of E-Killer
15:42) <&Furafk> oh yeah
(15:42) <&Furafk> trickroom
(15:42) <&Furafk> fire blast > overheat
(15:42) <&Furafk> on ekiller
(15:42) <&Furafk> y/n
(15:42) <06%Girl93> NO
(15:42) -ChanServ- trickroom moved to #ubers AOP list.
(15:42) <&Furafk> !k trickroom
(15:42) <%Girl93> you dont use overheat
(15:42) <%Girl93> !k X
(15:42) * Girl93 was kicked by X (Oops! (Girl93))
(15:42) * Girl93 (~liewwaiki@54FBF357.963855BD.FF090E6F.IP) has joined #ubers
(15:42) * X sets mode: +o Girl93
(15:42) <&Furafk> OOPS
(15:42) <&Furafk> js
(15:42) <&Furafk> fblast ekiller
(15:42) <&Furafk> is clutch.
(15:42) <&Furafk> dont hate.
(15:42) <+ficcion> lol
(15:43) <@Girl93> lose to dialga 9.9
(15:43) <@Girl93> ferro in rain lol
(15:43) <&Furafk> that's
(15:43) <&Furafk> ac
(15:43) <&Furafk> u weakass
(15:43) <+ficcion> lose to everything ever
(15:43) <@Girl93> u go cgange
(15:43) <@Girl93> ficcion is right
(15:44) <@Girl93> furafk loves fire balls too much
(15:44) <@Girl93> which doesnt even ko skarm after sr
(15:44) <+ficcion> anything with balls in em
(15:44) <+ficcion> (:
(15:44) <&Furafk> in sun it does js
(15:44) <@Girl93> :(
(15:44) <&Furafk> even w/ adamant
(15:44) <&Furafk> and 0 satk
(15:44) <&Furafk> G_G
(15:44) <@Girl93> :)
(15:44) <+ficcion> lol
(15:44) <&Furafk> trust me i know i did research after fite w/ dankey :D
(15:44) <+ficcion> so not on sdef skarm
(15:45) <&Furafk> on sdef skarm, sam.
(15:45) <+ficcion> lol
(15:45) <&Furafk> it was lo iirc
(15:45) <&Furafk> you need naughty if you run silk scarf i think
(15:45) <@Girl93> LO can use fire blast
(15:46) <@Girl93> but you use silk scarf or lefties/lum
(15:46) * @Girl93 slaps Furafk around a bit with a large trout
(15:46) <+ficcion> oh i guess it does
(15:46) <&Furafk> i like fblast more cos it doesn't completely donk u in rain
(15:46) <&Furafk> or in case
(15:46) <&Furafk> overheat doesn't ko
(15:46) <&Furafk> or smthin
(15:46) <@Girl93> :[
(15:46) <&Furafk> i think that -2 overheat doesn't kill skarmer
(15:46) <@Girl93> will the opponent use skarm + forry
(15:46) <&Furafk> so if it has sturdy
(15:46) <&Furafk> I USED THAT
(15:46) <&Furafk> COOL SHIT
(15:46) <@Girl93> unless they outpredict you
(15:46) <@Girl93> then
(15:46) <@Girl93> change it
(15:46) <&Furafk> yeah it's also
(15:46) <&Furafk> much safer
(15:46) <@Girl93> you can add in fire blast
(15:47) <@Girl93> just post in the arceus analysis lol
(15:47) <&Furafk> k
This is super serious and not related in any way to April Fools, js.
EDIT: Sableye should be mentioned as a counter to non-Fire Blast Extreme Killer and Choice Band Arceus if it gets tricked on
MatchMaster
Apr 3rd, 2013 5:26:08 PM
If no one minds, I'd like to suggest at least a mention of an EV spread of 49 HP / 252 Atk / 207 Spe with an Adamant Nature. This allows Arceus to just outpace Genesect, who you can't kill with ExtremeSpeed even if you're at +2 and Genesect is running a hasty nature, and Genesect is quite popular.
jackm
Apr 3rd, 2013 8:38:40 PM
Well, Genesect is usually a scarf variant, which means Arceus has no hope of outrunning it. Besides, even scarf Genesect doesn't pose a massive threat to EK on its own.
Superimp
Apr 12th, 2013 4:55:35 PM
Here are my replies to Poppy, MatchMaster, and Furai.
Replying to Poppy:
Quote:
CONTEXT: Poppy originally had a post that contained the final QC check as well as a quick comment about how mentioning Physically Defensive Ho-Oh was optional based on the length of the C&C section for Extreme Killer. However, he then neared his 2000th post...
Thanks for the QC check Poppy! As of the moment, I’m probably not going to specifically mention Physically Defensive Ho-Oh as the C&C section is huge enough as it is.
Replying to MatchMaster:
As jackm previously mentioned (Thanks for that by the way), the Genesect Speed benchmark isn’t really that notable given that Genesect is usually Choice Scarf (~77% usage as of March). However, you’re more then welcome to invest enough Speed to outspeed non-Choice Scarf Genesect if that is what you desire. In fact, such Speed investment could prove useful against Choice Band Genesect (~4% usage as of March) given that an unboosted Explosion can deal considerable damage:
Quote:
252 Atk Choice Band Genesect Explosion vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Normal: 329-388 (74.6 - 87.98%)
Hope this addresses your suggestion MatchMaster.
Replying to Furai:
OVERHEAT VS FIRE BLAST: WHICH IS BETTER?
To answer your concerns Furai over Overheat versus Fire Blast, I will be analyzing the relevant matchups where Overheat / Fire Blast can have a real and tangible effect against possible answers. All damage calculations have been obtained from Honkalculator 4000 unless manual calculation was required (i.e. calculations involving -2 SpA drops from Overheat, combination of attacks, etc.). Your Sableye concerns have been addressed in its respective section.
NOTE: Silk Scarf (or any item besides Life Orb like Lum Berry or Leftovers) Fire Blast assumes a neutral SpA nature. Silk Scarf (or any item including Life Orb) Overheat assumes a SpA lowering nature.
1. SKARMORY
EXCLUSIVE TO NON-RAIN: Life Orb Overheat > Life Orb Fire Blast > Silk Scarf Fire Blast > Silk Scarf Overheat
Here are the relevant calculations with the assumption that Skarmory is 252 HP / 4 Def+ / 252 SpD (and Sturdy not active):
0- SpA Life Orb Arceus-Normal Overheat vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Skarmory in sun: 411-484 (123.05 - 144.91%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0- SpA Life Orb Arceus-Normal Overheat vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Skarmory: 273-322 (81.73 - 96.4%) -- 56.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock on the switch (18.75% chance to OHKO after SR + one turn of Leftovers)
0- SpA Life Orb Arceus-Normal Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Skarmory in sun: 351-413 (105.08 - 123.65%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0- SpA Life Orb Arceus-Normal Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Skarmory: 234-276 (70.05 - 82.63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0- SpA Life Orb Arceus-Normal Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Skarmory in rain: 117-138 (35.02 - 41.31%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Arceus-Normal Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Skarmory in sun: 300-354 (89.82 - 105.98%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO (Guaranteed after SR on the switch; 75% chance to OHKO after SR + one turn of Leftovers)
0 SpA Arceus-Normal Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Skarmory: 200-236 (59.88 - 70.65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0- SpA Arceus-Normal Overheat vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Skarmory in sun: 316-372 (94.61 - 111.37%) -- 68.75% chance to OHKO (Guaranteed after SR + one turn of Leftovers)
0- SpA Arceus-Normal Overheat vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Skarmory: 210-248 (62.87 - 74.25%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Provided the weather is not rain, Skarmory is unable to safely switch into these coverage moves (although non-rain/sun Silk Scarf Overheat requires SR for a guaranteed 2HKO). However, such an attempt is rather prone to prediction given that an improperly timed attack will result in the loss of surprise, mediocre damage outside Skarmory and friends, and obviously no Swords Dance boost. Therefore, it is much important to hit Skarmory with these coverage moves after it has safely switched in (i.e. switches on Swords Dance, ExtremeSpeed, Shadow Claw, and assorted).
Unless your opponent has prior knowledge on your set, is attempting to take advantage of a possible double switch, or has godly prediction skills, it is highly unlikely that a safely switched in Skarmory will be switched out given that Overheat / Fire Blast has ~1% usage. Thus, whatever option does the most damage (ideally an OHKO) to a safely switched in Skarmory will generally be the superior choice.
Life Orb Overheat is probably the best option against Skarmory thanks to its damage and 90% accuracy. A sun-boosted Life Orb Overheat will OHKO even the bulkiest of Skarmory. Although non-rain/sun Life Orb Overheat has only an 18.75% chance to OHKO after SR + one turn of Leftovers, it is guaranteed should Skarmory switch into ExtremeSpeed after SR + one turn of Leftovers, or 93.75% should it switch into Shadow Claw after SR + one turn of Leftovers.
The next best option is Life Orb Fire Blast. Similarly to sun-boosted Overheat, Skarmory is easily OHKOed under sun (Though it only has a 75% chance to OHKO 252 HP / 252 SpD+ variants). However, although Fire Blast has more consistency in damage (Which helps out in prediction, though this is mitigated by the fact that these moves are ideally used when Skarmory is safely switched in), it has 85% accuracy and is noticeably weaker. For instance, non-rain/sun Life Orb Fire Blast is unable to OHKO after SR. If Skarmory previously switched into ExtremeSpeed after SR, it is 64.06%; if it previously switched into Shadow Claw after SR, it is 4.30%. Additionally, Life Orb Fire Blast is unable to 2HKO Skarmory under rain, which really hurts it viability.
Silk Scarf Fire Blast is considerably weaker than Life Orb Fire Blast (and Overheat), only having a 75% chance to OHKO after sun + SR + one turn of Leftovers. A non-rain/sun Silk Scarf Fire Blast is even weaker, unable to defeat Skarmory even after ExtremeSpeed + Fire Blast + SR + one turn of Leftovers. However, the consistent damage makes it the superior option over Silk Scarf Overheat. Although Silk Scarf Overheat does more damage (Making it better under sun as it will always OHKO after SR + one turn of Leftovers), has slightly more accuracy, and lacks the bulk loss, its damage boost isn’t really that great; non-rain/sun Silk Scarf Overheat has a pathetic 0.78% chance to defeat Skarmory after ExtremeSpeed + Overheat + SR + one turn of Leftovers. In this scenario, Skarmory could easily Roost off the full-powered Overheat –> this is impossible if Arceus carries Fire Blast.
2. SABLEYE (its special bulk is paltry; even with 252 HP / 4 SpD EVs, its special bulk is around Froslass level)
EXCLUSIVE TO SUN: Life Orb Overheat > Life Orb Fire Blast > Silk Scarf Fire Blast >>> Silk Scarf Overheat
Here are the relevant calculations with the assumption that Sableye is 252 HP / 252 Def+ / 4 SpD:
0- SpA Life Orb Arceus-Normal Overheat vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Sableye in sun: 291-343 (95.72 - 112.82%) -- 75% chance to OHKO (Guaranteed after SR)
0- SpA Life Orb Arceus-Normal Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Sableye in sun: 250-294 (82.23 - 96.71%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
0- SpA Life Orb Arceus-Normal Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Sableye: 166-196 (54.6 - 64.47%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Arceus-Normal Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Sableye in sun: 214-252 (70.39 - 82.89%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Arceus-Normal Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Sableye: 142-168 (46.71 - 55.26%) -- 14.06% chance to 2HKO (99.61%* chance to 2HKO after SR)
0- SpA Arceus-Normal Overheat vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Sableye in sun: 224-264 (73.68 - 86.84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (Unless Sableye uses Recover…)
* = not using Honkalculator -> manual
Unlike Skarmory’s scenario, it is incredibly important to hit Sableye on the switch with a sun-boosted Overheat / Fire Blast, given that a possible burn from a safely switched in Sableye isn’t exactly great (AKA prediction is mandatory). Thankfully, this isn’t too difficult as not only are these coverage moves extremely rare (~1% usage), but unlike Skarmory, many players believe an unboosted Extreme Killer is unable to OHKO Sableye on the switch.
As a result, it is critical that Sableye is taken out in one shot; if it is left alive, it can still switch out, attempt to Will-O-Wisp, or try its luck using Recover. Therefore, Life Orb Overheat is by far the best option against Sableye due to its 75% chance of OHKOing without any hazards (Guaranteed after SR) as well as its 90% accuracy. The next best option is Life Orb Fire Blast, as it has a 62.5% chance of OHKOing after SR and trades accuracy (85% vs. 90%) for consistent damage (Not that it matters when Life Orb Overheat outright OHKOes Sableye). Fire Blast also 2HKOes Sableye under “neutral” conditions (i.e. no weather, hail, or sandstorm) guaranteed, but Sableye is obviously left alive to do something (switch, Will-O-Wisp, etc.).
Silk Scarf Fire Blast isn’t really that great given its inability to OHKO Sableye after SR as well as the loss in bulk, though it will (hopefully) 2HKO. Silk Scarf Overheat on the other hand is horrible given that Sableye actually wins (i.e. survives the switch after SR, uses Recover, and then survives the -2).
NOTE: Physically defensive Sableye isn't exactly a counter to Extreme Killer given that it will always lose to standard Lum Berry Earthquake variants guaranteed after SR (Although it can still leave a parting gift in the form of a 56.25% chance burn); others like Skarmory, Wallceus, Giratina, and Lugia at least have phazing moves to guarantee Arceus’s exit unless He is the last Pokemon. A Will-O-Wisp miss is also devastating given Sableye’s average physical bulk (Around Garchomp level despite max investment), especially since a +2 Life Orb Earthquake has a 31.25% chance of OHKOing outright after SR and a turn of Leftovers. And of course, sun-boosted Life Orb Overheat incinerates Sableye thanks to its paltry special bulk.
Nevertheless, Sableye is still a very good answer to Extreme Killer; it is one of the stronger checks for sure. For the time being, it will be placed as either #1, #2, or #3 in the checks list, though I’m currently leaning towards #2 (i.e. in between Terrakion and Arceus-Ghost).
NOTE 2: Likewise, Sableye is not a counter to Bandceus given that getting Tricked a Choice Band (like you said) is highly undesirable. Otherwise, Sableye can easily tank Bandceus’s unboosted attacks, and thus will be grouped with the “Big Four” (Skarmory, Wallceus, Giratina, and Lugia) when detailing their performance against Bandceus.
3. BRONZONG (Levitate of course)
EXCLUSIVE TO NON-RAIN: Life Orb Overheat > Life Orb Fire Blast > Silk Scarf Fire Blast > Silk Scarf Overheat
Here are the relevant calculations with the assumption that Bronzong is 252 HP / 4 SpD:
0- SpA Life Orb Arceus-Normal Overheat vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Bronzong in sun: 364-429 (107.69 - 126.92%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0- SpA Life Orb Arceus-Normal Overheat vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Bronzong: 242-286 (71.59 - 84.61%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0- SpA Life Orb Arceus-Normal Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Bronzong in sun: 309-367 (91.42 - 108.57%) -- 50% chance to OHKO (87.5% chance to OHKO after SR on the switch)
0- SpA Life Orb Arceus-Normal Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Bronzong: 205-244 (60.65 - 72.18%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0- SpA Life Orb Arceus-Normal Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Bronzong in rain: 101-122 (29.88 - 36.09%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
0 SpA Arceus-Normal Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Bronzong in sun: 266-314 (78.69 - 92.89%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Arceus-Normal Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Bronzong: 178-210 (52.66 - 62.13%) -- 98.83% chance to 2HKO (Guaranteed after SR on the switch)
0- SpA Arceus-Normal Overheat vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Bronzong in sun: 280-330 (82.84 - 97.63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (25% chance to OHKO after SR on the switch)
0- SpA Arceus-Normal Overheat vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Bronzong: 186-220 (55.02 - 65.08%) – unable to 2HKO after SR
Obviously, none of these options really work under rain. However, “neutral” conditions (i.e. no weather, hail, or sandstorm) will work, though sun is obviously preferable. As always, any option that OHKOes a safely switched in Bronzong will be the best option due to minimizing prediction (~1% usage); 2HKOes will be subject to prediction for obvious reasons.
Life Orb Overheat is the best option as it always OHKOes Bronzong under sun, can still 2HKO on the switch under “neutral” conditions (Though this will be reliant on prediction given that it doesn’t OHKO), and has 90% accuracy. Life Orb Fire Blast can work with its more consistent damage (Which makes it better under 2HKOing scenarios like non-sun) but has 85% accuracy and is shakier in damage when considering sun.
Silk Scarf Fire Blast is a bit weak even under sun, but at least 2HKOes under “neutral” conditions; Silk Scarf Overheat actually fails to 2HKO Bronzong after SR during this scenario!
4. FERROTHORN
Life Orb Fire Blast > Life Orb Overheat > Silk Scarf Fire Blast > Silk Scarf Overheat
Here are the relevant calculations with the assumption that Ferrothorn is 252 HP / 208 SpD+:
0- SpA Life Orb Arceus-Normal Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 208+ SpD Ferrothorn in sun: 478-567 (135.79 - 161.07%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0- SpA Life Orb Arceus-Normal Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 208+ SpD Ferrothorn: 322-380 (91.47 - 107.95%) -- 43.75% chance to OHKO (81.25% to OHKO after Stealth Rock on the switch OR after 1 Layer of Spikes + one turn of Leftovers; guaranteed after 1 Layer of Spikes on the switch)
0- SpA Life Orb Arceus-Normal Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 208+ SpD Ferrothorn in rain: 156-187 (44.31 - 53.12%) -- 0.39% to 2HKO (23.44% to 2HKO after Stealth Rock on the switch OR after 1 Layer of Spikes + one turn of Leftovers; 79.69%* chance to 2HKO after 1 Layer of Spikes on the switch)
0- SpA Life Orb Arceus-Normal Overheat vs. 252 HP / 208+ SpD Ferrothorn in sun: 556-655 (157.95 - 186.07%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0- SpA Life Orb Arceus-Normal Overheat vs. 252 HP / 208+ SpD Ferrothorn: 369-437 (104.82 - 124.14%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0- SpA Life Orb Arceus-Normal Overheat vs. 252 HP / 208+ SpD Ferrothorn in rain: 182-218 (51.7 - 61.93%) – unable to 2HKO after SR on the switch OR after 1 Layer of Spikes on the switch
0 SpA Arceus-Normal Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 208+ SpD Ferrothorn in sun: 408-484 (115.9 - 137.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 SpA Arceus-Normal Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 208+ SpD Ferrothorn: 272-324 (77.27 - 92.04%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (31.25% chance to OHKO after 1 Layer of Spikes on the switch)
0 SpA Arceus-Normal Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 208+ SpD Ferrothorn in rain: 136-160 (38.63 - 45.45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
0- SpA Arceus-Normal Overheat vs. 252 HP / 208+ SpD Ferrothorn in sun: 428-504 (121.59 - 143.18%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0- SpA Arceus-Normal Overheat vs. 252 HP / 208+ SpD Ferrothorn: 284-336 (80.68 - 95.45%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock on the switch OR after 1 Layer of Spikes + one turn of Leftovers; 56.25% chance to OHKO after 1 Layer of Spikes on the switch).
0- SpA Arceus-Normal Overheat vs. 252 HP / 208+ SpD Ferrothorn in rain: 140-168 (39.77 - 47.72%) – lol
* = not using Honkalculator -> manual
Obviously, Ferrothorn hates Fire-type attacks under sun. Arceus can easily do whatever He wants as it switches in (Swords Dance, ExtremeSpeed, etc.), and then easily OHKO (~1% usage). He could even OHKO on the switch, though this requires some prediction. However, rain is a different story as Arceus is unable to OHKO, thus increasing the importance of prediction. Thus, whatever option can consistently deal the most damage under rain while still performing great under other weather will be the superior choice.
Life Orb Fire Blast is the best option given that it has sufficient power, deals consistent damage (Which matters under rain for prediction), and can possibly 2HKO Ferrothorn under rain after a lot of prior damage (To be honest, this is still a bit iffy). Life Orb Overheat is the next best option with its 90% accuracy and greater initial damage, though it sucks under rain (Of course, the subsequent -2 SpA drop can be taken advantage of through prediction, especially as rain Life Orb Overheat is unable to 2HKO after SR).
Silk Scarf Fire Blast can work despite the bulk loss, but has issues with damage under non-sun conditions. Silk Scarf Overheat is similar with slightly improved accuracy, but is even more pathetic under rain and has the -2 SpA drop problem.
5. FORRETRESS
Life Orb Fire Blast = Silk Scarf Fire Blast >>> Life Orb Overheat > Silk Scarf Overheat
Here are the relevant calculations with the assumption that Forretress is 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD+ (As otherwise it gets massacred):
0- SpA Life Orb Arceus-Normal Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Forretress in sun: 702-827 (198.3 - 233.61%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0- SpA Life Orb Arceus-Normal Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Forretress: 468-551 (132.2 - 155.64%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0- SpA Life Orb Arceus-Normal Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Forretress in rain: 234-276 (66.1 - 77.96%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Arceus-Normal Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Forretress in sun: 592-700 (167.23 - 197.74%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 SpA Arceus-Normal Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Forretress: 396-468 (111.86 - 132.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 SpA Arceus-Normal Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Forretress in rain: 196-232 (55.36 - 65.53%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0- SpA Life Orb Arceus-Normal Overheat vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Forretress in sun: 811-957 (229.09 - 270.33%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0- SpA Life Orb Arceus-Normal Overheat vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Forretress: 541-640 (152.82 - 180.79%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0- SpA Life Orb Arceus-Normal Overheat vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Forretress in rain: 265-317 (74.85 - 89.54%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock on the switch
0- SpA Arceus-Normal Overheat vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Forretress in sun: 624-736 (176.27 - 207.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0- SpA Arceus-Normal Overheat vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Forretress: 416-492 (117.51 - 138.98%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0- SpA Arceus-Normal Overheat vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Forretress in rain: 204-244 (57.62 - 68.92%) –66.80% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock on the switch (10.16% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock + two turns of Leftovers)
Fire Blast will always OHKO Forretress under sun / weatherless / hail / sandstorm, while still holding the ability to 2HKO under rain. Choose between Life Orb recoil and reduced bulk; it doesn’t matter.
Overheat will always OHKO Forretress under sun / weatherless / hail / sandstorm, but trades consistent damage (Which matters under rain for prediction given that it can’t reliably OHKO) for a bit more accuracy. To make matters worse, Silk Scarf Overheat has trouble 2HKOing Forretress under rain!
6. CHOICE BAND SCIZOR (Make sure to read the note at the end)*
Life Orb Overheat > Life Orb Fire Blast >>> Silk Scarf Fire Blast > Silk Scarf Overheat
Here are the relevant calculations with the assumption that Scizor is 200 HP / 252 SpD:
0- SpA Life Orb Arceus-Normal Overheat vs. 200 HP / 252 SpD Scizor in sun: 754-889 (227.79 - 268.58%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0- SpA Life Orb Arceus-Normal Overheat vs. 200 HP / 252 SpD Scizor: 499-593 (150.75 - 179.15%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0- SpA Life Orb Arceus-Normal Overheat vs. 200 HP / 252 SpD Scizor in rain: 250-296 (75.52 - 89.42%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
0- SpA Life Orb Arceus-Normal Fire Blast vs. 200 HP / 252 SpD Scizor in sun: 645-764 (194.86 - 230.81%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0- SpA Life Orb Arceus-Normal Fire Blast vs. 200 HP / 252 SpD Scizor: 432-510 (130.51 - 154.07%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0- SpA Life Orb Arceus-Normal Fire Blast vs. 200 HP / 252 SpD Scizor in rain: 213-255 (64.35 - 77.03%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Arceus-Normal Fire Blast vs. 200 HP / 252 SpD Scizor in sun: 552-652 (166.76 - 196.97%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 SpA Arceus-Normal Fire Blast vs. 200 HP / 252 SpD Scizor: 368-436 (111.17 - 131.72%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 SpA Arceus-Normal Fire Blast vs. 200 HP / 252 SpD Scizor in rain: 180-216 (54.38 - 65.25%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0- SpA Arceus-Normal Overheat vs. 200 HP / 252 SpD Scizor in sun: 580-684 (175.22 - 206.64%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0- SpA Arceus-Normal Overheat vs. 200 HP / 252 SpD Scizor: 384-456 (116.01 - 137.76%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0- SpA Arceus-Normal Overheat vs. 200 HP / 252 SpD Scizor in rain: 192-228 (58 - 68.88%) – 56.64% to 2HKO (Guaranteed after SR)
Choice Band Scizor is unable to safely switch into ANY Fire-type coverage move regardless of weather (Silk Scarf Overheat under rain requires SR though). However, this involves prediction (especially with Silk Scarf Overheat under rain), so it is much safer to deal with Scizor after it has safely switched in.
Once Scizor is safely switched in, its method of “checking” Arceus is to tank a hit and then retaliate with Superpower. Therefore, whatever option is capable of OHKOing Scizor outright will be the superior choice.
Obviously, Life Orb Overheat is the best option as it deals the most damage and has 90% accuracy. Life Orb Fire Blast is next, though it is unable to OHKO under rain after SR (You’re going to need some prior damage like an ExtremeSpeed on the switch) and has 85% accuracy.
Silk Scarf Fire Blast / Overheat is unable to OHKO Scizor under rain (Which means it gets to Superpower AKA fulfilling its purpose). However, Silk Scarf is probably better despite the bulk/accuracy loss given that it will at least always 2HKO; Overheat is not guaranteed unless there is SR. It is also prone to prediction after it has been used once due to the -2 SpA drop.
NOTE: Choice Band Scizor is a really flimsy check to Extreme Killer given that just like Choice Band Landorus-T, it is easy to wear down (No reliable recovery sucks). Unless it is perfectly conserved, it is highly unlikely that it will be able to tank a boosted coverage move. In fact, a +2 Life Orb Earthquake has a 31.25% chance to OHKO without any hazards. During testing, Scizor wasn’t very reliable; prior damage often arose due to entry hazards as well as answering miscellaneous threats (i.e. Lati@s).
Right now, I’m leaning towards no specific mention for Choice Band Scizor given its shakiness and that I’m trying to keep the C&C section readable.
SUMMARY:
If you’re using Life Orb, go with Overheat. Best way of taking down Skarmory, Sableye, Bronzong, and Choice Band Scizor. It also has 90% accuracy. However, if you’re more concerned with Ferrothorn and Forretress, Fire Blast is better as it does consistent damage under rain (However, Ferrothorn is still iffy and 85% accuracy could be better).
If you’re using Silk Scarf (or any item besides Life Orb like Lum Berry or Leftovers), go with Fire Blast. Make sure to have a neutral SpA nature too (Even though it will lower bulk).
Overheat without Life Orb sucks (at least relative to the other options). A neutral SpA nature might work, but the damage is roughly equivalent to Life Orb Fire Blast, just minus some bulk and the consistent damage.
-------------------------------
I’ll see what I can do about a specific mention for Fire Blast given its increased utility against threats such as Ferrothorn and Forretress. This has been somewhat addressed by previous notes, but mentioning Fire Blast probably won’t hurt.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat Update Analysis Notes
- Overheat is mentioned as being useful against Skarmory, but not (as useful) against Forretress and Ferrothorn
Item clarifications (i.e. Life Orb works best with Overheat, any other item works best with Fire Blast, etc.) will be mentioned if length permits.
Thanks for your suggestion Furai!
shrang
Apr 12th, 2013 9:20:09 PM
Quote:
Choice Band Landorus-T (He works much better here than against Extreme Killer) can switch into any move (ExtremeSpeed still hurts though; it can possibly 2HKO after SR). Trick doesn't matter for obvious reasons. Superpower only revenges somewhat weakened ones. Unable to heal.
Just a tiny note, I know that you've addressed Landorus-T before, but this bit needs a small correction. Assuming Stealth Rock is up on both sides, Landorus-T will always survive an Adamant +1 LO ExtremeSpeed at full health (minus SR), while Superpower will always OHKO 240 HP Extreme Killer. Superpower does 90.25% - 106.35%, while +1 LO ES does 74.40% - 87.47% (No chance at all to OHKO Landorus-T at full health with one round of SR). It's an extremely shaky counter, sure, but you do have that one-off stop to Extreme Killer if you're at full health.
Just another more important thing. I know and appreciate the fact that you take great pride and detail in your analyses, but try to make sure this analysis is done in shorter time than Latias's analysis (much shorter). Don't bother going into detail that is unnecessary. We don't want to wait 6 months for an analysis (albeit comprehensive) again, please!
