Tentacruel (Revamp) [QC 3/3]
 

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Tentacruel

[Overview]

<p>Despite what the ubiquity of its pre-evolution in the wild may suggest, Tentacruel is a highly valued Pokémon in the OU metagame as a defensive Rapid Spin user. Unlike other defensive spinners, Tentacruel is particularly stubborn to being worn down as it can take advantage of rain support to get 12.5% healing per turn with Rain Dish and Leftovers combined. When Tentacruel isn't required to spin away hazards, it can effectively spread status throughout the opponent's team by means of Toxic/Toxic Spikes and Scald, and tank hits thanks to solid HP and Special Defense stats, and a unique typing that grants it a plethora of resistances. However, its gelatinous exterior is vulnerable to Physical assaults due to an exceptionally low Defense stat for a support Pokemon. It is also hounded by a few weaknesses to common attacks such as Earthquake, Thunderbolt and Psyshock, which somewhat limit its defensive potential. Nonetheless, Tentacruel remains the Rapid Spin user of choice for many teams, whether they are utilising rain or not.</p>

[SET]
name: Support
move 1: Rapid Spin
move 2: Toxic / Toxic Spikes
move 3: Scald
move 4: Protect / Substitute
item: Leftovers
ability: Rain Dish
nature: Bold
evs: 252 HP / 236 Def / 20 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

• Its ability to Rapid Spin away hazards is cherished by both balanced and stall teams alike.
• Has the advantage of being able to auto-absorb Toxic Spikes unlike other users of Rapid Spin.
• Toxic is preferable on many teams whom benefit more from the immediate Poison. It allows Tentacruel to consistently beat most of the relevant spin blockers in the rain by inflicting Poison directly on the switch-in. It also makes Tentacruel more of a solid check to Keldeo and Volcarona, and also catches Pokémon who may try to tank a Scald, such as Lati@s, off-guard.
• Tentacruel still has a niche as one of the few viable users of the move Toxic Spikes, which is often preferable when running stall teams and/or using a sweeper that benefits from certain walls being crippled, particularly those with the ability Natural Cure.
• STAB Scald in the rain has the same Base Power as a STAB Hydro Pump outside of rain, plus it has has a 30% chance to Burn, which helps to dissuade things like Dragonite/Gyarados from getting a safe switch-in.
• Protect allows Tentacruel to stall for more Leftovers + Rain Dish recovery, essentially giving it 25% recovery for free when healing from the previous turn is also taken into account. It also allows you to scout Choice users and stop SubDisable Gengar from ruining your day.
• Substitute is a good alternative to Protect as it blocks status/Leech Seed, and most stall teams typically have trouble breaking Tentacruel's Substitutes. Note that Substitute should only be used with Toxic and not with Toxic Spikes.

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

• 20 Speed EVs allow it to outspeed max Speed neutral nature Breloom, Politoed and Metagross, and max Speed Timid Magnezone, plus the rare Specs Jellicent.
• 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 Spe with a Timid nature is a good alternative spread for Tentacruel, especially those utilising Substitute and Toxic. It allows it outspeed Adamant Dragonite/Gyarados and Poison them before they can attack/set up Dragon Dance.
• Tentacruel can run a secondary attack in place of Protect or Substitute, though keep in mind that this will have an impact on its defensive potential. Ice Beam can do decent damage to Dragons on the switch-in and Sludge Bomb can hit Breloom/Celebi hard.
• Scald can be replaced by Hidden Power [Fire] if utilising Tentacruel on a sun team, as it 2HKOs Ferrothorn and OHKOs Scizor/Genesect in the sun. Running Ice Beam in tandem with it is necessary though, otherwise Tentacruel will be complete fodder for Dragons. Remember to adjust the EVs to 252 HP / 232 Def / 24 Spe if using Hidden Power [Fire], due to the reduction in Speed IVs.
• Blizzard is viable over Ice Beam if Tentacruel is used in Hail, though keep in mind that the passive damage will cause its longevity to be compromised.
• Hydro Pump could be used over Scald for more power, though the low PP and Accuracy is an issue.
• You'll generally want to run Tentacruel on a rain team as it activates Rain Dish; Tentacruel has no recovery outside of Leftovers otherwise, hence Politoed is a great teammate. Politoed also benefits from Tentacruel's ability to absorb Toxic Spikes.
• If you run Toxic Spikes, make sure you pair it with teammates that can benefit from them, e.g. SubCM Latias, QD Volcarona, Taunt Tornadus-T etc.
• Gothitelle or Dugtrio can both make nice partners for Tentacruel using Toxic Spikes, as they can trap and KO the non-Levitating Poison types that auto-absorb them.
• Ferrothorn is a solid defensive partner for Tentacruel. It can complete the trifecta of hazards with Stealth Rock/Spikes/Leech Seed, and has complimentary resistances.
• If running Tentacruel on a sun team, Volcarona makes for a decent partner as it greatly appreciates the removal of hazards from the field, and can take advantage of Toxic Spikes when it comes to breaking through walls like Chansey/Jellicent.
• Teammates that can deal with the things that Tentacruel lures in the most are greatly appreciated. Mamoswine is a fine example, as it easily deals with the Grass types that come in such as Breloom/Celebi, and can revenge kill Lum DDNite, SubCM Latias and Thundurus-T, all of whom may try to set up on Tentacruel. Mamoswine also packs a useful Electric immunity, which it can utilise to get a free switch-in on Pokémon such as Jolteon and Zapdos.

[Other Options]

• Tentacruel can run an offensive Rapid Spin set holding a Life Orb with a Timid nature and an EV spread of 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe. However, Starmie mostly outclasses Tentacruel in this role due to having higher Sp. Attack, Speed and access to Recover, as well as a superior offensive movepool. The surprise value does give it a small degree of viability though.
• The ability Liquid Ooze is an option to screw over Ferrothorn using Leech Seed, though Rain Dish is a superior option even if you are not running Tentacruel on a rain team, as you'll be able to take advantage of the rain provided by your opponent's Politoed.
• Knock Off provides interesting utility, especially for stall teams. However, it faces tough competition for a moveslot.
• Confuse Ray is an option to deal more damage if you're feeling lucky, though ideally Tentacruel shouldn't have to give up a moveslot for it when it has more consistent moves to run.
• Haze could be used to prevent things from setting up on it and ruin Baton Pass chains, though it doesn't quite have the bulk to be able to utilise it effectively.
• Magic Coat is a gimmicky move that could be used to block Taunt / status moves. However, gimmicks generally aren't considered good, especially not in OU.
• Acid Spray can be used to force things out, though even to a target with -2 Sp. Defense, Tentacruel still isn't very threatening offensively.
• Tentacruel can actually go down the sweeping route with an Adamant Nature and a moveset of Substitute/Swords Dance/Waterfall/Poison Jab. Despite a below average base 70 Attack stat, it will still hit hard after a Swords Dance or two. It can easily set up on a large variety of Pokémon, and Water/Poison provides surprisingly good neutral coverage. However, it faces difficulties with some of the bulkier Steels such as Ferrothorn and Skarmory, the latter of which can easily phase it out. It is also easily revenge killed by offensive teams due to its good but not great base 100 Speed. Still, with some support it can be a fantastic check to both balanced and stall teams. As with the other sets, SubSD Tentacruel appreciates rain support to extend its longevity.

[Checks and Counters]

• If the set is running Toxic Spikes as opposed to Toxic, anything immune to them that doesn't take too much damage from Scald can be considered a counter. Dragonite, Gyarados, Hydreigon, Lati@s and Reuniclus are examples of this. The former two need to be wary about directly switching in though, due to the risk of a potential Burn. However, a Lum Berry or Substitute can be used to get around this once they're in. Although not immune to Toxic Spikes, Kyurem-B is another example of a dangerous threat that can easily take out Tentacruel, and with Substitute it can avoid status when it is active.
• Poison Heal Breloom is one of the best Tentacruel counters as it benefits from Poison and is immune to Scald burns, whilst it can use Tentacruel as setup fodder. However, be aware that it is still vulnerable to Scald burns if it has not yet activated its Toxic Orb. Celebi is in a very similar position, as it can mitigate the effect of status due to Natural Cure, and can hit hard with a STAB Psychic. Amoonguss auto-absorbs Toxic Spikes and takes practically no damage from Scald, though cannot threaten it offensively outside of Sleep from Spore. Venusaur can also remove Toxic Spikes, set up Growth and mitigate potential Burn damage with the recovery from Giga Drain.
• Toxicroak is completely immune to everything in Tentacruel's arsenal, and even removes the Toxic Spikes that Tentacruel may have set up. Although Tentacruel resists its STABs, Toxicroak can overpower it after boosting its Attack.
• SubCM Latias and SubCM Keldeo aren't bothered by anything Tentacruel can throw at them, and can set up on it easily so long as it does not get poisoned on the switch-in if Tentacruel runs Toxic. Reuniclus does not have to worry about status at all, thanks to Magic Guard - it takes menial damage from Scald, so has no danger of setting up. CM Alakazam is in the same boat to an extent, though it takes more damage from Scald prior to boosting.
• Starmie can readily spin away the Toxic Spikes that Tentacruel worked so hard to get up, and can force it out with the threat of STAB Psyshock or Thunder(bolt). Natural Cure means that getting poisoned on the switch-in isn't too worrying.
• If it lacks Toxic, Jellicent has no problem coming in to block Tentacruel's Rapid Spin. It can beat it 1v1 with Will-o-Wisp and Recover.
• If Sunlight is the current weather, Heatran can come in on Tentacruel with impunity and nail it with a Super Effective Earth Power, or just fry it with a double STAB Fire Blast.
• Pokémon with a powerful STAB Earthquake, such as Garchomp, Landorus-T and Mamoswine, will easily force Tentacruel out, though they cannot switch in safely due to the threat of a Burn from Scald (plus the latter two are hit Super Effectively).
• Gastrodon can switch in on any of Tentacruel's moves, barring Toxic, and can demolish Tentacruel with Earthquake or Earth Power.
• Zapdos and Magnezone can withstand a Scald and start firing off strong Thunders. The former will easily win 1v1 with some SDef investment and Roost. Despite taking decent damage from Scald, Thundurus-T will force Tentacruel out, giving it the potentially perfect opportunity to set up a Nasty Plot or Agility.
• SubDisable Gengar is immune to everything Tentacruel has bar Scald, so once in it can easily set up a Substitute, Disable it and Shadow Ball it to death. However, a smart player can get around this by using Protect on a predicted Disable. Gengar also brings spin blocking to the table, which prevents Tentacruel from utilising its most defining trait. LO Gengar with Thunder will quickly take out any Tentacruel that comes in trying to sponge a Shadow Ball.
• Gothitelle can switch in on Tentacruel with minimal risk, trap it due to Shadow Tag and KO it with it STAB Psychic/Psyshock.
• Tentacruel is even a check to itself, though in a 1v1 situation this would come down to a Scald war, and isn't really recommended unless you literally have no other options.

Very WIP, but I wanted to get the very basic format down first. Anyway, here's a brief reasoning for including these sets:

The first two sets are basically the same as those in the original analysis. However, I've slashed Toxic with Toxic Spikes on the Support set, as it's quite a popular choice over Toxic Spikes in BW2 due to being much more reliable, and stall being much less relevant.

I've decided to remove the Offensive set for now, as I don't see why it would get used over Starmie in the current metagame. I've replaced it with an admittedly slightly weird set, but Tentacruel can function superbly as a spinner for sun teams that doubles as a check to rain teams - being able to abuse both the sun and rain. I've only included Toxic as sun teams will want the immediate Poison on things like Politoed, though I may slash Toxic Spikes with it. Notably, HP [Fire] allows it to easily 2HKO Ferrothorn in the sun, something it usually struggles to deal with outside of lucky Scald burns. Ice Beam is preferred over Toxic as otherwise you'll be begging for Dragons to come and set up all over you, though Protect could still be used to gain extra Leftovers recovery.

Obviously, these sets are far from final and I'm open to any and all feedback.

On support tentacruel, I would mention substitute in AC as an option over t-spikes and toxic. I have used it with much success in the past. That way you can burn stall things to death a lot easier than if you used the sub-toxic set because you have protect in the moveset. It might seem like it makes it an inferior sub-toxic tentacruel, but its not, its simply an option over toxic or t-spikes to provide a different kind of support. I think its a solid AC option, at worst OO.

also blizzard probably needs mention in OO for use on hail teams

The SunCruel set and the Support set look extremely similar at the moment; so much that an AC mention/paragraph of Tentacruel performing well on Sun teams and can use HP Fire would suffice in this case. Obviously I haven't really determined the difference yet; however, all I know now is that both are much similar down to the natures, EVs, and three moves. Take that as you will.

Yeah it was something I took into consideration. For now I've decided to differentiate them due to appearing on vastly different team styles, though I may try to find a way of merging them onto one set without it being too seamless (as HP [Fire] will never be used on a rain team).

For the record, RainVolc was kept separate from the other offensive Volcarona sets on the analysis despite only differing by the inclusion of Hurricane. While this analysis doesn't necessarily need to follow that precedent, it's worth mentioning to justify why it is separate for now.

I don't see why SunCruel doesn't have Toxic Spikes slashed. I personally think that this you could easily combine SubToxic and the Standard to just do this:

[SET]
name: Support
move 1: Rapid Spin
move 2: Toxic Spikes / Toxic
move 3: Scald
move 4: Protect / Substitute
item: Leftovers
ability: Rain Dish
nature: Bold
evs: 252 HP / 236 Def / 20 Spe

with a mention of sludge bomb, ice beam & blizzard in AC. I mean several people use just toxic + protect and both the sets play the same basically.. just a thought

i'm gonna have to throw in my agreement here; substitute and toxic do completely different things for cruel but the sets still aren't all that different. also toxic spikes really suck right now and the number of teams that can benefit notably from their usage is, in my experience, quite low - i tend to use protect/toxic on my occasional weatherless cruels, and always subtox in rain (cause FUK FERRO). i haven't run tspikes in eons and i don't think i'm about to start running them now lol

i guess it boils down to how long the analysis will be if the sets are merged - they don't play completely the same way, and giving each one its own paragraph under a single set might be a bit unrealistic, so perhaps it's more efficient to keep them separate. but the similarity of the sets is definitely significant

On SunCruel, wouldn't Liquid Ooze be better than Rain Dish? Considering Tentacruel with HP Fire and Ice Beam can't do much of anything to a Rain Team (lots of Flyers, Steels, and Toxiroaks makes stalling out with T-spikes hard too), getting to make BU Conkeldurr, Leech Seed Ferrothorn, and the occasional Giga Drain users lose their health makes it a lot easier for Tenta imo to stall out the opponent. Rain Dish is kinda useless on a Pokemon that wants to be used in the sun...

Keep Rain Dish on the sun cruel, it is debatable that Liquid Ooze is useful but having Rain Dish is without any doubt great against rain. If you were using Kingdra on a non-Rain team I'd hope you'd use Swift Swim on it.

I agree that Suncruel should be OO, it's very uncommon and pretty simple to throw together using the standard sets. This may sound odd to some but I would throw T spikes in there as well. There are really that useless, if Alkines short explanation isn't pleasing enough I'll be glad to expand.

this has been discussed elsewhere but i can't remember where, so i'll bring up the key points:



1) rain dish is strong. incredibly strong. tentacruel is a good rain check because of rain dish, and frankly rain dish alone. it can't hurt most rain teams outright barring burn trolling or toxic spam, but rain dish makes it incredibly difficult to kill (barring stab ground or electric but honestly if you can't see that coming from a mile away you need to practice more). having that anchor for rain is very powerful. tentacruel cannot take specs hydro pumps in rain repeatedly unless it has rain dish. it WILL get worn down.



2) the matchups that are actually affected by liquid ooze tend to be affected by it in no major capacity; ie where liquid ooze would take effect, it generally doesn't change the outcome of the matchup. it's also worth mentioning that, generally, taking hits to inflict liquid ooze damage becomes harder with no recovery from *cough rain dish cough*. if you're in sun (meaning no rain dish recovery), you're packing a sun-boosted hidden power fire, which means all the common users of draining moves are getting hit hard by you anyway.

- drain punchers: conkeldurr does not break through tentacruel easily. with a fighting resist and invested bulk, it needs several boosts to hurt you. either way, cruel is not a great solution to conk in the first place - it risks giving conk a guts boost and will usually take a while to kill it. they aren't great solutions to one another. as for the occasional bulky breloom running drain punch, cruel loses to it outright - with toxic orb you can't burn it or toxic it, so it gets free time to swat at you or set up. liquid ooze does not change that.

- leech seeders: ferrothorn is the big one, and tbh you aren't gonna have a fun time against this no matter what you do, unless you run substitute. if you don't have activated rain dish, you still die slowly to leech seed, it just means ferro dies slowly and annoyingly with you. ferro still has the edge cause it's setting up spikes on you (spinning repeatedly means you die even faster cause iron barbs be trollin), unless you have sunboosted hp fire in which case remind me why ferrothorn was a problem to begin with?

as for random giga drains, the real problem is that either 1) they're weak as shit cause they're coming from opposing bulky grasses, meaning that honestly one hit of liquid ooze does NOTHING compared to the rain dish recovery you could be getting, and 2) if they're strong and invested, often there will be other coverage moves to hurt tentacruel, and you'll regret not having rain dish recovery when you have to start taking those. take RP genesect for example - sure you can eat a boosted giga drain and troll it with liquid ooze, but it's gonna break out a thunderbolt on you and you're gonna be wishing you had rain dish to stay alive. same with volcarona or such.



in general, there is no reason for tentacruel to NOT run rain dish. even in weatherless, even in sand (protip: don't run cruel in sand, seriously just run starmie), you should always run rain dish, never liquid ooze. it's not that liquid ooze is useless, but in general, you stand to gain a lot more from rain dish.

I am very aware, that this (my OP on another site that shows real attempts to let this be known as viable) was a set I created during early B/W, not B/W2.

In early B/W, nobody was believing that it worked. Either I was battling 50+ people a day that were lame, or it did actually work.

Would like someone that is actually noteworthy around here to play test that for a bit. I will do the same (again for the B/W2 era).

Trust me, it's worth using still.

I won't press the issues on this one, please though, someone who might be worth something around Smogon, at least try it out one time.

Tentacruel @ Expert Belt
Nature: Modest
Ability: Liquid Ooze/Rain Dish
EVs: 36 HP/252 Def/220 SpAtk
Moveset:
-Acid Spray
-Giga Drain
-Surf/Scald
-Hidden Power Fire/Ice Beam

OK, I've had a think about it and decided SunCruel wasn't really worth having a separate analysis. I'm still going to mention its potential in sun as an OO though.

I think SubToxic should be kept separate due to running a different nature + EV spread, and hence plays in a slightly different way.

Actually changed my mind; I'll merge that too. I'll mention in the AC that Timid with an EV spread of 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 Spe is a good alternative if you run SubToxic.

Apologies for the double post - just letting you guys know I have done most of the bullet points for the analysis. Kept everything under one set as Tentacruel only really has one role in BW2. Don't hesitate to point anything out if I've missed something/made a mistake/said something stupid etc.

@Joel: Interesting set, however I don't believe it deserves its own analysis. I've given Acid Spray a mention as an OO, though.

Personally prefer Toxic getting first slash over Toxic Spikes due to spinners / Venusaur (on sun), Tentacruel (on Rain) being so common, and Toxic Spikes not being quite as useful (imo) as they were. Would be interested in other QC members opinions on this.


QC Approved 1/3

I'm not a QC member but I agree with ginganinja; Toxic Spikes are pretty bad atm. Toxic should probably get the first slash in the second slot.

Also, you might want to mention Pokemon that can beat Lum DD Nite, since Tentacruel really struggles with it. Maybe something like Mamoswine would work?

wheres my offensive tenta >:|

http://www.smogon.com/media/contrib/contrib_qc.png

QC Approved 2/3

get it on site plz

no sub toxic????

Also note that Toxic allows Tentacruel to be a decent check to Keldeo & Volcarona, while catching mons like Latias off-guard.

~ Set comments should mention how Tentacruel is a consistent Rain spinner that pretty much beats all relevant spinblockers in the rain, esp. with Toxic > Toxic Spikes.

Also add that Protect allows Tentacruel to win against SubDisable Gengar more readily than those without.

shrang actually tested a Sub SD set and it was hilariously effective. Jellicent & Empoleon doesn't "completely wall" them, since against Jellicent Tentacruel can set up to +6, whereas +2 Waterfall actually hurts Empoleon after Rain boost.

Also finish the Checks and Counters section :0

Updated with the completed Checks and Counters section - massive apologies for the delay, I've just been so busy with uni work as of late.

I am strongly considering changing the order of Toxic Spikes / Toxic, given the latter's popularity. I initially ordered it as such due to Toxic Spikes being a niche of Tentacruel, though as it has been pointed out multiple times, Toxic is often far more practical in this metagame. I'd like to get a few more opinions on the matter first if possible though.

That sounds quite interesting actually, heh. I've never actually seen a SubSD Tentacruel in the 5th Gen as of yet, so I don't really have anything to go on. I may give the set more of a highlight in the OO section, as it may in fact work well but hasn't caught on enough for it to be worth its own analysis.

Quality Checks & Counters! I have more to add, though:

~ Gastrodon can switch in on any moves barring Toxic and can demolish Tentacruel with EQ / Earth Power.

~ Toxicroak can switch in on anything and start setting up

~ Add SubCM Keldeo with Latias.

~ Mention that Gengar can use Thunder to quickly dispatch Tentacruel. Add Jellicent & Sableye, too, since they prevent Tentacruel from spinning if it lacks Toxic.

~ Either on your Sun description or Breloom / Celebi, mention how Venusaur can set up Growth on Tentacruel / absorb Toxic Spikes

~ In the same description with Dragonite, include Kyurem / Kyurem-B as other scary threats that can set up on Tentacruel

~ Add Garchomp to your Ground-types; Dugtrio can trap and finish off Tentacruel at ~50% health

~ Add Zapdos and Magnezone alongside Thundurus-T; with Roost and some special-defense investments, Zapdos can shrug off Scald burns if it comes to that. Magnezone can start firing off strong Thunders.

~ Add Gothitelle, a Pokemon that can easily switch in with low risk and consistently eliminate Tentacruel.

~ Remove Sigilyph and SDef Jirachi; Sigilyph is not relevant in OU, and Jirachi does not enjoy getting burned.

Also please rephrase / make changes that I suggested here.

Finished adding the new changes.

EDIT: I have been reliably informed that Knock Off is in fact legal with Rain Dish, so I've edited that into the OO.

Also add that Protect allows Tentacruel to win against SubDisable Gengar more readily than those without.

- I know that you mentioned this in Checks & Counters, but I'd like you to inform the readers in the set comment as well.

Also no mention of Jellicent on Checks & Counters is absurd, imo, since it's probably your best chance at spinblocking Tentacruel without Toxic.

Otherwise, amazing work!

QC Approved (3/3)

I could swear that I already mentioned Jellicent... turns out not x_x

Anyway, onto the write-up!

Jellicent doesn't actually counter Tentacruel though. If Tentacruel has Toxic, it's plain losing, while if it has Toxic Spikes, it easily sets up Toxic Spikes in Jellicent's face, then switches out to a Pokemon that forces pringles out. Next time it comes in, it's screwed. It's kind of like how Giratina doesn't counter Forretress, since Forry just set hazards up in its face and you end up in a losing position anyway. I guess you could say "If Jellicent has a Toxic Spikes absorber on its team (opposing Tentacruel, Toxicroak, Nidoqueen)", then it's a good check, but otherwise, it doesn't work.