Counter that Pokemon - Mk III [Team 2 won!]
Counter that Pokemon - Mk III
--- Approved by Birkal and ginganinja | co-lead by NixHex ---
Welcome everyone to the new edition of the Counter that Pokemon project! Last time it was a great success, spawning some interesting discussion and inspiring new ideas. The metagame has changed quite a bit, since Genesect is with us no more, but we do have new and dangerous threats to counter, namely Garchomp and Kyurem-Black! That said, I'm going to keep this boring introduction short and explain a little better what the CtP project is.
Q: What are we going to do?
A: The idea is to build two teams that, while not necessarily very good in general, are designed to counter each other to the best of their abilities. We will choose the pokes that will compose the two teams in an alternated fashion: if "1" represents a pick for the Team 1, and "2" a pick for the Team 2, the picks will look like this: 1 - 2 - 2 - 1 - 1 - 2 - 2 - 1 - 1 - 2 - 2 - 1, so except from the first and the last choice, each team will select two pokes consecutively, attempting to neuter the portion of the other team already known, pose new threats for the opponents, and avoid creating excessive weaknesses that could be easily exploited later. The project will end with a battle between the two teams, to "determine" which team countered "better" the opponent.
Q: How does the picking process work?
A: There are two phases when picking a pokemon for any of the two teams: a discussion phase and a voting phase. In the first phase you propose new sets, give feedback on others' proposals, and generally discuss what direction we should follow for the team that's picking currently. The second phase is a single bold voting, where everyone can express his or her preference for the set he or she thinks is best suited for the team. The discussion phase will last roughly 48-72 hours for each pokemon we to pick to allow everyone to propose a set and comment on the already listed ones; the voting will be faster, with a duration of 24-48 hours (I'll adjust the durations according to participation / relevance of discussion / other factors).
Current state of the project: Final Match [see post #844]:
Team 1 (The Great Mighty Doom): http://sprites.pokecheck.org/icon/646-black.png http://sprites.pokecheck.org/icon/479-wash.png http://sprites.pokecheck.org/icon/645.png http://sprites.pokecheck.org/icon/214.png http://sprites.pokecheck.org/icon/473.png http://sprites.pokecheck.org/icon/392.png
Team 2 (Melee Mewtwo): http://sprites.pokecheck.org/icon/485.png http://sprites.pokecheck.org/icon/647.png http://sprites.pokecheck.org/icon/251.png http://sprites.pokecheck.org/icon/635.png http://sprites.pokecheck.org/icon/212.png http://sprites.pokecheck.org/icon/227.png
Miscellanea / CtP FAQ
How does a good submission look like?
There are many examples of awesome submissions, with different presentation, reasoning, and whatever else. Just lurk a bit the old CtP thread to have a rough idea and you should be fine.
My submission stops cold all the pokes of the opposing team! It's perfect!
Maybe. Or maybe it's just overspecialized for the current lineup of the enemy team, and opens much worse scenarios in case the enemy exploits your careless picking. We've seen quite a bit of those proposals in the past, including Signal Beam Cresselia just to counter a Meloetta (no offense intended, but that was just a terrible submission). Those kind of entries are just bad, so please make sure to think a bit more before postng if your idea resembles that. CrackinSkulls gave us awesome guidelines in this perspective, so I'm quoting his post here:
Please let me put emphasis on this: NO!!! The most important part of the discussion phase is, well, discussion and feedback on others' sets. The old thread was full of awesome posts, people discussed, changed their sets according to feedback, and it was just a nice, friendly and inspiring environment. This is what we aim to have, and hopefully with your help we'll obtain something great like that.
You talked about teams a million of times till now. Do we need to split ourselves in two teams?
Nope. You're free to contribute to the discussion while picking pokes for Team 1, 2, or both, as you please. I encourage contributing actively for both teams, since it makes the project funnier and avoid the risks of a team running out of proposals / submissions / discussion.
IMPORTANT! Team 1 has a HUGE advantage! Picking last is gamebreaking!
This concern is perfectly justified. In fact, the last CtP was heavily affected from this "asymmetry": Team 2 built a very good offensive team, but failed to see his own weakness to hazards and inability to break through sturdy defensive walls. This resulted into Team 1 picking Deoxys-D as last member, and a quite easy victory in the final battle. This should be an example for us: we need to avoid being weak to a particular strategy when building teams (Team 2 in particular, since it's most exposed to surprise counter-picks). While this thing may be seen as a flaw in the CtP process, I'm persuaded that, while it gives an advantage to Team 1, it can be handled quite well being aware of that, and the fact that Team 2 is harder to build should be an incentive to more experienced or inspired battlers / builders to participate.
Okay, now you can start posting sets for Team 1's first pokemon, and discussing the sets posted by other users. Again, feel free to PM/VM me for any question regarding this project!
Swords Dance Lucario
move 1: Swords Dance
move 2: Close Combat
move 3: ExtremeSpeed
move 4: Crunch
item: Life Orb
evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Yeah, Swords Dance Lucario. This thing is a monster once it sets up, 2HKOing even Skarmory with Close Combat. It only needs to set up once before it can mop up pretty much any team in OU. Close Combat is obligatory (and powerful) STAB, Crunch gives it great coverage, and Extremespeed provides an extra priority move because fuck Mach Punch. I chose Crunch over Ice Punch/Bullet Punch because Ice Punch leaves it open to Jellicent and bulky Psychic-types, who are arguably harder to kill than Gliscor, Dragonite or Gengar.
name: SubPetaya Empoleon
move 1: Surf
move 2: Ice Beam
move 3: Agility
move 4: Substitute
item: Petaya Bery
evs: 12 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA / 240 Spe
A classic from DPP. With the kind-of-sort-of-nobody-has-really-noticed-me recent release of Petaya Berry in BW2 this set has become possible again. The point of the set is to abuse that awesome typing to set up an Agility (or two if your OP doesn't know what he is doing) to outspeed +1 Gyarados and then spam 2-3 Substitutes to activate Petaya Berry and Torrent to get a double +1 for your STAB attack. Once their speedy ScarfMon is gone (and Sub prevents them from switching in directly) this thing can clean up even slightly weakened Stall teams.
Hydreigon @ Life Orb
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
- Draco Meteor
- Fire Blast
Throwing a bit of a curve ball here! Credit where credit is due. Anyway, this set is extremely underrated and gives Hydreigon an additional role as a teamplayer rather than purely as a sweeper or wallbreaker. It would be interesting to see this set in the spotlight, and it adds an extra dynamic to counter-that-team element. How do you "counter" something that can both hit very hard and give its team a brief momentum boost with no drawbacks? Only time will tell. I think this set is sure to spice things up a bit, and also promote interesting discussion on potential strategical uses of Tailwind (without necessarily basing a team around it, I must add).
Move 1: Agility
Move 2: Thunderbolt
Move 3: Grass Knot
Move 4: Hidden Power Ice
Item: Life Orb
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe0
Basically, set up on something you can force out, and go to town with +2 Speed and gargantuan 145 base SpA. This set, in my opinion, is better than the nasty plot set, due to the fact that its speed is not quite high enough to sweep. Agility fixes this problem. Thunderbolt is its main STAB move, which will hit very hard. Its good coverage with Grass Knot and HP Ice creates a terrifying sweeper!
32 Atk/224 SpA/252 Spe
(Now the evs can be swapped however but the attack should stay just because of the fact that sucker punch is an ohko on standard latias.)
-Night daze/Dark pulse
Anyway, with no real "counters" until the illusion is up (sans priority), zoroark could allow some serious mind games. For example, one sends in a pokemon. Let's say the opponent sees a sizzor with them having one of the latis out. They wouldn't know what was what. This could allow some interesting mind games. If they swap and it's a Scizzor, they could get smacked by a hard pursuit. But if they stay in, a hard BP but a ko with hp fire. However, if it's Zorro, the threat of stab pursuit along with an ohko with sucker punch is eminent. This is just One scenario where Zorro can mess with the enemy.
Terrakion @ Rock Gem
252 Atk / 252 Spe / 4 Hp
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge
- Swords Dance
One of OU's most powerful mons, SubSD Rock Gem Terrakion. Few things can switch into this beast and not get demolished. Sub eases prediction and prevents Terrakion from being easily revenged by Mach punch or Bullet Punch. Close Combat + Ston Edge give fantastic coverage together. Swords Dance and Rock Gem allow Terrakion to smash its counters such. The oh-so-bulky Slowbro, for example has a 75% chance to be OHKOed after SR at +2. This 'mon is a great first pick - it's fast, powerful and has few counters; factors that immediately force team 2 to pick more defensively.
Breloom @ Fighting Gem
252 Atk / 252 Spe / 4 Hp
- Mach Punch
- Bullet Seed
- Swords Dance
Nominating one of the top dogs of the metagame right now, techniloom. This is kind of a underrated, but in my opinion the best breloom set. With a fighting gem equipped, Breloom is a bitch to counter. Fighting gem allows breloom to bust through a usual check, such as latios, and than open the door for a easy sweep. I think this would be a great first pick because its not easy to counter, and even harder so with a fight gem.
I don't think showing Gems and this kind of surprise gift is that good, but well.
I chose a pokemon among the best team helpers, with a good firepower. Basically a pokemon that is predictable, but still, really hard to counter.
http://www.pokemonelite2000.com/gbc121.gif @ http://serebii.net/itemdex/sprites/lifeorb.png
120 HP / 172 SpA / 216 Spe
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Rapid Spin
This version of Starmie can survive a CB Ttar Pursuit, has a good chance to 0HKO versions with low HP/SpD (when they invest in Speed for Jellicent for instance) and 2HKO anyway. This means, that it leaves a free room to a sweeper because CB Pursuiters are easy set-up fodders. It's almost a pokemon you don't want to counter.
There isn't much an enemy can do against this pokemon, anyway you can still spin. Countering this pokemon would mean having a Pursuiter (and there is no Pursuiter that can really kill a Starmie easily), or a Spin Blocker. Anyway, if Starmie can't spin, the star can still be a huge threat to almost anything with the coverage and the decent SpA.
The main change is that this Breloom turns from a mid-game sweeper that punches holes in teams to a late-game sweeper that obliterates teams once its counters are out of the game.
This Breloom hates defensive pokemon that it can't spore. This means two things:
1) The opposing team should only have 1 defensive poke left when Breloom tries to sweep as Breloom can only spore one poke (the defensive one).
2) Breloom hates defensive pokes faster than it. Jirachi and Gliscor are huge pains in the ass as they're both faster. Gliscor is also immunte to status.
Anyway, onto my submission for the initial poke:
http://sprites.pokecheck.org/i/645.gif@ Life Orb
252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
- Earth Power
- Focus Blast
- Hidden Power Ice
- Rock Polish
We all know what this guy does. Stab + Life Orb + Sheer Force gives it more than double stab on Earth Power. It OHKOs most of the meta game even without rocks and anything it can't kill dies with multiple SR switch ins. It's "slow" by current metagame standards but it's important to keep the speed at a maximum to outpace +Spe natured base 100s like non-boosted/scarfed Mence (who obviously easily dies to HP Ice). It requires some support like rocks and spikes though rocks are much more important because anything that can dodge spikes damage is what you can't hit as well. Example: Gengar, Tornadus-T, Lati@s and Thunderous-T all dodge/resists the EP/FB combo and Landorus fails to OHKO any with HP Ice (though he will OHKO Tornadus-T and Thunderous-T about 88% of the time after rocks. Gengar and Lati@s only take 45-60% so after rocks they'll be immensely crippled).
As a late game sweeper he's fantastic. The 4x ice weakness isn't nice but teammates can check things like Mamoswine who wreck the party. The dual immunities to Ground/Electric give him plenty of opportunities to come in and set up a Rock Polish. After a rock polish (with rocks up) it's more or less GG if the opponent doesn't have a strong priority user as he will proceed to OHKO plenty of teams. He runs train over DragMag (bar Mamo who needs to be accounted for), Sun and most Sand teams and the only thing stopping him really is strong priority. Modest nature is also possible as it allows Landorus to hit harder once it has it's RP boost but there aren't many things (bar it's checks) that this lets it deal with better and outpacing base 100s is generally more important.
Premptive theorymoning since Mamo ruins the party and is an obvious opposing choice if Landorus is chosen: anything that can take an ice shard and outspeed would be a good partner to this guy. Also a good trapper like TTar or Scizor (though Scizor to a lesser extent since Lati@s tend to carry HP Fire) would be nice to kill off it's main checks (Lati@s give the most grief but he also can't hit Levitating Ghost types like Gengar very well). Scizor seems to be a good partner because it beats Mamo (BP > Ice Shard), can Trap (though somewhat poorly as mentioned) and can soften up the opposing team with U-Turn if banded were chosen.
Are you suggesting Landorus be a late-game sweeper, or one of the first pokes sent out?
Fat Dragons Can be Strong
Dragonite (M) @ Leftovers
EVs: 252 HP / 64 Def / 60 SDef / 132 Spd
Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Dragon Dance
- Dragon Claw
Incredibly underrated yet incredibly effective.This is a standard SubDD Dragonite.This set is rarely seen but if you ask anyone whoever used it,I assure you you'll get nothing but a shower of praise and admiration for this guy.
Now for some serious description,the goal of this set is to abuse multiscale with Sub and Roost setting up multiple Dragon Dance's in the process.Thanks to it's bulk,multiscale,sub and roost,it can set up on a huge array of pokemons.Then it's just a matter of time before the opposing team gets swept by Dragon Claw.A sweep is almost guaranteed with little support.
The checks for this set are few and far between.And the set itself acts as a reliable Late Game Cleaner creating the oppurtunity to get rid of whatever pokemon Team 2 might choose in response of SubDDNite before this guy comes into action.These 2 charactaristics makes it a very good choice for Team 1's first pokemon in my opinion.
Kyurem-B @ Leftovers
EVs: 252 HP / 64 Def / 136 SpD / 56 Spe
- Hone Claws
- Dragon Tail
Imagine SubRoost DDNite, but one that cannot be phazed out ;0 Meet SubRoost HC Kyu-B!
This set can carry teams. I have singlehandedly shuffle-swept a team (without hazards!) with this White Frost Dragon. It certainly pulls its weight, thanks to its immense bulk that allows it to survive Modest Landorus's Focus Blast and Specs Keldeo's Secret Sword! It's Substitute wont even break from Heatran's Lava Plume :D. There are simply way too many set-up opportunities for Kyurem-B - it will certainly pull some major feats in any game ;)
Not trying to shoot down diversity as I do like the set but there are a lot of things that stop this poke and they've got a whole team to work with still. That and the fact that Pocket's Kyurem-B set seems like a better choice as far as the "bulky set up dragon" position goes. I know from personal experience that it's a massive pain to get around...
Jirachi @ Leftovers
Trait: Serene Grace
EVs: 68 Atk / 252 SAtk / 188 Spd
Mild Nature (+SAtk, -Def)
- Iron Head
- Fire Punch
- Hidden Power [Ice]
This jirachi set is a nice wall breaker. With fire punch it can catch fire types that normally switch into it, mainly Forretress and Ferrothorn, Hidden power ice murder Landorus-t, Gliscor, and dragonite, while thunderbolt lets you 2ko some bulky waters and skarmory. Iron head is the main stab that helps you flinching to death things. The spread is to outspeed landorus-t, and to make sure that gliscor is dead after an hidden power ice.
Scizor @ Life Orb
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
- Swords Dance
- Bullet Punch
- Bug Bite
We all know what Scizor does. Boost while you can, then Bullet Punch things to death unless your opponent resists. In that case use Bug Bite. Heatran and Magnezone are quite predictable, so you can nail them with Superpower on the switch. Gothitelle cowers in fear at even +0 Bug Bite, so it can't switch in either (and can't really do much to Scizor while it's in unless it's running Timid or Scarf with Hidden Power Fire). The real kicker here is Scizor's priority, which discourages your opponent from wasting its time boosting. Unfortunately in this challenge, your opponent knows your set, so bluffing is impossible.
Melee Mewtwo's SubPetaya Empoleon: This set still works! Hell, it's probably better now thanks to Drizzle ;d I prefer Timid Nature, though, so it's faster than Scarf Rotom-W and Scarf Kyurem-B at +2. 12 HP / 252 SpA / 244 Spe; Timid Nature is what I would go with.
Neiliel Tu Oderschvank's Jirachi: Expert Belt is better, imo. It gives you a lot more power in its moves, allowing it to OHKO Scizor with Fire Punch after SR, etc. You can also afford to run more Speed, too. 148 Atk / 204 SpA / 156 Spe; Naive Nature is the spread I suggest.
NixHex's LO SD Scizor: This set wrecks. I highly suggest Jolly Nature, though. Being faster than Tentacruel, Specs Toed, Adamant Breloom, Max Spe Magnezone, and Wish Rachi are significant threats that you miss out with Adamant.
Well yeah you are right, take in mind that i used that set under hail (well probably it wasnt even my team) so i didnt like the recoil. Leftovers is quite good anyway to get a sort of recover thanks to iron head, and without leftovers i think that people assume that i am scarfed so they can maybe expect a fire punch or an ice punch, so i dont know if its better or not..
Well, it's not a sure thing that the team we're going to build would have Abomasnow. I had no problems nailing Gliscor / Hippo with HP Ice or Scizor with Fire Punch even if they assumed I am Scarfed. This is because, Scizor would switch into Iron Head, expecting Jirachi to be locked into it, only to be taken out the following turn with Fire Punch.
PS: That's true, ClubbingSealCub ;x I was just proving a point.
Many of these sets have a surprise factor.
Am I missing something ? Why start with specific, hard to pull off pokemons who lose a lot of their power once the moveset is revealed?
EDIT : A little ninja'd :>
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