Sceptile (SubPetaya) [QC 0/3]
 

Talked a few days ago with some people on IRC and yesterday Pocket and alexwolf said I should post it here, so here goes.

http://www.smogon.com/download/sprites/bw/254.png
LORD OF THE FOREST!

[SET]
name: SubPetaya
move 1: Giga Drain
move 2: Substitute
move 3: Hidden Power Ice
move 4: Focus Blast
item: Petaya Berry
ability: Unburden
nature: Timid
evs: 252 SpA / 40 SpD / 216 Spe
ivs: 30 HP / 30 Atk / 30 Def


[SET COMMENTS]

• This set makes use of Sceptile's Dream World ability, Unburden.
• You can easily set up Substitutes with Sceptile until you reach your Petaya boost because it's blazing fast and has a typing that does well against common threats such as Rotom-W, Politoed, Hippowdon, and Terrakion.
• Just set up and kill stuff. You'd be impressed on how many standard rain / sand teams have trouble with this set after you kill their Steel-type.
• Giga Drain is the main STAB move that gives Sceptile a pseudo-recovery move, which is nice to give it more Substitutes.
• Substitute is to reach less than 25% HP, therefore making Petaya Berry activate.
• Hidden Power Ice is for Dragon-types that otherwise wall this set. It is also good to hit Flying and Grass types.
• Focus Blast finishes the set allowing you to hit Steel-types super effectively, as well as dealing more damage to Tyranitar.
• You will not be outsped by anything in the tier after Unburden activates, which means the only things that can revenge kill this set are priority users. Unfortunately, they're common in the tier.

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

• You can go for Leaf Storm and White Herb to hit hard on the first and second hit while also activating Unburden, but this won't allow Sceptile to sweep.
• You can also go for Earthquake > Focus Blast with a Naive nature to hit Heatran, Jirachi, and Tentacruel harder.
• EV spread to outspeed Starmie (outspeeding Alakazam and Dugtrio isn't so useful) while giving you some more bulk to set up Substitutes on Scalds.
• 30 IVs in HP give you a number divisible by 4 and give you HP Ice without having to take away Speed IVs, which means you still outspeed Starmie.
• Good teammates include those who can defeat things that wall this set (Jirachi, Amoonguss, Celebi, Heatran, Scizor, etc.). As such, Dugtrio and Heatran are two great partners, the former always trapping and killing Jirachi, Tentacruel, Heatran, and Ninetales while the latter can effectively defeat common bulky Grass-types one-on-one. Pokemon that can come in on priority moves such as Gyarados are good with Sceptile.
• Overgrow can be used to get extra power when at low HP, but Unburden is generally superior.
• Hazard support is nice to Sceptile get a few kills. It's also a Pokémon that forces lots of switches, so try to abuse this.
• You can also go for Modest because you'll still be outspeeding everything after an Unburden boost. It'll be harder to set up, though.
• Can run Hidden Power Fire and Dragon Pulse over Hidden Power Ice and Substitute, respectively. This way it hits Steel-types such as Scizor and Ferrothorn harder while also having super effective coverage on Dragon-types, but it'll be harder to get Sceptile a Petaya boost.
• Some calcs for Sceptile at +1 (please someone give me the correct HTML code because I don't have it. ?_?)

Is Sub really necessary? Giga Drain - Focus Blast - HP Fire - Dragon Pulse sounds equally appealing, with the ability to hit Latias and Steel-types harder.

Definitely need to mention teammates to deal with Steel-types and Latias that walls this set.

Sceptile is really frail and the only way it has to reach less than 25% HP is with Substitute. Most people just try to KO it right ahead, but I guess I can give it a try. I'll leave Dragon Pulse and Hidden Power Fire on AC for now.

Oh my word I love all the attention Sceptile is suddenly getting!

I have little experience with this set (for now), but think that Sub is a necessity because of the aforementioned frailty. It's hard to get a move that won't just kill Jungle Lizard, but will activate the Petaya. Sub also blocks the obvious status moves from junk like T-Wave Ferrothorn and Defensive Politoed's Toxic you can set up on. Dragon Pulse might be able to be slashed over Hidden Power Ice for neutral and powerful coverage. If you have a partner to handle Steels, you can probably maim opposing Grasses as well. Sceptile has a problem with Priority moves too. *coughVolcaronadoesallthatcough*

I'm not convinced by this set. it's hilariously weak to any priority user (yes even aqua jet), it's not exactly the most powerful when you consider the fact focus blast is your strongest move, and giga drain does NOT help you get into petaya range? -.-

I'd use SubPetaya Empoleon over this any day, due to far, far better typing, and power (especially when you conisder drizzle). and empoleon itself isnt even used, because generally speaking, sacrificng 75% of your HP in order to sweep is not worth it. especially when your sweep is so, so easy to stop.

Also why Timid? This Sceptile is hilariously weak, and would definetly need a Modest nature as it needs all the power it needs. your calcs only show pokemon that get hit super effectively, and even then you even showed us that most of them aren't getting OHKOd at +1. You can argue that the Speed drop is an issue when Sceptile is not in unburden range, but you should find plenty of things slower than a modest sceptile anyway. and from there you spam sub until you hit 25%. but this is only on paper, as the #1 most used Poekmon in ou stops you cold (and not just because of bullet punch, as it can also easily switch into any move), ninetales stops you cold, bulky things like reuniclus dont give a shit either, breloom and mamoswine pick you off, etc. i don't see this working

I'm sorry, I don't believe you got the real point of the set and I don't think you're able to convince anyone without testing it first. Sceptile is a RU Pokemon. It's NOT going to be something like SubSalac Terrakion or CM Keldeo. It's just a nice set that works nicely against common teams that aren't prepared to face it. This set is the only one capable of taking an advantage of Sceptile's Dream World ability while also being able to commonly defeat standard rain and sand teams. Look at Swimmin Pools (by CTC) as an example. It literally has nothing to kill it and as long as you manage to put rocks on the field you will win.

Your comparison with Empoleon doesn't convince me either, mainly because Empoleon is slow, which means it gets revenge killed by common stuff (Scarf Keldeo, Scarf Terrakion, Scarf Thundurus-T, etc.) in rain while also having a main STAB that does not hit rain threats super effectively, although not extremely necessary.

Timid is better than Modest because it allows you to set up on almost everything in the tier. Sceptile's function in this set isn't wallbreaking, it's sweeping. It doesn't need full power because it can manage to defeat everything with Timid too. Of course there are situations where running Modest can be good, this is why I mentioned it in AC.

And about you saying that Ninetales and Scizor stop this set cold, is it really hard to get Ninetales and Scizor out of the battle? There are lots of stuff that can kill Ninetales and Scizor in the tier, it's not just because this set loses to them that it doesn't deserve a place in the analysis. You talk like every other Sceptile set could defeat them one-on-one lol

You need 30 IVs in HP and no HP EVs so that Petaya activates with 3 Substitutes and full health. Otherwise, this looks good, SubPetaya Sceptile is good stuff.

This set seems ok to use against offensive teams, mainly due to the fact that it is so easy to set-up (come in against something slower that doesn't have priority and you can OHKO at +1, meaning at least half the tier), outspeeds everything in the tier after Unburden activates, and doubles as a decent revenge killer and cleaner even without any setup. I will test this and come back at you with more info...

Make sure you mention that the IV spread is 30 HP / 30 Atk / 30 Def for a perfect Hidden Power Ice. If you're smart and want to minimize random confusion and/or Foul Play damage, 30 HP / 2 Atk / 30 Def also works for a 70 BP HP[Ice].

papa noel, you're right, i haven't tested it and shouldn't judge before i do. i'll admit that my judgement was clouded because i was thinking about stuff like endure reversal mons, and i guess i spoke too quickly. i think i owe it to you now to test this set properly

Generally, Sub pinch berry sets don't work, unless your name is Empoleon because you have resistance to most priority attacks. Sceptile is frail, its coverage isn't very good. I'm no exactly convinced, but I'll give it a test when I get the time.

On the other hand, we have a Sceptile revamp a couple of threads down. You could have just posted this in that thread, you know.

Unfortunately for Empoleon, Techniloom now exists.

i'd like to briefly state that pinch berry sets really suck in ou now, and sceptile is no exception. since sand is very common and puts a timer on your pinch mon, plus priority is everywhere, there's almost no room to pull off a sweep except in extremely late-game scenarios...

anyways, a little edit to the set that you might try is taking some evs out of speed and putting them into sdef, because sceptile really only needs to hit 362 speed in order to outspeed almost everything that's not scarfed (zam/duggy are pretty irrelevant imo) plus by doing this you get a little extra bulk with which to lessen the chance of random scalds etc breaking your sub. the new ev spread should look like this:

252 satk / 40 sdef / 216 spd

edit: thanks seth_vilo, didn't notice that

Lavos, do you mean 252 SpA / 40 SpD / 216 Spe so you sub three times and activate Petaya at exactly 25%?

Sub salc terrakion is weak to almost every priority move in the tier and is still one of the better sweepers in OU. Let's not forget that gotholite and zone can trap everything you need to sweep.

I've used this set before the Tornadus-T ban, so I'll try to give some input.

This isn't really true for Sceptile, since Giga Drain allows it to regain health as it sweeps. Giga Drain on RP Genesect had gotten popular leading up to its ban, and this functions similarly. In fact, I've found it pretty crucial since, in order to sweep, Sceptile's health has to be at < 25%. That being said, Energy Ball should get an AC mention since Giga Drain makes it harder to get into Petaya range in some circumstances.

Modest should at least be a slash next to Timid, since the extra power can be useful against neutral targets. Like Lavos suggested, a slower spread should be used in that case, although I would probably bump the speed EVs up to 232 to outspeed Garchomp. Obviously it's dependent on the team, though. I would still stay Timid should be the first slash though, the biggest reason being that Ice Beam Starmie actually beats you one on one, and it's something you would probably want Sceptile to set up on. While I'm on the topic of speed, Overgrow, although it is an inferior option, should get an AC mention, since it does help with wall-breaking.

Finally, partners that don't mind priority should get a mention. Water-types like Gyarados and Keldeo are examples of this, and also have good type synergy with Sceptile. For that reason, it also fits well onto Rain teams. I may edit this post later if I think of anything else.

Thing with SubSalac Terrakion is that Substitute and Salac Berry are not the focus of that set. Personally, I play SubSalac Terrakion like any other SubSD Terrakion, except if I see the opportunity arise, I'd use Sub down to Salac range to get the +1 Speed.

agreeing with this, extending upon it a little further even in that i often just play subsalac terrakion like it's a scarf terrakion and bluff it for a while, then when the opportunity arises and my opp things it's scarf and goes to sac something, i sub up on the switch and start wreaking havoc. salac berry is really just there so i can a) sub down on faster stuff that's attacking me continuously, and b) bluff a choice item since there's no recoil like there is with life orb. sceptile can't bluff a choice item, because who in their right mind is going to see a sceptile in team preview and assume that it's choiced? everyone knows that subpetaya is basically the only viable set in ou (though if you are using sceptile in ou in the first place, god knows what's going through your head). therefore, surprise value is lost. also, my points about sand wearing down still stand. saying giga drain means sandstorm is irrelevant is ignoring the voice of common sense. nobody whose intent is to wear down sceptile with sand damage is going to send in stuff that sceptile can use giga drain on and actually recover a substantial amount of health. besides, i feel as though we're ignoring a crucial point here, and that is that this set is really, really weak. +1 hidden power ice coming off sceptile isn't even enough to ohko latios after stealth rocks. that is weak stuff, definitely not ou material in my opinion.

this set is garbage. me and pocket were discussing sceptile the other day and i think (or thought) the consensus was life orb is the way to go - just revenge kill and hope it does some serious damage. you can see that thing is just way too weak to get going - it relies entirely on sub and the petaya boost and is already on a short clock when it could have been dealing damage before.

ok, as i said, i tested the set. and i stand by my original opinon. one, this thing is piss weak. two, it's mauled by any priority. and three, it really cannot take a hit. it also completely relies on getting that SpA boost for it to do any sort of damage, and it really fails against any somewhat bulky pokemon. latias is another full on counter, and priority from the likes of scizor, lucario, dragonite, mamoswine, breloom, abomasnow etc is just too common. sand isn't so detrimental to it because of giga drain, but the main problem with this set is its power, and above all, the fact that it relies far too much on focus blast, which will bite you in the ass far too often. not worth it.

I'm sorry, but I have to desagree with all of you. We're talking about a RU Pokemon, nobody is hopes this set will be a complete monster. There's a reason why Sceptile is not OU. The point of this set is that it has a nice as a sweeper, a niche like Snorlax's in the current meta. Sceptile's function in this set is to stop common rain teams without fearing being revenge killed as long as you kill Jirachi / Scizor / Bronzong / Ferrothorn (not hard iirc) as well as putting a lot of pressure on sand balance teams (Hippo / Forry / Heatran / Amoonguss / Stoutland / Rotom-W is a nice example). I believe you guys are demanding too much about a RU Pokemon. I tested it to make a surprise against some good players and it turned out pretty well. I think it deserves a spot in Sceptile's OU analysis, because honestly there's no great Sceptile set, and this one has a nice niche.

.cry

papai noel, if you can save some logs / replays, that would help your case. I'm leaning towards reject, though, for the reasons stated by others.

QC Reject (1/3)

Sorry I tested this set and its just lacklustre in BW OU. Nothing more that needs to be said i'm afraid.

QC Reject 2/3

Sorry man but this set is just not viable in OU. I tried it for 10-15 games. It may be able to clean some weakened offensive teams when all priroity users are gone, but this is the only thing it can do, and this is not enough reason for one set. Better luck next time!