Lord of the Beasts - One team to rule them all!
Lord of the Beasts
Wow it's been a long time since i made a RMT... I had some good teams and ideas i wanted to share but i always ended up being a lazy fuck. This is the team i used to get voting rights in the Keldeo and Tornadus-T suspect test and i have played around ~75 games with it. It peaked somewhere in the top 20-30, but i don't really remember, so if you want to be sure go and check the screenshot in the last suspect vote. Anyway, this team was made with two goals in mind. The first goal is to abuse the entry hazards that Deoxys-D provides to the fullest, with a combination of Deo-D + Gengar + Weavile, with Weavile trapping any Starmie that would KO Gengar and killing it before it spins. Then Garchomp, Breloom, and the second focus of the team, Kingdra, are the Pokemon that take advantage of the hazards with the switches they force and their huge immediate power, as well as great set-up potential. The second goal of the team was to use Kingdra as i mentioned, and support it as well as i could, as its Rain Dance set intrigued me to no end, but i never got to try it. From the moment i started using it i fell in love with it and started having less and less issues against rain and sun teams, while also having a solid switch in for Keldeo's choice locked moves. So let's go to the team...
The Team in Details
Deoxys-D @ Mental Herb
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
IVs: 0 Atk
Timid Nature (+Spe, -Atk)
- Stealth Rock
- Skill Swap
This is the standard Deoxys-D set with a twist. Instead of Thunder-Wave or Night Shade i went for Skill Swap, to be able to set hazards in front of Espeon and Xatu. I usually hit them on the switch, which is usually pretty obvious, but sometimes i will go for Stealth Rock if my opponent has something scary against me, such as CB Scizor, as i don't want to spend my turn doing nothing if the opponent chooses to switch out via U-turn. Even if Xatu or Espeon bounce it back, i don't really care, as long as i set-up mine too. Skill Swap also comes nifty against Sableye and Gliscor. While the former goes for Taunt, Deo-D cures it with Mental Herb and then steals Prankster and uses Sableye as set-up fodder. Against Gliscor i just let a few turns pass, and then steal his ability while he loses a huge chunk of its health. There are very few cases where i don't lead with Deoxys-D, and those are against some teams with CB Scizor, where Garchomp or Gengar lead, and against some opposing Deo-D teams, where sometimes i lead with my own Gengar.
Gengar @ Focus Sash
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
IVs: 0 Atk
Timid Nature (+Spe, -Atk)
- Shadow Ball
- Focus Blast
- Destiny Bond / Hidden Power Fire
Gengar is such a versatile Pokemon, and this aspect is the one that i like the most about it. Some people expect Scarf Gengar, some others the classic SubDisable Gengar or the common SubSplit Gengar, and there is always the fear of Focus Sash Gengar with Shadow Ball and Focus Blast and then god knows what it might carry in the last two slots. Shadow Ball and Focus Blast are basic for any Gengar set and their use is obvious. Taunt is used to prevent Chansey and Blissey from walling me and turns them into utter set-up bait, and is also used to prevent any dangerous set-up sweeper from boosting, such as Dragonite, Volcarona, and Gyarados. Taunt can also come handy against Forretress if i am not using Hidden Power Fire, Toxic Spikes Tentacruel, which is a nuisance for this team, and Deoxys-D. Finally, it works amazing with Destiny Bond, and makes sure the opponent will either die or take more hazard damage. Hidden power Fire is admittedly useful against lead Scizors, netting me some surprise OHKOes, and against Scizor in general as long as Gengar's Focus Sash is active, against Ferrothorn when i don't want to risk the god awful accuracy of Focus Blast, and against Forretress. I find myself using both moves on the last slot quite frequently, and none of them outclasses the other.
Gengar usually comes in after Deo-D finishes setting up, and will be gladly sacrificed in order to prevent the opponent from spinning. How Gengar fares against the OU Rapid Spinners? Forretress is either OHKOed by HP Fire, or neutralized by Taunt. The worst it can do to me is hit me with Gyro Ball, but with good timing this may result to its death. Tentacruel either gets worn down to the point where it can't find a chance to spin again, or dies from Destiny Bond with the right timing. This also helps a lot Kingdra, which needs Tentacruel dead or severely weakened in order to clean up late game. Donphan usually can't do shit to Gengar and gets 2HKOed by Shadow Ball. Finally, against Starmie it depends on what set it is running. If it uses a Life Orb set, then it will get trapped and killed from Weavile after 3 LO rounds (1 hit on Deo-D, 2 hits to kill Gengar), which does 71% damage min to Starmie with Pursuit. Against defensive Starmie i have to play two coin flip games, and thankfully if i win either of them, i win the hazard war. The first coin flip is when i bring in Gengar. If i bring Gengar in as Starmie uses Psyshock or Scald i lose, if i come in as it uses Rapid Spin i win. If i lose the first coin flip, then i bring Weavile in and we have the second coin flip. If i use Pursuit and Starmie stays in it lives and spins away my hazards, while if i guess correctly and it switches out i kill it.
Weavile @ Life Orb
EVs: 32 HP / 252 Atk / 224 Spe
Jolly Nature (+Spe, -SpA)
- Ice Shard
- Night Slash
- Low Kick
Weavile finishes the operation hazards combo. As i already mentioned it traps and kills any Starmie that got past Gengar, usually ensuring that hazards will stay up. Weavile also serves as my only answer to a host of dangerous threats, such as Scarf Salamence, Scarf Garchomp, and any Speed boosting set-up sweeper such as Agility Thundurus-T and Rock Polish Lanorus. Furthermore, Weavile traps and kills Lati@s, which is huge for this team, as every powerhouse on the team is fucked up by them. Sometimes it deals with defensive Celebi too, which another pain in the ass for both Breloom and Kingdra. Ice Shard is Weavile's revenge killing tool, Night Slash is used over Ice Punch to OHKO defensive Starmie, OHKO any Volcarona variant after SR, except for physically defensive set, and to be able to do some damage to Rotom-W, Jirachi, Ninetales, and Tentacruel, common Weavile switch-ins. Pursuit allows Weavile to trap stuff and Low Kick maims Tyranitar, Ferrothorn, Terrakion and much more.
Weavile is one of the fastest Pokemon in OU, and because of this, it is my main answer to speedy Pokemon that the rest of the team can't handle, such as Terrakion, Tornadus-T, and Alakazam. Usually, Weavile comes in either after something dies, sets-up, or on a predicted Psychic-type move (Alakazam's Psychic, Celebi's Psychic, etc). It is also a very handy Pokemon to have against Sun teams, as it does 62.91 - 74.83% to Venusaur, a OHKO most of the time after SR + Spikes and one LO round. Unfortunately Weavile is easy to wall, and so whenever i see something that walls Weavile in the opposing team, i have to make smart double switches in order to not lose my momentum.
Garchomp @ Life Orb
Trait: Rough Skin
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Naive Nature (+Spe, -SpD)
- Dragon Tail
What a beast! This thing is bulky, fast, and has no counters. Yeah i mean it! With SR and sometimes a layer of Spikes up, any would be counter is fucked up by Dragon Tail, namely Hippowdon, Landorus-T, and Gliscor. Skarmory, Bronzong, Forretress, and Ferrothorn are all taken care of by Flamethrower, which btw i use because i hate misses, and Flamethrower gets any OHKO/2HKO i want it to get anyway so why risk with Fire Blast? Outrage is a huge nuke that OHKOes almost any Pokemon neutral to it such as Thundurus-T, Landorus, Keldeo and even 252 HP Politoed after SR.
So what is the role of Garchomp in the team? To deal with Jirachi, first and foremost, which otherwise would completely rape me. Garchomp is one of the best checks to SubCM Jirachi and SpD Jirachi with Thunder, which wall or threaten most of my other team, so keeping Garchomp alive as long as Jirachi is healthy is essential. Garchomp's role in general is to find switch-in opportunities, which is very easy to do with its lovely bulk, and force switches to start shuffling and weakening the opposing team with Dragon Tail. Once the opposing team is weakened enough and nothing that can wall Kingdra or Breloom remains, Garchomp can say goodbye.
Breloom @ Fighting Gem
EVs: 176 HP / 252 Atk / 80 Spe
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SpA)
- Swords Dance
- Mach Punch
- Bullet Seed
Breloom is the first sweeper of the team. I always like some bulk on my sweepers, and this is why i went with this EV spread. The Speed EVs are enough to outspeed and Spore most Choice Band Tyranitar and SpD Heatra, and the rest are put into bulk. +2 Fighting Gem is very powerful, and even resistors such as Tornadus-T take 65% min from it, making it very hard to revenge kill. Whatever counters Breloom should have been taken care of by the time that Breloom comes out, which means that Pokemon such as Celebi, Xatu, Gengar, and Latias, must be either dead or weakened if you want Breloom to do anything remarkable. You can bring Breloom early game and try to double switch to Weavile, which can trap and kill anything that gives to Breloom troubles with correct prediction, or at least weaken it to KO range of a +2 Mach Punch. Breloom was also put in the team to help Kingdra with its biggest problems: Ferrothorn, Jellicent, water-types in general, and Chansey and Blissey. Whenever Kingdra comes out the opponent must bring one of those Pokemon in or risk taking heavy damage, and this is where Breloom comes in and starts the demolition. Finally, Breloom forms an Ice + Fighting priority core with Weavile, allowing me to revenge kill most speedy threats in the meta without a lot of issues, and gives me more room for error in general.
Kingdra @ Life Orb
Trait: Swift Swim
EVs: 40 HP / 240 SpA / 228 Spe
IVs: 0 Atk
Modest Nature (+SpA, -SpA)
- Rain Dance
- Hydro Pump
- Dragon Pulse
- Ice Beam
And finally we have the centerpice of the team. Rain Dance Kingdra makes for an excellent sweeper in weatherless offensive teams, mainly due to its ability to threaten sun and rain offense, while being a fearsome sweeper on its own. Hydro Pump under rain is just scary, and OHKOes 252 HP Jirachi after SR and Spikes. Dragon Pulse is used against weakened Water types, and any Dragon such as Latios and Kyurem-B. Ice Beam is the last move isntead of Draco Meteor or Surf, as i usually clean with Kingdra and i don't want to risk being outstalled because of an bad timed Draco Meteor. Not to mention that if Kingdra uses DM it won't be able to finish cleaning up most of the time. Ice Beam lets me OHKO Gliscor, Tornadus-T, Thundurus-T, and any other flying or ground type, so i don't have to bang on Hydro Pump's shaky accuracy, and it also lets me 2HKO SpD Celebi and Amoonguss after SR, something very important. Oh the OHKO on Venusaur after SR is sweet as well.
Against rain teams, i have to weaken the opposing Water-types, and the occasional Ferrothorn or Celebi (Breloom and Weavile are your friends here) and then Kingdra easily cleans. Against Sun teams i can set-up a Rain Dance against Xatu, Ninetales, or even unboosted Venusaur and Volcarona if the need arises and harash them so that Breloom can later clean. As you can see neither offensive Sun teams nor offensive Rain teams are especially problematic for this team to face, thanks to Kingdra, double priority, and the inability of common weather sweepers (Venusaur) to set-up anywhere. Against Sand teams Kingdra can just blust stuff right away, or depend on its teammates to take on the Pokemon that wall it, while entry hazards start taking their toll. If i manage to kill the sand inducer then i can even pull off a Rain Dance sweep.
Biggest Threats to the Team
Timid Volcarona is very troubling as it can set-up against Deo-D, while i try to Taunt it in vain, and then get OHKOed next turn. Then Garchomp can take a hit from LO-less versions and OHKO back with Outrage, but this is not a good start. Any other Volcarona can be handled just fine as it can't set up anywhere and gets fucked by SR. Sableye can get really annoying, as even though Deo-D will manage to set-up on its face, it will still be able to cock-block Weavile, Garchomp and Breloom, meaning that i will have to pressure it all the time with double switches to Kingdra whenever i expect it to come in, which is something i don't relly like as Kingdra is more valuable late game. Nothing else comes to mind atm, but i am sure i missed something as i am a bit tired. Will probably edit tomorrow with whatever i remember and anything you guys find out.
That was the team and i hope you liked it! Feel free to leave your comments, use this team, and suggest changes. Thanks for reading!
(Also i would appreciate if anyone could show me some more badass pics of Breloom and Kingdra, which will be in the same drawing-style with the others. VM/PM me any pics you have, thx :D)
A major threat to your team as you said Volcarona. Volcarona, also is a major threat because although you can destroy it with Garchomp holding an attack, you loose Deoxys-D and this is not a good start to the battle for the team.
To solve the problem in a quick fix would be to make Volcarona Choice Scarf Gengar with Destiny Bond, but Volcarona will never be a team without a Rapid Spinner then we lose now and goodbye to delete Gengar Entry Hazards.
If you want a Pokemon that stops Volcarona, you're forced to replace a Pokemon, or at least make Garchomp with Choice Scarf Stone Edge comes on and kills Quiever Dance Volcarona with Stone Edge, but at that point no longer work that appeals to you with Life Orb and Dragon Tail, but at least it saves you from Volcarona without damage.
So I would say try to see how it works with Choice Scarf and Stone Edge, it costs nothing, I tried to find a solution to Volcarona without making major changes because I see that every Pokemon has a role in this team. I hope to have helped. Good team! Luvdisc'd
Good luck, with your team!
Very nice team you have here so props for it! However, I have some advice to give you so let's start with the rate. Alright, looking at your team, I see that you haven't a revenge-killer. You have some priority moves which is good but, in my opinion, you need somewhat which has much speed to revenge-killer any threat without any problem. Therefore, I suggest you to change Gengar's set in a Choice Scarf. Scarf Gengar is a good revenge-killer and it's a very very good anti-spinner too so it helps you to keep up Stealth Rock and Spikes which are important for your sweepers. I'd use a EV spread of 252 SAtk | 252 Spe | 4 HP with a moveset of Shadow Ball, Focus Blast, Destiny Bond and Hidden Power Ice, with Timid nature and with Choice Scarf of course. Finally, I'd change Kingdra's set a bit. Draco Meteor is a very good move on Kingdra because it has more fire power than Dragon Pulse and that's important for a wall-breaker as Life Orb Kingdra and it helps you a lot against stall teams so I suggest you to use Draco Meteor replacing Dragon Pulse. As last thing, Ice Beam doesn't seem a useful move on Kingdra because it hits already dragon-types and grass-types with Draco Meteor and ground-types with Hydro Pump. Therefore, I'd use Surf > Ice Beam which can be useful when you don't need Hydro Pump's fire power and you don't want a Hydro Pump miss.
Anyways, cool team again! Luvdisc'd. Good luck!
Hi alexwolf. I didn't know you were talking about a Deo-D HO team, this kind of weatherless team is perfectly viable and your team is a great example. Btw, it reminds me of a friend's RMT (Reymedy). Tbh I think I prefer yours because i'm not keen on scarfed mons and i think you deal with skarm better. Sadly, this may also show that there isn't much choices to build an optimal DeoD HO. The DeoD / SashGar / Weavile core is indeed very good to ensure hazards, while Weavile also helps the team by eliminating Latias/Celebi/Gengar/Alakazam and checks most of sweepers boosting their speed (Therians, Dragons). One of the best niche for this pokemon.
The teambuilding is very solid here. You put a lot of thoughts in each set up to put 0 IVs to your special attackers for foul play / confusion i guess. Props for Skill swap and Kingdra that seem to be 2 good ideas. I like dragon tail on Garchomp and use it too on a support set, but here i wonder if SD is not better / less risky if you dtail and a faster mon come in.
I'm not seeing any blatant weakness so congrats for that (though I'm not a TR), as even Volcarona can be handled with clever play and rocks if it doesn't come turn 1. Keldeo looks like a threat because it can come on nearly everyone and threaten a KO so keeping hazards on field is extremely important to nail it with Mach Punch if it doesn't switch. And I can see a defensive Rotom being annoying with WoW / TWave, so I suggest to speed creep a little with breloom to outspeed SpDef Rotom ; Breloom is frail anyway.
Hey Alexwolf, pretty cool team you've got here. You're using a tried and true playstyle while also taking advantage of some underrated Pokemon and sets. This is a really solid team, so I won't be suggesting any mon changes, only a few set changes.
So like others have said, Volcarona is a bit of an issue for this team, resisting both of your priority moves, and max speed versions can even set up on Deoxys-D. Kingdra is probably your best response, but if at full health it can keep Quiver Dancing and restore the health it lost with either Roost or Giga Drain. I don't think the solution is a Choice Scarf user, though (especially on Gengar since that sort of defeats the point of Weavile). A hyper offensive team like this needs all the momentum it can get, and I wouldn't want to sacrifice that by putting in a Scarf user. I think the solution is simply changing Deoxys-D's moveset in order to limit Volc's setup opportunities. The change I would recommend is Thunder Wave over Skill Swap. The main use of Skill Swap is to get past Xatu and Espeon, but you already have Weavile taking care of that. As you said, it is cool against Sableye and Gliscor, but Mental Herb already turns them into set up fodder, so I don't see it as particularly necessary. Thunder Wave, on the other hand, is great for preventing set up sweepers from destroying your team while you try to get hazards up with Deoxys. Volcarona in particular is the biggest one you'd want to hit with it, but basically any fast mon can get ruined by it. It fails to get dangerous set up sweepers like Landorus and Thundurus-T, but you already have Weavile covering those. I can also see that your using Ice Beam on Kingdra. The main reason to use this is for Celebi, but you already have Weavile Pursuit trapping that (It can't even get away with BP!), so I'd suggest Draco Meteor or Surf over Ice Beam on Kingdra. Draco Meteor can be nice when you just need a little extra power to get past a wall, while Surf is cool when you don't need HP's extra power, and don't want to risk a miss. Finally, you might want to consider taking Stealth Rock off Deoxys'D and giving it to Garchomp over Dragon Tail. This could be nice if the opponent has Scizor and you would want to get SR up asap, or just getting an extra layer of hazards in general. I understand the benefit of Dragon Tail, but the extra layer of hazards could potentially be more useful over the course of a game. Since you would now have a free slot on Deoxys-D, Night Shade could go in Stealth Rock's place. This would make sure substitute users can't set up on Deoxys, potentially saving you from sacking a mon.
That's all the changes I could think of, hopefully they'll help you out. Good luck with the team!
Edit: Oh, one thing I forgot to mention about using Stealth Rock on Garchomp is that Ground / Fire coverage is really nice to have on a hazard setter because it lets you cover Tentacruel and Forretress at the same time, which can be annoying, even if you do have Gengar. (Volt Switch + Pursuit for Forry and rain Tenta in general are both annoying for Deoxys-D hyper offense in general.)
Just some thoughts about your team. I've been a fan of skill swap deo-d because its ridicolously good to shut down sun teams with xatu, but, in this case, i think its not necessary at all. You can easily switchback to gengar, or even better, weavile, when you know xatu is going to switch in, and they both scare xatu so that you dont lose momentum. Weavile does a jood job with pursuit, while its not a 100 ko i think that 52% of chances to ko it its more than enough. Unless im wrong with the calculations it will do the following damages: 339 Atk VS 248 Def and 334 HP (120 Base Power): 308 - 363 (92.21% - 108.68%)
As for sableye, i dont think its that encessary. Sableye is nowhere common in ou, and you still have gengar and kindgra to deal with it, and mental herb deo-d lets you setup sr anyway.
So i think you can put something that will be more usefull in every other battle, like Thunder wave. Thunder wave will let you paralize volcarona for example, so thats not a problem anymore.
Now, as for garchomp, i dont really know why you are using dragon tail. If you need to beat hippowdown, just use sword dance instead. Sp def hippowdown wont like taking +2 outrages, and also im pretty sure garchomp will appreciate more a statup move in rather than a weak move with negative priority. In fact, you dont even need it to phaze skarmory before it whirlwinds you since you can beat it with ftrower anyway.
Lastly, i support the change of Ice beam for Draco meteor for the reason other people already said.
Hi there bro, really cool team, i like much the core Deoxys-D+ Gengar, the only problem could be Starmie for them, but the choice to use Weavile makes all more interesting, anyway you have a bit problem with some pokemon, and i hope that i ll help you with my possible changes.
The first thing i can see, is the weakness to Scizor, especially the Choice Band set, you have nothing to opposite to his two Stab moves, Bullet Punch and U-Turn on an eventual switch in of Kingdra or Garchomp. An answer to him could be Gengar with Hp fire, like you told, but with the Stealth Rock in your field is really Hard to stop, you can only try to revenge, but is so predictable the possibilty of Fire move on Garchomp and an eventual offensive fast set can outspeed Breloom too. Other Bug problem could be Volcarona, as told you Mr.Green, has totally free setupp on Deoxys-D and you have nothing that can revenge or stop it, another pokemon that completely destory you is a Random Dragon with the support of the Choice Scarf, for example the Lat twins, difficult to trap for Weavile, and so on.
Well, the necessity of a steel that could counterattack, yeah not counter the dragons because you re playing an HO, and that can thake pretty good the damage of a standard Scizor (for superpower you have Gengar if is choice) is felt, so my suggestion is to replace Lucario instead of Breloom, the work is similar, Boost and sweep the opponent, it s true that Breloom sometimes allows you to play 6vs5 but Lucario thanks to his access to double Priority and one that hit a large part of metagame with the possibility to setupp on an eventual loked Dragon/Rock/Ice move and with the help of Entry Hazard is devasting and help you against the above threats.
My idea is to use a moveset of Bullet Punch/Extreme Speed/Close Combat/Sword Dance, in thisway you have the possibility to close the game much times, even if the oppo has behind pokemon like Gengar or Terrakion, the Evs spread is the obvious Max attaker with Life Orb and Adamant Nature.
I ve something about your Deo-D, Skill Swap is an amazing thing, that many times is much useful but with that set boosters with more of 90 Spd base could be a problem since you re running an HO team you can t allow that the opponent Setupp, my advice is to use Red Card over Mental Herb, it allows you to don t worry about Booster, in this way your Taunt is pretty useless, because you already have the way to don t give free setup, and Taunter faster than him can give you some problem to the strategy since you have not more Mental Herb, so you have to replace Magic Coat over Taunt, in this way you have the way to not be taunted and have the possibility to "Reflect" eventual Layer of Entry Hazard and set as much as possible.
The team is really cool, hope i helped, gl with it.
Hey Man! (How could I not rate one of my best friends on Smogon's team?!?)
So Volcarona looks like threat, as well as Banded Scizor. Without Draco Meteor on Kingdra, I'm afraid Expert Belt Keldeo sweeps you XD. Scarf Jirachi is also quite a threat to look out for.
So firstly, I'm not sure about Skill Swap. Deoxys-D would benefit more from Thunder Wave imo, as Weavile makes a great switch into Xatu and Espeon so why bother? I would also tweak the EVs now, as with Thunder Wave you don't need all that speed. Run 290 to taunt Adamant Gliscor and below, and dump the rest into special defense (66 SDef evs) so you can Thunder Wave Venu more reliably. With Thunder Wave, Volcarona shouldn't be an issue since it can't set up on DeoD and you can set up those SR!
I would use Draco Meteor on Kingdra to keep those pesky Expert Belt Keldeo's away as well as just hitting a bunch of stuff in general harder. Make Destiny Bond the primary move and don't use HP Fire: Destiny is needed way too much! That and the speed tier.
Why are you using Dragon Tail? I would utilize Swords Dance, and then add Yache Berry as your item choice so you can reliably beat Scarf Jirachi's Ice Punch. (As well as living Thundy-T's HP Ice).
This is fairly solid otherwise! GL!
Hey there Alexwolf!
This team is super awesome. I never realized how well Weavile functioned as a partner to Deo-D :o My concerns for the team as a whole are super minimal, but I am going to agree with everyone else on the idea of Thunder Wave over Magic Coat. I probably didn't need to say that, but I really want to enforce that it would be best for your team. It helps against other Pokemon, too, while Weavile easily disposes of the only Magic Bouncers in the game. This way, you don't even have to Taunt Volcarona either--just go straight for T-Wave.
Like everyone else, I'm a little bit confused as to why you have Dragon Tail on Garchomp (aside from abusing Deo-D's hazards I suppose). Everyone else is suggesting Swords Dance in that place, but I think Aqua Tail could do you good:
On Weavile, I'd suggest you just go straight for 252 Spe. It's already pretty frail anyway, and speed tying with other Weaviles could possibly come into play. It also outspeeds Scarf Magneton, Scarf Gothitelle, and other random slow-Scarfers. Unless, of course, it's surviving something with those EVs, it'd be more efficient to just go max/max.
Also I'm going to disagree with Shurtugal about running 290 on Deo-D. It would then underspeed Modest Landorus, meaning it can only get 1 layer of hazards up. Another one is Modest Volcarona--and that's a biggie. And since Mental Herb Deo-D is gaining popularity, it still could end up with a speed tie between Deo-Ds. To see the difference, I just calc'd Keldeo's Hydro Pump, and it doesn't 2HKO either way. EDIT @ Shurt: Yeah 302. And it's nice to shut other Deo-D down considering he has a sash and a SR weak. It's too bad Gengar is too weak to OHKO Deo-D :[
I really like this team! Nice work~ Good luck! ^-^
Just curious, what speed tier does Modest Landorus hit?
Ok I researched (damn ipod has no po) hit 302 spe so you outpace Modest Landy. Use Gar vs. opposing DeoD anyway imo (most Deod won't taunt or wave gar in fear of ball / sub)
Yeah it is sad :[
Thx for all the luvdiscs, advice, and nice words people! Now on to the rates:
Choice Scarf Gengar:
Scarf Gengar is set-up bait and i don't want that. A choice-locked D-Bond is one of the worst things and a very unreliable way to beat Volcarona.
Choice Scarf Garchomp:
Same as Gengar. I don't really want a scarfer on the team as it will give too many setup opportunities for my team to handle. Plus i lose my main wallbreaker and hole puncher, which sucks.
Draco Meteor and Surf on Kingdra:
I don't want Surf because Ice Beam is really needed, as Celebi and Venusaur are important targets. As for DM i could give it a try, although i don't like having such a risky move on my cleaner. But Kingdra doesn't always clean so it might be worth it. Yeah i will test this one and see how it goes.
Speed Creep defensive Rotom-W with Breloom:
Great idea, i will go for it!
SD or Aqua Tail or SR over D-Tail:
I think that many of you are forgetting D-Tails main purpose: to rack up entry hazard damage, weakening checks and counters to my sweepers. SD is nice and prevents Garchomp from getting walled too, but it leaves my Garchomp vulnerable to faster mons, and if Garchomp dies while Jirachi is still alive, i am in for a world of pain. I want to be able to get past Hippo, Lando-T, and Gliscor without having to lock myself, and D-Tail does this beautifully. Aqua Tail is a solid option and i could try it, but it can't 2HKO physically defensive Hippo, and as i said the shuffling of D-Tail combined with hazards is just too good to pass up. I may give it a try but D-Tail is just too usefull. Finally, SR is fine on Deo-D, and Garchomp prefers to blast off the enemy instead of setting SR.
Thunder Wave or Night Shade on Deo-D:
T-Wave over Skill Swap would be the best change i could make to deal with Volcarona, and i have thought about in too the past, as T-Wave is the best 4th move on Deo-D imo. But then Weavile would be burdened with too many roles, and so other weaknesses could come out. Not to mention that Weavile can lose from Xatu, as Heat Wave in the sun has 50% chance to OHKO after 1 LO round, and T-Wave renders Weavile useless for the rest of the game. You see the issue? Sun teams are going to dominate me, as even if i kill Xatu (i can't OHKO it so no matter what Weavile will be crippled or dead) then Venusaur will be left unchecked. So unfortunately i can't put T-Wave. Night Shade is nice too (damn Sub Terrakion), but it can't fit anywhere.
Max Speed on Weavile:
Yeah totally! The extra bulk is irrelevant and Weavile is not a rare sight, and as it can actually trouble this team, why not have some more insurrance?
Red Card and Magic Coat on Deo-D:
Unfortunately Red Card doesn't force the opponent out if it OHKOes you, so it is useless without Taunt. Magic Coat over Taunt can't work without Red Card obviously.
Lucario over Breloom:
Lucario can't set-up on Jellicent, Gastrodon, and against water-types in general, and haves way worse priority, as well as lack of Spore. I lose a water resistance, leaving me incredibly weak to Scarf Keldeo too. Sorry but it won't work.
Thanks guys, and keep the rates coming :D
Hi Alexwolf! This is quite a awesome team you got here using the infamous deo/gar/weavile core, and the pairing of kingdra and breloom makes this team very solid! Your kingdra set, I really like it, as ice beam is actually quite good on kingdra, but the lack of draco-meteor is pretty unappealing as kingdra wont be able to break through some bulkier waters. I know that you like to use kingdra as a late game cleaner so heres a set that after it uses d-meteor, kingdra can still continue its sweep. Classic mixdra set!
Kingdra @ Life Orb
Trait: Swift Swim
EVs: 40 Atk / 240 SAtk / 228 Spd
- Rain Dance
- Draco Meteor
- Hydropump/surf/(anything really)
Draco meteor allows you to break the common water switch in, and than continue your sweep with rain boosted waterfalls, killing most of the metagame after some rocks and spikes damage. The last move is up to in all honesty. Anyways cool team and luvdisc'd!
Edit: Was just ninja'd by you lol, so don't know if this rate is still relevant, hope it helped.
I have to say this is a beautiful team. Right from intro I was very interested in testing the team and, thank god, you had an importable menu included! After testing, I don't think there is anything you can really do to improve the team without faltering other aspects of the team. Every member and move is irreplaceable and each moveset is tailored for this very team. The only recommendation I would give is to replace fight gem with life orb on breloom. This gives him enough power to muscle through threats (and even some would be counters) with an unboosted bullet seed on the switch. It also more reliably takes out those water types that keep kingdra from sweeping. Yes I know that means you'll have an excess of LO users in the team, but I think its even more important to have LO on breloom than chomp (not that that matters or anything, but still).
This is the best team I've seen posted on smogon in a long time (and I follow the RMT section quite often). This is in terms of effectiveness AND originality. Like I said, each member fits perfectly both pokemon choice-wise and each moveset. The only other team I'd say is just as effective is the Classic Rain Offense team here: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3476038
Anyways, amazing job on the team, it works wonders with even me just reading the RMT once, I could successfully pilot the team with a 90+% win rate. Amazing job, and a luvdisc much deserved.
P.S. I enjoy your contributions to the One Piece thread too!!
Just saw this team and I noticed I have one extremely similar, I can definitely attest to the effectiveness of Gengar / Kingdra / Breloom. The main thing I see is the lack of a Steel type, which might not be 100% essential for a team as offensive as this, but it is very hard to play around Life Orb Latias / Latios, especially when you're using Hidden Power [Fire] on Gengar. I'd had a lot of success using Scarf Jirachi alongside that offensive core, and if you were to replace anything, I'd advise removing Weavile in place of it, as it does seem like your most replaceable team member. Jirachi similarly checks Dragons, while also helping you against Latias / Latios, but you can also Trick Volcarona to mitigate the few setup attempts it might get. You may argue that you don't want a Scarfer on this team, but I'd argue that Jirachi covers up a lot of the weaknesses your team has, and the change is worth it.
If your team is fully based around a sweep with either Kingdra or Breloom, there's another change you could make. I think you could try out Will-O-Wisp on Gengar over Taunt, as you still can get around Volcarona through Destiny Bond + Stealth Rock. Blocking Chansey / Blissey becomes less important with Taunt if you go with the Jirachi suggestion, as you can simply Trick off your Choice Scarf and send in Breloom. In general, I've found Gengar baits a lot of switches into opposing Scarfers, most of which don't appreciate a Will-O-Wisp, making it a hell of a lot easier to setup with your setup sweepers.
Great team, alexwolf! I love to see the use of Weavile in OU. <See what I did there. Lol. Inside joke!
Hi, I'm happy to see that some people use my core made of Deoxys-D/SashGar/LOWeavile. Well, I even see that you got Fighting Gem Breloom which makes this RMT pretty similar to mine. And the remaining pokemons being a Water and a Dragon pokemon (and no steel) the teams all in all are really close.
Thus, I must admit that I'm really sad to see people saying "Wow your core is amazing" when they mostly criticized it in my RMT. Whatever, we don't share the same popularity I guess.
However, I'm probably the one who played this core the most so maybe my advices could help you.
Before talking about weaknesses and all, I'm gonna explain what is really bothering me with this team. You made some different choices in the teambuilding and they are sets I don't understand.
- First, Deoxys-D. This set is really interesting, and Princess Bri (who created this set first iirc) had a brilliant idea by using Skill Swap. But, this makes no sense in this particular case. This set is made to beat Magic Bouncers mainly (and Prankster, but they are few on the ladder, especially at a high level, it's also cool against pokemon based on their ability like Chlorophyl sweepers for instance). And in the core you're using, there is Weavile.
So here is my wonder, why would you use Skill Swap when you could just switch to Weavile and trap a Magic Bouncer (thus getting a kill). The bet is just the same so there is not logic in using Skill Swap when you have a fast Pursuiter at your disposal. But I agree that Bri's set is pretty cool and it gives you some originality.
- Second, there is one thing I don't like at all in a RMT, this is the /. You Gengar set, you slashed probably the two most important moves leaving you the choice to say "yes, but this pokemon is killed by HP Fire, and this one by Destiny Bond". I'm gonna ignore the / then, and consider that you don't have HP Fire since I can't really rate a 5 moveslots pokemon.
Without HP Fire, you're weak as hell you Scizor. In fact, your team is weak as hell to Scizor in any case, but at least with HP Fire on Gengar, you have a good shot at luring it.
However, the things bothering me is Taunt. This move, makes no sense on a Focus Sash Gengar, it is just too risky. Forretress will Gyro Ball you, that's all, same goes for Ferrothorn. It would be really stupid to risk the Sash like that when the set needs it so much. In a HO you can't afford taking risky bets like that at the cost of an useful moveslot.
So, this is no surprise that the changes you did to my core don't fit me obviously. But Skill Swap is really out of place in this core in my opinion, and Taunt is weird in a HO on a Sash pokemon frail as Gengar. But I must admit that you have a lot of testosterone to use it.
The changes of Jimbon seem really cool by the way, and patch the unlogical Skill Swap use nicely. I'm totally supporting this since you'll have to make a choice between Pursuit and Skill Swap.
Now for the weaknesses :
- Okay, obviously Volcarona as mentionned.
- As I said, Scizor is a BIG one, and people may not realise it at first glance. In fact, you can kill it with chomp but... But the thing is that Scizor is one of the few pokemons that can switch on Weavile safely. And what happens next is that you have to switch your Weavile out as he U-Turn
Now my question, who in your team can eat a CB Scizor's U-Turn ?
Gengar can, but you lose the Sash AND the momentum pretty badly, this is huge.
The rest of your team gets 2HKO'd at best.
Finally, Scizor's Bullet Punch will clean your team badly in late game.
And well, a SD set can be a big trouble for you, same goes for a Scarf set. In other words, a pokemon in the top ranking will put a big pressure on your team no matter which version he's running.
Here, I had Keldeo to fully stop him and take U-Turn (Dragonite too) if needed, you just have no way to take them.
- Another weaknesses is your lack of Scarf. While people seem to like it here "because on a HO you can't get locked etc", it opens your team to many things.
Thanks god, you have Priorities, so it's cool in theory.. in theory because in fact, it will never work like that.
Let's assume that you lose Breloom, Scarf Terrakion will crush the WHOLE team. Same goes for many scarf and for faster pokemons like Stoutland who can spam Return and kill everybody
Once you lost Weavile, Lati@s will just win the game on their own. An offensive Starmie aswell for instance. Venusaur also.
So, you're really weak to many things (if I had to compare with my team) because your defensive backbone is just not good (but in comparison of my team, you're more powerful and flexible for the user). Chomp and Kingdra with no Scarf and Steel and 0 bug resistance (when we know that U-Turn ruins your momentum).
- Another weakness would be Kyurem-B Scarf. "Wow ? what is this guy talking about, he has Breloom". Yes but.. I'll take Scarf Kyu as an example, but it works for almost any "surprise Scarf". Let's say that you got Weavile, he puts Kyurem-B. You'll stay in.
And when I was playing my team, I was just AFRAID as hell of Kyurem-B scarf (and I had Keldeo's scarf, but surprise Scarf force you to sac a pokemon you don't always want to sac just to scout the set). Because, you have no choice, you're forced to stay in and press Low Kick to discover if it's a Scarf, but if it's a Scarf, you lost a really valuable pokemon, and maybe a REALLY valuable one for the match-up. The icying on the cake, you don't 0HKO it with Mach Punch if he is as full life, and if you don't have Fighting Gem ready (if I was the Kyurem-B player, I'd be really patient and use it in late game), you won't even KO it after SR damage.
Aaaand, if Breloom is dead, you probably just lost the game. It works for other surprise scarfs.
Now you'll wonder, "when will I lose my Weavile/Breloom, I'm not dumb !". Of course you're not, but I can think about plenty of situations when you'll be forced to sacrifice one of these mons (just the example of Kyurem-B and surprise scarf could work, imagine he puts Kyu on Weavile, you alost HAVE TO let it die to see the set).
Let's say, you got Deoxys-D and he leads Scizor, then U-Turn to Terrakion. You did SR the first turn, and now you decide to Spikes/Taunt as he finishes you with Terrak (or something like that). And the, he substitute.
This, is, terrible. Because now, you're forced to sac someone. If you can sac Kingdra, but Rock Gem SE or LO CC can OHKO you.
You can Sac Chomp also but you lose your main wall breaker. You can try to 1V1 wih Gar, but you'll have to rely on a Focus Miss and he could sub untill he gets this Salac Boost.
Aaand, probably that in the end, you'll have to use this Fighting Gem and show Breloom's set (because Weavile can't outspeed Salac version when it's activated). You lose the momentum in the process and Breloom is facing now a pokemon that can outspeed and kill it (why not Latios) and you'll have to switch or sac it (depends if you predict a Scarf version or not).
And obviously, who knows if he will not just switch out ? In the end you lost Deoxys-D and a pokemon for a short momentum and SR (or SR+Spikes, but then Terrak did SD!).
- Keldeo is almost autowin if Scarfed. Let's face it, HPumps will do a ton and Kingdra can be walled easily (so he will just switch out if needed), on the other hand, the only pokemons able to take Secret Swords are Deoxys-D and Gar.. and those two won't be alive for very long. I had Dragonite and this was a huge plus for me. But even with Dragonite, Keldeo was a top threat. Here, I just think that he kills the whole team with few efforts. And the LO/ExpertBelt w/e offensive set with CM for instance.. he really kills everybody, you'd have to have Gar and Fighting Gem ready I think (but he can just switch and sweep your later).
If I spoke so much about the weaknesses it is not to bash the team for free, but to give the best analysis I could. Moreover, those weaknesses are pretty symptomatic of a HO team so it's really something hard to avoid. On the other hand, your match-up against a defensive team not using the pokemons that I mentionned is really good.
Now the changes :
As I said, Jimbon changes are really good. Scarf Jirachi over Weavile can help you a lot. However, I can see you being REALLY weak to Sun Venusaur now and you don't fix Volcarona's issue at all.
So, if you want to try something else, I'd opt for a ScarfZor.
A set with U-Turn/Pursuit/BulletPunch/AerialAce could work. The point is, you can lead with it easily if you suspect a lead Volcarona and score a early kill with Aerial Ace (or at least, hit him hard enough to put him in the range of any priority). You lost Weavile, but Scizor can still help you againt Starmie especially with the surprise factor of Scarf Pursuit. Same goes for the non Scarfed Lati@s. I really think that this set could patch many weaknesses. You can also score a surprise kill on Keldeo, take U-Turns, kill Terrakion or Kyurem-B with Bullet Punch and take on of their hit (you don't need to sac a pokemon anymore).
You're still not "fixing" the Sun issue, but at least, Scizor can Bullet Punch Venusaur and force him to HP Fire (thus losing another 10%). Jirachi can't do that. Obviously, his U-Turn hit far more and his coverage is actually really good.
So yup, at the moment, I feel like this set could bring something new in this team, add some cool surprise value and kill many of your threats. You lose "wall breaking" power, but Scizor is an insane asset against any offensive team, like Weavile was, but he got the bulk you need !
(and you can still kill Celebi/Tias for Breloom, you switch in easily, and score a surprise kill with U-Turn, if they play safe and switch away, you won momentum ! Jirachi's U-Turn are too weak sometimes).
Let's say a spread with enough speed to outspeed Zam with Scarf like 16 HP / 252 Atk / 240 Spe Jolly giving you a good HP number aswell.
- Drop Taunt, get HP Fire + Destiny Bond. It even helps you against Venusaur, you need this HP Fire, and Destiny Bond is such a game breaking move.
Give Gengar 244 Spe with HP Fire and put the rest in HP.
- I'm also on the train to change Dragon Tail for Sword Dance on Garchomp. Once again, there is no logical explanation to justify the use of this move here, so I'd drop it for coverage or raw power. Sword Dance deals with the pokemons you mentionned.
THE SETS :
I know I could look like a massiv bitch here by criticizing your team and saying that it does look mine too much. But I believe that it's a legitimate reaction given that the "heart" and the added value of my team is pretty much used here without saying where it's coming from. And if you look at my RMT in my signature, you'll see that I did myself talk about EVERY little idea (even the tiniest one) that I took from someone/something (even when I found it myself, just as a show of respect to people who published it first).
You maybe have imagined the core with Focus Sash HP Fire, LO Weavile, Fighting Gem Breloom etc.. on your own, but even if it's the case, it has been RMTed before so I guess it would not have hurt to talk about it in the Introduction.
Whatever, if you can deal with my bitching, you'll realise that my comment deals with pretty relevant points and I can tell you that I know what I'm talking about given the close nature of our teams.
I truely hope I helped.
And no TL;DR since I want you to read to understand my line of logic x)
Taunt forces the opponent to attack so you get a Destiny kill, ;) that's why it's used Remedy
Sry guys but the stupid browser crushed after me writing for half an hour an answer to all of the rates. All i can say for now is that no Remedy i didn't steal the Deo-D + Gengar + Weavile from you, as i have been using it a long time befoire i saw your RMT. And if i didn't get it from you why should i make a reference to you? I am not being hostile, i am just curious as to why you think that someone owes you a reference just because you used the same thing...
Ok time to answer:
Will try out your idea, thanks a lot!
I have used LO on Breloom before, but i don't like how it decreases its lifespan. Breloom often survives a hit with a sliver of its health, and dying from LO would suck. Not to mention that against sand teams, sand + LO would be too much. Anyway, thx for the rate and your good words!
Lati@s are not that hard to play around because of Weavile. Usually i must sacrifice one Pokemon and then it is game over for the special dragons. Scarf Jirachi is nice but huge set-up bait after it kills something and i can't give any setup chances. Also Weavile traps Starmie and other things too, so i can't remove it.
Finally, WoW is certainly a nice option that i have tried in the past, but Taunt proved to be more useful in general. Whenever i use WoW i put it over D-Bond, as without Taunt stuff such as Volcarona, Dragonite, and Gyarados could set up on it and become really problematic (Dnite has Lum Berry for the WoW, and WoW can miss anyway). Thx for the rate!
Glad you liked the team! I don't need Stone Edge on Garchomp as Outrage is enough to kill Volcarona. Obviously i can't replace Kingdra as it is the center of the team, has sweeping potential, is a very good switch-in to choiced Keldeo, and a good answer to weather teams in general.
Skill Swap is needed to get past Xatu and Espeon. Weavile will have to resort in a coinflip to trap and kill Xatu, and if Xatu decides to stay in it can even live a Night Slash from full health and then cripple me back with Heat Wave (50% chance to OHKO after 1 LO round in sun) or T-Wave. Then Venusaur rapes me with Weavile out of the picture. So i need Skill Swap as i don't want to burden Weavile with too many roles.
About Gengar... The slash thing is completely pointless to mention. If you don't like both being slashed then assume the first. I just slashed both because i use them both frequently and i wanted to let the readers know that both are very good. And also to prevent them from suggesting one of those two moves, as i am already using them.
I am not rly weak to Scizor. Breloom puts it to Sleep, Garchomp OHKOes, Kingdra OHKOes after 2 SR rounds, and Gengar forces it out at least once due to D-Bond (from full health of 'course). The only time when Scizor comes in and gets annoying is against Weavile, meaning that i have to play carefull and not give it many free switch-ins. Even if Scizor gets an SD, Garchomp can survive a +2 LO BP and OHKO back, and same for Kingdra.
Taunt is used on Gengar for many reasons. To prevent hazards from Deo-D, Forre, Skarmory, and Tenta (T-Spikes eat me alive), prevent setup from dangerous Pokemon such as Dnite, Gyarados, and Volcarona, and to prevent healing from Pokemon such as Chansey, Blissey, and Jirachi. Finally Taunt works very good with D-Bond.
The lack of Scarf is nothing too troubling and can be played around. If a scarfer kills one of my pokes then another one of my pokes will come in and setup on its face, that's how HO teams work. Scarf Keldeo revenge kills something? Kingdra can revenge kill after, or Breloom can set-up an SD and then OHKO. Same for Scarf Kyurem-B.
Finally, about ScarfZor. As i said alrdy, i don't want to use a scarfer on the team, as it would give way too many setup chances, which i can't afford.
Anyway, thx for the long rate and the suggestions, and just because a team looks similar to you doesn't mean it was stolen or copied.
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