FRLG in-game tier list
Pokemon are not within any order within a tier.
Only first Pokemon of a line is in the tier list, unless there is a good reason to include their evolved form when catchable, like Dugtrio.
Tiers determined roughly by: usefulness - resources needed to do so. Usefulness is ease of play, while resources are things like money investment on Potions, TMs, spending ages to raise them in the wild or switching them in and out, etc. The entire game is considered.
Assumed is not that you are trying to speedrun or solo the game, but rather just...play through with a team of somewhere between 3 and 6 Pokemon. Maybe we'd need more discussion on things like detours to Power Plant etc, but that's fun too.
I am kinda rusty on this, but this is a sketch. It's also not finished yet by any stretch.
Notable changes since last time:
- All Pokemon in first post now
- Cut out the long list of post-National Dex
- Staryu Low -> Top
- Zubat Top -> Mid
- Mewtwo Limbo -> Mid
- Eevee-Flareon Top -> Mid
- Oddish Top -> Mid
- Bellsprout Top -> Mid
- Moltres Top -> Mid
- Articuno Top -> Mid
- Chansey Mid -> Low
- Jolteon Top -> Mid
- Poliwag Low -> Mid
- Voltorb Low -> Mid
Excluded for unavailability:
This is a pleasant change of pace =)
Mankey is definitely top if you're playing in FireRed because of how early you get him and how easily he beats Brock. Unfortunately he's not available in LG iirc so I'm not sure how his tier placement is dealt with.
I'd consider moving Caterpie up to top as well. You get it so early that getting it to level 10 will be no problem, and once it learns Confusion and Sleep Powder it's pretty amazing thanks to no sleep clause ingame.
Pidgey should actually be low imo due to late evolution and lack of good moves. Wing Attack comes far too late to be actually useful and it's impossible to level up in Mt Moon.
Drowzee seems like a good fit for high. He shines in the section right after you get him and is a useful HM slave for Flash (assuming you bother to get it) right before Rock Tunnel. Hypnosis is golden and he has solid defenses by the time he evolves into Hypno.
Abra is in a bit of a pickle. I would immediately throw him into low because of how hard he is to train, but Kadabra is just absolutely amazing. Averaging it out would put him in mid.
I disagree with Oddish/Belsprout being so great. Oddish gets nothing but like, absorb and acid until level 40 something when it gets petal dance I think. It can't really do anything else except Cut and Flash. Same with Bellsprout except Razor leaf instead of Petal dance which is better at least. The powders do come in handy though. Other than that I agree with what the above people say about Drowzee/Eevee/Pika. Paras and Jiggly are rather useless. Growlithe should be mentioned with Vulpix.
Mid maybe, low definitely not.
Abra is not only hard to train, he is also hard to catch. Basically, Abra is one of the worst Pokemon, and Kadabra one of the best. So he averages out in Mid, I think.
Eevee's moves are kinda meh. Its evolutions are alright, though their moves are...kinda alright. They all get STAB 40 BP moves and Quick Attack, but no :good: moves until late except Vaporeon who can Surf. I think Eevee's three different paths deserve three distinct positions in the tier list...how well Eevee performs most of the time depends on its evolution.
"Finished" a list, feel free to feedback/inquire
[snipped out, list will be in first post now]
The only ones from after the League that seem of any importance to me are the 3 legendary dogs, Moltres and Mewtwo and then evolutions of somewhat decent ones like Crobat, but nearly everything seems garbage. I do want to take the Sevii islands into account qua tiers as well as the Elite Four's Second Wave.
I believe you can catch Moltres before beating the League. It's at One Island and you only need Strength and Rock Smash to get to the part where Moltres is.
So it should be up there with Articuno and Zapdos.
I'm glad that you made this, but I'd like to make a few suggestions:
Lapras - Yes, its late, but if you play your cards right, you can get it with plenty of room to level up. Surf, Ice Beam, Thunderbolt, Confuse Ray is excellent. I'm surprised noone said anything before.
Marowak - Bonemerang, Double Edge, False Swipe, Brick Break. All of these through level up or cheap tm. Bonemerang is essentially earthquake. Double edge is 120 bp without recoil (rock head). Can use rock tomb if you really want. Mid or upper.
Rhydon/Golem - STAB on EQ, and decent rock moves to boot. Brick Break, as mentioned. Then, your choice - explosion on golem, or meghorn on rhydon. Golem gets double edge through level up.
Mr.Mime vs. Hypno
Mr. Mime gets Psychic, Thundebrolt, Magical Leaf. All through level up. Higher special attack and speed. Hypno doesn't get anything more than psychic - yes its defensive, but see my nidoqueen comment below.
Nidoran F - yes you get it early - but you get Nidoran M early as well. And nidoran m hits harder, faster. Nidoqueen takes hits, but its fast-paced in-game. Mid imo.
Zubat - please don't tell me its good - it sucks. golbat as well. once you get to crobat, its great, but golbat is still too frail.
Flareon - want a good fire type? Get rapidash, or arcanine, or ninetales. You'll do better in terms of speed and movepool.
Jolteon - Unless you bp an agility, you're better off with raichu for an electric - you get it early (to beat Misty if you don't have bulba), and it gets brick break off of a comparatively good attack stat (base 90 vs base 65). It gets shadow ball - big deal.
Vaporeon - Surf, Ice beam, acid armor, baton pass. Unless you baton pass an acid armor, its a mediocre water, imo. Better results with Golduck, Slowbro, etc.
Btw, you have both diglett and dugtrio mentioned.
Oh, and response to "abra is horrid, Kadabra is great" - great ball catches abra. However, having only Psychic, Psybeam, Recover, Calm Mind is still a bad choice (see Hypno).
Chansey should probably be placed to low. Stalling really makes for a boring time ingame, and is offensively retarded. Not to mention that he takes forever to catch in the Safari Zone, even longer to get a decent natured one. And if you don't EV train it, then he falls to nearly any physical attack. Not as good as he was in Red/Blue.
Machop, on the other hand, is nearly in the same boat as Mankey. He is obtainable in Rock Tunnel and has a host of good fighting moves to choose from. Machoke does learn Cross Chop level 46, but Guts is a decent ability to employ against enemies who like to status you. I think he should go in mid.
I agree with Magikarp's mid placement. Gyarados is such a useful HM slave.
Really Vaporeon is the best of the Eevee evolutions, the rest should be moved to mid because they are outclassed by something that is found earlier. Plus, they have a shallow movepool. At least Vaporeon can make some use of it.
Zubat definetly for mild, out of top.
Base Stats: HP 40/Attack 45/Defense 35/Speed 55/Sp Att 30/Sp Def 40
Outclassed even by Pidgey, let alone Spearow, both of whom are available more early in the game.
It's first decent move is at lvl 16 - Bite. You won't be scoring any kills at all before, with Leech Life, Supersonic and Astonish, since you're (if you catch it as early as you can) travelling through Mt Moon, encountering only Geodudes and other Zubats and AFAIK trainers that hold nothing weak against Bug/Ghost type attacks. I see no reason at all to use Zubat, but for the eventual Crobat (that apparantly you can only get after the national dex, thus after 90% of the game).
Remove pidgey as a top option - mid at most. It is outclassed by fearow, as Fearow...
...is caught at the same time
...evolves to final faster
...gets drill peck
...has better attacking stats
Raticate is completely outdone by Snorlax in physical attacking. Super Fang is nothing good if it can't really use it. Same for meowth (though payday is useful).
If sandshrew is top, than all the more reason marowak should be.
Electabuzz > raichu. At the power plant, you'll get electabuzz at a decent level. And, not to mention no stone. Same movepool, and gets lightscreen through level up.
Oddish is mid - absorb is 20 base power, no usefulness. Doesn't get petal dance until at least the 30s, and even then, 2-3 turns with confusion. And for a cut slave, use farfetch'd. It gets Fly as well.
Guys, guys, guys. I appreciate the input, but "Spearow > Pidgey, therefore Pidgey to Mid" makes no sense at all. What if Pidgey is still good enough for Top? All Spearow > Pidgey says is just that: Spearow > Pidgey. If Pidgey is still a good Pokemon throughout the game, better than the Mids and the Lows, then it is a good candidate for High.
Vulpix/Growlithe are as behind as Cubone if not worse. They can be alright, but I've shown that "x and y > z, therefore z sucks" is incorrect.
Team Rocket? Full of Poisons.
Celadon gym? 99% Grass/Poison, and some Exeggcute. The only thing he hits neutral is Tangela.
Pokemon Tower? Gastly is totally immune to them unless you Odor Sleuth every one of them or something.
Fushia gym? Poison resists Fighting.
More Team Rocket? More Poisons. Except this time they have more Golbats with Wing Attack.
Saffron gym? A total joke. He ties with the Fighting gym though.
He's simply not good against anything.
What is Psyduck's availiability in FRLG? It learns all the HMs Gyarados does plus Flash. You also need to evolve Magikarp, but that is only an issue early in the game (later on you can just catch a lvl. 20+ and evolve immediately).
Psyduck is Fire Red only
also agree with low placement because by the time you can get him if you got a Abra it sould be a Kadabra who has stab on psychic moves and doesn't learn anything by level that is useful or powerful except a level 50 (if you don't evolve it) hydropump and requires TMs and HMs to be viable but it does have some saving grace in being able to learn 5 out of the 7 HMs in Fire Red making it a fine late HM slave *can't learn cut and fly*
Yeah as a pokemon for battling it sucks but I was thinking strictly using it as a HM slave.
Lets look at a typical tier list - Uber, OU, BL, UU/NU
If soemthing is like top tier, but can be brought down, it is known as OU, right?
If something can perform almost as well as ou pokemon, but doesn't really beat it (and is in fact outclassed in almost every way), isn't it BL?
Same here - Pidgey is great, but spearow is better.
Lapras - level up isn't a problem though. 2 or 3 gyms (if you want to do silph co before koga), victory road, vs. seeker. He'll be up in no time. Same for cubone, especially if you don't have access to Leaf Green.
Marowak has something that not many can claim in FrLg - False Swipe. Most forget that its not a tm, and only a select few learn it.
Mr. Mime - I've got news for you. It comes with confusion as well. And, a much better special attack than hypno.
Nidoran - F is in Leaf Green. M is in Fire Red.
Cubone is found in the tower, 10 levels higher than sandshrew (19) according to my reports.
The thing with Lapras is that it comes at a point in the game where you should already have a high-level Water Pokemon so there's no point in training it.
Is it me or is Squirtle and Vaporeon the only 2 waters you consider good. Then who would you use as water if you didn't choose Squirtle(and didn't want to evolve eevee yet?)
Voltorb can be found right outside Rock Tunnel, and it'll only be 4-5 levels below, nothing the VS seeker can't fix. I use him to feed off the pidgeys and bats, if i don't have pikachu
I think Poliwag can be at mid. You can catch some decent leveled ones with the rod, and being a stone evo, you can easily get Poliwrath. Use stab water gun until you have surf, and you have unlimited brick break tm's from the store. There's also Body Slam and Belly Drum if you're willing to wait.
You can catch level 36+ Ponytas on Kindle Road. Not too bad if you ask me. Nothing the VS seeker can't fix. Same for Tangela on Treasure Beach. They're not too badly underleveled, but you'll be comparing with Oddish/Bellsprout.
Biggest problem with Cubone I'd say is getting a Thick Club. That's only 5% chance on wild Cubones/Marowaks IIRC, which aren't especially common. TC-less Marowak is... flat out worse than Sandslash, so that's not good.
For what it's worth Lapras arrives at level 25 instead of 15 in FRLG, though that's still low at that point.
Why's Staryu low? You can get it by fishing as soon as you beat Pokemon Tower, which isn't so bad timewise, and Starmie has excellent stats and natural Recover. I'd place it in high tier even, personally.
I'd also disagree with putting Flareon (or pretty much any Fire type besides Charmander or Moltres, for that matter) in high on the basis that Fire is a largely pointless type in-game in FRLG. Lots of things hit weakness on Erika so she's not a big deal and it's not a good type for either version of the Elite Four. Piloswine sucks anyways and will probably die to your water type easily, Jynx is effectively weak to most physical attackers and will probably outspeed/status Flareon, and Heracross will go first and probably EQ it into oblivion. That leaves Exeggcutor, which has plenty of other exploitable weaknesses that are better overall for the E4 sequence.
Psyduck as a HM slave, sure. But I believe you do need a non-Old Rod or Surf, so it's kinda late anyway. In time for the water-based HMs, I guess.
Being outclassed by Kadabra means nothing.
BL = uncommon, too powerful for UU
Top Tier = having most of
- high availability
- no need to handhold
- can use HMs
- doesn't need resources (Potions, (unbuyable) TMs) to be good
- performs well against upcoming gyms and Elite Four
Mid Tier is having some of that, but also other things to offset it.
So, looking at Pidgey, it has:
- almost the highest availability, tied with Rattata and beaten only by your starter
- no need to handhold, or at least no more than your starter, because it only comes about 2-3 levels lower
- it gets Fly
- it's decent enough on its own to not need TMs or Potions
- it doesn't exactly rule gyms or Elite Four, but it doesn't back down on most of it either
He sucks in these gyms. He can't perform well because he is underleveled. They aren't helping his low level, they're rubbing it in. Same for Victory Road...by that time, if Lapras isn't caught up yet, it really is screwed.
Mid he goes.
Poliwag, Slowpoke and Shellder can be obtained same way as Staryu with the Good Rod, that is after Pokemon Tower. You can get some at level 24 or higher, that's about 5 levels below.
And the first 3 Sevii islands can be accessed after defeating Blaine, so you actually have decent-leveled Ponytas, Tangelas, Slowpokes, and even Persians to catch, around level 35-ish.
sandshrew is easy to catch, and good until you get to around level 30 and realize that your only attack is slash. He doesn't even get a ground move until level 50 or so, and then it's sand tomb, which is an awful move, and I hate burning TMs in a runthrough
You can give Dig to Sandslash as a STAB move if you like. Not many other better candidates for Dig
You get cubone before Erika, after the game corner fiasco. All you need is the scope lens.
Lapras - I hope you don't mean that it comes at too low of a level - its ranked as one of the best pokemon in the in-game. Despite the low level, it is very easy to level up. Blaine, Giovanni, Victory Road - he'll be levelled up in no time.
Lets look at the other options...
Vaporeon - surf, ice beam, high hp. its ok, but mediocre. Oh, you get it early
Blastoise - its a starter, so its not really a competitor.
Gyarados - lol, its a water type with great movepool and no special attack stat.
Poliwrath - I loled even harder.
Starmie/Slowking - too late
Tentacruel is tempting. A bit late, though. And almost no movepool.
Seaking - I wouldn't be caught dead using it.
Dewgong - too late
I like how you call Staryu too late when you get it, you know, earlier than Lapras. Anyway, competition among types hardly matters, as I said.
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