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-   -   (Gen 3) SB2 server preparations (http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65453)

eric the espeon Dec 31st, 2009 11:35:19 AM
SB2 server preparations
 
A few times I have seen people display interest in playing ADV on an active good simulator, and SB2 seems to provide the perfect opportunity to make this a reality. Apparently it will be much easier to makes changes to the game mechanics on SB2 than SB1, and there seem to be very few complex changes between the generations (with the notable exception of Hidden Power being sometimes special and sometimes physical, and Choice lock's effect changing subtly). Other than those two it should be a matter of writing up a new species file, collecting the minor differences, and removing everything new.

  • Remove all DP Pokemon
    Pokemon
  • Remove all DP items
    Items
    Berries
  • Change DP Mail to RS Mail
    DP
    RS
  • Remove all DP Moves
    Moves
  • Remove all DP abilities
    Abilities
  • Edit learnsets of Pokemon to correspond with their ADV learnset. The species file format is here (warning HUGE page), I'll probably put up a separate thread for a group project to write it.
  • Undo the Physical/Special Split. Either change each move to it's correct type, or change the code so the phy/specialness of a move is determined directly by the type. If someone is available to do the second it would probably be much easier.
  • Switch mechanics need changing, the new Pokemon switches in directly after the old one is KOed rather than waiting until the end of turn.
  • Redo the effects of various moves, items, and abilities that changed between the generations. Partial list below.

  • Shadow Tag does not allow other Shadow Tag Pokemon to flee.
  • Hidden Power is not special when it is a physical type (see undo the Phy/Special split for more info).
  • Choice Band:
    • RS: "If a Pokemon holding a Choice Band uses Pursuit against an opponent that switches out on the Pursuit user's first use of Pursuit since it switched in, the Pursuit user can select a new move next turn."
    • DP: no such effect
    • RS: "If a Pokémon with this item is Tricked or uses Trick, it can select a new move next turn, even if the item that was given to it is another Choice item. If, however, the Trick comes before they use a move, then the Pokémon is still locked in as though no Trick had taken place. For example, Alakazam uses Trick while holding a Choice Band, then Ursaring uses Swords Dance (in the same turn), Ursaring would have to use Swords Dance next turn, but Alakazam could do anything, even if it gained a Choice Band in return."
    • DP:
      If a Pokémon with a Choice Band is Tricked by / uses Trick on a Pokémon that does not have a Choice item itself, the Pokémon that has the Choice item after the Trick will be free to use whatever move it wants on the next turn only if it went first. That Pokémon will be free to select whichever move it likes regardless of whether it was originally the Pokémon with the Choice item. The Pokémon that moved second will always be locked into whatever move it used on the turn it was Tricked if it is the one holding the Choice item after the Trick. However, if both Pokémon are holding a Choice item, and either Pokémon uses Trick, then both Pokémon will be locked in to whatever move they used on the turn of the Trick(s).
      For example, if Choice Band Jirachi is facing Choice Band Bronzong, and Jirachi uses Trick while Bronzong uses Stealth Rock, Jirachi will be stuck using Trick the next turn, and Bronzong will be stuck using Stealth Rock and therefore have virtually no reason to stay in, meaning Jirachi, if it decides to stay in, will have no choice but to Trick the Choice Band onto the incoming Pokémon (unless it has Sticky Hold or Multitype). To expound on this, if the Bronzong user switches in Swampert to the Trick, Jirachi would be free to use whatever it wants. But if it uses Trick again and Swampert stays in to do whatever, then the next turn, Jirachi will be forced to use Trick, and not something like Reflect or U-turn.
  • Sitrus Berry will heal 30 HP, not 25%
  • Counter affects all Hidden Powers, even special ones.
  • Remove Sand Storm SpD boost.
  • Remove "Acid Rain" glitch.
  • Remove the weather effects Gravity, Tailwind and Trick Room.
  • Remove Toxic Spikes and SR field effects.
  • Remove effects of Embargo, Heal Block, Lucky Chant, Aqua Ring (not required, but for tidiness's sake..).
  • Light Ball only doubles Special Attack.
  • Blizzard is not affected by hail.
  • Unlike in DP (but same as Pt and Battle Revolution) Thunder can't ever hit through protect in rain.
  • Volt Absorb does not absorb Thunder Wave (target becomes paralysed).
  • The Fire-type immunity to the burn status takes priority over Flash Fire, so Fire types can't absorb Will-O-Wisp.
  • Moves that hit all others in doubles have full power: Explosion, Selfdistruct, Earthquake, Magnitude.
  • Surf hits only opponents in double battles.
  • Struggle's recoil is 1/2 damage dealt, not 25% max HP.
  • Tracing or obtaining Intimidate does not cause it to activate.
  • Hi Jump Kick, no recoil from targeting Ghost-types, 1/8 recoil not 1/2
  • Tickle bypasses Substitute.
  • Substitute doesn't block Yawn.
  • All single type boosting items (like BlackGlasses) give only a 10% boost.
Very simple move changes:
  • Outrage has 90 BP
  • Hi Jump Kick has 85 BP
  • Leaf Blade has 70 BP
  • Petal Dance has 70 BP
  • Fly has 70 BP
  • Dig has 60 BP
  • Dive has 60 BP
  • Zap Cannon has 100 BP
  • Rock Smash has 20 BP
  • Jump Kick has 70 BP
  • Flash has 70% acc
  • Recover has 20 PP
  • Absorb has 20 PP
  • Mega Drain has 10 PP
  • Giga Drain has 5 PP
  • Crunch has a chance to lower SpD not Def
  • Acid lowers Def, not SpD
  • Charge doesn't boost SpD
  • Stockpile doesn't boost Def or SpD
  • Taunt always and only works for 2 turns (wears off at the end of the turn after it is used, regardless of whether the user went first or second).
  • Overheat is a contact move
  • Lock-On has 100% acc (not always hits)
  • Foresight has 100% acc (not always hits)
  • Mind Reader has 100% acc (not always hits)
  • Spite reduces the target move by 2-5 PP
  • Various other PP and BP changes (post ones you find)
New

  • You cannot have more than one form of Deoxys on a team since the form is determined by the game cartage you are using.


What you can do to help

There are still quite a few things to be worked out, for one someone will need to host the server. We also could do with a few people to volunteer to do some programming. When we start work on the species file there will be a lot of grunt work to do, writing it up and checking against various dexes. For now the most useful thing would be to find changes in moves, items, abilities, and other game mechanics and post them here (preferably with a source so I don't have to go tracking one down).

I can't do this on my own, the help of everyone who wants to make this happen is needed. This is not currently an official project and will rely on public support to work.

zarator Dec 31st, 2009 11:39:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat eric the espeon (Post 2393168)
Hypnosis has 70% acc
Incorrect. Hypnosis has 60% accuracy in RSE. The 70% accuracy is only a D/P thing.

I will let you know if I find other mechanics stuff to change.

RBG Dec 31st, 2009 12:20:40 PM
# Undo the Physical/Special Split. Again, need to work up a big list of what needs changing. Much easier than move checking though.

This will be easier to do by altering the code to judge based on the move type. That would make it work with Hidden Power much better

Recover had 20 PP in Gen 3
Dig had 60 BP
Fly had 70 BP
Dive has 60 BP

You also need to edit the mechanics for when a Pokemon comes in, (i.e. A pokemon comes in right away after a previous is knocked out, so it would get leftovers recovery the turn it switches in I believe.)

cantab Dec 31st, 2009 12:48:12 PM
Doubles' KOs are quite different. In RSE, a KO'd Pokemon is immediately replaced. It can then potentially be hit by a subsequent move. In the extreme case, Team A can knock out both of Team B's Pokemon with a move like Surf or Earthquake, then knock out both replacement Pokemon with the same move. (I think RB Golbat mentioned this above; the difference is much more noticeable in doubles than in singles)

Surf only hits the opponents, not the ally.

Flash is lower accuracy, 70% I think.

Lock on moves (Lock On, Mind Reader, Foresight, and Odour Sleuth I think) have finite accuracy, meaning they can miss.

No Pokemon can be at level 1. Bred Pokemon cannot be below level 5. (Admittedly this isn't too relevant.)

Secret Power and Nature Power have different effects in RSE than in DDPt. I'm not sure what terrain Shoddy assumes - if it's building, then Nature Power becomes Swift, not Tri Attack as in gen 4.

supermarth64 Dec 31st, 2009 4:54:52 PM
Hi Jump Kick has 85 power in RSE, 100 power in DPPt.

Jibaku Dec 31st, 2009 4:56:08 PM
- Counter should affect all Hidden Power, regardless of type.
- Moves that hit all targets in doubles have full power (Explosion, Earthquake)
- Moves that hit both opponents in doubles have half power (Surf, Rock Slide)
- Zap Cannon has 100 BP
- Rock Smash has 20 BP

zarator Dec 31st, 2009 5:08:31 PM
Crunch lowers Special Defense, not Defense. Shadow Ball still lowers Special Defense, though.

dbolt Dec 31st, 2009 6:58:26 PM
- Absorb has 20 PP
- Mega Drain has 10 PP
- Giga Drain has 5 PP
- Jump Kick has 70 BP
- Acid lowers Defense, not Special Defense
- Charge doesn't boost Special Defense
- Stockpile doesn't boost Defense and Special Defense
- Taunt only works for 2 turns

AJC Dec 31st, 2009 7:54:44 PM
you won't get damaged when using high jump kick or jump kick on a ghost type pokemon it will just have no effect unlike in 4th gen were you will take damage i also belive the self damage formula is diffrent from 4th gen but i can't remember for sure.

Spite randomly deletes 2-5 PP from the foe's last move unlike 4th gen where the foe always loses 4.

Nature power is always Swift in link battles because link battles terrain is always set to stadium

Secret Power effect is always PAR in link battles for the same reason above

Intimdate doesn't activate when a pokemon gains it via skill swap and trace due to the way Intimdate is coded in 3rd gen.

Volt absorb doesn't work on T-wave and the move takes effect.

Overheat on the 3rd gen carts is a Contact move for some reason.

Tickle bypasses and hits thru a Sub.

Fire types Immunity to Burn takes Priority over Flash Fire making Will-O-Wisp unable to activate Flash Fire on fire types.

thats all i can remember of the top of my head.

eric the espeon Jan 1st, 2010 11:18:47 AM
Great finds everyone! Keep it up. I've added everything that I can find confirmation for to the OP.

Quote:
This will be easier to do by altering the code to judge based on the move type. That would make it work with Hidden Power much better
That would be a much better solution if a programmer is available who can make that change.

Quote:
Lock on moves (Lock On, Mind Reader, Foresight, and Odour Sleuth I think) have finite accuracy, meaning they can miss.
This disagrees with the Smogon dex, do you have a source?

Quote:
No Pokemon can be at level 1. Bred Pokemon cannot be below level 5. (Admittedly this isn't too relevant.)
I don't think that level restrictions are possible to program into SB2.

Quote:
Secret Power and Nature Power have different effects in RSE than in DDPt. I'm not sure what terrain Shoddy assumes - if it's building, then Nature Power becomes Swift, not Tri Attack as in gen 4.
Secret Power has the same effect in both gens on the link terrain (but Smogon's ADV page was kinda messed up, it had Wi-Fi and PBR terrains listed for the third gen.. fixed.).

Quote:
i also belive the self damage formula is diffrent from 4th gen but i can't remember for sure.
Confirmation, source, new formula?

Quote:
Spite randomly deletes 2-5 PP from the foe's last move unlike 4th gen where the foe always loses 4.
Getting conflicting info on this, the Smogon page says 4 for 4th gen, 1-5 for 3rd. Bulba is the same for 4th, but 2-5 for 3rd gen. Serebii very helpfully says "Opponent's last move loses 2-5 HP." for both generations... I suspect that it is 2-5, but since this goes against the Smogon page can someone check/confirm it? If Smogon is wrong I will edit the page.

Quote:
Intimdate doesn't activate when a pokemon gains it via skill swap and trace due to the way Intimdate is coded in 3rd gen.
Again, conflicts with Smogon's page.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat smogon's rs page
Activates even if gained through Trace, Skill Swap, or Role Play.
Needs confirmation before I add it.

Quote:
Tickle bypasses and hits thru a Sub.
Going to need confirmation, can't find it in any dexes.

cantab Jan 1st, 2010 11:55:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat eric the espeon (Post 2393168)
  • Choice Band:
    • DP:
      If a Pokémon with a Choice Band is Tricked by / uses Trick on a Pokémon that does not have a Choice item itself, the Pokémon that has the Choice item after the Trick will be free to use whatever move it wants on the next turn only if it went first. That Pokémon will be free to select whichever move it likes regardless of whether it was originally the Pokémon with the Choice item. The Pokémon that moved second will always be locked into whatever move it used on the turn it was Tricked if it is the one holding the Choice item after the Trick. However, if both Pokémon are holding a Choice item, and either Pokémon uses Trick, then both Pokémon will be locked in to whatever move they used on the turn of the Trick(s).
      For example, if Choice Band Jirachi is facing Choice Band Bronzong, and Jirachi uses Trick while Bronzong uses Stealth Rock, Jirachi will be stuck using Trick the next turn, and Bronzong will be stuck using Stealth Rock and therefore have virtually no reason to stay in, meaning Jirachi, if it decides to stay in, will have no choice but to Trick the Choice Band onto the incoming Pokémon (unless it has Sticky Hold or Multitype). To expound on this, if the Bronzong user switches in Swampert to the Trick, Jirachi would be free to use whatever it wants. But if it uses Trick again and Swampert stays in to do whatever, then the next turn, Jirachi will be forced to use Trick, and not something like Reflect or U-turn.
A minor point here - there would in fact be a reason for Bronzong to stay in: to force Jirachi out unless it wants to have all its Trick PP stalled away, and then after Jirachi's out Bronzong can switch out without the incoming Pokemon being Tricked the Choice Band.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat eric the espeon (Post 2394764)
[Lock on moves having finite accuracy] This disagrees with the Smogon dex, do you have a source?
Actually, I made a slight confusion. Foresight and Odor Sleuth have 100% accuracy - source: Bulbapedia. Those moves drop the opponent's Evasion to zero and remove the ghost types immunities.
Mind Reader and Lock On, which have a different effect (ensuring the next move hits), I'm not sure about. I'll check in game and come back with the results.

EDIT: Confirmed that in Pokemon Emerald, the in-game description of Lock On states is has 100 Accuracy, and that it can miss.(Tested with my Magneton after allowing a wild Trapinch to Sand Attack me)
I'd assume Mind Reader would be the same, but I will try and check that fairly soon.

AJC Jan 1st, 2010 6:10:27 PM
i've checked on my Ruby and Emeralds carts and everything i said works as i said

and for HJK and JK miss recoil appears to be capped at 1/4 of the damage you would had dealt.

tryed trace Gardevoir on a Gyarados dos intimdated got the trace message and no effect confirming

tryed the same in emerald with Mightyenas same thing trace pokemon traces but the traced intimdate doesn't trigger.

Then tryed skill swap after getting imtimdated which also caused nothing to happen which sould put the nail on this coffin.

Spite indeed is randomly 2-5. it says so on the move discription

the reason for the 3rd gen dex saying otherwise is because of some sorta copypaste job infact alot of the reasons your getting conflicting statements is because of the amount of copypaste.

Redtype Jan 3rd, 2010 6:23:52 PM
When a Pokemon uses Struggle it takes 1/2 of the damage dealt to the opponent, not 25% of it's max. HP.

eric the espeon Jan 3rd, 2010 8:31:26 PM
Quote:
A minor point here - there would in fact be a reason for Bronzong to stay in: to force Jirachi out unless it wants to have all its Trick PP stalled away, and then after Jirachi's out Bronzong can switch out without the incoming Pokemon being Tricked the Choice Band.
That's to do with the strategy/description, not the mechanics of the item so nothing needs to be changed for the server. Could be changed, but it's not relevant to this thread.

Quote:
Actually, I made a slight confusion. Foresight and Odor Sleuth have 100% accuracy - source: Bulbapedia. Those moves drop the opponent's Evasion to zero and remove the ghost types immunities.
Mind Reader and Lock On, which have a different effect (ensuring the next move hits), I'm not sure about. I'll check in game and come back with the results.

EDIT: Confirmed that in Pokemon Emerald, the in-game description of Lock On states is has 100 Accuracy, and that it can miss.(Tested with my Magneton after allowing a wild Trapinch to Sand Attack me)
I'd assume Mind Reader would be the same, but I will try and check that fairly soon.
The rest of the sources generally agree on 100 acc, not always hits so I'm adding it. Would still be good to have in game confirmation.

Quote:
and for HJK and JK miss recoil appears to be capped at 1/4 of the damage you would had dealt.
The recoil is lower, but not 1/4 from anywhere I see. Set it to 1/8 as that is what all the sources say.

If you mean capped at 1/4 of the target's max HP not the 1/2 in DP, please test and confirm.

Quote:
i've checked on my Ruby and Emeralds carts and everything i said works as i said
Have you tested tickle/sub?

Added all others, keep them coming!

Reflect Suicune Jan 6th, 2010 7:50:34 PM
Saying "Taunt lasts two turns" is not quite correct, Taunt wears off at the end of the next turn, regardless of whether the user went first or second (somewhat similar to Wish in coding, I would assume)

Also posting to confirm the Intimidate thing. It is definitely true that it does not work with Trace or anything else... if you don't already have the Intimidate ability when you switch out, it will not activate.

I also faintly remember another issue with Intimidate and both sides switching simultaneously, but I really am not sure about that

The whole "there is no target!" issue does not exist in RSE... RB Golbat mentioned it but I will elaborate.

A fainted Pokemon is replaced immediately, and the turn continues as it would have had a Pokemon not fainted. Meaning Poison, Burn, Leftovers, etc... all still trigger for both sides, and the user that did not faint is still forced to use whatever attack they selected rather than simply skipping their turn

Edit:

Spite does in fact remove 2-5 as suggested.

Also worth noting that Beat Up STILL runs off of Base Attack/ Defense, even though it is now of a Special-type

AJC Jan 7th, 2010 2:59:16 AM
it was annoying to set it up but on the carts since no trainer in 3rd gen outside the battle tower/frontier uses sub and none of the natural learners of the move have it at the levels they can have in the wild (tested with Emerald and Ruby in link battles) i can confirm tickle is hitting past a sub in 3rd gen.

this doesn't work in 4th gen.

eric the espeon Jan 7th, 2010 5:38:49 AM
Updated OP.

Wichu Jan 7th, 2010 6:08:59 AM
I can do the GBA movesets and move power/accuracy changes if needed; I have the 3rd gen data availabe, and could convert it to the correct format. Event moves may need to be added by hand, though.

Jumpman16 Jan 7th, 2010 10:14:16 AM
Is there any way that this can be married with the source code for SB2 that is already out there? ete and I talked about this briefly yesterday and we would love for those with actual programming ability to take charge of this endeavor so it can become an "official" project. Don't let ete's efforts go to waste!

eric the espeon Jan 7th, 2010 12:09:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat Wichu (Post 2404619)
I can do the GBA movesets and move power/accuracy changes if needed; I have the 3rd gen data availabe, and could convert it to the correct format. Event moves may need to be added by hand, though.
That would be absolutely brilliant, would the lists you could make be derived from a single game or moves learned and taught across all the ADV games? Adding event moves (even including XD) would be vastly easier than writing up the list from scratch, or trying to edit the DP species file.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat Jumpman16 (Post 2404717)
Is there any way that this can be married with the source code for SB2 that is already out there? ete and I talked about this briefly yesterday and we would love for those with actual programming ability to take charge of this endeavor so it can become an "official" project. Don't let ete's efforts go to waste!
Maybe it would be best to wait until the SB2 code is finished (or very, very close) before making changes, otherwise you need to keep track of all the changes and transfer them, and there may be some changes that cause our fixes not to work? I don't know for sure. Collecting lists of what needs to be changed will be helpful no matter how the project unfolds.

And yes, if someone who can program and make this a reality wants to take this on I would be very happy for them to take change. If someone is willing to give this the "official" stamp it would also be great.

I remember talking to Doug some time ago, iirc he said that it would be possible to implement multiple metagames on one server, but that it would be much more simple to have multiple servers. So that is probably what we should do, at least to start with.

Edit: Also, Vader started this for RBY (off Smogon in a mildly chaotic way, it will be moved here at some point) a while back, and august expressed interest in leading a the GSC version of this on irc yesterday. Past generations here we come!

RBG Jan 7th, 2010 12:39:49 PM
Do we know the exact formula for Damage in the past games?

cantab Jan 7th, 2010 12:56:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat eric the espeon (Post 2404845)
Edit: Also, Vader started this for RBY (off Smogon in a mildly chaotic way, it will be moved here at some point) a while back, and august expressed interest in leading a the GSC version of this on irc yesterday. Past generations here we come!
This leads to something I'm interested in, which is the possibility of cross-generation play. Each generation has its own distinctive aspects, and being able to choose from them all might be really interesting - giving essentially nearly 1300 Pokemon to use. Obviously it's going beyond original game mechanics.

eric the espeon Jan 7th, 2010 1:31:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat RB Golbat (Post 2404878)
Do we know the exact formula for Damage in the past games?
The RBY one is here (assuming their research is accurate). The order of variables should be the same for GSC since it was built of the same code, but we can't be totally sure. I don't know about ADV, it may well be the same as DPP.. but I have not found a site with enough detail to be useful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat cantab (Post 2404899)
This leads to something I'm interested in, which is the possibility of cross-generation play. Each generation has its own distinctive aspects, and being able to choose from them all might be really interesting - giving essentially nearly 1300 Pokemon to use. Obviously it's going beyond original game mechanics.
You would have to pick one set of game mechanics, and add the Pokemon from another generation to it.. it could be an interesting experiment (would GSC mechanics cause DPP to become a stallfest, even with the diversity?), and trying DPP Pokemon in RBY was actually one of the ideas of vader's project.. But it would almost certainly not become an at all widely played metagame, for the simple reason that it's "not Pokemon".

What I would be very interested in would be the usage stats. As far as I am aware, there was never detailed or reliable usage stats at any point in Pokemon history until SB. Wonder how closely experience will tie into the new reality, and how accurate the old OU/BL lines will be.

Xia Jan 7th, 2010 2:04:58 PM
Working on the items list (using Serebii and Bulbapedia's item list for reference and listing all items with in-battle effects):

Items

Berries

It should also be noted that the Enigma Berry is different in DPP than it is in RSE.

Enigma Berry becomes an E-Reader Berry in RSE, but is a standard Berry in DPP that recovers HP when the target is hit by any super effective attack.
Mail (DPP)

Mail (RSE)

Super Jan 7th, 2010 6:04:24 PM
I wanted to mention, for the sake of this, that there is a moves.xml and moves.js in the resources folder of the SB2 server. It should be very, very easy to go and make changes to moves and what they do, tedious more than anything else. There are also species and item files for the same purpose, so the only thing I see that may have some difficulty are the mechanics, which might have some files floating around and if not, Colin should be able to move more "mechanics stuff" to the text files.

EDIT: Or you can find where it is in the source and make the appropriate changes, but it'd be honestly better if you only had to change the text files to make it work from a purist point of view.

EDIT2: Sorry I can't be of any real use, but I remember something being mentioned about explosion ending the turn or not, some different behavior. Probably someone will remember what I meant.


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