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Something that works. Maybe. Haven't tried.
Been wanting to make something like this for a while to show how broken LK Lax is. Untested [for obvious reasons], so not really tried and true.
Tyranitar (M) @ Leftovers - Crunch - Dynamicpunch - Pursuit - Thunderbolt Part 1 of 2. Handles Ghosts, that otherwise give Snorlax trouble. Dynamicpunch so I don't end up being walled by something as stupid as Blissey, or some brave Snorlax. Doubles as a mixed sweeper against lesser teams. Snorlax (M) @ Leftovers - Belly Drum - Body Slam/Return - Lovely Kiss - Rest Part 2 of 2. LK should be bannable on Snorlax. This is why. Starmie @ Leftovers - Rapid Spin - Recover - Reflect - Surf Baits said Ghost, if there is one behind that spiker. Reflect allows for reckless drum. Covers everything Machamp. Still stick with Surf > Psychic because I don't care about Gengar switch-ins, or if Tentacruel tries to setup against me, and with Reflect, it still handles Machamp just fine. This lets me do something against the odd Marowak setup, or Rhydon, or whatever other hard hitter Raikou had to switch out against. Raikou @ Leftovers - Reflect - Rest - Roar - Thunderbolt Standard phazer part 1. Walls a surprisingly large number of mixed sweepers, especially with Reflect. Also, more reckless drum. An electric is needed on any team that doesn't want to be last Poke Vaporeon'd. Contemplating between this and Ttar as the starter. Skarmory (M) @ (No Item) - Drill Peck - Rest - Thief - Whirlwind Standard phazer part 2. Steals from something useful, hopefully. Maybe Curse instead. Idk, untested. Miltank (F) @ Leftovers - Body Slam/Return - Growl - Heal Bell - Milk Drink Utility. This also walls a surprising number of mixed sweepers. There's not too many holes that let offensive Pokemon setup. My Snorlax/Ttar both hit your common sweeper hard, Raikou/Starmie both pass screens, no physical sweeper sets up against Skarm, and Miltank handles every curser just fine (and Return does more than enough to a Drumlax to prevent it from drumming). LK Nido gives me problems. Tyranitar/Starmie would generally be the best sacrifice depending on their team. |
Oh God no, not LK Drumlax! It's going to kill us all!
You probably know more than I what you're doing, but I can try to throw some remarks at you regarding your uncertainties: Is Ttar really a good lead? Personally, I can't think of any lead at the moment that he matches up against better than Raikou. Raikou even gets to set up Reflect, while Tyranitar is met by Suicune or something else that walls/threatens it as it launches off a (probably) resisted attack. Perhaps I'm underestimating the fact that his movepool can scare people into making silly predictions from turn 1, and overestimating the number of good switch-ins to Ttar, I'll let you be the judge of that. However, my vote goes to lead Raikou, though I guess since this is GSC, it doesn't matter too terribly much. BS/Return on Lax: Personally, I'd go with the power. Ideally, Skarm will be put to sleep anyway, and isn't BS most useful if you have a Marowak waiting to capitalize off of combined FP/Flinch Hax? Besides, it'd be pretty annoying if you were to paralyze Skarm on the switch instead of sleeping it, forcing you to rely on FP to incapacitate Skarm. My vote is curse for Skarm. Gives you that extra bit of Defense you'll need for Drumlax and Clubwak as you try to phaze them. Thief has the potential to ruin either one of these guys, and can lead to very nasty mindgames, but at the end of the day, it takes a hella lot of prediction to not ultimately be a waste of a moveslot. I've been disappointed by Thief skarm's performance in the past, as it more often than not stole lefties from something less than game-breaking, such as Raikou, Cloyster, or even the odd Forry. I really wouldn't know whether to put BS or Return on Miltank. Probably Return to guarantee that Drumlax won't set up on you, and because everyone expects Miltank to try to paralyze with BS anyway. Also, an idea I had while thinking about Ttar: is Tbolt, the bog standard for the ghostbuster set, really the best choice? It's meant to hit Skarm and Suicune, right? Well, Skarm shouldn't be switching into Ttar anyway, and ST Cune doesn't mind Tbolt too much, though it can be an effective deterrent at low %'s. Still, I feel that this Ttar set leaves him open to a possible Marowak switch-in, and frankly, I'd rather give Suicune a free switch than give Marowak an easy switch. I realize that Crunch does ~1/3 to Marowak, but is that enough? Or does it not matter, since you'll likely be using Pursuit to kill the ghost as your opponent switches to Marowak, and then you'll just bring in Skarm anyway? |
Why not Double-Edge on Snorlax?
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pokemon master coming through stand back
Better rethink your resiliency against the true offensive powerhouses of this generation. Reflect + Surf Starmie combined with Skarmory actually do a good job relative to what most teams have but you only get one chance to steal Marowak's Thick Club and Curse/Meditate Machamp still kicks your ass. There's not much you can do about it though, they beat everything given the proper support. Tbolt is fine on T-Tar there, Dynamicpunch is what needs to be dumped. Blissey isn't "walling" T-Tar anyway unless it has Growl, in which case Dynamicpunch won't help unless you hit first shot and it hits itself in confusion. (Woo, 25% chance good work.) Just use Rock Slide or Ice Beam or whatever. An Electric pokémon without Hidden Power is not worth using, yo. Go ahead and use Body Slam on Miltank. You're already using Growl, might as well use Body Slam for the PAR chance or you're just using a moveset that is better done by Blissey. |
@Mr.E: Wait what? Stealing Thick Club definitely isn't a priority. I'll settle with Leftovers from Suicune/Skarmory/Snorlax/something that doesn't heal.
Curse Machamp running Cross Chop has less than a 1/4 (?) chance to KO Starmie before its PP runs out (assuming all 8 goes towards hitting Starmie). And half (?) the time it's successful doing that, it won't have enough to KO anyone else. Machamp needs CH hits, consecutive ones, at the correct time to get starmie off Reflect. Then it needs to connect at least 2 more CCs to kill Starmie. I don't remember how I got these values, but it's in the right ballpark -- odds are definitely against Machamp. Try it if you don't believe me. One running Vital Throw just doesn't do enough damage. All the while, Starmie 3HKOs with a CH. DP is more so for Snorlax, and the odd mirror match. Mostly for the former. Thinking about Rock Slide. Ignoring the Smogon ban on HP legends, you're still wrong. Growl Blissey certainly does not do a better job than Miltank. I don't even think that statement makes any sense. Your first option against a Curselax should not be an active Blissey by any stretch. @Magnuss: DE is an option too. But assuming you sleep Skarmory, I don't think that really matters. @Jorgen: The lead thing is really up for grabs. Ttar does give me some early damage, chip damage if you will. Raikou does a better job scouting. Paralysis always comes in handy for a team that's not terribly fast. I can't think of an exact example atm, but there probably are several instances where it may prove to be better. Both are, more or less, 3HKOs on Skarm, but it's still really a tossup between the three I guess. Tbolt is hardly the standard for Tyranitar, if he even has a standard. If anything, I'd say Fire Blast is. Tbolt has a horrendous chance of killing Suicune (never, bar CH). Rock Slide might prove to be better though, for Tyranitar. Might even end up with Crunch, Pursuit, Rock Slide, Rest should I go even more defensive with this team. I'm not sure yet. On the whole, I just realized this is a horrible example of how dominant LK Snorlax could be. Fire Blast/Flamethrower would probably be more effective than LK on a team like this. |
two Reflects AND Growl is a bit overkill. I know you want to "reckless Drum" and all, but I mean, it's not like you're using weak pokemon or anything. is Raikou really that useless besides being fast and having high SpDef? are you really that paranoid of fast sweepers?
with only one real status move (which isn't much of a surprise anymore), ie without any kind of "real" paralysis and no poison support, and without Spikes, you may have two Reflects and Growl, but you're, in a way, prone to Explosion teams which kind of thrive off of paralysis. Explosion teams have the advantage when THEY get to decide when to Explode, and when you don't have anything that can really force them to do anything drastic, they can switch back and forth just as much as you do. also, it's my opinion that every GSC team needs a Sleep Talker. otherwise one of your pieces is completely out of commission when I switch in Exeggutor on Starmie or Raikou--and when you lead with Tyranitar, it's not like you have some crazy surprise waiting for me. or when I match your Tyranitar lead with my Nidoking lead (both Nidoking and Exeggutor are prevalent on Explosion teams). or when I bust out natalie (LK/ML/IB/Nightmare Jynx for the uninitiated) on your team. you might be able to contain most mixed attackers, but there are some that will still give you problems--you mentioned Nidoking already, but he isn't quite the only one. a great one is the underrated Porygon2; Cursing isn't his job doncha know! I think his best set is Recover/DE/Thunder Wave/ElecAtk--Ice Beam is the most popular but I think Thunder(bolt) is better, Steelix isn't wreaking havoc on teams and Rhydon isn't popular anymore (he should be though). it's great because your team is actually pretty fast--Starmie, Raikou, and Miltank heavily rely on their Speed to be effective--and the only thing that can really counter it is Tyranitar, which is relying on a 50% accurate move with 8 PP and no recovery! P2 could even sit there and let Tyranitar miss a couple of times since it has Recover, and should you opt for Rock Slide, P2 definitely wins. everything else is either crippled by Thunder(bolt), hit for an always decent chunk by DE, or they could just get hit with Thunder Wave! paralysis is making a comeback in this hypothetical GSC metagame I gotta speculate! also that Porygon2 set I mentioned is great for those pesky Suicunes who think they can just wall mixed attackers! all of these teams are looking very same-y these days...and it seems like they rely on everyone using standard sets. I guess it's effective, but making an effective counter pokemon isn't exactly too hard... |
Raikou really doesn't do too much after being a premier special wall, especially not without spikes support. Sure I could throw on Crunch instead of Reflect, but does that really make Raikou that much of an offensive threat. Albeit, I do agree, clocking in at 7 offensive attacks is a bit low, and it's horrendously Snorlax reliant, I don't think I can do too much without sacrificing a whole lot more. Ditching Starmie for Cloyster might a possibility, but that just lets Machamp run absolutely rampant. Starmie for Egg? Perhaps, that gives me status, but Egg without a spiker is still very lackluster. Raikou/Miltank would have to go to open up a slot for a spiker, but losing Miltank slows Snorlax down a whole lot, and losing Raikou makes me Snorlax dependent against special attackers. Go figure. And this certainly isn't the fastest team in the world to be comfortably allowing so many openings. The lack of offense is really hindering the effectiveness of this team. In my two hasty practice runs (very hasty mind you), I found myself with no option to turn to to force the switches I needed, to bring an advantageous matchup to let me bring in Snorlax. That was definitely the biggest problem. Raikou was also a huge opening, giving a free switch to grounds (which in this case, was Nidoking), whom I had little answer for.
I don't think Sleep Talkers are an absolute necessity. Apart from Suicune, there's really no Pokemon that could reliably take sleep from both Exeggutor and Nidoking (and certainly not Snorlax, which I guess is the point of this thread). You're always playing a risk anyway, and since you're willing to take that risk (assuming your STer isn't aforementioned Suicune), you might as well gamble that someone on your team is dispensable in a given battle. I've definitely been underrating paralysis lately. It's dropped off the map of GSC for me in recent years. I've never been a huge fan of Twave after dropping it back in 04 on Zapdos (for WW), then eventually Starmie, I miss it some. I've had a brief fetish in 08 for the 30% moves (thunder/BS) and haven't really looked back since. Maybe it's time to bring sexy back, who knows. Should I opt for Rock Slide, I'd end up opting for Rest as well. I bet Crunch will make pgon2 switch before IB/Tbolt/DE does ttar. But that's beside the point, because I won't opt for RS/Rest over DP/Tbolt. Making an already gruesomely slow, one-dimensional offensive team more defensive is counterproductive. Funny thing about you mentioning that bit on tbolt vs ice beam on pgon2. You make the decision, on paper, that tbolt is the obvious choice. But in the end, I'm willing to bet that in an anonymous poll for most players, after looking at team composition, 10% freeze vs 10% paralyze, and the whole nine yards, ice beam will win out on more teams than tbolt. From a defensive perspective, what's more dangerous, an active Rhydon or an active Suicune? That IB will thwart any Rhydons trying to switch-in, whereas because of the numbers Tbolt offers (just falling short of 3HKO), some might gamble with Suicune. That leads to KOs. Sometimes. On the flip side, IB might lure audacious Skarmory to play the same numbers game, perhaps not on the same level as Suicune, but still a probability nonetheless. And that freeze thing is definitely just butter. I'm probably te last person remaining that sitll really cares about... "these days". And even then, it's very little. I'll have my days where I just feel like talking about Pokemon, but that's getting rarer and rarer. And it only lasts some 30 minutes tops (this post has been sitting in notepad for about 3 days). I just don't care anymore. Well that's a lie. And I wouldn't exactly consider that pgon2 a counter pokemon, but it's definitely giving me a new look on the whole paralysis thing that's been lost in time. I haven't really sat down and thought about the team and its problems (or Pokemon in general). Bleh, it's getting hard to find the free time, and even harder to dedicate that rare free time to... nostalgia. But my guess is that the most effective way to go with it is just FB over LK. Replacing Starmie's move some with a combination of either Surf, IB, Tbolt/Thunder, Psychic, pick 2, dropping Reflect. Then Raikou with another offensive threat (maybe, this change isn't necessary, depending on your pace). But that's not of interest to me. I've wanted to make something that really slows how broken LK Snorlax can be. Oh well. I'm all Nyquiled out at the moment. I'll whip up some more in-head teams. I'm trying to recall my "overcentralize" series of teams, namely the drumzard one. And the Vaporeon one too. Those were fun. Super high risk, medium reward. |
Well, it's hard to demonstrate something is broken that isn't. :P The standard Curselax can't pull a surprise kill out of nowhere but it's extremely dangerous precisely because of the defense boost Curse gives it. Marowak can no longer 2HKO (or switch into Belly Drum and OHKO, lol), Machamp can only threaten a 25% crit while getting its ass beat the rest of the time, Exploders can't just come in and kill it while it sets up. Curse Skarmory is the only thing that can straight-up beat it... which is the only reason Skarmory ever became OU at all.
Snorlax is resilient but not quite enough to make using Belly Drum easy, as the premier special attacks can still hit for 20-25% on it and even weak physical attackers (e.g. Miltank) do that much. It's difficult to ever profitably Belly Drum. The best Drumlax can usually do is nab a surprise kill on unsuspecting Blissey, or trade with Gengar as it suicides with Explosion/DBond. Quote:
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You're correct, I'm technically wrong about Hidden Power thing. Raikou is "acceptable" with Crunch. :P It hits Eggy and can wear things down with special defense drops. But no Electric pokémon should be completely unable to hit Ground pokémon. Marowak is just too dangerous and Nidoking looks like it can cause your team trouble as well, you'd welcome the ability to wear them down over time (or kill them at low health). Growth-passing Eeveelutions are rare and typically not that big of a threat anyway, so I don't know why you think you need two pseudo-hazers. You're not even using Spikes, so there's no advantage to it that way either. Whirlwind is fine on Skarmory, as it deals with all the relevant things you might think about blowing away, but Roar on Raikou is weak. Crunch or Hidden Power will serve you much better in that move slot and, thanks to yours truly, HP is no longer banned on legendaries either FYI. Growl or not, neither Miltank nor Blissey should be your first option against Snorlax. Growl is more like "I don't want Curselax switching into me and doing mean things." You don't use it so you can switch into Curselax, you use it so Curselax can't switch in against you. Blissey does Growl better because it already deters special attackers from coming in, ensuring Growl hits something relevant when they switch. Miltank is just as liable to be met by Zapdos or some other primarily special attacker. Body Slam gives you some advantage over Blissey, the ability to spread paralysis, so use it. Return isn't even necessary as "Drumlax protection." It doesn't 2HKO Snorlax anyway (after a Belly Drum + Leftovers), it just leaves it at ~6% instead of ~15% after two hits. If it chooses to attack (and kill Miltank), it's weak enough to be killed anyway. If it Rests, you just bring in Skarmory and Whirlwind it away. Who knows, with Body Slam you might even PAR/fp and end up killing it! Quote:
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I'll let you know if I ever have trouble with Blissey though. Quote:
Do you mean the Rest, Curse, CC, HP Ghost Machamps? Have you ever used one? It's an on-paper waste of a slot without heavy support, far better in theory than in practice. Quote:
Because I don't like something like Thunder/attract missy/Gengar messing up a perfectly fine battle. Lose to those often? And because Raikou is far more impervious than you make it seem. And it's a absolute godsend early on through scouting. And it makes Snorlax/other stuff think twice if they see him as a free setup. IDK, Light Screen or something. Roar Raikou is definitely better than you make it seem. Quote:
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What would YOU change about this team? It seems like it'd be an absolute disaster if I followed all of your suggestions and ended up with ST Raikou, Curselax, Growl Blissey, Curse Skarmory, Starmie, Tyranitar. It'd be a God-awful generic stall team that won't do shit to break even the worst of other stall teams. And it's certainly slow as balls, with plenty of holes for anything mildly offensive. These tips sound like they're from 2004. Ever play a Cursedrumlax? |
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As for what I highlighted: if there are only three ultimate values, let's make sure we get them correct: 100%, 53.125% (nitpicking, 54% if we like integers that guarantee a 2HKO), and 39.59% for a 3HKO after rounding to two places, 41% rounding technically; as a rule of thumb (not absolute fact mind you), if the game says 40% damage, you're pretty much guaranteed a 3HKO. For the last statement, I don't know how/when the game rounds its numbers, plus we'd have to examine the pokemon attacking, the pokemon defending, and the attack being used, which is just too tedious for this discussion. So yes, magic numbers are 100/54/41, and that 41 could probably be a 40. I'd actually opt for Thunder over Thunderbolt on Porygon2; guaranteed 3HKO on Suicune, guaranteed 2HKO on Starmie, OHKO on Cloyster if it's taken any damage beforehand, all things not given with Thunderbolt. 10% freeze chance is cool (pun intended), but keep in mind that if you're relying on that, you're almost always going to be disappointed. you can freeze something, but unless it's the Heal Beller, you may have well just slept it. |
Hidden Power wasn't even banned on Legendaries at the outset of GSC. It just sorta came about somewhere mid-late in the game's lifespan for no particular reason whatsoever. ("It's hard to catch the legendary beasts with legit Hidden Power IVs," with no regard to how simple it was to catch the legendary birds otherwise... People also just hated Hidden Power Raikou, etc.) The change came about recently because I bitched about it with the start of the Smogon Premier League (SPL), where I'm largely playing GSC for my team and I use HP Water Zapdos. It's partially self-interest but also because it's just a poor rule. I'm glad to see it gone again.
On poor rules, I also argued to remove the ban on Hypnosis / Mean Look / Perish Song movesets. (And I don't use that.) That didn't work very well, I only got it changed to "no sleep perish trapping," which basically means Missy/Gengar can have Hypnosis on the same moveset now but it still can't sleep a pokémon they're actually perish trapping. :P Relevant stuff: Quote:
That's pretty much exactly why Curselax is better than Drumlax. Drumlax has a hard time ever successfully using its boosting move at all, it's practically a delayed Selfdestruct in almost all instances you manage to get a kill using it. And in my opening statement there, I only meant Drumlax isn't broken. It's inferior to Curselax. Curselax, or Snorlax in general, may well be broken. It's certainly overpowered. Banworthy? *shrug* Not really... There's at least one way to reliably beat most any Snorlax and a plethora of other ways to effectively deal with it depending on moveset. Curse Skarmory can definitely finish off a battle once choice pokémon are weakened or eliminated. Back in the day when I used it, for example... Gengar blows up on Raikou and Starmie gets Paralyzed? Oh yeah, Curse Skarmory can clean up from there. Some teams are more susceptible than others, of course, but that's Pokémon. It would be terrible against your particular team here. Quote:
Why the hate for Marowak? Marowak is the most dangerous pokémon in GSC solely because it's the only thing without a completely safe switch-in. Few pokémon can survive two hits from it even unboosted (of which Skarmory is one of them) and Swords Dance shores up those "problems" quickly. Machamp is the next closest thing to "uncounterable" but it's not quite so. Reflect + Psychic Starmie is a hard counter, if anyone chose to use it for some reason, and it kinda needs five move slots to cover all its options. (i.e. Earthquake, the least obvious necessity, is required for Nidoking.) Quote:
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what about a lk snorlax that doesnt have belly drum? any reason why i never see anyone trying that?
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Not particularly...
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@havoc: Whoops, my numbers were off quite a bit. 100%, 54%, and 38% (not sure how you got 40, it's 113/3). But yes, the point is, people often justify one attack over another just because it's the "same 4HKO". That's a misconstrued argument.
I wouldn't exactly call Pgon2 a "guaranteed 3HKO on Suicune", that's pushing it a bit. Afterall, the odds of that are just ~34% under ideal circumstances (e.g. it wouldn't do you any good if the 3 consecutive thunders were interrupted by a Rest). @Mr.E: HP ban came sometime in 05-06 I would think, my off years. Imagine my surprise. Celebi's promotion too. I'm not necessarily going against your suggestion because of merit, but rather the argument itself. BS should be used for paralysis. End. Stating that the damages are negligible is false. Chip damage hardly supports Body Slam, since most people would be far more willing to Drum a snorlax at 93% than 84%, which is just suicide. Not necessarily Blissey mind you, I can Belly Drum on any Pokemon that has to Rest/is Resting. And are you forgetting LK? But ideally, I'd like some more paralysis to give me more options. Twave. Quote:
Curselax hasn't been a threat to most teams for a couple years now. Drumlax is far riskier, and the rewards are far greater. Curselax is slow and ineffective. Umbreon was seeing less and less use because Curselax has died off. Sure it can make a comeback, but there's ever so many HARD counters to Curselax that makes it probably the worst version of Snorlax (bar something ridiculous like Splash, Sleep Talk, Ice Beam, Belly Drum) on a competitive scale. I don't know how you can argue otherwise? I'm hardpressed to really label a team a curselax would excel against really. You don't see stuff like Alakazam, Kingdra, Smeargle, Scizor, Jumpluff on teams anymore like the days of 0.9.2 or whatever. People realized certain Pokemon just plain sucked. Snorlax is easily grounds for banning if it wasn't for the long, intricate history it has with the metagame itself. From a completely neutral perspective, Snorlax is banworthy. From a nostalgic, accepted, this-is-the-way-it's-always-going-to-be level, that's preposterous. Snorlax is the metagame. Skarmory should never be able to win a game on its own. If he does, that's just a case of poor opposing teams. Starmie has a far better chance of sweeping a team than Skarmory does. Snorlax doesn't switch into Skarmory, Skarmory switches into Snorlax. And why not, especially if I come in on... curselax? Anyway, stealing Leftovers from Suicune puts it in 3HKO range for Tyranitar. That's cool. Stealing it from an opposing Skarmory is always awesome. You're definitely downplaying Leftovers. Quote:
I'd argue HP Ghost is the most dispensible of the moves in a 4-attack Machamp, followed by RS. CC: Obvious. FB: Forretress, Skarmory, Steelix, Heracross, Egg EQ: Nidoking, Gengar, Misdreavus RS: Zapdos HP Ghost: Gengar, Misdreavus, Egg, Starmie HP Ghost really only covers Starmie, who Machamp has a long shot of KOing anyway. But RS isn't that much different, but it has Flinch, which is always nice. Quote:
A cursing p2 will never run Twave... what?? And Miltank doesn't exactly take heavy damage from unstabbed special attacks, even if it's running off 308. Steelix's Explosion does lackluster damage to Miltank. Blissey is a poor growler. There's little case to be made. I'd go as far as to label Blissey's a poor Pokemon in GSC. She'd beast RBY, but in GSC? She's overhyped and has been for half a decade. And again, how would you change this team? @anona: Because no one plays anymore. |
there is one kind of team curselax is better than drumlax that you would never see in competitive gsc, a team full of mixed sweepers
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The only reason Curselax isn't always a threat is because people forced themselves to use otherwise shitty, useless pokémon (Skarmory, Umbreon) in desperate attempt to fend off the damn thing. Hell, Umbreon is so useless there's no reason to use it even if 100% of teams contained Curselax. (There's better counters available that actually do something.)
With regard to Drumlax, now, keep in mind it's probably getting hit twice before getting a chance to attack unless you bring it in after a KO. (On the switch, Drumming, then before your attack. Assumption is you ate an attack switching in and forced a switch on the turn you Drum.) It's not really a big deal that 2x Miltank Body Slam doesn't straight-up kill a Drumlax in this scenario and 2x Return does have a chance. BS does "enough" that trying to Belly Drum in your face is still suicidal for it, even if it switched in at 100%. Chip damage only exacerbates the situation by allowing even BS to "2HKO." The real point is that nobody is Belly Drumming in front of a Miltank regardless of which move you carry, which was your original statement. "Miltank handles every curser just fine (and Return does more than enough to a Drumlax to prevent it from drumming)." For the hundredth time, Alakazam is still totally bitchin' regardless of what you think. I don't know where you get the idea it sucks. Nothing short of Snorlax truly scares it... but Snorlax scares practically everything and Alakazam at least hits it harder (with 100% accuracy) switching in than any other special attacker in the game. It then effectively deters Snorlax from using a non-attack move, with the threat of not switching and using Encore, making the switch out more safe than normally. There's also T-Tar... which it actually beats if it Encores Pursuit and carries a neutral or super-effective second move (TPunch, Ice Punch, Hidden Power). Not like Gengar fares much better against those two anyway, among quite a few others 'Zam handles better, and you seem to love him in comparison. Not that I'm dogging Gengar... Alakazam can also learn Reflect, if you wish to make the switch-out gravy, but I prefer a second attack because Psychic PP tends to drain quickly. But okay, fair enough on Snorlax being more dangerous than Marowak. I guess it depends what we mean by "dangerous." Snorlax is absolutely the overall best Pokémon -- Marowak isn't close -- but Marowak is the most capable at being an immediate threat to the widest range of enemies. The first time Marowak comes in is especially dangerous since it's fully capable of tanking a Surf for 80% of its health in exchange for straight-up killing the Starmie or Suicune that fired it, still alive to take advantage of PAR support or sleeping pokémon in the late game. The only pokémon whose explosiveness even comes close is... Drumlax, lol. ;/ But Marowak doesn't have to exercise so much caution with its boosting move -- it doesn't halve its own health -- and hits twice as hard when you can't or don't boost. It also has immunity to a common attacking type to switch in for free. Marowak's problem is simple fragility, what with not being able to carry the Leftovers so coveted by everything else, but its sheer indefensibility makes it undeniably viable. No other pokémon has that raw threat factor, not even Snorlax. On that note, Leftovers are very important... but I think you're downplaying having four moveslots. :P It's like the people that use a suicide lead in DPP. Yeah, okay, get your silly Stealth Rock down Turn 1. I'll gladly play 6-5 pokémon. Curse makes Skarmory a potential late-game threat, otherwise it's just another Umbreon that does nothing except "not-die." (And no, Umbreon isn't even good with Curse. Skarmory is a decent Curser because Whirlwind stuffs other pseudohazers and Drill Peck is actually a decent attack.) With Earthquake, Machamp doesn't need HP Ghost. (I guess it doesn't matter though, it needs Hidden Power anyway.) HP Bug hits Eggy harder and hits the other Psychics all the same, HP Ghost is just the "compromise" move that also hits Ghosts when you forgo EQ. (Fire Blast and Rock Slide are slow to wear down Gengar, Earthquake hits it hard on the switch and +1 OHKOs.) The fifth move is actually Curse, not Fire Blast, so it has the power to break Starmie in combination with Hidden Power. But alas, five moves can't be done and Machamp is indeed less "dangerous" than Marowak. :P edit to note the irony of me calling umbreon terrible considering my avatar |
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Miltank doesn't take heavy damage from Thunder OR Double-Edge, but that's not what you're aiming to do with Miltank--definitely Thunder Wave it. Miltank's most underrated aspect is its Speed which allows it to Growl anything that Curses before they can fire a +1 attack (not true with Blissey) or Growl certain strong attackers before they can attack, like 3-attack Snorlax, or even something like Heracross. What I'm trying to say is: would you leave your Miltank paralyzed and switch it out? Probably not. -1 Heal Bell. Just like in your battle with Bob where you said you'd use every Heal Bell specifically to make sure one particular pokemon isn't paralyzed, you'd probably do the same here for your any of your Miltank/Skarmory/Raikou holy trifecta of defense. |
just a quick note
last gsc uber tourney ive attended (and won) lax was in every single team lugia wasn't nor were mew, or mew2 consider the following changes umbreon > ttar, possibly the zap cannon version (sure umbreon's not going to lose so badly against dpgar) either eq or surf > growl on miltank curse skarm psychic starmie |
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The assumption of two attacks is right, once before the drum, and once before the attack that kills said Pokemon. Why would you switch it into an attack? With the sheer amount of switching going on in GSC, it's easy to switch it in on an opposing switch. Queue the list of pokemon that can 4HKO Snorlax. It's pretty damn short. Snorlax can be passed Reflect too. My mistake, I meant Alakazam is overhyped, Blissey flatout sucks (except the Sing kind, those are mediocre, sort of, if you nab something cool like an opposing Blissey/Miltank, or if you face a 0 ST team like this). Alakazam needs more moveslots to really be effective. Psychic, Recover, then Tpunch/Fpunch/Ipunch/Encore/ST/DP/Counter/Reflect/Toxic/Thunderwave. Pick only four and it's pretty clear why it's not as good as on paper. Toxic/FP is probably the most reliable two options you could go with. Encore is the gamebreaking options. But it's moves like twave/reflect that make it annoying to deal with, and it's counter that actually kills stuff. If you use Gengar, you should know its purpose. An assassin really. It should always give you AT LEAST a 1 for 1 switch, maybe 2 for 1. And it's the best Pokemon at doing that. Alakazam is not in the same conversation. In this instance, Counter Snorlax, then dbond ttar for a 2 for 1? Hell, maybe sleep something in between? Gengar is about creativity. If your opponent knows your Gengar's moveset, Gengar will suck. It wouldn't even place in the top 15 of threats. But with unpredictability, at least one of Gengar's 6 or so gamebreaking moves will end up playing a huge part. It's by no means a easy Pokemon to use, nor play against. In what instances would Marowak really get a free switch and not take any damage against a team like this? Reflect Raikou? Ultimately getting Marowak in without suffering damage is similar to getting Snorlax in without suffering damage: on an opponent switch/rest/heal bell or something. Curseskarmory is never a threat until endgame (e.g. when you've already won). On average, you'll have 3-4 Pokemon on a team that'll successfully thwart Skarmory's sweeping potentional on all teams. And given that it's GSC, all it takes is really 1-2 KOs for you to "win" the game in most cases. Curse is another defensive move on Skarmory, giving it drumlax coverage, as well as SD wak coverage. Arguing its lackluster offensive merits is spewing out empty words. @havoc: What I meant was, should you end up Thundering before the turn it needs to rest, then on the turn, then the turn after. That's 3 Thunders and no KO. But that's all irrelevent, most would switchout after 2 consecutive hits, but just saying. Yeah those odd sets definitely work. Thunderwave has been a forgotten move for a while now, and it's a little underappreciated. Quote:
But if it did, there are several reasons for this. People are familiar with Snorlax, they're not with the other three. And because of that, they used common sets that just don't work. Cursegia is a terrible idea, it should be used as a phazer wall thing. Mewtwo should probably be exploding... and other stuff. Umbreon change makes the team slower than it already is. And it's pretty damn slow. And there's no spikes or anything for it to benefit from. It's a shame ZC only has 5-8PP. But this could work. It makes the Big 3 into the Big 3 + Rondo. And it answers havoc's pgon2. I remember I considered Umbreon, but dropped it in favor of ttar for a reason. I just don't remember what it was. This still doesn't solve the sleep issue, albeit it gives me a safe switch against Nidoking, who I guess I can just bore to death? EQ/Surf change doesn't make any sense to me. Explain. It's a tossup between Thief/Curse really. Thief is more offensive, Curse is more defensive. Psychic > Surf? Or Psychic > Reflect. The former doesn't make sense. The latter can be only determined in practice, assuming Reflect would underperform with comparison to theory. Starmie sees Snorlax switch-ins a lot. |
changes i've suggested have to be considered as a whole
umbreon implies a counter to cursers; therefor, you can drop growl in order to gain a move supereffective on the rock types that miltank baits out: putting them in the ko range of bellylax actually saves your lk for other things, like a roar cune. those changes are exposing you to opponents' bellylax, as such curseskarm should be preferred. dropping reflect for psychic is a personal prefernce of mine, nothing absolutely necessary; i'd do it in order to gain better defenses against machamp, specifically body slam machamp, altough i recognize the overall usefulness of reflect. just for the record, my mew2 was the selfdestructing kind; most were kind of mixed with recover, altough my opponent in wf had a sd mew2 too. there were no curselugias. in fact, the lugias were all kind of toxic+whirlwind+ rest/recover+???. laxes were mostly drummers; personally i've used a surf+tbolt+bs+sd lax in a team centered around growthjolt, and a curse+sd lax in a team centered around swords dancing mew. |
There's no reason why Mew wasn't on every team but snorlax was. That's a case of poor competition, and not really a basis for anything. And somehow I do doubt your statement (this is where you cite physical evidence of your claim). Hypothetically though, I can guarantee that should an uber metagame ever exist and stabilize, these will be the rankings:
1. Mew 2. Mewtwo/Snorlax/Lugia 3. Mewtwo/Snorlax/Lugia 4. Mewtwo/Snorlax/Lugia 5. irrelevent, but probably Zapdos or Blissey or Raikou. |
well, now the only "evidence" i can think of are the logs of tournament, which are quite a lot of bytes; i'll post mine since you are interested. I'll avoid posting battles against total jerks though.
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No offense, but this is hardly the skill level that qualifies as a foundation to make any sort of claim. Some absurdly bad players and judgement there. That's not grounds to make ANY assumption, if anything, that's exactly how they shouldn't have played. I'd argue that most, if not all, aren't even competitive players on any level.
Can I dismiss any battle with Venusaur? Both Mew and Mewtwo make an appearance here. Swagger/Transform Mew discredits any legitimacy that this had of being a serious tournament. Regardless of how absolutely moronic that is, both Mew and Mewtwo make an appearance here as well. Both Mew and Mewtwo make an appearance here. Both Mew and Mewtwo make an appearance here. None of these logs disproved any of my claims. Mew/Mewtwo will be on every team, followed by Snorlax/Lugia. Snorlax is NOT more popular/better than Mew (Mewtwo is slightly debatable, I'm curious to see how that one will play out). But the mere notion that we're putting Snorlax in the same sentence as the two most dominant pokemon that'll never make an appearance in competitive play tells you a little about how banworthy Snorlax is don't you think? |
It's certainly admirable that Snorlax continues to be powerful in Ubers battles but you can't use that to justify that it deserves to be Uber itself. It's a different metagame. Umbreon would appear to be quite good in OU too if we let its capability in Ubers color our impressions (i.e. it's the only hard Mewtwo counter), yet it basically does nothing in OU but attempt to counter Curse users.
*gonna check out these logs now even though I hate Ubers and user Borat thinks they're scrubby...* Bored. Quote:
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P2 eh kinda, though it eventually wins when it forces a freeze or it just has Tbolt/Thunder from the get-go. Kangaskhan and its Cursing friends don't lose to Skarmory because Curse makes them slower, allowing them to out-phaze the now faster Skarmory. (They're "dead" because they're not that good and were just a brief fad, not because Skarmory appeared in the metagame.) Heracross... point taken but Zapdos does that while being a much better pokémon in general. Umbreon's Pursuit is worthless. So are its Baton Passing capabilities, to pre-empt that response. The only pokémon who even remotely gives a crap is Gengar, who lacks the recovery and solid STAB special attack that both Alakazam and Starmie have, and Gengar will just suicide and trade if Umbreon somehow manages to threaten a KO. Umbreon just doesn't DO anything except shut down Cursers... which you can just as well do with Growl on Miltank/Blissey, Gengar/Missy, Reflect Forretress, or "counter" with your own Curse users. There are better pokémon for the job that also do more than just sitting there, looking pretty. Well, okay, Forretress doesn't do much either but it also lays Spikes and learns Explosion. Quote:
Toxic is a bad move in general and it's even worse on a pokémon with such prolific offensive strength as Alakazam. |
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Honestly, a no-snorlax OU environment would be a awesome breath of fresh air. This opens up countless different possibilities and a tournament like this involving the best minds GSC has to offer would be... epic. Quote:
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I've stated Umbreon is worthless. It doesn't do anything other than "not die". Why are you arguing to agree? Growl Miltank is good, but like havoc mentioned, it doesn't like being paralyzed. Umbreon's movepool is worthless and doesn't need its other slots for moves that actually do something (HB), and I even recall at one time the popularity of Rest/ST/Growl/Charm Umbreon. Growl Blissey doesn't do anything to Cursers on an account of it can't switch into anything that packs curse. Not sure what Gengar/Missy would do, enlighten me. Or Forretress, against the fire special that a lot of cursers pack because of Skarm. You're not suggesting Forretress AND Gengar/Missy as an Umbreon replacement are you? I don't know what DPP alliterations prove, but ok. Especially when you're high off your past. Encore is an exceptional move, gamebreaking if used properly, but Encore also runs off 8 PP. And Alakazam has the staying/switching power of a dehydrated frog. 100 def, 200 spc def, and 300 HP won't be switching into anything that's not already a switch/rest, not without screens anyway. But I guess you can delusion yourself and enjoy being wildly mediocre using sweeping Zam, that's your preference. And there's nothing here arguing the merits of Blissey, why? Perhaps it's the idea of evolution, that players no longer use one dimensional attacking Pokemon which is the only instance skarmbliss does anything other than die, or Blissey's inability to learn Reflect with HB (which would chang my view), that puts it at the losing end of every matchup. Ever try using Blissey against anything that's not completely stall? It's a hell of a crutch. Welcome to 06-07. |
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