***[VOTE] The final Wobbuffet "discussion" thread***

Orwell said:

NO. "From what I understand, an Uber is something that takes little skill to use, and nonetheless completely tips the battle in your favor." I stand by that. I don't think Wobbuffet is Uber because I don't think it takes that little skill to use either, and I think that it is beatable through reasonable means. Of course I diasgree with that assessment. Why else would I vote against it?

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I was more or less stating that what you post contradicts what you... post...

What does that have to do with anything? And this one just doesn't pertain to you. A lot of people are using this argument. Regardless of whether or not you think Wobbuffet is uber you must agree it it takes some skill to use.

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The only 'skill' you would need is to know when to use Encore, Mirror Coat or Counter.

If Wobbuffet took little or no skill to use, this wouldn't even be an issue. They would use it to full effect regardless of their experience.

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The issue is Wobbuffet that it is too powerful for OU and needs to be rebanned, not that it takes no skill to use.

A lot of Smogon players need to get off their high horses here. Even if Wobbuffet took little or no skill to use, isn't that true of many other strategies? Are you honestly going to tell me that it takes that long to learn how to use a Pursuit Weavile or DD Gyarados.

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Wobbuffet needs the absolute minimal amount of prediction to use it to its full potential. You don't even need much experience actually.

Pursuit Weavile requires prediction. More skill and experience than you'll need for Wobbuffet.

Dragon Dance Gyarados certainly needs skill. You need to know when to attack or when to set up. Sometimes it's better to set up and sometimes it's better to attack. For example, many people set up early game. Not exactly a good way to start out in most cases. Prediction, assumptions for early game (like what would switch into you), good timing etc. is what allows Gyarados to be used successfully. In Wobbuffet's case, you just sit there and you don't have to think about counters, potential incoming threats etc.

I'm not comparing them to Wobb, they're different PKMN.

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Lol you finally understand why comparing isn't always great. (eg. you comparing Baton Pass team with Wob - that's even worse than comparing Wob with Gyarados).

What I'm saying is that Wobb is a PKMN that takes relatively as much skill to use as many other OU PKMN.

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Not true. It will take you more skill to use Infernape than it does to use Dugtrio etc.

If you think Wobb is that bad, then explain how it dominates other PKMN or overcentralizes the metagame.

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Wobbuffet has great HP and allows it to take barrages of attack and dish them back two-fold and from both attacking spectrum. It can also PP stall out slower pokemon like Blissey or Bronzong (an example would be IPL's occasional way of using Wobbuffet) with Encore.

Wobbuffet also gives out ample of set-up opportunities, allowing you to make a sweep.

Wobbuffet can change the pace of the game to the wielder's liking. If it is a face paced game where an offensive team was versing a balanced team, Wobbuffet on the balanced team can adjust the game and make it go at a slower pace quite easily.

This is basically how it can dominate opposing OU pokemons.

As far as I can tell this reason IN PARTICULAR is just someone venting.

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No, not true. The only reason why I quoted you in the first place was because you were posting strange and occasionally unnecessary statements.

I don't know...either I legitimately beat Wobbuffet every time I played it, or every one that I played had no idea what they were doing because they had too little experience...please choose.

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From the way you stated it (you set up on Wobbuffet), I would have to choose the latter I'm afraid.

Just because you have to wait till late game to KO it does not mean it is Uber.

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...I never stated that... I was just showing how much you were contradicting yourself in that sentence.

No, I'm saying that a regular OU team can beat a well-played Wobbuffet but not a well-played Mewtwo.

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Actually you can still beat a Mewtwo. Just pack faster pokemons or use Priority attacks on all of your pokemons.

Then explain the rest please. You were trying to debunk my argument the last I checked, were you not?

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I kind of gave up since I'm not bothered. I stated on the first page about the problems with Wobbuffet.

As long as there is a large minority of PKMN in OU that can dispose of Wobbuffet indirectly, I am not going to roll over, so to speak, and call Wobbuffet invincible.

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Of course, nothing is invincible but the thing is, like most Ubers, you need to sacrifice a number of pokemons in order to defeat it, unless you use BandTar or BandWeavile who dies if outpredicted.

However, Wobbufet CAN be beaten by normal teams, and by no means does having Wobbuffet on a team ensure victory.

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Define normal team (not being an ass or anything).

Futhermore, there are other OU PKMN that are considered to not have counters. What about Jolteon? Or any fast PKMN with U-turn/Baton Pass?

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As long as a pokemon can come into its attacks and threaten it out, it's a counter, regardless if it baton passes or U-turns away. An example is:

Player1 switches to Swampert.
Jolteon use Thunderbolt.
It doesn't effect...
Jolteon restored health using Leftovers!
Swampert restored health using Leftovers!
---
Jolteon used Baton Pass.
Player2 sent out Salamence!
Salamence's intimidate cuts Swampert's attack.
Swampert used Earthquake.
It doesn't effect...

In this case, Jolteon has been successfully countered as it was force to leave the 'battlefield'.

It is not the same. These Uber PKMN in particular are so strong that they could get of two or three OU PKMN directly or indirectly regrdless of what OU PKMN the other person used, and regardless of how they used those OU PKMN.

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Sorry if I wasn't clear but I meant that Wobbuffet takes little to no skill to dominate a player. The only difference is it isn't a sweeper.

The mere fact that a Smogon mod, of all people, is calling my arguments "stupid" instead of explaining their invalidity, and using sarcasm extensively in an otherwise objective argument is proof to me that this "Ban Wobbuffet" position stopped being purely objective a long time ago, regardless of whether or not are there are good arguments for it.

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I explained my argument on page 1.

For the records, I'm not a mod. I merely have a badge.
Moderators have a '+' in their name and are in italics. Eg. Zerowing+, Blue Kirby+ etc.
Super Mods have a "*' in their name and are in italics. Eg. Max*, Mekkah* etc.
Admins has two '*' in their name and are in italics. Eg. chaos**, Vineon**, Misty** etc.

I'll get back to the other parts tomorrow, if I can be bothered, because I have to go now.

Orwell said:

NO.

"From what I understand, good sir, an Uber is something that takes little skill to use, and nonetheless completely tips the battle in your favor." I stand by that. I don't think Wobbuffet is Uber because I don't think it takes that little skill to use either, and I think that it is beatable through reasonable means. Of course I diasgree with that assessment. Why else would I vote against it?

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I don't believe that Uber should be defined as a Pokemon that takes "little skill to use." Are you implying that Uber = skillless, therefore the Uber metagame takes "little skill?" I'm sure that if I used Mewtwo and other Pokemon with horrible team strategies/movesets/etc., a superior player would be able to outplay that in such a situation. Sure Wobbuffet takes skill to use. Therefore I believe that with a skilled player bringing out the most of Wobbuffet's potential, against an equally skilled player not using Wobbuffet, the playing grounds are uneven.

Orwell said:

What does that have to do with anything? And this one just doesn't pertain to you. A lot of people are using this argument. Regardless of whether or not you think Wobbuffet is uber you must agree it it takes some skill to use.

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We can both agree that Wobbuffet requires skill to use, then? Good, because I state that Wobbuffet in the hands of a skilled player, is an extremely stifling force to the metagame by greatly restricting your opponent's options.

Orwell said:

If Wobbuffet took little or no skill to use, this wouldn't even be an issue. They would use it to full effect regardless of their experience.

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I'm ranked #1 on Shoddy with a semi-famous Wobbuffet team. Does this count as "full effect?"

Orwell said:

A lot of Smogon players need to get off their high horses here. Even if Wobbuffet took little or no skill to use, isn't that true of many other strategies? Are you honestly going to tell me that it takes that long to learn how to use a Pursuit Weavile or DD Gyarados? I'm not comparing them to Wobb, they're different PKMN. What I'm saying is that Wobb is a PKMN that takes relatively as much skill to use as many other OU PKMN. If you think Wobb is that bad, then explain how it dominates other PKMN or overcentralizes the metagame. As far as I can tell this reason IN PARTICULAR is just someone venting.

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Pursuit Weavile can easily backfire by the opponent not switching out, DDing prematurely is simply wasting a turn without discovering the opponent's counters and figuring out a way to deal with them. You're right though, you shouldn't be comparing them to Wobbuffet, they perform entirely different roles from Wobbuffet. With skill, it does indeed dominate other Pokemon because you can pick and choose any time to come in and remove a Pokemon judged as a biggest threat/stopper to your team or come in on a wall to set up a sweep. Sure it takes skill, and with skill, it does a lot of things no other Pokemon can do.

Orwell said:

I don't know...either I legitimately beat Wobbuffet every time I played it, or every one that I played had no idea what they were doing because they had too little experience...please choose.

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Unfortunately, there's a dearth of good players out there that have chosen to use Wobbuffet on their teams, having decided to boycott using it instead.

Orwell said:

I should have clarified this better. I wasn't comparing these Ubers to Wobb in terms of strategy, I should have said that these PKMN in particular were so strong that they could get of two or three OU PKMN directly or indirectly regrdless of what OU PKMN the other person used, and regardless of how they used those OU PKMN.

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Wobbuffet is so strong that it is almost guaranteed to get at MINIMUM one kill per match. That means that Wobbuffet is almost guaranteed to pay for its own worth in every single match. Not only that, Wobbuffet is one of the only Pokemon that runs no risk of ever being set up on due to Encore, this is an important thing to remember even when Wobbuffet is weakened badly, that Wobbuffet can be sacrificed to prevent your opponent from setting up.

Orwell said:

As long as there is a large minority of PKMN in OU that can dispose of Wobbuffet indirectly, I am not going to roll over, so to speak, and call Wobbuffet invincible.

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What is a "large minority?" Last I checked, you either had to carry Shed Shell, pack U-Turn with a ghost in hand, or be physical based Dusknoir/Gengar, special based Tyranitar/Houndoom, or Spiritomb, or have Baton Pass to counter Wobbuffet. Sure, Wobbuffet's not invincible, but nor is he that easy to simply "dispose" of because the Wobbuffet user will probably have "disposed of" at least one of your Pokemon by that time and acheived his objective.

Orwell said:

I was not trying to compare two metagames, or even two PKMN in this case. You mistunderstand me. What I meant was that if Wobb really was strong enough to be Uber, then it would tear all OU teams asunder, not just easily trappable offensive teams. I am also perfectly aware this debate has nothing to do with Wobb's viability in Ubers.

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I do argue that Wobbuffet can tear all OU teams asunder simply because Wobbuffet can pick and choose any Pokemon on my opponent's team to remove from the game. No other Pokemon can do that with such impunity as Wobbuffet can.

Orwell said:

Techinally, this is true. If we're this doing based only the legitimacy of true counters, then yes, Wobbuffet can be considered Uber. However, Wobbufet CAN be beaten by normal teams, and by no means does having Wobbuffet on a team ensure victory. The other 5 PKMN are equally important in their own right as well. Futhermore, there are other OU PKMN that are considered to not have counters. What about Jolteon? Or any fast PKMN with U-turn/Baton Pass? These PKMN are not the same, I KNOW. However it is true that these PKMN warp the rules and institution of countering as well by using their teammates as proxies. You don't just beat Jolteon. You beat it after you take out that Metagross or Rampardos that it became so keen on Agilitypassing to.

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Just solely not having counters is not what determines a Pokemon's "Uber" status, other factors such as its influence on the metagame as a whole has to be taken into account. No, Wobbuffet does not ensure victory by itself by being present, hardly being able to 6-0 the opponent by itself, but it does create gaps in the opponent's team right where you want it, making the job much easier. So if I can trap 4 or 5 different Pokemon on your team (unless you have a full BP / U-Turn team,) I can pick any one of those to trap and ignore the BP / U-Turn Pokemon, as you put it, coming back to it later. Wobbuffet warps the rules of countering by preventing one of the most basic rules of Pokemon: switching. Dugtrio and Magnezone are much more limited in scope in what they can trap as well as having to deal with problems like low defenses/mediocre offenses or the weakness to the common ground/fighting/fire moves those said steels often carry. The other trapping moves, Mean Look and company, are usually predictable and require a turn to set up, while Shadow Tag is automatic, making Wobbuffet by far more superior as it prevents switching out from the beginning, no matter who you are, unless you have Trace or are another Wobbuffet.

Orwell said:

It is not the same. These Uber PKMN in particular are so strong that they could get of two or three OU PKMN directly or indirectly regrdless of what OU PKMN the other person used, and regardless of how they used those OU PKMN. A regular OU team can beat Wobb, counters or no. "The same thing but not a sweeper" would literally be something with godly defenses, SEVERAL uncommon support moves like Spikes and Encore, along with access to Recover/Slack Off. And I when I say all of these, I MEAN all of these, not just what Wobb has.

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How well a Pokemon performs is not a measure of "Uberness." I use the measurement of a Pokemon's effect on the metagame as "Uberness." Groudon is uber for its overwhelming base stats and its tendency to be able to take out, indeed, perhaps two or three OU Pokemon per team per battle regardless. Deoxys-RS is a Pokemon almost never seen in Ubers, overshadowed by its more offensive counterpart, Deoxys-F, but that would not make it any less uber if it descended down to the lower tier of OU simply based on its "lack of strength" in Ubers.

Orwell said:

Sigh...I wasn't trying to compare, these two, what I was trying to say was that it is possible for one particular team when played to completely destroy another particular team 100% of the time. Just having Wobbuffet on a team does not equate to this.

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Having Wobbuffet does not equal a straight out win obviously, but when the battle is 5 on 5, and you haven taken out the Pokemon of your choice on the opponent's team, it's sure made a lot easier to win.

Orwell said:

No, I am not behind "the times". I was referring to an earlier comment in which someone partially justfied his "Ban Wobbuffet" argument by saying that they personally were annoyed when a battle ended with just one Wobbuffet against another. As far I can tell that argument had nothing to do with Wobbuffet being Uber or not, so I wanted to challenge it. Sorry for not stating the context behind my statement.

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You're right, "It's annoying" is not a valid reason to ban Wobbuffet. That's why I provide logical arguments for its banning.

Orwell said:

First off, be more clear. Any PKMN can turn the tide of someones battle for or against them, and we already know that. I'm pretty sure that you're trying to say "Wobbuffet makes it easy to set up a sweep" so let's go with that. The most dangerous thing I've ever seen Wobbuffet accomplish is let a few PKMN get a free switch in, along with getting rid of one of my PKMN. This never troubled me as I had counters for that free switchin PKMN anyway. If I didn't (and had somehow lost the battle because of that), I would have attributed that to my team's weakness or my own prediction skills, more than anything else.

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Here's some food for thought: what if, instead of just giving a Pokemon a free switch in, Wobbuffet gave that set-upper a gift of removing its counter from your team? It's obviously impossible to have 2 counters for everything imaginable out there, much less one, so if Bronzong is the Pokemon bothering my Garchomp/Deoxys-E/Mamoswine, I'll send Wobbuffet in to neuter that, thanks. Now what do you do? No such Pokemon can "turn the tides" of battle in this way like Wobbuffet can.

Orwell said:

Again, all this does is let the opponent get a free swich in, which is quite doable without Wobbuffet or trapping of any kind.

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Quite true, but Wobbuffet certainly makes this task much simpler.

Orwell said:

The mere fact that a Smogon mod, of all people, is calling my arguments "stupid" instead of explaining their invalidity, and using sarcasm extensively in an otherwise objective argument is proof to me that this "Ban Wobbuffet" position stopped being purely objective a long time ago, regardless of whether or not are there are good arguments for it.

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Junior is not a Smogon mod, and I do agree with you that his personal comments directed towards you are out of place. His views do not represent Smogon's views. I hope I provided enough objective commentary, and look forward to seeing your response.

Wobb is nasty, that much everyone can agree on.

As far as banning it back to uber, I don't mind it so much. Now, I rarely see wobbafet, but I know many people are stubbornly refusing to use it because they firmly believe that it's obscenely broken.

Caught unprepared, and when you're not expecting it, wobbafet is lethal, and will always take out a member of the opposite team.

However, wobb only works on teams designed around it, you can't just slap it on any old team and expect it to do great things all the time. This part takes some skill as you learn how to setup wobb properly, and what to come in on. Although, this is a fairly basic level of skill.

When facing a wobb, the first question you have to ask is "what is this setting up?" Wobbafet alone will rarely fair well, as wells go it tends to be more towards the fragile end, and if you chose a damaging move to attack with your wall (as long as you do more than seismic toss) the wobb will die shortly, before it can get to the counter/mirror coat walling bit if it dares to encore after the first hit. The catch? If you're starting out early game, wobb can tip the scales largely in your favour, to allow you to get your setup. From there, it's a matter of dealing with a boosted pokemon.

But after playing with it, I'm trying to see how this is different than a stat booster switching into any other weak wall it sees as an opportunity to set up. When you have a severe type disadvantage (Say, SD luke vs. blissey) you tend to switch giving your oponnent a free setup, but have a strong counter to swap to. You must be able to deal with a single boosted threat, if your team can't, you have much larger problems than a wobb weakness.

Unlike everything else banned to the uber tier, wobb will not be taking out the opponents entire team, although its friends might do something close to that. But given that the boosts are something you have to cope with on a regular basis regardless. It does facilitate this kind of team, making it far more common than before, and as a result defensive oriented teams of all types are now much harder to pull off, skewing the meta more in favor of offense.

I have a hard time personally supporting a ban for something I see encourages team building, and some forthought into setting up (athough, it's difficult to counter for most walls). As I see it, wobb is a solid counter to most walling strategies, giving far more oportunity to setup on a walling team and acts as a general counter to them. I don't see how this is worse than blissey acting as a solid defensive wall, or garchomp acting as a solid dependable and flexible sweeper an wall breaker.

Battling against it, I've never had much trouble with it, but I have lost to it when caught unawares and foolishly made a mistake when facing it. I see this as a positive thing.

Now, as long as someone knows how to setup wobb, and either copies a wobbafet team, or goes through the effort of setting up their own, its devistating to any team that trys to stall. I do realize there's a strong argument it takes little skill to use (all you have to know is very basic prediction, this is true) but its more devistating in the hands of a skilled player than a novice.

I doubt it'll ever be at the top end of OU, but will be a force in the metagame to keep things offensive. I see wobb more as a counter towards heavy stall teams, but being a counter to a strategy isn't necisarily a bad thing. I personally believe it should not be banned, and keep a place in OU.

Orwell said:

The mere fact that a Smogon mod, of all people, is calling my arguments "stupid" instead of explaining their invalidity, and using sarcasm extensively in an otherwise objective argument is proof to me that this "Ban Wobbuffet" position stopped being purely objective a long time ago, regardless of whether or not are there are good arguments for it.

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How can tiering be "purely objective" anyway? Tiering ends up as a decision correct?

These activities, and ANY debate or decision on ANYTHING, is subjective ultimately.

I kind of lol when people say things like "present an objective argument." You see the irony? You don't have an argument without an opinion, without making a judgement, and thus you have already crossed the line into subjectivity. Subjectivity though, is not a bad thing.

@ChouToshio: I agree with you, the skill argument proves little on either side of this argument. This is about the advantage, if any, that Wobbuffet gives, not skill at all.

JabbaTheGriffin said:

You seem to have this conception of ubers where they are these unstoppable forces where you just click a move and your opponent's "PKMN" faints. Mewtwo takes a reasonable amount of skill to use and is actually highly counterable in OU, that doesn't mean it SHOULD be OU, just like Wobbuffet shouldn't be OU.

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You're right, Ubers and OU are not black and white and I was making it seem that way.

Okay, I've thought long and hard about this. It is true that the combination of Encoring and trapping is VERY formidable. And it is also true that Wobuffett cannot be countered directly. It can be reliably beaten only and only if you handily dispatch of the rest of your opponents team. or rely heavily on residual damage.

For that reason, I have changed my mind. Wobbuffet, is for all intensive purposes, Uber.

I have always strived to make my decisions on as objective a basis as I possibly can, and I continue to do so.

It has too few counters, to be reliably handled without drastically changing the metagame. Wobbuffet indeed DOES requires skill, just like other Ubers, but it still cannot be countered in a practical way. And while Wobbuffet is still quite beatable and always has been, that is only because of the other PKMN on the team. I've noticed that Wobbuffet offers few openings on its own, and has always been taken out in my experience, once the rest of team folded. It simply can't defend itself once the person using it has already lost 4-5 of their PKMN. Wobbuffet has too few counters, for better or worse. You can indeed prepare for it by Shed Shell and trying a few other things, but in general it would be impractical by far.

While some of the posters so far have been quite rude, their logic for the most part has been solid.

What this argument boils down to "Would most strategies and movesets have to change to Wobb countreable in OU?"

IMO the answer is yes.

Tangerine said:

Again this is my main beef with statistics - I don't believe overcentralization is a good measure for ubers - I believe I posted a pretty good definition in the "What is Ubers" thread and that is what I go by :)

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Well, if that's the case, the community on the whole must decide their qualifications for uber status, as Wobbs fulfills some people's ideas of ubers while going against others. I do understand that overcentralizations doesn't mean that much to you, so we'll place that aside, shall we?

Tangerine said:

Lets say you have a Starmie that is trapped by Wobbuffet. You know that he has a Gyarados. Now, this means that you want to save Starmie, but it doesn't matter - Wobbufet will encore, switch in Gyarados (Assuming of course it outspeeds starmie after a DD since those seem to be popular, or it can even get two DDs) Starmie is KO'd by a +2 EQ, and now Gyarados gets a clean sweep.

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Not absolute, in any case. Starmie recovers and on the first DD goes to another pokemon that can handle Gyarados, the concept of having only one pokemon to deal with a threat is foolish for this very reason: If it dies, you're screwed. As such, if you also had a Tangrowth or something, you'd be fine.

Tangerine said:

It didn't matter if you knew you had Starmie or not, whether you saved it or not, your fate was already sealed and that meant you had to figure out an alternative plan to deal with the Gyarados Problem now. You prepared for it? Too bad. Now half your team is swept by Gyarados.

Wobbuffet throws the game of counters out the window in this way.

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I'd say just adding in a Starmie and leaving the rest of your team Gyara weak is a bad strat in itself, as detailed above.

Tangerine said:

Being surprised by Wobbuffet and being surprised by a Bulky Gyarados is a completely different matter. Wobbuffet popping out leads to the the guessing game situation above, where you either let something set up on it's counter, or you sacrifice that Pokemon that could have been something your opponent wanted gone so he could get a clean sweep. The choice is a guess, based on very little information and even then, the information doesn't matter at this point.

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Yeah, they aren't the same thing, that is correct. But a Gyarados popping out is also a guessing game of sorts, you have no idea what it could do. It can Twave, Sub, DD or be a choice bander. At least with Wobb you have an idea of what you're up against. You may have less options, but they have few options as well.

Tangerine said:

Sure, but jointly walling attacks and launching an offensive takes most of the team to do it.

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Yes, Wobbuffett does that in one pokemon, but at a much lesser extent than the previously mentioned combos. Wobb is like all of it made easier to use, but with less total reward.

Tangerine said:

Wobbuffet simplifies this way too much (hence the slew of no skill arguments, even though it takes some skill) which is why I believe it's not a fair comparison. Think of Wobbuffet as an instant synergy boost for any sweeper.

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I would not say instant synergy boost. There is manuevering to go around and while it does help a sweeper get started, it's not a definitive thing by any means. The battles is a constant, sweeper gets going, sweeper stops thing, wobbu just allows the sweeper to get going.

Tangerine said:

Which is why there was no complaint of such shenanigans happening until Wobbuffet was unbanned D:

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Well yes, because Wobbuffet is quite unique in this and many aspects.

Tangerine said:

Well, a lot of pokemon aren't wholly different. The little differences make everything, and I haven't seen a convincing comparison between Wobbuffet and Blissey.

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I doubt you'll find a wholly convincing one, since most pokemon are fundamentally different. Do keep in mind that they have similar gigantic HP and stopping capabilities, however.

Tangerine said:

I would argue Encore has the power to stop others cold. The cornered rat will beat the cat if it knows exactly what the cat is doing, and the cat cannot escape.

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The same cat can choose what to do before the blob locks it into a move, if the cats toxics the Wobbuffet, it's a bad situation.

Tangerine said:

Yes but wobbuffet NOT having rest doesn't make it any less Broken, which was the original point.

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Tangerine said:

....D: it got cut off

I would say Wobbuffet needs to come in once or twice at most, and be used as a sacrifice some time later

Just because you know what it does doesn't mean you can stop it - see the entire "You can't prepare for Wobbuffet" arguments. And there's the "Will I be more screwed if I save it or if I sacrifice it to Wobbuffet?" deal, a shot in the dark you can't deal with until you know more pieces of the opponent's team. You're being forced to make this decision too early on limited information

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Ah, sorry about the cut off. Basically I was agreeing with you that if a Wobbs has to come in more than 2-3 times, something is wrong. But even then, coming in 2-3 times is quite hard for something that simply has poor resists and no healing. And I agree that at times it may be a difficult decision to make, as it is high risk, but you can't possibly say that most of the game isn't like that, no? Sure, Wobbuffet is different in some aspects, but at the end of the day he's just a pokemon with a trap ability and encore, and is good at what he does. That's generally what is to be expected of OU pokemon: Bad at some things, good at what they are meant to do. The main question is: Is the thing they are doing overpowered? Setting up a sweep? I wouldn't say so.

Yagami Light said:

Not absolute, in any case. Starmie recovers and on the first DD goes to another pokemon that can handle Gyarados, the concept of having only one pokemon to deal with a threat is foolish for this very reason: If it dies, you're screwed. As such, if you also had a Tangrowth or something, you'd be fine.

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If you know, or expect, that your opponent carries a certain threat, you will try to keep your counter alive. If Wobbuffet decides that it wants your counter dead or incapacitated, it will accomplish that, regardless of how hard you try to keep it alive.

So your team now consists of Starmie and Tangrowth. And we're going to, of course, have to assume Blissey as well. But by your logic, we should have a second special wall in case Wobbuffet kills Blissey, so let's add Snorlax as well. Oh, but wait - I've just noticed that all four of those pokemon have a huge problem with Heracross. So let's add in a Gliscor, and a Weezing just in case Wobbuffet kills Gliscor. So assuming your "multiple counters for every threat" proposal, everyone's forced to carry a team of six walls. Just because Wobbuffet could kill one at any time.

Wobbuffet is different from any other pokemon in the game in that the player it comes in against cannot decide if the pokemon they have on the field is worth saving, and if possibly sacrificing something else instead is in their best interest. By virtue of just being there, it removes one of the most important choices a player can make completely from their list of options.

Yeah, they aren't the same thing, that is correct. But a Gyarados popping out is also a guessing game of sorts, you have no idea what it could do. It can Twave, Sub, DD or be a choice bander. At least with Wobb you have an idea of what you're up against. You may have less options, but they have few options as well.

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It doesn't matter that all Wobbuffets carry the same moveset. That still doesn't mean you have options, because the smart Wobbuffet user will only bring Wobbuffet in against something Wobbuffet is guaranteed to beat, or at least screw up pretty badly, by virtue of setting up another pokemon. The safest "option," if it can be called that, that a player on the opposite side of the field from Wobbuffet has is to sacrifice whatever Wobbuffet just came in against, lest some other unknown threat get itself a free turn (or possibly two, if Wobbuffet came in against the counter to said pokemon).

Yes, Wobbuffett does that in one pokemon, but at a much lesser extent than the previously mentioned combos. Wobb is like all of it made easier to use, but with less total reward.

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So pretty much you're agreeing with the majority of us that Wobbuffet requires no skill to use. And I fail to see how it's "less total reward," when the advantage you get is either a dead counter to something you have that would otherwise rip through the opponent's team, or a free setup turn (or two) for something that can also rip through your opponent's team. Name me any other single pokemon who can do this all by itself.

I would not say instant synergy boost. There is manuevering to go around and while it does help a sweeper get started, it's not a definitive thing by any means. The battles is a constant, sweeper gets going, sweeper stops thing, wobbu just allows the sweeper to get going.

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Moreso, and easier, than any other thing.

Well yes, because Wobbuffet is quite unique in this and many aspects.

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Yes. Wobbuffet is the only thing that does what it does, and not coincidentally, no one complained before it was unbanned. No other pokemon allows you to set up a Garchomp/Lucario/Bellyzard sweep the way Wobbuffet does, regardless of the skill of your opponent and what moves they make, in most cases. It just freezes the match exactly where it is, and the other player is left with two options - sacrifice the poke they have out, or potentially allow something even more dangerous to set itself up. Or try and "predict" what the Wobbuffet user will do and make the potentially "safer" move, but unless Wobbuffet comes in against a Tyranitar or something that can down it in two hits (hint: it will not), you still end up sacrificing a pokemon, and generally one not of your choosing.

I doubt you'll find a wholly convincing one, since most pokemon are fundamentally different. Do keep in mind that they have similar gigantic HP and stopping capabilities, however.

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I can't believe you even bothered to write this, and by doing so, you've pretty much shown what little grasp of the issue at hand you actually possess. Wobbuffet is not being compared to Blissey for its walling ability. In fact, as a "wall," Wobbuffet is about the poorest choice you can make. Blissey does not have Shadow Tag, which means it will always remain fundamentally different from your and my favorite pink blob. An opponent can actually choose what they want to do against Blissey, and a good one will turn it into setup bait for a lot of their pokemon. Against Wobbuffet, all a good player can hope to do is get as much damage on it as they can before it inevitably kills them. This is hardly a comparison that anyone with a sufficient understanding of the metagame and the issues at hand sufficient to actually be participating in this debate would see fit to make.

The same cat can choose what to do before the blob locks it into a move, if the cats toxics the Wobbuffet, it's a bad situation.

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If Wobbuffet gets poisoned, it will use Safeguard and set up another teammate just the same. And don't forget that many Wobbuffets these days run speed EVs, so a slow opponent cannot pick their move before they are locked in with Encore. And don't say "but Blissey/Hippowdon can start running 252 speed plus Toxic to defeat Wobby," because that would be the definition of overcentralization, which nearly everyone agrees is grounds for being uber. And it still wouldn't work half the time.

Ah, sorry about the cut off. Basically I was agreeing with you that if a Wobbs has to come in more than 2-3 times, something is wrong. But even then, coming in 2-3 times is quite hard for something that simply has poor resists and no healing. And I agree that at times it may be a difficult decision to make, as it is high risk, but you can't possibly say that most of the game isn't like that, no? Sure, Wobbuffet is different in some aspects, but at the end of the day he's just a pokemon with a trap ability and encore, and is good at what he does. That's generally what is to be expected of OU pokemon: Bad at some things, good at what they are meant to do. The main question is: Is the thing they are doing overpowered? Setting up a sweep? I wouldn't say so.

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Wobbuffet generally needs to come in once to be effective. A lot of the time, this will be against something slower, who has just used a non-damaging move. In other words, it comes in with no threat to itself and does whatever the hell it wants, then leaves without much of a scratch to come in again later and potentially kill something or potentially set up something else.

Syberia said:

If you know, or expect, that your opponent carries a certain threat, you will try to keep your counter alive. If Wobbuffet decides that it wants your counter dead or incapacitated, it will accomplish that, regardless of how hard you try to keep it alive.

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That's a false statement. It will sometimes accomplish that. It doesn't come with a one-kill guarantee if your opponent knows what he's doing. If i don't want you to take out my Tentacruel because I've seen your Mixape, I'll just keep Toxic spiking you. Or Rapid Spinning.


At this point, I'd like to throw this question out in the open once more:

How can we even be arguing (worse, voting!) on Wobbuffet's (and Deoxys-E) Tier Status if there is no general standard definition of what is Uber, and we each have our own definition?

Well, if that's the case, the community on the whole must decide their qualifications for uber status, as Wobbs fulfills some people's ideas of ubers while going against others. I do understand that overcentralizations doesn't mean that much to you, so we'll place that aside, shall we?

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Of course, this is why I posted in the definitions of Ubers thread, and hopefuly people will read it and post about it already.

Not absolute, in any case. Starmie recovers and on the first DD goes to another pokemon that can handle Gyarados, the concept of having only one pokemon to deal with a threat is foolish for this very reason: If it dies, you're screwed. As such, if you also had a Tangrowth or something, you'd be fine.

I'd say just adding in a Starmie and leaving the rest of your team Gyara weak is a bad strat in itself, as detailed above.

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The thing is that if you HAVE to carry two things that can "handle" a threat for every threat in the game, then Wobbuffet has already done it's damage - it made certain types of team completely unplayable :)

Yeah, they aren't the same thing, that is correct. But a Gyarados popping out is also a guessing game of sorts, you have no idea what it could do. It can Twave, Sub, DD or be a choice bander. At least with Wobb you have an idea of what you're up against. You may have less options, but they have few options as well.

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The thing is the second you know what it's up to, you can play around with based on the situation you are in, and be able to use this information to make "the best decision" and play around it.

Once Wobbuffet pops in, it doesn't matter that you know what it can pull off. You can't play around wobbuffet even though you know what it is up to. It will always trap, and it will encore (I will assume you are competent enough to not switch in Wobbuffet to Spiritomb or something retarded like that), and then allow a Pokemon to set up. I don't think you can really make the comparison really without undermining what Wobbuffet does.

Wobb is like all of it made easier to use, but with less total reward.

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Less Total Reward? How so? How do you measure the reward in a Pokemon game? Can you prove this statement? Give me examples (even "theorymon" will do) where you quantify reward and show that Wobbuffet gives "less total reward", or something, since I don't quite understand this claim.

I would not say instant synergy boost. There is manuevering to go around and while it does help a sweeper get started, it's not a definitive thing by any means. The battles is a constant, sweeper gets going, sweeper stops thing, wobbu just allows the sweeper to get going.

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Wobbuffet allows the sweeper to get going in the face of it's main counter. I believe that's the thing that scares everyone :|

I doubt you'll find a wholly convincing one, since most pokemon are fundamentally different. Do keep in mind that they have similar gigantic HP and stopping capabilities, however.

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I'm not sure the "They have a lot of HP" makes them truly comparable. Maybe if you expanded your Blissey - Wobbuffet comparison so we can see the full reasoning behind it I'll find it convincing (although I doubt it)

The same cat can choose what to do before the blob locks it into a move, if the cats toxics the Wobbuffet, it's a bad situation.

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You're obviously going to avoid the common things that run Toxic, and if it runs Toxic, it doesn't matter since Wobby isn't there to try to KILL the cat, wobby is just there to trap it to give a free turn.

Sure, Wobbuffet is different in some aspects, but at the end of the day he's just a pokemon with a trap ability and encore, and is good at what he does. That's generally what is to be expected of OU pokemon: Bad at some things, good at what they are meant to do. The main question is: Is the thing they are doing overpowered? Setting up a sweep? I wouldn't say so.

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The thing is he's the ONLY pokemon that carries trapping ability and encore (Don't even mention Wynaut). It doesn't just set up a sweep, it lets you set up a sweep in the face of it's counter, it gives you free toxic spikes, it gives you a free turn to predict the switch as the opponent switches out from Encore, etc. It is essentially a free turn that the opponent can use to completely destroy your strategy. I would argue that it does have some aspects that is simply put, too much to deal with and to be asked to deal with.

Yagami Light said:

Not absolute, in any case. Starmie recovers and on the first DD goes to another pokemon that can handle Gyarados, the concept of having only one pokemon to deal with a threat is foolish for this very reason: If it dies, you're screwed. As such, if you also had a Tangrowth or something, you'd be fine.

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The point is that Wobbuffet instantly forces every team to practically carry 2 counters to every threatening sweeper out there as one of them can be disabled quite easily with Wobbuffet. Besides, if Starmie stays in on Wobbuffet, I see no reason why Wobbuffet wouldn't just stall Starmie out of its PP and kill it (I've done it to multiple Starmies on Shoddy, just ask Astamatitos)

Yagami Light said:

I'd say just adding in a Starmie and leaving the rest of your team Gyara weak is a bad strat in itself, as detailed above.

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Perhaps not every team has the room to add that "extra" Gyarados counter such as Tangrowth, since people want to handle other Pokemon as well...

Yagami Light said:

Yeah, they aren't the same thing, that is correct. But a Gyarados popping out is also a guessing game of sorts, you have no idea what it could do. It can Twave, Sub, DD or be a choice bander. At least with Wobb you have an idea of what you're up against. You may have less options, but they have few options as well.

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No, they have more options than you do, because you forget that the Wobbuffet user can also switch out. Garchomp is a highly predictable Pokemon in its movesets. Does that make Garchomp any less dangerous? How "predictable" Wobbuffet is should not be a factor in determining its uberness, once Wobbuffet is sent out against me, I know exactly what it is about to do, but what am I going to do about it?

Yagami Light said:

Yes, Wobbuffett does that in one pokemon, but at a much lesser extent than the previously mentioned combos. Wobb is like all of it made easier to use, but with less total reward.

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Wobbuffet does many "jobs" in one with the aid of its ability. Why is that not bad for the metagame?

Yagami Light said:

I would not say instant synergy boost. There is manuevering to go around and while it does help a sweeper get started, it's not a definitive thing by any means. The battles is a constant, sweeper gets going, sweeper stops thing, wobbu just allows the sweeper to get going.

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I'd much rather use Wobbuffet to remove a counter to my sweeper(s), myself, and that way my sweepers can get going naturally by themselves.

Yagami Light said:

Well yes, because Wobbuffet is quite unique in this and many aspects.
I doubt you'll find a wholly convincing one, since most pokemon are fundamentally different. Do keep in mind that they have similar gigantic HP and stopping capabilities, however.

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Wobbuffet is unique, we can all agree on that. Did this section have anything to do with why it should remain unbanned, though, Light?

Yagami Light said:

The same cat can choose what to do before the blob locks it into a move, if the cats toxics the Wobbuffet, it's a bad situation.

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Yes, it's a bad situation alright... for the cat as Wobbuffet Safeguards and then switches to anything that likes free turns like Smeargle, Garchomp, etc. etc.

Yagami Light said:

Ah, sorry about the cut off. Basically I was agreeing with you that if a Wobbs has to come in more than 2-3 times, something is wrong. But even then, coming in 2-3 times is quite hard for something that simply has poor resists and no healing. And I agree that at times it may be a difficult decision to make, as it is high risk, but you can't possibly say that most of the game isn't like that, no? Sure, Wobbuffet is different in some aspects, but at the end of the day he's just a pokemon with a trap ability and encore, and is good at what he does. That's generally what is to be expected of OU pokemon: Bad at some things, good at what they are meant to do. The main question is: Is the thing they are doing overpowered? Setting up a sweep? I wouldn't say so.

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I agree, Wobbuffet generally needs to just come in once and it's done its job. I think you're missing the point, though, Light, since Wobbuffet doesn't simply set up a sweep: it can dismantle any part of your team that I choose to take out, or come in on any wall for setting up that free turn that nothing else can do.

Lyfsaho said:

That's a false statement. It will sometimes accomplish that. It doesn't come with a one-kill guarantee if your opponent knows what he's doing. If i don't want you to take out my Tentacruel because I've seen your Mixape, I'll just keep Toxic spiking you. Or Rapid Spinning.

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If you're going to theorymon, then I'll send in my Lucario and get a free Swords Dance if you do anything other than attack me. This goes in circles, you and I both know it. And at the end of the day, the user of Wobbuffet has a huge advantage.

How can we even be arguing (worse, voting!) on Wobbuffet's (and Deoxys-E) Tier Status if there is no general standard definition of what is Uber, and we each have our own definition?

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Then we should all be playing Ubers, with all 493 pokemon allowed. In which case your Wobbuffet won't last 5 seconds. Judging by the number of posts arguing in this topic, I'd say the general Smogon community has a damn good idea of what's uber, and Wobbuffet fits that description. You already lost your argument on Marriland, now you're trying to come here and use the same arguments on a different group of people with hopefully a different result. Not going to happen.

Here's a log of me (anajalim) using Wobbuffet, against an opponent who is a high-ranked good ladder player. Note how Wobbuffet's Encore allowed me to switch in Forretress multiple times in order to set up on Pokemon it couldn't have set up on otherwise, and be able to spin away the TSpikes/SR on my side of the field. Wobbuffet didn't get a single kill, but I credit it for giving me the win in that game as it allowed me to "set up" my strategy without regards to what my opponent's team is.

So... a powerful threat helped beat an unprepared opponent. Is that what you're saying?

Nate River said:

So... a powerful threat helped beat an unprepared opponent. Is that what you're saying?

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How do you prepare for wobbuffet

Oh. Wait.....

You cannot prepare for Wobbuffet without adapting your whole entire team, and putting yourself at a disadvantage against everything else. So yes, an "overpowering" (I use quotes because it does not overpower the metagame in terms of sheer strength like Garchomp, but rather in terms of its ability to act as a team player) threat helped beat an opponent. The fact that they were unprepared is totally irrelevant.

Also, it seems as if the same 5-10 people are just going back and forth in circles at this point. Nothing new is really being said.

Syberia said:

You cannot prepare for Wobbuffet without adapting your whole entire team, and putting yourself at a disadvantage against everything else. So yes, an "overpowering" (I use quotes because it does not overpower the metagame in terms of sheer strength like Garchomp, but rather in terms of its ability to act as a team player) threat helped beat an opponent. The fact that they were unprepared is totally irrelevant.

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This is again theorymonning, please stop. Can you prepare for Garchomp without putting yourself at a disadvantage against something else?
Hell, get yourself a toxic spiker and a ghost, and you won't do badly versus Wobba.

Also, it seems as if the same 5-10 people are just going back and forth in circles at this point. Nothing new is really being said

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Agreed.

Tangerine said:

How do you prepare for wobbuffet

Oh. Wait.....

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Stick a Shed Shell on something you figure Wob will try to trap, allowing it to switch into a Spiritomb or something.

Just because it's not "I CANZ TAEK UR ATTAKZ ND OHKO J00" doesn't mean it's impossible. Threats can be prepared for; this one is just handled in a different way.

Lyfsaho said:

This is again theorymonning, please stop. Can you prepare for Garchomp without putting yourself at a disadvantage against something else?
Hell, get yourself a toxic spiker and a ghost, and you won't do badly versus Wobba.

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I can't argue against theorymonning without resorting to theorymonning. I can get myself a Toxic Spiker and all the ghosts I want, and if I even have one pokemon that Wobbuffet can exploit, it still will, and there's nothing I can do about it.

Garchomp has no business being in this thread, and furthermore your statement has no bearing on my argument one way or the other, because I believe Garchomp belongs in the ubers tier as well.

Nate River said:

Stick a Shed Shell on something you figure Wob will try to trap, allowing it to switch into a Spiritomb or something.

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That post made me lol. "Stick a Shed Shell on something" is not a counter to Wobbuffet because unless you have Shed Shell/Taunt/U-Turn/Baton Pass on everything, Wobbuffet is still going to find a way in. And don't try to tell me that actually employing a strategy like that is at all practical, it is not. It would actually be textbook overcentralization, and if people were to actually resort to that, Wobbuffet would be rocketed straight back to ubers without a need for this thread.

Nate River said:

Stick a Shed Shell on something you figure Wob will try to trap, allowing it to switch into a Spiritomb or something.

Just because it's not "I CANZ TAEK UR ATTAKZ ND OHKO J00" doesn't mean it's impossible. Threats can be prepared for; this one is just handled in a different way.

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http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41804

If you're "new to competitive battling" then you shouldn't be posting here unless you'd like to grace us with your blatant ignorance.

You clearly have no idea what you're talking about. Yeah, everything should carry Shed Shell to prepare for Wobbuffet, right? -_-

Apparently "something" is a synonym for "everything".

Wobuffet can't necessarily always tell what may have Shed Shell, U-Turn, Baton Pass, Roar, Whirlwind, Taunt, Torment, Skill Swap, Explosion, Gastro Acid, Spore... Not all of those are perfect, but the point is, there's a lot that can break Wobbuffet's hold on a team and either provide an opening for an actual counter or just make the current Pokemon able to fend off Wobbuffet itself.

Edit: I'm not claiming to be an expert. I'm claiming to be able to bring something to the discussion. Last I checked, there's no rule against that.

But the fact remains that if even one team member does not have a way of dealing with Wobbuffet, it will get screwed over. And it's not like any of those options actually kill Wobbuffet, they simply allow you to get away. So the Wobbuffet user will now know which of your pokemon can "counter" his Wobbuffet, and just not send it in against them.

Roar, Whirlwind, and Torment don't counter Wobbuffet as the first two have a negative priority, allowing Wobbuffet to Encore first and force you to use the last move you used instead. Torment fails to counter it, as it can just use Encore once before switching out. Explosion should not be considered much of a "counter" move either, as again, you're being forced to sacrifice one of your pokemon just because Wobbuffet appeared in battle. Gastro Acid and Skill Swap are learned by such a small fraction of the viable pokemon it's not even funny.

Lyfsaho said:

This is again theorymonning, please stop.

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This is stupidly hypocritcal, coming from someone who just a few pages ago had it pointed out to them that virtually every argument they've been using this whole time have, at the very least, been grounded in theorymon. You didn't reply to anyone who pointed out the several glaring flaws in what you've been saying, so taking the high road now achieves nothing. Especially when your Tentacruel example only 8 posts up was more theorymon. I think (hope) I can speak for everyone when I say: Cut the holier-than-thou bullshit. I'd rather discuss Wobbuffet than read your attempts to belittle everyone else.

With regards to your question:

How can we even be arguing (worse, voting!) on Wobbuffet's (and Deoxys-E) Tier Status if there is no general standard definition of what is Uber, and we each have our own definition?

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By the same token, how can you argue Wobbuffet isn't Uber if we have no clear-cut definition of what Uber is? This works both ways, and I think if you answered the question for yourself, you'd be answering it for everyone else as well.

But I'll go ahead and take a stab at it anyway: We can argue because we've had five months of Wobbuffet testing on the ladder, giving us ample time to playtest with/against Wobbuffet, thus giving us the experience necessary to make a judgement call (any decision will be a judgement call at the end of the day, statistics or not) on whether his addition to OU is a desirable one for the growth and development of the tier. Deciding that he's no good for OU leaves Ubers the only place for him to go, regardless of whether that tier is clearly defined or not.

SubVersion said:

This is stupidly hypocritcal, coming from someone who just a few pages ago had it pointed out to them that virtually every argument they've been using this whole time have, at the very least, been grounded in theorymon.

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I pointed out on the first page open to the public on this topic that theorymon wasn't going to solve anything. Alot of people theorymonned away, which leaves no choice but to a) ignore it or b) counter it with theorymon.

If you had read my posts, the only argument I expressed as such was that Wobbuffet is statistically not overcentralizing and therefore not Uber by smogon's previous d/p methodology.

You didn't reply to anyone who pointed out the several glaring flaws in what you've been saying, so taking the high road now achieves nothing.

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I responded to everyone who argued back on the matter of statistics. I ignored most the theorymon responses to my own theorymon (check option a) in the first paragraph).

I think (hope) I can speak for everyone when I say: Cut the holier-than-thou bullshit.

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You could do everyone a favor and speak just for yourself for once. I'm going to ignore the other few feeble attempted jabs you throw at me and proceed to the actual part of your topic which was posted with some rationality.

With regards to your question:


By the same token, how can you argue Wobbuffet isn't Uber if we have no clear-cut definition of what Uber is? This works both ways, and I think if you answered the question for yourself, you'd be answering it for everyone else as well.

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Indeed, this is the exact same issue which we face with the event moves ban (do we ban until proven legal, or unban until proven illegal?) so obviously, it depends on your side of the table.
In my post, I was adressing the discussion of Wobbuffet's Tier status as a whole - and since he is after all currently OU, we're debating whether to put him in Ubers, and not the other way around.

[/quote]

But I'll go ahead and take a stab at it anyway: We can argue because we've had five months of Wobbuffet testing on the ladder, giving us ample time to playtest with/against Wobbuffet, thus giving us the experience necessary to make a judgement call (any decision will be a judgement call at the end of the day, statistics or not) on whether his addition to OU is a desirable one for the growth and development of the tier. Deciding that he's no good for OU leaves Ubers the only place for him to go, regardless of whether that tier is clearly defined or not.

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Giving us the necessary experience? Fact is, he's 46th in usage this month on the ladder (and to my knowledge he has not deviated significantly from this number in the past couple of months) , so how many people have truly utilized him? Could Ipl not have topped the ladder with a team based around Gengar? Your explanation is the easiest because it's the simplest, but somehow the fact that 1000 shoddy users who registered on this community two years ago and stopped playing shortly after may now vote on such an issue seems disturbing. Then again, we're deviating from the purpose of this topic here, so let's get back to that.

Lyfsaho said:

I pointed out on the first page open to the public on this topic that theorymon wasn't going to solve anything. Alot of people theorymonned away, which leaves no choice but to a) ignore it or b) counter it with theorymon.

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Then (a) stop theorymonning, and (b) stop calling us out for theorymonning.

If you had read my posts, the only argument I expressed as such was that Wobbuffet is statistically not overcentralizing and therefore not Uber by smogon's previous d/p methodology.

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Which proves nothing, except that the methodology that things should only be uber if they are statistically overcentralizing is flawed. I suggest you read this post. It is not mine, but it sums up what I'd like to say just as well.

I responded to everyone who argued back on the matter of statistics. I ignored most the theorymon responses to my own theorymon (check option a) in the first paragraph).

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"I am going to only stick to one aspect of the argument, and conveniently ignore the other aspects when they show the opposite of what I want them to."

You could do everyone a favor and speak just for yourself for once. I'm going to ignore the other few feeble attempted jabs you throw at me and proceed to the actual part of your topic which was posted with some rationality.

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Have you actually read the overwhelming number of "Wobbuffet is uber" responses? I'd say that he speaks for all of those.

and since he is after all currently OU, we're debating whether to put him in Ubers, and not the other way around.

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We weren't given the chance to debate his introduction into OU, so that's irrelevant. And yes we're debating whether or not to put him back in Ubers, because we actually have test results to base it off of. Statistics are only one of these test results, and the least important one, quite frankly. Numbers don't tell us much about Wobbuffet's actual effect when it comes out into battle.

Giving us the necessary experience? Fact is, he's 46th in usage this month on the ladder (and to my knowledge he has not deviated significantly from this number in the past couple of months) , so how many people have truly utilized him? Your explanation is the easiest because it's the simplest, but somehow the fact that 1000 shoddy users who registered on this community two years ago and stopped playing shortly after may now vote on such an issue seems disturbing. Then again, we're deviating from the purpose of this topic here, so let's get back to that.

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If they registered 2 years ago, they can't be "Shoddy users who stopped playing shortly after." Shoddy has not even been around for two years. If they don't play any more, they probably don't care. If they don't care, why are they voting?

Syberia said:

That post made me lol. "Stick a Shed Shell on something" is not a counter to Wobbuffet because unless you have Shed Shell/Taunt/U-Turn/Baton Pass on everything, Wobbuffet is still going to find a way in. And don't try to tell me that actually employing a strategy like that is at all practical, it is not. It would actually be textbook overcentralization, and if people were to actually resort to that, Wobbuffet would be rocketed straight back to ubers without a need for this thread.

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No, think about this for a moment, since you can't carry a counter for wobbufect, then why not carry a sweeper to take advantage of wobbufect on their team. For instance lets take Gyarafr with or without taunt on it. after wobbufect takes someout send in your dos and use taunt/dd potentially causing a sweep for yourself just because wobbufect has no attacking moves and it bait for quite a bit of sweepers, not to mention a lot of ou pokemon hit it for super effective limiting its chances to switch in, and it may end up a useless pokemon.