[david stone]

(Repost with some rewording, as I think this all still applies)


Wynaut should be moved to BL, or maybe even UU. It lack's Wobbuffet's massive HP, thus severely nerfing its effectiveness, is too slow to Encore or Destiny Bond effectively, and most things can 1-2HKO it. If you're concerned with draws, then how does moving it to ubers solve that? A Wobbuffet-Wobbuffet match up or Wynaut-Wynaut match up in ubers is just as much of a draw as it is in OU. Just ban Leftovers on Wobbuffet and Wynaut if the only reason you put it onto ubers is to avoid draws. If Leftovers are not allowable, then the only reason to avoid them is for their stats and ability. Wynaut's stats are too low for its ability to have any use (It would be more useless than Trapinch, except against Curselax, which an Encorezam stops far more effectively). Without Leftovers, even Wobbuffet would need reconsideration, possibly moving it down to OU. No Leftovers Wobbuffet/Wynaut makes sense, as it finally gets rid of that implication that ubers=fake. I'd say it's the most "real" tier, or at least, the least arbitrary.


Vigoroth needs to be added to the list somewhere. All distinct Pokemon should be on there (a distinct Pokemon would be all final evolutions, and all pre-evos that are different in some meaningful way from their fully evolved counterpart). Vigoroth and Slaking are two completely different Pokemon. If Slowbro and Slowking, who are virtually identical, get two entries, then Vigoroth deserves it, too. I'd put it in UU, as it has lower attack and speed than Fearow, a lot less attack and worse trait than Granbull, etc. The only real advantage to it is to run Flail and Reversal on the same set, which stops people who rely solely on things like Aggron to wall Flailers, but then they're still lost against things like Hitmonlee, who is a far better Reversaler than Vigoroth, anyway.

If Kadabra and Chansey make the cut for being on the list for purposes of banning them from UU, then Pupitar might also belong in BL, thanks to that STAB EQ and Dragon Dance.

What is the general policy on NFEs in UU and NU?

Arcanine is definitely not more powerful than Gligar, it should be moved down to UU. Of course, I haven't tried out the special sweeper set, so maybe that is enough of a powerful thing to be banned, but I doubt it. Really, Arcanine isn't that much of a threat.

Umbreon should be dropped down to BL.


Really, we need some sort of thing where you just say "Pokemon X is OU, Pokemon Y is BL" so we know where the cutoff line is. How many Pokemon are we looking at for the OU tier before it gets dropped down to BL?