I will bait you and outsmart you
Join Date: Dec 2005
Foursquare, a sprained ankle, bottlecap ninjas, and wallball
Garchomp - OU
Latias - OU
Manaphy - OU
This was a strange, but exciting round of suspect sprinkled with multiple twists.
Anyways, I voted Garchomp OU for a couple of reasons, but I won't go over them because MrE's Free Garchomp essay covered most of the important points (though I'm not quite sure where he got 54% Garchomp usage from - I got 32.75%...whatever...my statistics comparison in in the Stage 3 thread). I will fully admit that Garchomp is indeed a terrifying sweeper and probably the best one during late game, but I felt that, often times he has problems getting off a kill during early game due to being restricted to a few good sets (compared to Salamence and its disturbing versatility, for instance), and late game sweeping isn't as easy as it seems due to his numerous checks and lack of resistances (which means he can take a lot of damage while trying to set up, only to have its sweep ended by a Bullet Punch or whatever). And thus, I wish to go over these checks.
Latias: With Choice Specs Draco Meteor, Garchomp will fall in a single blow, unless it is carrying Haban Berry and specializes in Special Defense to an extent. Latias is faster and is capable of swapping on any attack Garchomp has barring substitute or the obvious Dragon attacks, and end its terror. If you're using a Choiced Electric Pokemon such as Scarf Magnezone, though, be very careful about swapping Latias in as it can easily throw a Dragon Claw KNOWING that you'd switch.
Choice Scarf Garchomp: A revenger to non Haban Garchomps, easily OHKOing with Outrage. Even if Haban Berry is present, Scarfchomp still pulls off a pretty impressive 60% with Outrage, and thus is capable of stopping a late game Chomp sweep quite easily.
Skarmory: This is a different kind of check in that instead of trying to kill Chomp, it can take the hit and phase it away. Skarmory is a huge problem for Garchomp as it can set up Spikes in the early game which can really weaken Chomp in the late game. Skarm also walls Scarf, Band, and SubSD Chomp quite comfortably and turn it into nothing more than a Spikes set up bait. While yes, Swords Danced Fire Fangs do severely hurt Skarmory, Skarm can phase it out and rack entry hazard damage, weakening garchomp so that it has problems pulling off a late game sweep.
Bronzong: Not an entirely good check, but it’s there. Resistant to Chomp’s STABs, Gyro Ball, Trick, and Explosion are ways to stop Garchomp.
Weavile: Although is not seen much more due to the presence of Scizor, you can’t deny that it is still one of Garchomp’s best checks. Ice Punch with Life Orb still KOes through Yache Berry, is faster, can Ice Shard Yache Chomps, etc. Scizor isn’t swapping in to Weavile as freely as it did before due to Low Kick (though Weavile does get worn down extremely quickly but anyways that’s not thepoint!)
Starmie: Is faster, can survive one attack from Garchomp (unless it’s banded), and throws an Ice Beam at its face. Even with Yache Berry, Garchomp takes 72% minimum from Life Orbed Ice Beam.
Gyarados: There are ways this is done. In stall teams, Bulky Gyarados takes a maximum of 41% from a Swords Danced (minus Intimidate) Dragon Claw, and can easily phaze it out with Roar, building up entry hazard damage quickly on Garchomp. Offensive Gyarados takes 70% maximum from SDed DClaw, and returns fire with Ice Fang (it itself dies in the process though, but still), OHKOing those without Yache Berry.
Swampert, Suicune,Vaporeon: Bulky waters that can return fire with Ice Beam. Yache Berry can bite, though.
Hippowdon: Well, it handles the Choiced Garchomps. Swords Dance Garchomp beats Hippowdon handily though (though Hippo can Roar it away – bring entry hazards).
Mamoswine: The old Garchomp check returns . CB or Life Orb Ice Shard will OHKO those Chomps without a Yache Berry, and it still does a reasonable amount even with yache around (57% minimum from Jolly CBSwine).
Cresselia: There is no doubt that the old best Garchomp counter is still an excellent Garchomp stopper. Massive HP/Defense allows her to survive 2 Swords Danced Dragon Claws, and Garchomp is 2HKOed by Ice Beam in return regardless of Yache. Despite being somewhat of a Pursuit bait herself, she can set up Reflect and ease the Pursuit damage from TTar/Scizor. With Reflect up, Garchomp won’t be a threat until it wears off, so you can relax for a bit.
Infernape/Gengar with HP Ice: Decent checks (though both extremely frail). However, yache stops them from killing instantly.
Roserade: Well this one’s a funny case. Roserade can check Garchomp by setting up Toxic Spikes in the early game and severely limiting its sweeping prowess. Choice Scarf Roserade can also deal massive damage with Leaf Storm.
Manaphy: Can be EVed to survive Garchomp’s SDed EQ, and OHKO in return with Ice Beam. Unless there’s Yache Berry…
And Jolteon, and Scizor, and Gliscor to an extent, and Scarftran, and HPIce ScarfZone, and Ice Punch ScarfJirachi!
I’m sure you can you can fit two of these in your team! Just like how you’d need two Pokemon to stop Salamence! With 22 Pokemon to check Chomp, and perhaps more if you put more thought, you have a lot of options to stop it. There are also ways to bait and cripple Garchomp (such as Tyranitar and its Ice Beam, Metagross and its Ice Punch, etc).
Now let’s move on to the second thing with Garchomp: Sand Veil. You all focus on that when voting Chomp Uber, but…
- TTar was Chomp’s partner 36.66% of the time. Combined with Hippowdon it’s probably ~40%.
- If you don’t use a Sandstreamer in your team you’d technically have a 92% accuracy for 100% accuracy moves. That’s not too bad, is it?
- If Garchomp + TTar sounds like a combination that everyone should use, let’s recall that there are some people who wishes to minimize hax and thus not use Sandstreamer + Garchomp, balancing out the combination. So Sand Veil isn’t really that bad as people make it.
Now that I’ve spent my time on that, I would like to be brief with Latias Manaphy. Latias would’ve been voted Uber if I didn’t vote Garchomp OU as a form of balance, due to Latios being voted Uber (if you think this is silly then go away. I honestly didn’t find so much different about them!). Manaphy, quite unfortunately, was fairly underwhelming in Stage 3…
Last edited by Aeolus; Nov 23rd, 2009 at 6:02:42 PM.