Join Date: Apr 2010
Originally Posted by Fat reachzero
I am still seeing a lot of typing combinations being kicked around in the abstracts, and extremely general unsupported statements being thrown around.
I actually agree with what smallvizier posted, but he left it in the theoretical. I'd like to hear less about how well a type combination switches into Fighting attacks, and more about how it switches into Scrafty.
I sort of figured that for the first page of the thread, we'd want to start in more general terms, and that the discussion would evolve as we went on. But okay, point taken: specifics now.
I've picked out some pretty common Gen V pokemon (this should be enough for a start), and checked how the various type combinations fare against what I consider to be their most common attacks. Here are the pokemon I chose:
Blaziken, Chandelure, Conkeldurr, Dragonite, Excadrill, Ferrothorn, Garchomp, Gengar, Gliscor, Gyrados, Heatran, Latios, Reuniclus, Scizor and Tyranitar.
Then I checked whether they had an attack that would hit our type combinations super-effectively. Basically, which of our type combinations could sponge their attacks the most comfortably?
Defensive ranking based on this sample:
Detail of results:
9th place: Ghost
Flying/Ghost is hit super-effectively by Tyranitar (Crunch), Garchomp (Stone Edge), Scizor (Pursuit +Technician), Excadrill (Rock Slide), Conkeldurr (Stone Edge), Gliscor (Fling), Chandelure (Shadow Ball), Gengar (Shadow Ball), Latios (Psyshock), Reuniclus (Psychic) and Gyrados (Stone Edge). It is hit neutrally by all the rest.
Ouch! This typing is weak. I would hesitate to support it.
8th place: Poison
This suprised me at first: all those 4x resistances. Then I realised, how many pokemon actually have just Ground and Fighting moves? Very few. Flying/Poison is hit super-effectively by strong, common moves on Tyranitar, Garchomp, Excadrill, Conkeldurr, Chandelure, Gengar, Latios, Reuniclus and Gyrados.
Flying/Poison is great for switching in (4x res), but poor at staying in - unless your opponent is scarfed. But scarves don't seem so common these days... Garchomp and Chandelure might use them, but probably not the others.
7th place: Dragon
Flying/Dragon is hit super-effectively by Dragon moves. That means it gets hurt, in the current meta-game.
It is hit super-effectively by strong, common moves on Tyranitar, Garchomp, Excadrill, Conkeldurr, Heatran, Latios, Gyrados and Dragonite.
Joint 5th: Steel
I really expected Steel to be higher. I guess I got carried away with theorymon. When I thought about it, I realised most pokes are equipped to deal with Steels these days.
In particular, Tyranitar (Fire Blast), Garchomp (Fire Fang), Heatran (Fire Blast), Chandelure (Overheat), Blaziken (Blaze Kick), Gengar (Thunderbolt), Latios (Thunderbolt) and Dragonite (Outrage) are more than ready to take on a Flying/Steel CaP1. It does well against Gliscor and Ferrothorn, though.
Joint 5th: Dark
Hit super-effectively by strong, common moves on Tyranitar, Garchomp, Excadrill, Conkeldurr, Gengar, Latios and Gyrados. Hit at least neutrally by all fifteen.
4th place: Water
Water has always been a decent defensive type - hence the success of bulky waters. Flying/Water is stubborn too (hello Gyrados!), and has limited, predictable counters.
A Flying/Water CaP would be hit super-effectively by Tyranitar, Garchomp, Excadrill, Conkeldurr, Gengar, Latios and Gyrados. It would laugh casually at Blaziken, though.
3rd place: Fighting
Yes, Flying/Fighting is actually quite viable as a defensive type. That's great, because it's also more than handy as an attacker! And - for those who check these things - it's a new type.
A Flying/Fighting CaP1 would be hit super-effectively by Gliscor, Chandelure, Gengar, Latios, Reuniclus and Gyrados. It would take neutral hits from everything else.
2nd place: Electric
Hit super-effectively by Tyranitar, Garchomp, Excadrill, Conkeldurr and Gyrados. That's just five out of fifteen of the strongest pokemon in the game. Defends well against Ferrothorn (though that does more than just attack, of course).
Flying/Electric does well defensively, then, and it also makes its opponents predictable: those who can damage it tend to have either an Ice attack (special attackers) or a Rock one (physical attackers) - rarely both.
Offensively, though, Electric doesn't mesh that well with Flying.
1st place: Ground
This was already one of my favourites: now I like it even more. Only Latios and Gyrados can hit a Flying/Ground pokemon super-effectively with a common, powerful attack (i.e. one that would make the 'Very Good Move' list). Of course, they can bring Hidden Power - but you can bring Hidden Power against anything.
Just to re-iterate that: now that Water and Ice attacks are a little less common (though obviously Water is still around, and not just on rain teams), Flying/Ground pokemon are really hard to scare away. This typing would certainly step on a few toes (you may have one in your team already), but CaP1 would be very likely to stick around long enough to make a difference.
And of course, Ground is a pretty handy attacking type too. It hits Electric, Rock and Steel - the holes in Flying's coverage - super-effectively.
Pretty much this whole post was based on defenses. Hopefully someone else can talk about attacks. It also, of course, was limited to 15 pokemon. Still, I think it's relevant because they're pokemon which seem common to me.
To those who say, "why these ones? Why not 15 more" - well, detailing pokemon specifically takes longer than talking about types generally. That's why a thread naturally begins talking about types, and only later deals with specific threats. If you really want to check who can defend against Thunderus as well, then my suggestion is you check yourself - I've just done a bunch.
What I find interesting here is that the best defensive combinations with Flying - at least against these threats - are also some of the best attacking options. Ground in particular complements the holes in Flying's type coverage (Electric, Rock and Steel) quite well.
What really concerns me is "what does this mean for the concept?"
Clearly we don't want CaP1 to counter everything
. On the other hand, we want it to have plenty of opportunities to switch in, and stay in, in order to change the match.
This analysis has helped me understand the types defensively, but I'm still not sure which of them will be best for a momentum poke rather than a win-win-win poke. Except that, as I mentioned on page one, I feel Electric and Water would make our opponents' attacks more predictable than the other choices.
Last edited by smallvizier; Mar 8th, 2011 at 6:18:56 PM.
Reason: Adding a spoiler tag; new closing paragraph; extended sample