Smogon Community - View Single Post - CAP1 - Part 11a - (Non-Attacking Moves Discussion)

Rising_Dusk · Apr 3rd, 2011, 3:21:38 PM

I've been really busy, so I haven't really chimed in on this thread yet, but I do have an opinion so get ready to hear me roar!

Allow Lovely Kiss / Sleep Powder
I've been mulling this over, and I'm sold. Sleep is nothing like paralysis. We have sleep clause to contend with, the new sleep mechanics which (when combined with Prankster) give faster opponents multiple turns to wake up before we can even hit them once, and 75% accuracy isn't winning it any favors either. I don't want Spore or Dark Void, because that accuracy is a bit too high for my taste, but 75% is a good gamble, and I want CAP1 to have solid status conditions so that it can really steal momentum at any given stage. Many a game has been won by a well-played sleep move, and I think having one better than trashy Hypnosis in CAP1's repertoire will be important.

Disallow Disable
I was thinking, and while I'd probably be ok with it being allowed, this lets CAP1 muscle through checks such as Thundurus, Zapdos, Reuniclus, and Sigilyph (all of which pack only one move that can really threaten CAP1 massively) with relative ease. I'm not really keen on this, though, and so I think it should be disallowed.

Allow Stealth Rock, Disallow Spikes/Toxic Spikes
This may come as a surprise to some of you. Let me put this in perspective. Stealth Rock is not a huge deal. It's a good move, CAP1 has 4MSS anyway, and it might be a nice toy for early game momentum grabbing with Prankster. I think SR should be allowed. That said, WE MUST NOT GIVE CAP1 SPIKES OR TOXIC SPIKES! They are unspeakably broken when combined with priority from Prankster, and God help us if it gets them and recovery and Taunt. Trust me when I say that if it gets either of the spike hazards, it will become the standard set, it will be beyond amazing, and it won't be used like we want to with momentum grabbing mid-game. Just, please, yeah, don't do it or I will hurt you and force a CAP intervention.

Disallow Leech Seed
I'm trying really hard to not involve flavor in this, but either way, this is a little too stally and doesn't complement CAP1's other options very well. It doesn't really grab momentum per se, it just annoys opponents until CAP1 is forced out. So yeah, while I don't think it's particularly overpowering, it's unnecessary and a severe distraction. We shouldn't just give CAP1 every trick in the book.

Allow Wish, Recover, etc.
If we're allowing Roost, we should definitely allow these. Wish isn't super broken, and CAP1 can't afford to pack Wish + Protect in two moveslots for guaranteed healing anyway. Furthermore, the other recovery moves only differ in that they don't remove CAP1's Flying-type. Most things CAP1 will be healing against can't really capitalize on the lost Flying-type (It's not like CAP1 is Ground-weak without it). I think Recover is modestly better against the many Fighting-types of OU since it keeps your resistance to their attacking combination, but quite frankly, that's a good thing and helps CAP1 do its job. Full Recover does not in any way allow CAP1 to muscle through its desired checks and counters, and should be allowed.

Disallow Switcheroo, Trick
I don't like these moves. They distract CAP1 away from running bulky or utility sets and lure it into running Choice-locked sets that switch away their Choice item. CAP1 literally has no utility to be gained from picking up these moves, while they will distract from the concept if included in the movepool. I don't want to see Choice Specs Switcheroo CAP1.

Allow Ingrain
This is very cool with Baton Pass. Priority IngrainPass ahoy! That said, it has major downfalls for CAP1, namely the loss of the Flying-type Ground-immunity and the inability to switch right out of the opponent. This matters if something faster with Prankster comes in and Taunts you. Thundurus, Whimsicott, and Tornadus can all do this and put you in your place and checkmate CAP1. I think it's a fair trade and that Ingrain should be allowed.

Allow Rapid Spin
This is an intriguing idea, and perhaps one of the best momentum-grabbing moves in the game. CAP1 spins away all hazards and becomes the embodiment of momentum gaining for his team. CAP1 doesn't really pair up very well against the common spinblockers, although it appreciates priority Taunt and priority recovery. That said, it can't really muscle through Cursed Body Jellicent and will get burned eventually by Scald. Gengar is also faster and can do the SubDisable jig to drop Air Slash down and take advantage of CAP1 after. Dusclops is kind of screwed by priority Taunt if you run enough HP EVs to have 101 HP Substitutes, but you can't honestly do a whole heck of a lot to it back without Toxic. I think it would be an interesting option that we should allow movepool submitters to use.

Allow everything else
Acid Spray, Aromatherapy/Heal Bell, Block/Mean Look (You can't even Baton Pass these anymore...), Counter, Confuse Ray, Flame Charge (cool for Baton Pass! Not as bad as Agility!), Gravity, Hypnosis, Mirror Coat, Moonlight/Morning Sun/Synthesis, Pain Split, Psycho Shift, Rain Dance, Refresh, Sleep Talk, Swords Dance (bluh, this is stupid, but there's no reason to disallow it). All of these moves are cool, and are totally not broken or distracting of the concept in any way. They should be allowed. That said, I hope that them being allowed doesn't mean people put ALL of them on one movepool, since that would be insanity and wouldn't be cool. I think movepools should have some options to play with, though, and the freedom to use any of these moves.

Apr 3rd, 2011, 3:21:38 PM	#78
Rising_Dusk Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 4,742	I've been really busy, so I haven't really chimed in on this thread yet, but I do have an opinion so get ready to hear me roar! Allow Lovely Kiss / Sleep Powder I've been mulling this over, and I'm sold. Sleep is nothing like paralysis. We have sleep clause to contend with, the new sleep mechanics which (when combined with Prankster) give faster opponents multiple turns to wake up before we can even hit them once, and 75% accuracy isn't winning it any favors either. I don't want Spore or Dark Void, because that accuracy is a bit too high for my taste, but 75% is a good gamble, and I want CAP1 to have solid status conditions so that it can really steal momentum at any given stage. Many a game has been won by a well-played sleep move, and I think having one better than trashy Hypnosis in CAP1's repertoire will be important. Disallow Disable I was thinking, and while I'd probably be ok with it being allowed, this lets CAP1 muscle through checks such as Thundurus, Zapdos, Reuniclus, and Sigilyph (all of which pack only one move that can really threaten CAP1 massively) with relative ease. I'm not really keen on this, though, and so I think it should be disallowed. Allow Stealth Rock, Disallow Spikes/Toxic Spikes This may come as a surprise to some of you. Let me put this in perspective. Stealth Rock is not a huge deal. It's a good move, CAP1 has 4MSS anyway, and it might be a nice toy for early game momentum grabbing with Prankster. I think SR should be allowed. That said, WE MUST NOT GIVE CAP1 SPIKES OR TOXIC SPIKES! They are unspeakably broken when combined with priority from Prankster, and God help us if it gets them and recovery and Taunt. Trust me when I say that if it gets either of the spike hazards, it will become the standard set, it will be beyond amazing, and it won't be used like we want to with momentum grabbing mid-game. Just, please, yeah, don't do it or I will hurt you and force a CAP intervention. Disallow Leech Seed I'm trying really hard to not involve flavor in this, but either way, this is a little too stally and doesn't complement CAP1's other options very well. It doesn't really grab momentum per se, it just annoys opponents until CAP1 is forced out. So yeah, while I don't think it's particularly overpowering, it's unnecessary and a severe distraction. We shouldn't just give CAP1 every trick in the book. Allow Wish, Recover, etc. If we're allowing Roost, we should definitely allow these. Wish isn't super broken, and CAP1 can't afford to pack Wish + Protect in two moveslots for guaranteed healing anyway. Furthermore, the other recovery moves only differ in that they don't remove CAP1's Flying-type. Most things CAP1 will be healing against can't really capitalize on the lost Flying-type (It's not like CAP1 is Ground-weak without it). I think Recover is modestly better against the many Fighting-types of OU since it keeps your resistance to their attacking combination, but quite frankly, that's a good thing and helps CAP1 do its job. Full Recover does not in any way allow CAP1 to muscle through its desired checks and counters, and should be allowed. Disallow Switcheroo, Trick I don't like these moves. They distract CAP1 away from running bulky or utility sets and lure it into running Choice-locked sets that switch away their Choice item. CAP1 literally has no utility to be gained from picking up these moves, while they will distract from the concept if included in the movepool. I don't want to see Choice Specs Switcheroo CAP1. Allow Ingrain This is very cool with Baton Pass. Priority IngrainPass ahoy! That said, it has major downfalls for CAP1, namely the loss of the Flying-type Ground-immunity and the inability to switch right out of the opponent. This matters if something faster with Prankster comes in and Taunts you. Thundurus, Whimsicott, and Tornadus can all do this and put you in your place and checkmate CAP1. I think it's a fair trade and that Ingrain should be allowed. Allow Rapid Spin This is an intriguing idea, and perhaps one of the best momentum-grabbing moves in the game. CAP1 spins away all hazards and becomes the embodiment of momentum gaining for his team. CAP1 doesn't really pair up very well against the common spinblockers, although it appreciates priority Taunt and priority recovery. That said, it can't really muscle through Cursed Body Jellicent and will get burned eventually by Scald. Gengar is also faster and can do the SubDisable jig to drop Air Slash down and take advantage of CAP1 after. Dusclops is kind of screwed by priority Taunt if you run enough HP EVs to have 101 HP Substitutes, but you can't honestly do a whole heck of a lot to it back without Toxic. I think it would be an interesting option that we should allow movepool submitters to use. Allow everything else Acid Spray, Aromatherapy/Heal Bell, Block/Mean Look (You can't even Baton Pass these anymore...), Counter, Confuse Ray, Flame Charge (cool for Baton Pass! Not as bad as Agility!), Gravity, Hypnosis, Mirror Coat, Moonlight/Morning Sun/Synthesis, Pain Split, Psycho Shift, Rain Dance, Refresh, Sleep Talk, Swords Dance (bluh, this is stupid, but there's no reason to disallow it). All of these moves are cool, and are totally not broken or distracting of the concept in any way. They should be allowed. That said, I hope that them being allowed doesn't mean people put ALL of them on one movepool, since that would be insanity and wouldn't be cool. I think movepools should have some options to play with, though, and the freedom to use any of these moves.