Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat eric the espeon
There is no single sleep clause. Sleep clause is not to prevent two Pokémon from falling asleep, Sleep Clause is to prevent sleep being too powerful.
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That's the problem. What's "broken" is inflicting sleep on multiple Pokemon simultaneously. Not the act of using the move, but the end result of the move. And if the end result of the move doesn't result in the "broken" situation (2 Pokemon put to sleep by the opponent at the same time), there's no reason to disallow it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat eric the espeon
You misunderstand I think, the clause does not require the players to not know, it acts as if they do not for the sake of simplicity and clarity (you can't use sleeping moves if you've already put something to sleep, nice and simple), and disallows things which break it. This is different from the other versions of the sleep clause, but it is entirely consistent with the goal of the sleep clause and the break from familiarity is a small price to pay to avoid great complexity (defining knowledge of a move's ability to sleep a second 'mon) or the need for extra win conditions (every other proposed version of the clause).
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Why would you disallow people from taking advantage of knowledge that they have in order to perform a move that is guaranteed to not produce the "broken result" in the game? I'd take a hard to abuse rule that allows the players freedom over a non-abuseable rule that restricts legitimate strategies.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat aesoft
In this post, I'm going to consolidate an outline of the advantages and disadvantages of #2 and #4. #1 and #3 are similar enough to #4 that you guys can come to your own conclusions.
DISADVANTAGES OF MODIFIED ETE (#2):
- Disallows certain "risky" strategies that have a possibility of not resulting in two sleeping opponent pokemon, even if the probability is very high.
- Is not used in standard cartridge WiFi play.
DISADVANTAGES OF REMODIFIED CATHY (#4):
- Makes it possible to unintentionally end the game before either player has 6 fainted pokemon.
- Introduces an element of luck into whether or not a rule will be broken.
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For #4, Painting the element as "luck" is questionable. Players don't flip coins to make decisions. If you want to say "introduces an element of risk", fine, though that's much less questionable as a con. As for the first "disadvantage", if you're referring to misclicks, that's just as much a problem even with moves that don't violate Sleep Clause, and usually equally catastrophic.
As an addendum, I'd like to make one thing official: the "intent" of Sleep Clause. From how I see it, it's basically this:
Sleep as a status is so powerful that limiting the number of Pokemon a player can put to sleep at the same time is necessary for the balance of the game.
Given that, we reach the concept of the "broken state", which is that
having two (or more) Pokemon asleep at the same time is "broken". The issue that then results is how to determine when the rule is broken: when the sleep takes effect, or simply when it's attempted. #2 attempts to enforce the latter, all others enforce the former. If I was going to rephrase the cons you put, it would look more like this:
DISADVANTAGES OF MODIFIED ETE (#2):
- Disallows moves that the user knows would have a 0% chance of resulting in multiple sleeping Pokemon (sleep move on a sleeping known Natural Cure Pokemon, sleep move when the user knows the opponent's other Pokemon carries a sleep-healing item, sleep move when all of the opponent's other pokemon are statused already)
- Disallows certain "risky" strategies that have a possibility of not resulting in two sleeping opponent pokemon.
- Assumes user has 0 knowledge of the opposing team, when this may not be the case for a number of reasons, especially tournaments
- Is not used in standard cartridge WiFi play.
DISADVANTAGES OF REMODIFIED CATHY (#4):
- Makes it possible to unintentionally end the game before either player has 6 fainted pokemon.
- Introduces an element of risk into whether or not a rule will be broken.
notes:
- mentioned situations where the move is guaranteed to not inflict second sleep (most notable)
- removed reference to probability of inflicting sleep, since probability is situation dependent and can't really be determined
- mentioned note about assumption of 0 information- disallowing players from using information at their disposal is undesireable
- replaced "luck" with risk: luck would be if we implemented freeze clause like this, since freeze is 100% luck-based- the only situation in which luck might be present is using relic song, which is competitively irrelevant