Originally Posted by Fat Chieliee
damnit i was going to post resttalk coil ekans or something but then i realized that it doesn't really work, gdi
I'm posing Vullaby+Chinchou in a sec
Vullaby (F) @ Choice Scarf
EVs: 244 Atk / 196 Spd
Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Brave Bird
- Faint Attack
Chinchou (F) @ Eviolite
Trait: Volt Absorb
EVs: 52 Def / 232 SAtk / 220 Spd
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Volt Switch
- Thunder Wave
This core simply cannot counter the one presented. As Chieliee stated that the first thing that is done when Scraggy is out is switch to Vullaby, that implies that Chieliee is ALWAYS predicting Scraggy to set up a Dragon Dance. Quite frankly, this is not always the case, as when Scraggy sees threats such as Vullaby or Murkrow or something in the team preview, it doesn't start setting up until it knows for sure what sets the problem Pokemon have and if it can beat it. Keeping that and the fact that this core has no Ghost-type Pokemon, if I was playing with Scraggy, I would just be spamming Hi Jump Kick before I know I can set up to win.
236 Atk Scraggy Hi Jump Kick vs 0 HP/0 Def Vullaby: 69.57% - 91.3%
2 hits to KO
Possible HP Damage: 16, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 21
Always OHKOes with Stealth Rock in play unless you roll min damage. So 15/16 of the time, Vullaby just DIES right here and right now, with no damage done to Scraggy or Drifloon. Chinchou is just Dragon Dance bait.
Not a counter
Originally Posted by Fat Nanoswine
At first glance it looks like Koffing can take these two on pretty well since Scraggy isn't carrying Zen Headbutt, here's a set and I'll edit in reasoning and calcs (maybe a partner) later.
Koffing (M) @ Eviolite
EVs: 196 HP / 76 Def / 236 SDef
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Pain Split
- Clear Smog
- Sludge Bomb
Iss said pretty much everything I was going to about this set, and fuck him for doing it first, I say!! The problem with Koffing acting as a counter for ANYTHING is the lack of reliability in its healing. If it switches in to a Flying Gem Acrobatics from Drifloon, it will then lose to the subsequent Acrobatics + Shadow Ball because it CAN'T use Recover or something to heal up. Yes Koffing is never 2HKOed by any of the moves here, and remove Scraggy's boosts, it loses to Drifloon, for the reasons Iss showed. When their HP gets around even (which it will due to Sludge Bomb and Will-o-Wisp on Drifloon), Koffing can't heal up, putting it in a position to get OHKOed by Scraggy.
Not a counter
Originally Posted by Fat Trakyan
Ok, im hoping to do better here.
I'm posting this cause it needs more love.
Nosepass (M) @ Eviolite
EVs: 196 HP / 156 Def / 116 SDef / 40 Spd
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Pain Split
- Stealth Rock
- Volt Switch
Mankey (M) @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Vital Spirit
EVs: 116 HP / 196 Atk / 196 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Close Combat
- Seed Bomb
What Iss said >.<. When Scraggy is in against Nosepass, and I see a Mankey in the team preview (which is always scarfed), I'm not going to try setting up anyways. I'll be spamming Drain Punch most likely since I can guarantee full health against Nosepass lol and because HJK won't OHKO it.
236 Atk Scraggy Drain Punch vs 116 HP/0 Def Mankey: 68.18% - 81.82%
Drain Punch easily 2HKOes Mankey. And when you switch in Mankey, I'm just going to switch in Drifloon! The coverage move to kill Drifloon will either be Assurance or Thunder Punch, which Scraggy can set up on. You'll either Close Combat, thus letting Drifloon come in for free, or killing it on the switch.
1) If you Close Combat, I will probably just use Acrobatics here. When you switch in Nosepass, I just go back to Scraggy and do the same thing as before. Both Nosepass and Mankey end up dying.
2) If you accurately predict the switch and use either Assurance or Thunder Punch, then Scraggy gets to set up to +2 before Mankey can come back in and threaten it, putting it in a position to easily sweep your team. This is actually the preferred situation.
The only way this core has even the slightest bit of a chance is if it accurately double switches like 20 times, and that just isn't very likely.
Not a counter
Originally Posted by Fat iss
always counter the core with itself!
Drifloon @ Focus Sash
Naive | Unburden
evs: 36 HP / 196 Atk / 4 Def / 36 SpA / 196 Spe
move 1: Acrobatics
move 2: Shadow Ball
move 3: Substitute
move 4: Will-O-Wisp
Staryu @ Eviolite
Timid | Natural Cure
evs: 36 HP / 196 SpA / 236 Spe
move 1: Hydro Pump
move 2: Recover
move 3: Thunderbolt
move 4: Rapid Spin
I really had hoped to find a neater counter than this, but with a lot of solid Drifloon counters already taken, I really didn't have much choice.
Anyways, on to the actual countering. I'm just going to assume that there are no hazards on either side of the field, as Staryu has Rapid Spin and seeing as the Ghost-type on the other team is Drifloon, it'll probably get a chance to spin away hazards.
If Scraggy is out:
Scraggy cannot simultaneously attack Drifloon and set up Dragon Dance. If it Dragon Dances on the switch-in, it then has to Crunch. Acrobatics, even with half power, will still easily 2HKO Scraggy (66.66 - 85.71%), meaning Scraggy cannot try to get 3 Dragon Dances to outspeed. Once it Crunches, Focus Sash and Unburden activate, allowing Drifloon to outspeed and kill Scraggy and then outspeed and kill the opposing Drifloon. If Scraggy uses Crunch on the switch-in, Drifloon will simply OHKO Scraggy (123.8 - 152.38%) with the boosted Acrobatics. Shadow Ball always OHKOs the opposing Drifloon (100 - 123.07%).
If Drifloon is out:
Switch in your own Drifloon. Acrobatics or Shadow Ball will take Drifloon down to Focus Sash, which activates Unburden. If they Destiny Bond you (why), just spam Will-O-Wisp (you still have your Sash intact, so when they attack, you'll outspeed the turn after). As this Drifloon is Naive, it outspeeds the opposing Drifloon, OHKOs with Shadow Ball, and then OHKOs Scraggy with Acrobatics. Calculations have been shown already.
The thing is, assuming Stealth Rock is automatically removed since you have a Spinner is iffy as you can guarantee them having a Ghost, due to Drifloon. And because your Drifloon relies on its Focus Sash, you HAVE to get Stealth Rock out before you can switch to it, 100% of the time, every time. So let's say there is Stealth Rock up at one point and you haven't been able to spin it right away. Scraggy comes in. +1 sweeps your core. Now let's say Stealth Rock is up, and you get Staryu in for free. On that, I can switch to Drifloon to block Rapid Spin rather reliably as you HAVE to get the spin off (and otherwise you're making predictions here which hurts the status of this core). Staryu will not always OHKO Drifloon with Thunderbolt (though it generally will), who can then Acrobatics and Destiny Bond Staryu. Rocks are still up. Or, I can switch to Scraggy predicting the Thunderbolt (not a hard prediction). Thunderbolt + Hydro Pump will never KO Scraggy. Now, you HAVE to use Rapid Spin. Scraggy can set up to +1 or use HJK to smash Staryu (not a KO but a 2HKO but w/e it's hard) on the free turn guaranteed by the necessary Rapid Spin. Now there is nothing forcing Scraggy to stay in...in fact, if Stealth Rock is up originally, you can somehow get Stealth Rock up again and repeat the same process!
The necessity of keeping Stealth Rock off with this core makes it difficult for it to be seen as a counter, especially since there are many possibilities for things to go wrong (Staryu does not always OHKO Drifloon with Thunderbolt, Drifloon does not always OHKO Scraggy with a normal Acrobatics since it's Naive > Naughty, Hydro Pump can miss against Scraggy, etc). Since these possibilities add up, and since this core always gives a free turn to do a lot of damage to the Scraggy / Drifloon user when Stealth Rock is up (and this team will have to have Stealth Rock since Drifloon desperately needs it), I cannot consider this core a full counter.
PS it gets smashed even more when Iss uses Kabuto like he originally wanted to ;)
Not a counter
Originally Posted by Fat spuds4ever
I'd like to reserve croagunk, will get to the core on monday or later today:
Well, I'm probably not getting any points for originality, but w.e, here we go.
EVs: (Don't have access to PO, but pretty much max defense with the rest divided in special attack, HP and attack)
Dry Skin, Relaxed
EVs: (see croagunk, effectively max attack and 12 sp. def with the rest in HP)
Rock Head, Adamant
Pretty simple core really and actually works quite well in reality if you add in a levitater and give it a few tweaks. Croagunk switches in easily on scraggy (this would have been quite a lot tougher if it was carrying zen headbutt), taking maximum 31% from hi jump kick and 2hkoing back with drain punch and vacuum wave (scraggy will only possibly get a 2hko if it gets a crit and croa switches in on a layer of spikes). The former doing minimum 71% and the latter doing minimum 47%, meaning that scraggy will only get a chance to attack once.
If scraggy switches drifloon into the drain punch, aron can still switch in easily to drifloon, taking a pitance from acrobatics while HP fire fails to break its subs. From there, aron can toxic drifloon to avoid destiny bond or head smash it if you predict a HP fire for a OHKO.
If drifloon switches out to scraggy (aron will have a sub up regardless), scraggy will take a whopping minimum 85% from superpower where croagunk can switch in again and KO with vacuum wave and then just spam sucker punch if it's toxiced or go back to aron, who should be very healthy if it isn't toxiced.
Requires a tiny bit of prediction, but what doesn't when you're playing around the fastest destiny bond in the tier?
Now it is currently impossible to do anything with this core as you haven't mentioned the EV spreads. The particular EV spreads are incredibly important in figuring out if something can counter, as those individual HP points are what we use particularly to see if the above core wins or loses. I do, however, think your core still loses. I will be basing this off the 31% you had stated, but I will give you a more exact approximation when you actually post an EV spread (still think it's a bit obnoxious that you don't have one but w/e just post it later).
Now here's the thing. When I see shit like Croagunk on the opposing team, I'm not just setting up Scraggy when I get it in! Honestly, I'm not! I spam the most powerful move I have at the time in order to weaken the Pokemon that will probably switch into Scraggy. It's just those obvious things that people here are assuming don't happen.
Scraggy is in, uses HJK as Croagunk switches in. Since I don't know how much HP you'll take from Stealth Rock since I don't know your EV spread, I'm going to keep this in terms of percentage, even though that is rather iffy. Takes 6.25% + 31% from HJK, or I'll just guess and say around 25% from a normal HJK? IDK NEED A SPREAD. so let's say Gunk takes the SR / HJK and now has 68.75% left. Now, when I handle Gunk with Scraggy, my main thing is NEVER LET IT DRAIN PUNCH EVER. So when you use Drain Punch, I'm switching to Drifloon here. But the thing is...Aron is a really really really obvious Drifloon check. As in, so obvious that I will...double switch to Scraggy 100% of the time I'm not even making predictions. And then we're back in the same situation. I'm going to HJK again, and you will switch in Gunk and take more Stealth Rock and then get HJK'd again. Notice how I AM NOT setting up. At this point, you're at like 37.5% left assuming that 25% was accurate. If I was doing more, I might KO you here, otherwise, I don't know. Well I'll switch back to Drifloon, and if you predict that, you might go for the Shadow Ball but that won't OHKO. With Drifloon, I'll use Acrobatics. You can either leave Gunk is predicting I switch back to Scraggy, or switch in Aron. DGAF, I'm sacking Drifloon here, do what you want. I then go to Scraggy (who is at full health), set up to +1, either sponge a Superpower, or watch you switch back to Gunk. If I sponge a Superpower, I'm going to use Drain Punch to get most of my HP back, so I can live a Vacuum Wave from Gunk after that. If you switched back to Gunk, I'll HJK there and KO and sweep your team with a full health Scraggy.
While I only have to make a single simple obvious double switch to guarantee I come out on top, you need to make predictions throughout (Superpower the switch, predict if Drifloon is coming out or staying in, Shadow Ball or Drain Punch?) etc the entire time to have a shot, and you still don't always win.
Not a counter
Ps, logs on #littlecup to show you I'm better than Iss...
Originally Posted by Fat prem
Murkrow @ Choice Scarf
192 Atk / 88 SpA / 188 Spe
murkrow obviously threatens both of these pokes with se STAB attacks. scarf is the better option to beat scraggy after it uses DD. it can only revenge scraggy but thats generally how most of its counteres work anyway (mienfoo sucks at countering scraggy lol). brave bird easily brings down scraggy, so with murkrow scraggy is a nonissue unless you somehow suck at let it get +2. for drifloon, you have two options in either dark pulse or sucker punch. dark pulse would probably be the better option most of the time if onyl because people woudl expect the sp and use destiny bond. even though murkrow dies from that he has effectively beat drifloon. murkrow cannot take a gem acrobat, but can possibly take one without the gem if you predict wrong. before it uses its gem murkrow obviously wins.
ya its not very creative so i might make another post later on this.
236 Atk Scraggy Hi Jump Kick vs 0 HP/0 Def Murkrow: 109.09% - 127.27%
100% chance to OHKO
Not a counter