Join Date: Feb 2012
Arceus (Update) (QC 3/3)
Credit goes to Fireburn
for the original analysis and Poppy
for the previous WIP update. Thanks!
Revamping my previous work on Wallceus's AC.OVERALL NOTES:
NOTES WITH PREVIOUS STATUS REPORTS
- Throughout this entire analysis:
- Some concision may be done when necessary.
- Significant expansion on teammates
- All "it, its, etc." will be changed to the appropriate "He, His, etc." format when applicable.
Does QC want a Choice Band set as a set or OO? To be added as a set...
- Initial notes were made by Poppy. Check his WIP thread. He did some fantastic work! So I am crediting once again...
- Remember, this thread is a continuation of his update.
- "Checks and Counters" Notes for the sets are listed below the Checks and Counters Section. Just so it is in one place for note organization...
- Previous Status Reports were as follows (in order of first appearance):
Update in progress based on shrang, and Theorymon notes!
Update in progress based on Poppy, shrang, and Theorymon notes!
New threats mentioned!
Finished Checks and Counters!
Currently working on CB set - WIP! I'll make a post later once finished!
Almost done, just have to finish teammates section for CB set. I'll post when I'm completed. Until then... QC?
Finished updating! For QC, notable sections to particularly check are the "Checks and Counters" and "Choice Band."
Arceus-Fighting, Forretress, Landorus-T, Sableye, Bronzong, and Hippowdon have been tested. Test results will be posted soon.
Right now, I'm testing the validity of Physically Defensive Ho-Oh and CB Metagross.
Please check the Checks / Counters section! Still determining Bronzong/Arceus-Fighting placement. Which works better in your opinion for position 6, Bronzong or Arceus-Fighting?
Still determining placement of Groudon V.S. Hippowdon. Thoughts?
Analysis is now fully QC checked! Writing will commence shortly.
If possible, please check Wallceus's Checks / Counters section. Are there any more possible checks / counters that might warrant a mention? Thanks.
Working in reverse order (Unreleased to "Overview"). Currently on revamping. Will post everything once finished.
UPDATE ANALYSIS NOTES:
<p>After the pre-battle tintinnabulation is completed, please stare in pure, unadulterated horror and ominous presentiment at what is unequivocally the best and most versatile Pokemon in the game. Dare not incur Arceus's divine wrath, or else the consequences shall be severe and merciless, and life shall become but an evanescent wisp.</p>
- Needs to be updated! More competitive information is necessary while retaining flavor (which may be subject to change...). See Project: Arceus Overview Renovation for more details.
name: Extreme Killer (Swords Dance)
move 1: Swords Dance
move 2: ExtremeSpeed
move 3: Shadow Claw / Shadow Force
move 4: Earthquake / Brick Break / Recover
item: Life Orb / Silk Scarf
evs: 88 HP / 252 Atk / 168 Spe
<p>Thanks to Arceus's supreme bulk and the priority of ExtremeSpeed, this set is extremely difficult to revenge kill. Combine it with a meaty base 120 Attack stat, Swords Dance, and STAB on said ExtremeSpeed, and you get one of the most frightening late game sweepers in the entire game, capable of decimating offensive teams and cleaning up weakened defensive teams with ease.</p>
<p>Swords Dance will boost the power of Arceus's STAB ExtremeSpeed to horrifyingly powerful levels, devastating anything in Arceus's way that isn't resembling a physical tank. With just a Silk Scarf and Swords Dance boost, it is more than strong enough to OHKO even the bulkiest of Uber titans, such as Mewtwo, Kyogre, Reshiram, Palkia, Zekrom, and Ho-Oh. Shadow Claw is necessary to allow Arceus to repel Ghost-type Pokemon such as Giratina-O, who can come in on ExtremeSpeed without any hassle. However, Shadow Force provides a good deal more power, so much so that Lugia and Giratina risk being OHKOed by Shadow Force after taking Stealth Rock damage provided Arceus has used Swords Dance once, is Adamant, and is holding Life Orb. Shadow Force also alleviates any fears about Wobbuffet. Unfortunately, Shadow Force's charge turn makes it easy for the opponent to play around.</p>
<p>Earthquake enables Arceus to break down Rock- and Steel-type Pokemon that could otherwise take ExtremeSpeed, such as Dialga and Tyranitar. Brick Break isn't nearly as strong against Dialga or Heatran, but it is significantly more effective against Ferrothorn, who can otherwise annoy Arceus with Leech Seed. Recover keeps Arceus around longer to get in more boosts, but it limits coverage quite a bit.</p>
<p>The given EVs and nature give Arceus maximum power while granting enough Speed to outpace Rayquaza and all Pokemon that sit at the base 90 threshold. However, if Rayquaza is not an issue, one can choose to invest all of the Speed EVs into HP for additional bulk, allowing Arceus to take hits more effectively while setting up. Overheat is an additional option to take down Skarmory, but its effectiveness is nullified in the rain. A Jolly nature with maximum investment in Speed can also be used to get the jump on Terrakion and slower variants of Ghost Arceus and Steel Arceus, but it affords Arceus much less bulk and power. Life Orb is the preferred item for the great power boost it affords Arceus, but Silk Scarf grants a nice buff to ExtremeSpeed while preserving Arceus's bulk.</p>
<p>Despite the sheer threat presence this set has, it can still be stopped by most dedicated physical walls--other Arceus, Lugia, Skarmory, and Giratina. Common Choice Scarf carriers that resist ExtremeSpeed, such as Terrakion, Dialga, and Heatran, can take a hit from Arceus and severely damage or fell it with Close Combat, Draco Meteor, or Fire Blast respectively. Wobbuffet can easily trap and dispatch Choice Scarf users thanks to its ability, Shadow Tag. It can also utilize Encore to buy Arceus a much-needed turn to use Swords Dance safely. Pairing Tickle Wobbuffet with a Pursuit user such as Scizor also makes for a quick way to eliminate Lugia. Powerful special attackers such as Kyogre and Heatran can deal with most physically defensive Arceus. Giratina, Lugia, and Skarmory are also easily fried by Zekrom and Reshiram's STAB Electric- and Fire-type attacks, respectively. The latter, however, will need sunlight support to reliably take on Lugia.</p>
Primary EV Spread will be changed to 240 HP / 252 Atk / 16 Spe while using Adamant.
- Short paragraph on other EV spreads will be added for AC - AKA discussion on Speed benchmarks
- EX: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe Jolly in combination with Life Orb
- Will mention how this spread Speed ties at worst with opposing Arceus formes who might try and cripple with Will-O-Wisp.
- Emphasis on how this spread is a perfectly viable alternative as opposed to a "lesser" alternative.
- Item Slash Order will be Silk Scarf / Life Orb / Lum Berry
- Silk Scarf boosts the power of ExtremeSpeed without compromising bulk.
- Life Orb is the second slash due to its 10% damage recoil
- Will be stressed for Jolly variants
- Recoil damage hurts bulk
- Still a very important item as it grants much more power for coverage moves as well as ExtremeSpeed - enough for some notable OHKOs.
- Best item against His "general" counters, in particular Lugia.
- EX: Arceus without Life Orb is unable to OHKO Terrakion with an unboosted Earthquake, so it will be mentioned if length permits.
- While Terrakion can be picked off with ExtremeSpeed, Terrakion can switch out the next turn to do whatever.
- Arceus at +2 without Adamant Life Orb is unable to OHKO Kyurem-B with ExtremeSpeed without SR. Kyurem-W can be OHKOed with Adamant and no Life Orb (Silk Scarf instead), but it is a 43.75% chance. Even with Life Orb and Adamant, it's still a chance (Though it is quite good with Adamant... 87.5% for Kyurem-W and 37.5% for Kyurem-B). This is assuming no bulk investment for the Kyurem formes.
- Arceus with Lum Berry gets some status protection, but the power drop is very noticeable
- EX: Will sometimes fail to OHKO Palkia or Mewtwo after SR with +2 ExtremeSpeed. Will never OHKO Zekrom after SR. Kyurem-B has a 56.25% chance of being OHKOed after SR with no bulk investment. Kyurem-W is always OHKOed after SR with no bulk investment.
- Leftovers will be placed in AC; will mention how it works well with a bulky spread and with Recover.
- Thunder will be AC mentioned, as it is (only) useful against Skarmory in rain. Hurts coverage significantly though.
- Safeguard and Substitute will be AC mentioned; it can be useful against status and revenge killers (For Substitute). Hurt coverage significantly though.
- Grass Knot will be AC mentioned; it 2HKOes Groudon and Hippowdon. OHKOes Unaware Quagsire too. Hurts coverage significantly though.
- Fire Blast will be AC mentioned; it has increased utility against Ferrothorn and Forretress. Recommended over Overheat for any item besides Life Orb.
- Dragon Claw /
Outrage will be AC mentioned. Much better against Giratina-O and Giratina, but far worse against Ghost Arceus and Lugia (NOTE: Neutral Silk Scarf ExtremeSpeed is actually more powerful than a super effective Shadow Claw, so Silk Scarf is probably the preferred item for Dragon Claw). Bronzong is negligible as you still lose to it with Silk Scarf Shadow Claw. NOTE: Outrage is arguably better against Giratina than Shadow Force, but has a nasty locking effect - Outrage is horrible.
S hadow Force to be deslashed and put into AC? Or should it stay slashed? Right now, it's slashed. Shadow Force DOES have obscene power though... It's still used a fair bit according to Moveset Analysis. It remains a slash.
- Leaning towards keeping it as a slash. However, a larger emphasis will be placed on its advantages/disadvantages over Shadow Claw (Which is still the main slash). SUPERIMP NOTE: Additional notes subject to length of analysis.
- Spikes/Toxic Spikes are great when paired with Shadow Force. Highly recommended. Helps to significantly increase the chance of a possible OHKO on stuff like Giratina. - AC
- Better against Giratina/Arceus-Ghost/Giratina-O, worse against Lugia (Assuming no Power Herb + SR, but that's AC). - SC
- Normal-type Pokemon are annoying as they are immune. This includes stuff like other Arceus-Normal and Blissey/Chansey. Helps to deal with them before your sweep. - SC
- Has a charge turn. Makes it easy to play around if not used properly (This is why the main slash is Shadow Claw). - SC
- Allows Him to "evade" Will-O-Wisp, Roar, etc. during the charge turn. Shadow Claw doesn't have this option, so it's vulnerable to these annoyances. In case you're wondering, that sucks. - SC
- Shadow Force is weak to Substitute users. Not too much of a problem though as Giratina/Arceus-Ghost don't really carry Substitute. Giratina-O/Lugia may though. - AC
- Shadow Force breaks through Protect/Detect. Shadow Claw doesn't. Minor point though - AC
- Obscene power with Life Orb and Adamant. Still works without, but you will need a bit more prior damage on stuff beforehand if applicable - AC
- Completely destroys Arceus-Ghost. Max bulk? No problem. Allows Jolly Life Orb variants to win more times on average against this threat. - SC for Arceus-Ghost part, possible elaboration in AC
- Two Shadow Claws outdamage one Shadow Force. This however assumes Arceus is not "crippled" before the 2nd one whether Will-O-Wisp or Reflect. Shadow Force can only be "crippled" by Reflect - AC
- Shadow Claw is arguably a "safer" move to spam. Significantly more PP and doesn't leave you as vulnerable to Normal-type Pokemon switch-ins. Shadow Force has little PP. - SC
- Mention of Power Herb + Shadow Force combo - AC
- All previous mentions in the original analysis - SC
name: Wallceus (Physical Wall)
move 1: Will-O-Wisp / Reflect
move 2: Return
move 3: Recover
move 4: Roar / Ice Beam / Perish Song
evs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
<p>In addition to being a nigh unstoppable sweeper, Arceus can also function as a nearly unbreakable wall. Arceus's excellent HP, Defense, and Special Defense stats already lend it to taking hits well, and Recover as well as a litany of support and coverage moves only sweeten the deal. Although its Normal typing isn't the best pick for a defensive Pokemon, a lone weakness and the ability to hold Leftovers are a couple of huge advantages Normal Arceus can boast over its other formes.</p>
<p>Normal Arceus generally lends itself more to taking physical hits, and with good reason. In addition to a certain fat pink blob being far better of a dedicated special wall, Arceus learns a couple of useful moves to disable physical attackers, namely Will-O-Wisp and Roar. The former allows Arceus to disable nearly every physical sweeper in Ubers—Groudon, Rayquaza, other Arceus, Garchomp, and Zekrom, to name a few—for the rest of the match with a crippling burn. Will-O-Wisp also saps the afflicted opponent's HP, allowing Arceus to simply keep healing itself with Recover until the burned opponent faints. However, Will-O-Wisp's accuracy is shaky and it does nothing to Fire-type Pokemon such as Ho-Oh. Reflect, although it only lasts five turns, does not miss and also benefits the whole team. Return provides a solid STAB attack that can cause a nice chunk of damage to most Uber Pokemon, who generally have lower Defense.</p>
<p>Arceus can run quite a few options in the last slot. Roar is generally the most useful choice, as allows Arceus to phaze away the opponent's physical attackers after they have been neutralized by Will-O-Wisp or Reflect, while spreading entry hazard damage around the opponent's team. Ice Beam gives Arceus a way to kill off the likes of Groudon, Zekrom, Rayquaza, and Garchomp more quickly, and is a useful move in general as a lot of Pokemon in the Uber metagame are weak to Ice-type attacks. Lastly, Perish Song provides a way to force switches while stopping last-Pokemon stat boosters such as Calm Mind Kyogre and Bulk Up Dialga from completely laying waste to your team.</p>
<p>The given EVs allow Arceus to take physical hits as well as it possibly can. An alternate EV spread of 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe with a Jolly nature allows Arceus to capitalize on its superb base 120 Speed stat. By outspeeding most other physical attackers, such as Terrakion and Garchomp, Arceus can cripple them with Will-O-Wisp or set up Reflect before they can land an attack. However, this change diminishes Arceus's ability to actually switch in on physical hits. If Ice Beam is being used, it is recommended to switch Return to Judgment and run an Bold (or Timid) nature so as to not gimp its power.</p>
<p>Arceus's offensive movepool is enormous and it can easily run another attack to gain coverage on whatever you need to hit. Flamethrower stops Ferrothorn and Forretress from using Arceus as setup fodder. Earthquake is also an unexpected move on a defensive Arceus. Its main use is to shatter Heatran into a million tiny pieces, who otherwise walls this set completely. It also knocks around Excadrill and Dialga for good damage. Although it doesn't fit into the offensive move category, Refresh can help keep Arceus free of Toxic, which would ruin its walling capabilities.</p>
<p>Although this set is quite difficult to take down, it can't wall everything. Fighting-types equipped with Guts, such as Heracross, can actually have their Attack boosted by Will-O-Wisp and easily OHKO Arceus with a powered-up Close Combat. Fighting Arceus doesn't care about Will-O-Wisp or Reflect, and can set up on Normal Arceus with Calm Mind before striking it down with a mighty STAB Judgment. Fire-types such as Ho-Oh, Reshiram, and Heatran don't care about most of this set's attacks, and can overpower Arceus with their sun-fueled incendiary strikes. Arceus also struggles to fight off extremely strong special attackers such as Kyogre. Giratina packs an immunity to Arceus's lone weakness to Fighting-type attacks and has the bulk to handle hits from most Fighting-type Pokemon, as well as Ho-Oh. Palkia can easily switch in on Kyogre courtesy of its quadruple resistance to Water-type attacks, and fry the bloated fish with Thunder. Palkia can also come in on Reshiram's Blue Flare fairly well and rip it in half with Spacial Rend. Kyogre has no fear of Heatran and can come in on it all day, and its high Special Defense lets it function as a shaky answer to Reshiram. Finally, Forretress is an excellent partner thanks to Rapid Spin and immunity to Toxic. Arceus hates being worn down by entry hazards and absolutely loathes being poisoned, so pairing Forretress with this Arceus would be a wise choice.</p>
<p>If Arceus is running Will-O-Wisp, any user of Calm Mind, such as Kyogre, Latios, Latias, Mewtwo, or Giratina, is an excellent partner. With the opponent's powerful physical attackers incapable of breaking them, these users of Calm Mind can easily set up without fear as the Special Defense boosts cushion the damage dealt from special attacks, making them extremely difficult to halt.</p>
- Primary EV Spread will be changed to 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 Spe to outspeed max Speed neutral base 90s
- ExtremeSpeed will be AC mentioned
- Judgment + Ice Beam with Bold nature also goes in as an AC mention
- Light Screen will be AC mentioned
NEW SET TO BE ADDED
name: Bandceus (Choice Band)
move 1: ExtremeSpeed
move 2: Earthquake / Shadow Claw
move 3: Swords Dance / Shadow Claw
move 4: Trick
item: Choice Band
evs: 240 HP / 252 Atk / 16 Spe
- Only Arceus that can use Choice Band
- Choice Band ExtremeSpeed is great at revenge killing stuff like Rayquaza, Darkrai, Shaymin-S and Mewtwo. - trickroom note
- Gives much more revenge killing power. 2HKOs an incredible amount of stuff without set up.
- Doesn't get too many notable OHKOs though.
- Earthquake deals with Rock- and Steel-type Pokemon that could take ExtremeSpeed
- Shadow Claw deals with Ghost-type Pokemon who could also switch into ExtremeSpeed like Giratina-O, Giratina, etc. Also Lugia.
- Swords Dance allows Him to possibly sweep after Choice Band is tricked away
- Absolutely, definitely, must have Trick!
- Lots of Arceus switch-ins like Giratina, Lugia, and Skarmory REALLY hate getting tricked a Choice Band - Theorymon note
- Makes a decent lure because of this. Expect Extreme Killer, get Choice Band!
- Those immune to Trick will lock you in, so be careful... (Notable ones include Arceus formes and Giratina-O)
- If you mispredict with Trick, that's not very good. It ruins the surprise.
- Given EVs and nature give as much power while enough speed to outspeed any neutral base 90 Speed Pokemon. Rest in HP for bulk. (It's the same EV spread as the Extreme Killer update)
- Possible other spreads to be detailed here. Specifically, max Attack, Speed for a certain Speed tier, and then rest in HP.
- Overheat is an option to take down Skarmory without Trick. Rather specific, prefers sun, and hates rain.
- Stone Edge could be used to OHKO Ho-Oh and hurt Lugia a lot. However, really specific....
- Shadow Force is not recommended. It's too predictable and the power is insufficient (especially since this is Choice Band).
- Dragon Claw can be used instead of Shadow Claw. Hits Giratina-O / Giratina far harder, but fails against Arceus-Ghost and Bronzong.
- Return can be used instead of ExtremeSpeed for better PP and damage. For example, He can now 2HKO Great Wall Lugia after SR (98.44% is pretty good). However, He now loses out on priority and a possible sweep may be hindered.
- One could use Shadow Claw and Earthquake together for coverage at the loss of possible set up/sweep.
- If you run only Shadow Claw, won't get past Steel-type Pokemon
- If you run only Earthquake, won't get past Giratina-O
- Calculations can go here if necessary if length permits. Hopefully not to ensure consistency. Here are some example stuff:
- Regarding OHKOs
- Only Deoxys-A is guaranteed without SR and Focus Sash.
- Possibly Blaziken, Tornadus, Thundurus, Thundurus-T, Deoxys-S (Suicide lead), etc. without SR and Focus Sash
- With SR, aforementioned are guaranteed along with Shaymin-S, Ho-Oh, and Tornadus-T (No/little HP/Def investment).
- With SR, possibly Darkrai, Venusaur (No/little HP investment), Tentacruel (Very small), Moxie Salamence, Latios, etc.
- Notably, with SR and Spikes - Darkrai
- Team members who appreciate Lugia, Giratina, and Skarmory being crippled will love Choice Band Arceus. Helps their sweep! Some examples are:
- Blaziken, Rayquaza, Groudon, Garchomp, Salamence, Mewtwo, ... WAY TOO MANY! Of course, there are many other factors...
- Team members that work well with Arceus are as follows:
- Wobbuffet - For dealing with Choice Scarfers/Choiced Fighting-type attacks
- Latias - Deals with Arceus-Fighting, loads of other stuff.
- Giratina/Giratina-O - Switches into Fighting-type attacks, deals with Terrakion, Scizor, Landorus-T, etc.
- To be honest though, use this set as a lure to get rid of Lugia, Giratina, etc. for others!
- NOTE: Checks and Counters are listed in Checks and Counters Section just to place them in one location for notes...
<p>Arceus's excellent bulk and Speed stat lend it to abusing Calm Mind well. Although its coverage is much worse than the other Arceus formes, Normal Arceus is capable of holding Leftovers, which bolsters its survivability quite a bit. Normal Arceus can also take advantage of Choice Band to give it a sizable Attack boost, making it a good revenge killer with ExtremeSpeed. However, Arceus doesn't get any notable KOs by using Choice Band, and Swords Dance makes it much more of an offensive threat, so the Extreme Killer set is usually better. Light Screen has some use on the Wallceus set to boost Arceus's Special Defense. Thunder can be used on the Extreme Killer set to 2HKO Skarmory in the rain. The potential paralysis can hamper Lugia as well. Arceus can attempt to run a mixed set with Work Up, but the other Arceus formes generally do that more effectively as they have STAB moves with better coverage. Finally, Safeguard can be used on the Extreme Killer set to stop physical walls from using Will-O-Wisp on Normal Arceus, a common way to stop it, but it limits type coverage.</p>
- Mention of Specs set
- Mention of "other" sets (Whirlpool + Perish Song, Calm Mind, etc.). In other words, sets that "spark" imagination
- Choice Band set mention to be removed
- Leftovers for Extreme Killer moved to Extreme Killer AC
- Light Screen for Wallceus moved to Wallceus AC
- Thunder for Extreme Killer moved to Extreme Killer AC
- Safeguard for Extreme Killer moved to Extreme Killer AC
[Checks and Counters]
<p>The Extreme Killer set is best handled by another bulky Arceus with Will-O-Wisp. A burned Arceus poses no threat, and the defensive Arceus can simply Roar away the boosts the Extreme Killer has gotten. Fighting Arceus is particularly good at this as it can also smack Normal Arceus with a powerful, super effective STAB Judgment. Lugia can also set up Reflect and stall out Arceus's ExtremeSpeed with help from Pressure. Toxic and Whirlwind will stop Arceus from trying to set up further. If Arceus has Shadow Force, Lugia can simply set up Reflect before it gets hit to lessen the damage taken. Giratina can survive anything except a boosted Shadow Force from Normal Arceus, and cripple it with Will-O-Wisp. If it lacks Overheat, Skarmory can handle anything Arceus throws at it and set up Spikes in its face before blowing it away with Whirlwind. Defensive Groudon can also handle a hit or two and repel Normal Arceus's assault with Dragon Tail. Choice Scarf Terrakion and Dialga can also survive a boosted ExtremeSpeed and do massive damage to Arceus with Close Combat or Draco Meteor.</p>
NOTES - Poppy and subsequent QC made the initial list
"General" Counters (Which are viable in Ubers)
Unaware Quagsire NOTE: Will only get a tiny honorable mention if length permits since nobody uses it. VERY SPECIFIC.
- Skarmory - Even the most Physically Defensive variant loses to Adamant / Jolly Life Orb Brick Break Extreme Killer when He is the last Pokemon no matter what even if it has Toxic (Extreme Killer sets up to +6 and then attacks). Extreme Killer may go down with Skarmory, but it's quite rare. If Extreme Killer does survive, He is severely crippled due to Toxic (Left at ~17% assuming Arceus was at full health initially), but gets one more +6 attack after Skarmory's demise. Skamory also loses outright to sun-boosted Overheat / Fire Blast. Defeats (AKA switches into and wins against) Standard Extreme Killer (Silk Scarf) if He's last Pokemon (even if all entry hazards are down). A 252 HP / 184 Def / 72 SpD spread is preferred (Or you actually lose against non-Life Orb Brick Break)
- Wallceus - Has a chance of losing to (faster) Adamant Life Orb Brick Break despite Will-O-Wisp if He is the last Pokemon. Has a chance of losing to (faster) Jolly Life Orb Brick Break + Stealth Rock despite Will-O-Wisp if He is the last Pokemon. Loses to Lum Berry Brick Break Extreme Killer if He is the last Pokemon. Reliance on Will-O-Wisp can be inconvenient, while Reflect can be canceled by Brick Break. Defeats Standard Extreme Killer if He's last Pokemon (even if there's SR and 3 layers of Spikes) - An attacking move is preferred. Also defeats if there is 1 layer of Toxic Spikes. However, loses to Standard Extreme Killer if He's last Pokemon if there's anything greater than 2 layers of Toxic Spikes - will still cripple with Will-O-Wisp. Wallceus can also lose to Standard Extreme Killer if He's last Pokemon and there's 1 layer of Toxic Spikes and SR (Will lose to anything greater than this) - will still cripple with Will-O-Wisp.
- Giratina - Can lose outright to Adamant Life Orb Shadow Force. Loses to Lum Berry Shadow Claw Extreme Killer if He is the last Pokemon as Will-O-Wisp is insufficient. Has a chance of losing to Adamant Life Orb Dragon Claw after Stealth Rock despite Will-O-Wisp if He is the last Pokemon. Also loses to Recover variants if He is the last Pokemon. Reliance on Will-O-Wisp and Rest can be inconvenient. Can Lose/Tie/Defeat Life Orb Extreme Killer variants if He's last Pokemon (even if there's SR and 3 layers of Spikes) - depends on whether Sleep Talk chooses Dragon Tail / Outrage consistently. Ties/Defeats Standard Extreme Killer if He's last Pokemon (even if there's SR and 3 layers of Spikes) - depends on whether Sleep Talk chooses Dragon Tail / Outrage consistently. Also Ties/Defeats if there is 1 or 2 layers of Toxic Spikes. However, loses to Standard Extreme Killer if He's last Pokemon if there's anything equal/greater than 1 layer of Toxic Spikes, a layer of Spikes, and SR (Though Giratina can possibly tie/defeat Standard Extreme Killer even if there are 2 layers of Toxic Spikes, a layer of Spikes, and SR) - will still cripple with Will-O-Wisp. Great Wall Giratina is preferred.
Checks in Order of Overall Effectiveness
- Lugia - Loses to Adamant Life Orb Shadow Claw + Stealth Rock if He is the last Pokemon (Reflect is not sufficient) - Can still set up Reflect / Toxic. Can lose to Jolly Life Orb Shadow Claw + Stealth Rock if He is the last Pokemon - Can still set up Reflect / Toxic. Loses to Lum Berry Shadow Claw Extreme Killer + Stealth Rock if He is the last Pokemon - cripples with Toxic though, may possibly have Reflect up. Lugia also loses to Shadow Force + Power Herb + Stealth Rock. Defeats Standard Extreme Killer if He's last Pokemon (even if all entry hazards are down). Multiscale Great Wall Lugia (With Reflect + Toxic) is preferred.
- Overheat is mentioned as being useful against Skarmory, but not (as useful) against Forretress and Ferrothorn
- SUPERIMP NOTE: General mention of Intimidate's utility against Extreme Killer
- SUPERIMP NOTE: General mention of Choice Scarf users resistant/immune to ExtremeSpeed with Destiny Bond/Trick
Here are the (more) "Controversial" Checks (Currently deciding whether or not to mention)
- NEW: Sableye
- NEW: Hippowdon
- Arceus-Rock and Arceus-Steel
- Arceus-Fighting - SUPERIMP NOTE: Arceus-Fighting mentioned as a whole instead. Promoted from Poppy's 8. (In the context of this list, 9.)
- NEW: Bronzong (Physically Defensive / Trickroom / Choice Band) -
SUPERIMP NOTE: Position is still being determined. Either 6 or 7.
- Scarf Dialga, Scarf Heatran
- Swift Swim Kabutops and Omastar
- Physically Defensive Giratina-O (Will-O-Wisp helps)
- Toxic + Pain Split Physically Defensive Forretress - SUPERIMP NOTE: Demoted from Poppy's 6. Did some testing and it's an overall poor choice. It only works with significant Defense/HP investment (No Spikes + Stealth Rock either). Even with max Physical Defense and HP, you still have a possibility of being 2HKOed from Adamant Life Orb +2 Earthquake without any hazards. Lum Berry variants are obviously problematic. In other words, Forretress doesn't really check Earthquake Life Orb / Lum Berry variants very well.
P.S. This variant is also a bit rare. Only 15% of all Forretress actually ran this EV spread last month (NOTE: JULY). And how many of them actually run Toxic + Pain Split? Even fewer (Pain Split itself was only on 5.6% of all Forretress). What more, Extreme Killer has to be at a respectable health for Pain Split to work properly! Therefore, demoted.
- Physically Defensive Ferrothorn
Here are the "Controversial" Checks currently accepted which will be mentioned
Choice Band Landorus-T REJECTED- SUPERIMP NOTE: It's an EXTREMELY FLIMSY and unreliable check. If Landorus-T has any hint of damage, it's useless (EX: SR, prior damage, etc.). In fact, a +1 ExtremeSpeed from Adamant Life Orb has a 43.75% chance to OHKO Landorus-T without SR (Assuming EVs are the same as what are in the Landorus-T C&C skeleton posted around July). Compare this to Landorus-T's Adamant Choice Band Superpower which has a 37.5% chance to OHKO Arceus with the main spread without SR. Unfortunately, Landorus-T's Superpower is useless if you can't use it before being OHKOed.
Is this Pokemon honestly worth a mention for a check? During testing, it did not perform its duty very effectively. Therefore, I'm leaning towards no specific mention for Landorus-T.
The only real benefit of Landorus-T is Intimidate, which proves most useful like shrang said. Then again, I could use other Pokemon for that purpose. Therefore, I will be mentioning how Intimidate helps to reduce the threat that is Extreme Killer.
Gengar - Choice Scarf and SubDisable REJECTED - SUPERIMP NOTE: It's a very flimsy check. Gengar is not exactly the most ideal Pokemon to use in Ubers. Is it a must for a check?
For the "apparently" existent Choice Scarf set, Gengar has to rely on Focus Blast to actually damage Extreme Killer. Against the main spread of Extreme Killer, this does around 51.24 - 60.31%. Destiny Bond takes them both down, but assumes Extreme Killer attacks. If it doesn't, getting locked into Destiny Bond isn't fun. (Just a note, Destiny Bond is very uncommon on Gengar. Adding to this fact, how common is Gengar again?). A Recover variant could "scout" whether Gengar uses Focus Blast/Destiny Bond and react accordingly.
For SubDisable, check what Poppy mentioned in Post #9. SubDisable is so unreliable because of the mindgames.
Right now, I'm leaning towards no mention of Gengar as its reliability is questionable. Why are we mentioning Gengar over stuff like Sableye which
aarguablyy is far more effective/reliable? Gengar can't take a single hit at all (AKA from Ghost-type attacks or possibly Fire-type). Also, Gengar is quite obscure. If someone has managed to successfully build a Uber team that works well AND uses Gengar as a successful check to Extreme Killer, please show me. Thanks.
Physically Defensive Ho-Oh REJECTED - SUPERIMP NOTE: If there's any SR, it's useless. Even Jolly without any item has a 50% chance to OHKO after SR! Without SR, it's still quite shaky. If Sacred Fire doesn't burn (Less than 50% because of Sacred Fire possibly missing), Ho-Oh loses. Even if it does burn, Ho-Oh can still lose if Extreme Killer gets good damage rolls (Relevant to Adamant Life Orb/Silk Scarf). Whirlwind works well in phazing, but is limited if Extreme Killer gets good damage rolls with ExtremeSpeed (If Ho-Oh phazes in something threatening (EX: Terrakion), Ho-Oh won't have the opportunity to Recover / Roost). Regenerator only gets you so far.
CB Metagross REJECTED - SUPERIMP NOTE: Completely loses to Earthquake variants. Hammer Arm can only take down somewhat weakened ones. Don't know whether to mention or not.
CB Scizor REJECTED - SUPERIMP NOTE: Choice Band Scizor is a really flimsy check to Extreme Killer given that just like Choice Band Landorus-T, it is easy to wear down (No reliable recovery sucks). Unless it is perfectly conserved, it is highly unlikely that it will be able to tank a boosted coverage move. In fact, a +2 Life Orb Earthquake has a 31.25% chance to OHKO without any hazards. During testing, Scizor wasn’t very reliable; prior damage often arose due to entry hazards as well as answering miscellaneous threats (i.e. Lati@s).
Right now, I’m leaning towards no specific mention for Choice Band Scizor given its shakiness and that I’m trying to keep the C&C section readable.
- Bronzong SUPERIMP NOTE: Specially Defensive isn't the best. However, Physically Defensive works quite nicely! Only loses completely to Brick Break variants. Can tie/lose to Shadow Force variants depending on the item Extreme Killer has chosen (Lum Berry variants win). Wins against Shadow Claw variants assuming no crits - Left at a reasonably low HP. Lum Berry variants result in a tie though. The Trickroom set can "revenge" Extreme Killer with Gyro Ball (Not really) or Explosion as it survives any attack. Needs much prior damage though. If He has Recover, becomes much harder. CB variants are understandably much better.
REJECTED SUPERIMP NOTE: It's better than Gengar! Check this link. Still determining whether to mention since it's really obscure.It passed QC. Although it can possibly Will-O-Wisp, it has to play a Taunt / Foul Play VS. Recover mindgame (Around as shaky as SubDisable; this is applicable to Life Orb variants) with the assumption that Sableye is Specially Defensive. If it is Physically Defensive, this mindgame is significantly reduced. However, Sableye now loses to sun-boosted Overheat outright. Sableye also loses to Earthquake Lum Berry variants, though it can still possibly burn (56.25%). Just remember, as a general rule, Sableye loses horribly if Will-O-Wisp misses.
<p>The Wallceus set is best handled by a Fighting-type with Guts such as Heracross, as they get an Attack raise from Will-O-Wisp thanks to their abilities, and will quickly pulverize Arceus with a mighty STAB Fighting-type attack. Heatran, Ho-Oh, and Reshiram also fear nothing from Will-O-Wisp, and easily roast Arceus to a crisp with their powerful STAB Fire-type attacks. Strong special attackers such as Kyogre and Mewtwo are pesky in general as Arceus is generally built to take physical assaults.</p>
NOTES - Poppy made the initial list Original:
New (For Organization Purposes):
- Rewording Ho-Oh (I know Ho-Oh walls Arceus but good luck killing Arceus not in sun.)
- Boosting special attackers if Arceus is not using Roar.
- General mention of how switching into Roar can possibly lose momentum
- Boosting special attackers (if Arceus is not using Roar)
- Strong special attackers such as Kyogre
- Support Pokemon with Toxic - Especially if they have Refresh, Rest/Sleep Talk, etc. (if Arceus is not using Refresh)
NOTES - for Choice BandCounters:
- Arceus-Ghost - Immune to Trick and ExtremeSpeed. Can cripple with Will-O-Wisp. Survives Shadow Claw with a chance of not being 2HKOed assuming HP investment (IF CB Arceus even has it... Else...). Either way, will outspeed as Choice Band runs Adamant (Jolly is too weak).
- Arceus-Fighting - Immune to Trick. ExtremeSpeed is too weak - Still hurts though. Can possibly cripple with Will-O-Wisp (Despite it being very rare...). Doesn't care about whatever coverage move CB Arceus runs. Also has STAB Fighting-type attacks if He wants to attack.
- In general, any bulky Arceus (With a plate) that has resistances/are neutral to CB Arceus' attacks work well. An example might include Arceus-Ground.
- Physically Defensive Giratina-O - Immune to Trick, ExtremeSpeed, and Earthquake. Can cripple with Will-O-Wisp. Easily survives Shadow Claw (IF CB Arceus even has it... Else...). NOTE: Dragon Claw CAN possibly 2HKO with SR
- Terrakion can switch into any move besides Earthquake. Some variants may dislike Choice Band, but at least it doesn't cripple. Can't recover health very well though...
- Choice Band Landorus-T (He works much better here than against Extreme Killer) can switch into any move (ExtremeSpeed still hurts though; it can possibly 2HKO after SR). Trick doesn't matter for obvious reasons. Superpower only revenges somewhat weakened ones. Unable to heal.
- Choice Band Scizor (He works much better here than against Extreme Killer) can switch into any move besides Earthquake. Trick doesn't matter for obvious reasons. Superpower only revenges somewhat weakened ones. Unable to heal.
- Groudon can easily switch into any attack. Trick can bother it, but it's not as crippled as the "main" answers to Extreme Killer. Can't recover health very well though...
- Hippowdon can easily switch into any attack. Sandstorm helps wear down Choice Band Arceus. Trick can bother Hippowdon, but it's not as crippled as the "main" answers to Extreme Killer. It CAN heal though.
- Skarmory, Lugia, Wallceus, Giratina, and Sableye can easily switch into any attack BESIDES Trick. If they switch into Trick, not pleasant. They could still Will-O-Wisp, Reflect, Dragon Tail, etc., but they are essentially crippled.
- Arceus-Rock and Arceus-Steel are immune to Trick and resist ExtremeSpeed (Shadow Claw too for Arceus-Steel). They could then Will-O-Wisp or do whatever. However, Earthquake destroys both of them. Arceus could also run max speed Jolly with Choice Band too - still does enough damage.
- Pretty much whatever is left are the other checks of Extreme Killer. Perhaps this should be mentioned instead?
<p>While Arceus does not receive a Dream World ability, there is one significant Pokemon that Normal Arceus is both helped and hurt by: Shadow Tag Chandelure. With Shadow Tag and powerful STAB Fire- and Ghost-type attacks, it can spell the doom of many of the Extreme Killer's counters, such as Lugia, Giratina, and Skarmory. Chandelure is also immune to Normal Arceus's only weakness—Fighting-type moves. However, Normal Arceus itself is also afraid of opposing Chandelure, as Shadow Tag and a quick sun-fueled Overheat can spell its doom. In the Dream World environment, you will have to play with Normal Arceus more carefully to avoid Chandelure frying it alive.</p>
QC checks: shrang, barry4ever, Poppy [3/3]
GP checks: n/a [0/2]
<p>After the pre-battle tintinnabulation is complete, please stare in pure, unadulterated horror and ominous presentiment at what is unequivocally the best Pokemon in the entire game. His stats unrivaled, His versatility is unmatched. His potential remains unlimited. He has transcended beyond mere typing, for Multitype allows Him to assume any of the seventeen types that He so desires. Even then, His purest forme remains seated upon His throne. Whether wiping His creations from the fabric of existence as Extreme Killer, or standing as their resolute guardian by virtue of Wallceus, the God of Pokemon knows no bounds. Dare not incur Arceus's divine wrath, or else the consequences shall be severe and merciless, and life shall become but an evanescent wisp.</p>
name: Extreme Killer (Swords Dance)
move 1: Swords Dance
move 2: ExtremeSpeed
move 3: Shadow Claw / Shadow Force
move 4: Earthquake / Brick Break / Recover
item: Silk Scarf / Life Orb / Lum Berry
evs: 240 HP / 252 Atk / 16 Spe
<p>When Extreme Killer appears on the battlefield, you know His final judgment has arrived. Little can avert His decision, for very good bulk and the priority of His ExtremeSpeed makes Him difficult to revenge. Combine it with a base 120 Attack stat, the ease of setting up a Swords Dance, and STAB on said ExtremeSpeed, and you get one of the most legendary late-game sweepers of all time, capable of decimating both offensive and defensive teams alike.</p>
<p>Swords Dance will enhance the power of His STAB ExtremeSpeed to apocalyptic levels, wiping away all but the most resilient. With just a Silk Scarf and Swords Dance boost, ExtremeSpeed is more than capable enough to OHKO even the bulkiest of Uber titans, such as Kyogre, Kyurem-W, Mewtwo, Latias, Palkia, and Reshiram.</p>
<p>Although the power of ExtremeSpeed is divine, coverage moves are necessary to account for its deficiencies. A Ghost-type attack is crucial against the Ghost-type Pokemon that can come in on ExtremeSpeed with impunity. Shadow Claw with its high reliability is the preferred option against these threats. For those who crave more power, Shadow Force is a better option. Its power after a Swords Dance is so obscene that even physically defensive Giratina risks being OHKOed without any hazards provided Arceus is Adamant and holding Life Orb. Giratina-O and Ghost Arceus are OHKOed without a glance, while any Wobbuffet concerns are alleviated. Shadow Force also evades crippling support moves such as Will-O-Wisp during its charge turn, though the charge turn in itself can prove most inconvenient against Lugia and Normal-type Pokemon. For His last slot, Earthquake eradicates the Rock- and Steel-type Pokemon that could otherwise take an ExtremeSpeed, such as Dialga or Heatran. Brick Break though less powerful breaks through troublesome screens and is significantly more effective against Bronzong, Ferrothorn, Skarmory, and Himself as Wallceus. Recover allows Him to act as a pivot at the detriment of coverage.</p>
<p>With STAB ExtremeSpeed as His judgment, you might wonder why the God of Pokemon even bothers with Speed. After all, the given EVs and nature grant Him an unparalleled combination of maximum power, bulk, and just enough Speed to outpace neutral base 90 Speed Pokemon. But alas, Arceus proves far more adaptable, capable of running several EV spreads just as effective as the last.</p>
<p>Using the given EVs as a starting point, invest as many Speed EVs as desired to outspeed certain key threats. If you would like to outspeed neutral base 95 Speed Pokemon like Adamant Rayquaza, 56 Spe EVs is sufficient.124 Spe EVs is enough to outpace positive base 90s like Timid Dialga, while 168 Spe EVs is adequate to outspeed any positive base 95s like Jolly Rayquaza. For other key threats, a Jolly nature becomes necessary. 160 Spe EVs is sufficient to outspeed positive base 108 Speed Pokemon like Terrakion. 176 Spe EVs is necessary to outpace positive base 110s like Froslass. Finally, 252 Spe EVs will guarantee a Speed tie against opposing maximum Speed Arceus. Once this desired Speed has been reached, maximize Attack and then place any remaining EVs into HP to increase His overall bulk.</p>
<p>In His original state, Arceus can access almost any item that is to be offered; His choice is entirely dependent on His intended role. For those seeking a balanced approach, Silk Scarf is the preferred option. It provides a 20% boost to ExtremeSpeed without compromising bulk. For the more offensively inclined, Life Orb is a better option. Although it costs dearly in recoil, it provides a great deal more power to not only ExtremeSpeed, but to all of His coverage moves. With just a Life Orb and Swords Dance boost, ExtremeSpeed is capable of OHKOing threats such as Kyurem-B, Zekrom, and tank Ho-Oh without any hazards. It is also the best item to use against His top defensive checks, in particular Lugia. If the Speed of Jolly is favored, Life Orb is recommended to compensate for Jolly’s reduced power in comparison with Adamant.</p>
<p>If you prefer a more tactical approach, Lum Berry is useful for its one-time status protection. However, the power loss is substantial; without the boost from Silk Scarf or Life Orb, Arceus is unable to OHKO many Pokemon such as Palkia and Mewtwo without sufficient entry hazard support. If you wish to maximize Arceus's staying power, Leftovers takes full advantage of His very good bulk. It works particularly well with a bulkier spread in combination with Recover. When making such a spread, invest as many Speed EVs as desired, maximize HP, and then place any remaining EVs into Attack. Power Herb can be used alongside Shadow Force and Stealth Rock to always get past Lugia and specially defensive Giratina, but is otherwise very specific and does not boost damage.</p>
<p>Although the given coverage moves are generally the most reliable, it is to be noted that these slots are extremely flexible. A Life Orb-boosted Overheat incinerates Skarmory, Sableye, and Bronzong under sun, but is next to useless under rain. If you forgo Life Orb, Fire Blast is a better option while also having increased utility against Ferrothorn and Forretress. Dragon Claw can be used over Shadow Claw for its increased power against Giratina and Giratina-O, but loses utility against Lugia and Ghost Arceus. Grass Knot 2HKOes Groudon and Hippowdon on the switch, but restricts coverage substantially. Similarly, Safeguard can prevent status for multiple turns, while Substitute eases prediction, protects against status, and punishes offensive revenge killers.</p>
<p>Even though Arceus is mighty indeed as Extreme Killer, it is unwise to use Him alone. Two approaches exist to counteract His destructive temperament: defensive titans and offensive revenge killers. Defensive titans consist of very bulky Toxic stallers, phazers, or Will-O-Wisp abusers. Offensive revenge killers consist of Pokemon that can survive at least one of His faster boosted attacks comfortably yet deal considerable damage back. Nevertheless, no approach is guaranteed. In this sense, Arceus is highly specialized; He might be able to overpower certain checks at a time, but He is unable to overpower everything at a time. The creations that best support Him are the ones which account for the shortcomings in His specialization.</p>
<p>Against the former, the best support is to weaken any defensive Pokemon capable of dealing with His specialization. Luring these Pokemon out and sufficiently damaging them is crucial for His success. Pokemon such as Blaziken, Groudon, Ho-Oh, and Rayquaza can make excellent lures, since Arceus's defensive answers are often used in response to these threats. Powerful wallbreakers such as Kyogre, Kyurem-W, Latios, Mewtwo, and Reshiram, though not exactly the best lures, can leave serious gaps in the opponent’s team, possibly exposing these Pokemon as well as easing Arceus’s sweep. Entry hazard shuffling is also quite beneficial in both the damage and exposure element. Finally, specific answers that can come in on troublesome defensive Pokemon happen to be excellent teammates. Magnezone can easily trap and eliminate Skarmory. Stallbreaker Heatran is an excellent answer against Wallceus. Giratina and Lugia greatly dislike Darkrai, Zekrom, Reshiram, and Kyurem-W.</p>
<p>Against the latter, the best support is to either weaken these revenge killers to the point where a faster boosted attack can OHKO, cripple their Speed, or reduce their offense to a more manageable level. Entry hazards are great for their damaging properties; Pokemon such as Deoxys-S, Ferrothorn, and Groudon make excellent entry hazard users. Lures that are similarly revenged killed to Arceus, like Swords Dance Rayquaza or double status Darkrai, can either deal considerable damage or cripple with status. Proper weather control is crucial as several revenge killers are dependent on it for speed, such as Kabutops and Omastar, as well as their offense, such as Choice Scarf Heatran. Dual Screens from Pokemon like Deoxys-S and Latios are helpful for softening enemy assaults. Carrying specific answers to His revenge killers is also a wise choice should you be unable to eliminate their threat. For instance, Wobbuffet can easily dispatch Choice Scarf users while also buying Him a turn to use Swords Dance if necessary. Of course, keeping Arceus healthy is an option as all revenge killers are unable to OHKO Him should He be at relatively high health.</p>
<p>As an honorable mention, Unaware Quagsire is without doubt the best Extreme Killer counter in the game. Nothing but it is capable of trolling the God of Pokemon Himself by switching into a +6 ExtremeSpeed and proceeding to Toxic stall. Only through Grass Knot or Toxic Spikes can Arceus possibly prevail.</p>
name: Wallceus (Physical Wall)
move 1: Will-O-Wisp / Reflect
move 2: Recover
move 3: Return
move 4: Roar / Perish Song
evs: 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 Spe
<p>Standing up to the might of fearsome Uber titans, Wallceus can function as a nearly unbreakable wall. His excellent bulk is already inclined to taking hits well; His Defense is so formidable that He is one of the best answers to the legendary Extreme Killer. Although His Normal typing isn’t exactly the holy grail for defensive typing, He stands out from His other formes with a lone weakness and the ability to hold Leftovers.</p>
<p>To keep the physical attackers at bay, Will-O-Wisp is the preferred option. A crippling burn disables nearly every physical sweeper in Ubers—Groudon, Rayquaza, physical Arceus, Garchomp, and Zekrom, to name a few—for the rest of the match. Will-O-Wisp also saps the afflicted opponent’s HP, allowing Arceus to either outstall, phaze, or overpower the burned opponent. However, Will-O-Wisp's accuracy is shaky and does nothing to Fire-type Pokemon like Ho-Oh. If these issues are particularly bothersome to you, Reflect is a better option. Although it lasts only five turns and can be canceled by Brick Break, Reflect does not miss, benefits the whole team, and can affect physical attackers behind a Substitute. Recover provides reliable recovery and lengthens His staying power, while Return provides a solid STAB attack that increases offensive pressure. It also enables Him to defeat Extreme Killer without the need to phaze.</p>
<p>For His last slot, both options are useful for their utility against setup sweepers. Roar is the preferred option as it immediately phazes any threat that tries to set up, most notably physical attackers that have been neutralized by Will-O-Wisp or Reflect. It also weakens most switch-ins provided there is sufficient entry hazard support. For those willing to take a longer approach, Perish Song is a better option. Although it takes three turns to have an effect, Perish Song will guarantee an eventual switch and will place an inevitable end to last-Pokemon setup sweepers like Calm Mind Arceus.</p>
They can because they think they can.
Last edited by Superimp; May 6th, 2013 at 12:31:58 PM.