[Jumpman16**]

Originally Posted by Fat ntrnsc mtvtn

Alright, it's been about a week since I decided to look into full-on crippling, and it's been enlightening, which was the point since I'm not going for records here. Using Whimsicott/Uxie/Dragonite, I've been able to obtain knowledge to answer some of the questions I asked about this kind of strategy, and assess the power of the team currently peaking the list. From what I've seen, I suppose that I strongly overestimated it, but why wouldn't I? If a set strategy can pull 630 wins in a row it has to be a very solid one, right? Using the team, I've found a lot of weaknesses that can effectively spoil the entire outfit, especially with the aid of a critical hit or other secondary effects. As such, I wouldn't be as comfortable using this team in the 300+s as I am with my 579 Scizor/Milotic/Dragonite team. The information below is gathered from a week of playing less than an hour a day, so if you see something false I'd really like it if you could inform me, because I feel like I must be 'misunderstanding' the team somehow when looking at how far Jumpman16 has taken it (or at least something very similar to it).

I guess the most straightforward aspect to assess is the power of a full health Dragonite at +6 Atk, +6 Spe, hiding behind a Substitute, since that scenario is what a flawless crippling session leads to. Power is here referring to Dragonite's ability to reliably knock out the 2 non-crippled remaining pkmn. I've found that it's much stronger than my previous Inner Focus version, and also more reliable than a slow sweeper such as Curse Ferrothorn, but is far from invincible. Dragonite loses its Substitute to anything that gets to move and is able to do 48 damage through Multiscale. Anything with priority gets to move, and so does any pkmn that isn't knocked out by +6 Atk Dragon Claw, whether due to Sturdy, Focus Sash, or simply HP/Def and typing. Evasion granted by anything from BrightPowder to Snow Cloak can also give the opportunity to move. Considering the many Subway pkmn meeting these 'requirements' one way or another, Dragonite is far from guaranteed to keep its Substitute for the next foe, even when taking into account the possibility of stalling PP. While having no Substitute endangers Dragonite, it can also be severely crippled when still behind one, thanks to Abilities like Flame Body, Static, and Effect Spore. While most of these threats need excessive luck (barring perhaps Gigalith 1 and 2) to take down Dragonite alone, they have a fair chance of doing so with the help from a third pkmn. So, even if one manages to get Dragonite perfectly set up in every single battle, there are still so many things that can go wrong, and as such I'm very surprised that Jumpman16 has reached 630 with that strategy, which has nothing to fall back on. I must be missing something.

Yeah, you're missing the part where even if something manages to break +6/+6 Dragonite's sub, the opponent still has to essentially knock out a pokemon capable of taking 99.9% of the attacks in the Subway thanks to Multiscale. First, the AI has to still be in possession of usable pokemon should Draggy be hacked out of a Sub. I kind of don't care if I get QC IBed by Slowbro if Draggy's already killed a Starmie and a Froslass, or if I get Focus Sashed by 2nd-poke Tentacruel if the last poke is a Swampert or a Feraligatr, because I win regardless. Second, I think you're grossly underestimating Multiscale here. Say that Froslass was Froslass4 and it hit with Blizzard after Focus Sashing me. This is what QC IB does to Dragonite:

252 Modest Slowbro Ice Beam
vs. 204/30 Adamant Leftovers Dragonite : 52.1% - 62.5%

I don't care. And if 2nd-poke Tentacruel actually Focus Sashes me:

252 Modest Tentacruel Sludge Bomb
vs. 204/30 Adamant Leftovers Dragonite : 16.1% - 19.3%

This doesn't even break my sub if it hasn't taken any/much damage. Basically, the AI needs some combination of Sash, Quick Claw, a Steel type, and Brightpowder/Lax Incense to affect +6/+6 Dragonite no less than twice. I couldn't even devise some scenario where QC Slowbro or Sash Tentacruel can even join forces against me because one's a set 2 poke and one's a set 3 one—most of the Sashes and QCes are scattered around. TO address your bit about typing and HP/Def EVs, pokes like Gigalith can be annoying, but only if they are exactly the second pokemon to come out. And even then, it has to be Gigalith 1 or 2 to even begin to worry me. And I will tell you—in all my battles with all the teams I've tried in the Subway (over a dozen, as I've noted before) I have no recollection of Gigalith ever using Rock Blast, not once. Not even just my Whimsy battles...I'm talking ever in the Subway, period. Set 1 and 2 pokes are rare by virtue of the trainers who use them, so you shouldn't really be surprised that I haven't run into Rock Blast Gigalith yet, just like you shouldn't be surprised I haven't run into the perfect storm of QC and Focus Sash and Brightpowder.

Even if I were to, I would bet that Gigalith1 would use Curse or even Bulldoze before using Rock Blast, and that Gigalith 2 would use literally any of its other moves (Iron Defense, Sandstorm, and Lock-On) before using Rock Blast. You know just as well as I do that the AI isn't the brightest and there are "threats" that just never end up being realized. And even when it looks like it's supposed to, like if I'm facing a Black Belt who uses Bastiodon and Aggron (Sturdy pokemon that you mentioned are threats)...I don't care. Rock moves just are the least threatening things for Dragonite to face from non QC-pokemon because even if it should find itself without a Sub, it will essentially resist Rock Slide and Stone Edge when it Roosts back to 100%, and do whatever it wants to assure itself the victory. Pokemon that you feel meet the HP/Def and typing requirements like Steelix...it takes 44-52% from +6 DC and will in variably Curse, making it a routine 3-4HKO. Metagross...is an idiot that tries to Trick me through Sub. Registeel...2HKOed and basically can't break my sub. Ferrothorn...Curses and dies. There's so little +6/+6 Draggy has to worry about that you may just have to play with it more yourself if you're still somehow not convinced even though you've used it to get close to 600 wins yourself, a record people questioned a lot more before you explained yourself. So if we're just talking about Dragonite in this part of the post (we are), how is it that you have so many reservations when you used Dragonite to get a streak almost as long as mine? You didn't lean so heavily on your Scizor/Miilotic duo to underestimate just how valuable and self-sufficient it is, did you?[/quote]

The crippling phase is also far from guaranteed to succeed. After using the team, I still don't understand why people would want to put their money on crippling strategies for records when U-turn, Volt Switch, and Prankster Taunt exist, although I didn't encounter the latter in the lead position. Recoilers also threaten this strategy, knocking themselves out almost before Dragonite has started dancing. Explosion is in the same vein, think Forretress 4. Since the team often depends on locking the foe into a move by Tricking a Choice Scarf, that item has to be held and as such has to be Tricked as to not lock one self in. Tricking something into a non-damaging move usually causes switching (what about the un-Tauntable Counter/Mirror Coat, will they switch?), which is deadly, so Whimsicott practically has to Taunt right before using Memento against a foe packing more than just attacking moves. This limits its diversity and ability to make use of Worry Seed. Another problem is Tricking into moves with 5-10 PP, as getting the foe to use Struggle is a nightmare for setting up, much worse than 'natural' recoil. The same goes for pkmn already locked into one move, like Latias 3 or Rampardos 3, which in turn makes it difficult for Uxie since it will stay locked. Klutz would be really useful here.

Well let's not beat around the bush here—sure you understand why people would want to put all their money on such crippling strategies. The #1 record was attained with a crippling strategy, so it has been proven to work. Volt Switch and U-turn are documented nuisances, and can be anticipated and played around the rare times they present themselves.

The rest of your reservations indicate that you have not yet played enough with your Whimsicott/Uxie/Dragonite team to know what I do. Forretress is setup bait that I Charm once then switch in Dragonite, whose Substitute cannot be broken by Explosion whenever Forry's done accomplishing nothing. The AI doesn't switch out of locked Counter/Mirror Coat, even if a fair number of pokemon had the moves. 5pp moves are even less of an issue than in DP since Draggy is a hell of a lot more comfortable with "just 3-6 turns of setup" than CM Latios or Drapion ever were. And what's this bit about having to Memento right after using Taunt and that limiting diversity and the ability to use Worry Seed? Since when is the goal to use as many of Whimsicott's moves as possible? As far as I'm concerned, if Whimsicott is using Taunt then Memento, the battle is going precisely the way I want it to.

Then there are Ground-types, which can't be slowed down unless one runs Cotton Spore on Whimsicott, which seems reasonable as Charm feels more like a luxury than a necessity when used (if someone disagrees or has examples against this, I'd like to know). That's another thing I don't really get; while Jumpman16's team has 2 users of Charm, its only way of lowering SAtk is Whimsicott's single-use Memento - this also makes Mesprit harder to get out of the way when it's done its job. Why Mesprit over Uxie, and why the physical bias? If the Ground-type is faster than Dragonite (without Tricked Choice Scarf), it can easily cause trouble. Think Excadrill flinching, critically hitting, running out of PP. Something I'm generally curious about is whether this thread's users of crippling strategies decide to keep their cripplers if possible, or let them go down intentionally. Skarmory's Whirlwind wouldn't be pleasant. Whimsicott and Uxie both have Memento, which saves me the trouble of letting them go down (Taunt duration and PP loss) and grants a free switch for Dragonite in addition, but that's different for other strategies posted here - do you keep your cripplers, or is the sweeper 'always' on its own? Also, Tricking and Thunder Waving takes 2 turns, which means that many pkmn (more with critical hit) can knock out Uxie in the process, often before paralyzing, leaving Dragonite with a -2 Atk, -2 SAtk, Choice Scarfed foe - not that crippled, can easily status, flinch, critically hit Dragonite. Many strong Ice-types also threaten the outfit, especially considering freeze, which thwarts the plans of this team just as much as any other (Scald-less) team, except more since it runs a set strategy, and only has one self-sufficient pkmn to fall back on; four times Ice-type weak Dragonite. Staying on Ice-types, what can this team really do to prepare Dragonite for Weavile 4? Even with -2 Atk and Choice Scarf on, it does threaten Dragonite with its Speed and high critical hit ratio Night Slash. Some pkmn are a threat even after a flawless crippling, such as Vanilluxe 2, or any pkmn running out of PP; Struggle is a major pain. In the event that full crippling isn't possible (like with Weavile 4), (repeated) critical hits can prevent Dragonite from setting up any day.

Excadrill is invariably tricked into Poison Jab since that's its strongest move on Whimsicott. In this case, getting Mesprit "out of the way when it's done its job" is done for me when Poison Jab poison Mesprit—an event I encourage by Charming before Flashing to increase the chances I don't have to switch Dragonite into a Poison Jab that may not miss. I've had to take a Poison Jab once or twice and I have been poisoned before, but...I didn't really care. Dragonite still got to +6/+6 with a Sub and swept because it's Dragonite and it kills a good 95% of the Subway without even looking when set up. Other Ground types have to use Rock Slide or something because Whimsicott resists their STAB, and I've already touched on how eager I am to set up on Rock Slide...having to maybe (Flash) take one naked since I can't paralyze Ground types is such a "shrug" that I'll take the incredibly minute risk given how much of the Subway my team dominates.

To answer your question about keeping cripplers...yes, I do hang on to Whimsy if I don't need to Memento. I Taunt and then instaswitch to Draggy on Shuckle4, Tauros4, Granbull4 and a few other pokemon that aren't off the very top of my head who can't do a thing to worry Dragonite when Taunt wears off. Ice types in general aren't locked into Ice Beam as often as you may think, it's usually Blizzard or some Water move or Signal Beam, which may not answer your question about why Mesprit over Uxie but should if you replace Uxie with Latias—as I've stated a few times in these threads, the reason I ever used Mesprit over its statistically superior moveset twin Latias is because Latias draws Ice and Dragon attacks that my set-up pokemon hate (Garchomp in Gen 4, Dragonite in Gen 5). Using Mesprit over Uxie on this team is as simple as Charm, and I've definitely sounded off on how perfect I think Trick/TW/Charm/Flash is as a moveset over half a dozen times (even once openly reserving the right to laugh at those of you who continue use inferior trick-scarf sets...Peterko knows what I'm talking about) so I'm not going to repeat myself.

Weavile4? A piece of cake when you think about it. It doesn't Taunt a pokemon it thinks it can OHKO with Ice Punch, so I can Charm regardless of the Fake Out threat. Whether or not it does is a mere difference between -2 and -4 Atk when Mesprit comes in. With what I know will be my last chance to Charm, I Taunt Weavile so it can't Taunt Mesprit. This doesn't always work out perfectly since Weavile needs three IPs to kill Whimsy, but I'm not dumb enough to Trick something not under the effects of my Taunt, so I Thunderwave straight up if Weavile isn't Taunted when Mesprit comes out. If it doesn't CH Mesprit with Night Slash, I'll have more than enough HP to reswitch (go to Draggy then back to Mesprit) to start Flashing, and I won't be worried about switching Draggy into an Ice Punch either.

If I even have to do this, though, it's because I Charmed Weavile more than once because it didn't 2HKO Whimsy, and therefore Night Slash won't do enough to keep Draggy out of Multiscale HP when it next comes in. Switching Mesprit into a paralyzed Ice Punch may still result in an untimely crit or freeze, but whatever, I'll take my chances. I'm going back in to Flash because I'm not locking it into Taunt, and I don't really care if it does Taunt Mesprit cause I'll get to break its sash and get Draggy in clean. It will opt to Ice Punch a 4x weak pokemon iinstead of Taunt, through -4 Atk, -3 accuracy and paralysis, but for reference: at -2 and with Draggy Roosting, Weavile can't break Draggy's Sub if it manages to hit with IP. At -4 on 100% HP Draggy 100% Sub, it does 21.9-26%, which probably won't break it.

At any rate, I certainly don't care if Weavile gets Tricked into Night Slash (as you've hypothesized) and avoids Paralysis (which it needs a CH in two turns to do), because Dragonite takes nothing from -2 or -4 Night Slash and can prioritize being behind a Sub while it gets up to speed. I hope you're starting to get the picture on how an otherwise formidable "threat" really isn't one at all even if most everything goes against me, and how this by extension applies to many of the other pokemon I have actually faced in my streak and in other ones with other crippling teams.

Other than that, I find the team to be not all that slow - the sweeping making up for the crippling. I don't think the sets of 7 take much longer than with my Scizor/Milotic/Dragonite on average, but then again, that team is kind of slow. Compared to Curse/Substitute Ferrothorn, this team has very fast playing speed, at least. I think it's less rewarding than my standard teams, though, which I talked about in my initial post on why I chose standard. And as I mentioned in my second post, the team is rude, preying on the AIs imperfections while taking the kid with GameShark aspect to a new level, by not only using Multiscale Dragonite, but also two pkmn not found in the Super Subway roster at all. Considering the risks above, I wouldn't want to use a team like this for making records, since I'd feel way worse when losing a long streak with this outfit than a standard one, since these (on the right days) make for fun/enjoyable battles. Worse because 'waste' of time, no fun had. So, now I've tried to use and assess a strategy I didn't devise myself, and that was interesting. I haven't been playing too much Subway since my record streak, as I'm not looking for an increase, and setting records is essentially what the Subway is all about. I'll maybe find something amusing to do, like trying old or new strategies and pkmn (Subway stall lives). The activity of devising strategies, pkmn sets, and succesfully using them (not necessarily talking records) is in itself the most enjoyable aspect of this facility, I think. That's also why it's great I've started reading into this thread a bit; it's nice when you see people using/have used stuff identical (or almost identical) to something you've used, because that means they (or the one they got it from, if any) have been through the same process as you, which is obviously cool in a unity sort of way. Still I'm not sure if I should correct people when they write stuff that is plain wrong, because they may be speaking in abstract terms, or may even be joking/emphasizing for effect. I guess it's best not to, and let them find out for themselves eventually, if they truly believe what they write. It may be due to lack of experience on the poster's part, but reading posts in this thread generally, I sometimes get the feeling that people on here don't play every turn like it's a minimum damage roll for them, and a maximum damage roll critical hit for the opponent, because surely that's what one would do after just a few hundred hours of Subway battling, right? Maybe the Subway would be a better measure of team strength if it used a scoring system of win/loss ratio that can't be abused by resetting. Timing of the (currently) decisive defeat would be of less importance. More strategies would be viable, especially those with that one fatal weakness, or even something general such as moves with accuracy below 100%. It would also cause less frustration/sadness, ultimately making the Subway more popular by removing its reputation as a sinister place where everything is against you (false perception derived from emotion). Speaking of ideas, it's beyond me that none of the online pkmn battling simulators I know of have some sort of facility tier, like Challenge Cup but with Frontier and/or Subway roster pkmn instead, trainer-bound or not.

I agree that the Subway should measure total win/loss, preferably by win percentage since it doesn't say much about skill to use a hyper offense team six hours a day every day for months to rack up wins at some 95% clip. I guess I'm glad you clarified what you meant by "rude", as I had interpreted it differently. I'm not sure why you're giving the AI any sympathy here by remarking that I'm using a broken one (by my own earlier admission) and two you can't even find on the Subway. You sound like one of the respondents to my youtube video of my 2,364th win, as he discredited me for having used an "uber" on my Team Drapula Mesprit/Drapion/Garchomp team, which was all the more amusing given that at the time I was still months from announcing that Garchomp was to be banned from standard OU play, meaning that the commenter was actually referring to Mesprit. Who cares if I'm using a legendary, lol. Didn't you say "setting records is essentially what the Subway is all about"?

More brow-furrowing is your implication of Whimsicott—it's not on the Super Subway very likely because of Game Freak's perception of its strength, like Smeargle and Jellicent, not because it's regarded as some super "kid with Gameshark" pokemon. So this part actually hurts your argument, assuming this last paragraph in some way was meant to call into question how "fun" it might be for me to use "rude" strategies, rude because the AI won't or because the pokemon I use are super standard and easy to use. If we want to look at actual strength to question how "rewarding" a streak should be, I could refer you to the latest OU usage statistics and ask you to tell me which two pokemon are currently #1 and #2, and how this reflects on your own personal observation of fun/enjoyment. (Interestingly enough, can you guess which pokemon, at #79, is the next most used in OU after Whimsicott? Fun indeed.)

And please don't wash your hands of exploiting the AI when in essentially the same breath you state that the Subway is about setting records. You're having a hard time not contradicting yourself with not only your words but your actions (using the two most overused pokemon in all of standard is many people's idea of "no fun had", if my time in this community is any authority), so I'll just advise you to remember that fun/enjoyment is incredibly subjective. I personally find a fair bit of both in reading and writing long posts about pokemon (even if I hardly do it with the same frequency I used to), where I'm fairly certain that most even within this Smogon community do not. Further, is the issue with the risks of using the team or simply that I'm using since "rude" team regardless? I'm not sure how much the latter matters if your actual point is one of reliability, as the rest of your post is about, and not a point (and a rather haughty one) of how cheap or fun the strategy is. And when you speak of "lack of experience on the poster's part", you similarly wax hypocritical given the several strategic features of my team about which you had (and may still have, after reading this post) reservations that I've detailed are mostly non-issues given my experiences with these kinds of teams. Just keep in mind that regardless of your stated familiarity with a given team or strategy or pokemon or idea of fun and enjoyment, you may not yet know enough about any of these things to be questions others' experiences like you know something they don't.