Originally Posted by Fat Mr.lol
Ok just to clear this up BEFORE you start writing, the reason why Shadow Force should be even considered over Shadow Claw is NOT because of the humongous power boost, nay. Unless your using it with Power Herb, Shadow Force's MAIN USE IS TO TAKE THAT EXTRA POISON TURN AND TAKE ADVANTAGE OF TOXIC SPIKES.It allows Arceus to evade a WoW from Gira-a, then strike back after its taken a tad bit of residual damage, which can actually be lethal, if toxic spikes aren't present Gira-a GAINS Leftovers instead, Lugia can Reflect. If its going in AC make sure you mention that, because I have a feeling that everyone forgot that -_-. Also emphasize in AC that one Shadow Force is weaker then two Shadow Claws, warn of using it at all costs unless you have Toxic Spikes support. <- Yes I just rewrote the same statement twice in different words and bolded it, ITS THAT IMPORTANT.
Also mention Kabutops and Omastar as checks to the ExtremeKiller set since they can come in to Extremekiller as it Swords Dances, and then OHKO it next turn with a Superpower / Low Kick (Kabutops) and Hydro Pump (Omastar). Both of them don't really care about ExtremeSpeed due to respectable defenses and a resist given courtesy of typing, and they outspeed due to swift swim :D. I normally wouldn't bother to mention these things but if we are mentioning things like Gengar...... yeah...
What you have said about Shadow Force is certainly quite true. The power is still important though as it alleviates Wobbuffet concerns and stands a respectable chance at OHKOing Giratina and Lugia after SR with Life Orb, SD, and Adamant. He also easily OHKOs Physically Defensive Giratina-O with Life Orb (Adamant guaranteed, Jolly 50%). Actually, Shadow Force might be good enough due to all these points and yours to stay as a slash despite its charge turn. Thanks for your points Mr.lol, I'll be sure to use them for Shadow Force.
SS Kabutops and Omastar are certainly checks. That's why they were already mentioned. However, what you have given definitely shows that they are checks.
Concerning Gengar, I would be inclined to agree with you. Gengar is not exactly the ideal Pokemon to use in Ubers. But then again, Gengar could be annoying to Extreme Killer, however flimsy (and rare) it may be. QC? Should Gengar be seriously
EDIT: Because they are possible OHKOs, they are important. After a Swords Dance, the turns that come after do
matter. For instance, using Shadow Claw twice leaves you vulnerable to Will-O-Wisp, Roar, and assorted. Shadow Force allows you to avoid those and possibly OHKO Giratina, Lugia, etc. If they switch, Shadow Force will damage whatever comes in. However, it helps to get rid of any Normal-type Pokemon if applicable like you said before beginning a serious sweep.
Concerning Shadow Force (without Power Herb), it does better against Giratina, not Lugia. As you are fully aware of, Lugia has Reflect and also Multiscale.
Reply to Mr.lol
Like you and I said Mr.lol, it's a possible OHKO. Here is the damage calculation for a +2 Adamant Life Orb Arceus against standard Great Wall Giratina:
Shadow Force: 447-528 (88.86 - 104.97%) -- 31.25% chance to OHKO
This calculation works with both SR or no SR on the field (Providing Giratina is at full health, not poisoned, carrying leftovers, and there is no damaging weather). 31.25% to OHKO (Not counting crits) is still respectable. What more, the chance to OHKO is further increased by having Spikes, Toxic Spikes, damaging weather, or just plain damaging Giratina before. By having just a single layer of Spikes and SR, Giratina is a guaranteed goner. Toxic Spikes? Goner. Damage? Goner. Critical hit? Goner :P
Of course, if one assumes Specially Defensive Giratina, it's an entirely different story. It is to be noted though that this variant of Giratina would likely be a last resort check to Extreme Killer. Anyway, here is that same Arceus against this Giratina:
Shadow Force: 598-704 (118.88 - 139.96%) -- guaranteed OHKO
If Arceus uses Jolly and Life Orb, it's still overkill:
Shadow Force: 543-642 (107.95 - 127.63%) -- guaranteed OHKO
If Arceus uses Adamant without Life Orb, it's still a very good chance to OHKO:
Shadow Force: 460-542 (91.45 - 107.75%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
If one somehow uses Jolly without Life Orb, it does not OHKO without prior damage (But hopefully no one runs this...):
Shadow Force: 418-494 (83.1 - 98.21%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Shadow Force doesn't only apply to the Giratina formes. Arceus-Ghost hates it. Here is the calculation for a +2 Jolly Life Orb Arceus against Arceus-Ghost (Support):
Shadow Force: 546-645 (122.97 - 145.27%) -- guaranteed OHKO
This is without doubt a OHKO. Just as Earthquake destroys Arceus-Rock and Arceus-Steel, Shadow Force destroys Arceus-Ghost. And since Jolly Life Orb Extreme Killer variants tend to run max speed, on average Arceus-Ghost will lose.
Even if Arceus-Ghost runs max Def and HP investment, He still has no chance. Here is the calculation for that same Arceus against a very bulky Arceus-Ghost:
Shadow Force: 447-528 (100.67 - 118.91%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Because of Shadow Force, what would have been a possible counter is reduced to a check.
As previously mentioned by yourself and I, Shadow Force isn't very good against Lugia. This is especially true with Multiscale and Reflect. If one wants to run Shadow Force, they better have an answer to Lugia or ensure it's damaged sufficiently. Or they could run Power Herb + Shadow Force + SR. But that's an OO...
If I could leave you with one thought after you read the reply, it's this:
You are correct. Like you and I said, the OHKO is a possibility
, a chance. It is still respectable though. For your case of SR and Leftovers, there is a 31.25% chance of Arceus OHKOing Giratina (Great Wall) with a +2 Adamant Life Orb Shadow Force (Check the first damage calculation of Edit 2 for source). This does not include chance of crits.
I probably should have made the first damage calculation more explicit in referring to SR and Leftovers. Remember, Giratina switching into SR and two turns of Leftovers is essentially the same as switching into no SR.
Again, it is important to note that other stuff like Spikes, Toxic Spikes (Which you mentioned), previous damage on Giratina, etc. significantly increases the chance of an OHKO. For instance, SR and 1 layer of Spikes essentially guarantees
an OHKO. Shadow Force is a fine option against Giratina (and others) when used properly.
About your log, it does not seem to showcase Shadow Force in its best light. In fact, it doesn't even show Extreme Killer
in a good light. The individual who used Extreme Killer seemed to use Him very early in the game, clearly evident by the turn count. When facing a team as defensive as that, it might prove useful to weaken it a bit before sending out Extreme Killer. I assume you were R-spin?
If you want colors
, just use this:
[COLOR=Insert Hex Color]Insert Text Here[/COLOR].
To be honest, I just copied one of my many test logs (Logs which are testing Shadow Force's performance against Giratina and vice versa) and pasted it here. Seemed to work fine for me.
NOTE: I'll be sure to use the points gathered during this discussion for Shadow Force! Right now, I'm leaning towards keeping it as a second slash, but with lots of comments in AC about its advantages/disadvantages over Shadow Claw. Thanks.
EDIT 4: Check the first post of this thread for my planned comments on Shadow Force. Are these suitable?