Originally Posted by Fat locoghoul
The magic bounce poke helping Lugia to keep Multiscale is lol. Decent to good players will have SR on the field.
Then it appears that most of the people in the top 100 on Pokémon Showdown's Ubers ladder are not "decent to good players" then, since I managed to block Stealth Rock with Espeon in the vast majority of my matches on my way up that ladder (which has the Wifi Clause, by the way, making Espeon significantly easier to predict and play around than in the many other ladders on Pokémon Online that don't have Team Preview).
Originally Posted by Fat locoghoul
The fact that -according to this "logic" anyways- Lugia needs an extra support poke (a Magic Bounce one in this case), kinda defeats the purpose of it being on the top tier (it's own tier mind you). If this logic is correct then Shedinja with baton pass should be at least on defensive tier 2 because zomg it walls Kyogre, Lati@s, Kyurem-B, Zekrom, Steelceus, Fightceus, Electriceus, Iceceus, Psychiceus and checks Mewtwo "with the help of a Magic Bounce pokemon".
Excadrill and Swift Swim Pokémon need Sand Stream and Drizzle support respectively to be amazing, yet this does not stop the aforementioned from being considered so top tier in OU that this community has banned them from that metagame. Also, Lugia requiring Magic Bounce support is hardly a big deal when Magic Bounce support is one of the best things any team could have anyway (especially in the Übers tier, where Ferrothorn gets ample opportunities to set up Spikes due to the prevalence of rain, and where Rapid Spin is almost useless due to the existence of Arceus-Ghost and Giratina), due to its myriad of amazing utilities. Do not think of Magic Bounce support as being something that takes up an entire spot on a team just to prevent Stealth Rock from crippling Lugia. Rather, think of ALL
the benefits Magic Bounce gives to the ENTIRE
team - in my first post in this
thread, I have listed nine wonders of Magic Bounce, and I would imagine that just about any team would kill to be able to reap the benefits of at least a few of them.
As for trickroom, everything you have mentioned about Lugia is true, but that's not the point. Yes, people can Rapid Spin, Toxic, or set up entry hazards against Lugia (none of which are too big of a deal as Lugia's trainer can just switch to a Ghost-type Pokémon, Espeon/Xatu, and Espeon/Xatu respectively), but are we not discussing Lugia's usefulness relative to other Pokémon in terms of its defensive abilities? Even though people can do all that stuff due to Lugia's lack offensive presence, it still does not change the fact that Lugia is a cut above every other Pokémon in existence when it comes to being a defensive Pokémon, which is what the entire Defensive Tier List is all about. No other Pokémon - not Giratina, not Ferrothorn, not Eviolite Chansey, not Groudon, or even any Forme of Arceus comes anywhere remotely close to being able to singlehandedly not only counter, but also paralyze/poison and Whirlwind out the sheer number of Pokémon that Lugia can. Giratina can be overpowered through Dragon-type moves. Ferrothorn can do nothing against any Pokémon packing a Fire-type move and also cannot stop bulky sweepers with recovery due to its lack of a pseudo-hazing move. Chansey also cannot pseudo-haze and loses to physical sweepers. Groudon is destroyed by special attacks and doesn't even have reliable recovery. And defensive Arceus Formes lose to various Pokémon depending on their type, and the vast majority of them cannot handle Ho-Oh at all. Lugia, on the other hand, can tank Thunders, Stone Edges, +1 super effective Judgments, +2 Shadow Forces, and manage a large number of absolutely ridiculous defensive feats which no other Pokémon could even dream of achieving, and really only fears Cloyster's Icicle Spear and Teravolt or Turboblaze-enhanced attacks. And if Lugia paralyzes Kyurem-W, it can even use Roost and tank its Choice Specs Ice Beams. Yes, Giratina can Will-o-Wisp things, Ferrothorn can set up entry hazards and unleash a powerful Gyro Ball or Power Whip, Chansey can use Aromatherapy/Heal Bell and pass Wishes, and Groudon and Arceus can be both offensive and defensive at the same time. Many other defensive Pokémon have much greater offensive presence than Lugia, but none of this changes the fact that Lugia rightfully occupies Tier 1 alone on the Defensive
Tier List. Also, saying that Reshiram, Zekrom and Kyurem-W can power their way through Lugia doesn't mean much, as I never said that Lugia is an absolutely
indestructible wall without any weaknesses. But my point is that the ratio of the Pokémon that Lugia can
counter, to those that it cannot
, far outclasses any and every other Pokémon in existence. That is why Lugia should be alone at the top of the Defensive Tier List.
Also, Arceus-Normal having "a fair share of checks" does not refute the notion that it is a ridiculous cut above every other offensive threat in the game. Every
offensive Pokémon in existence has "a fair share of checks," but what is the difference between Arceus-Normal and just about every other offensive threat in the game? Look at every
single Pokémon I have listed in Tier 2 on my Offensive Tier List, and what do you see all of them having in common that Arceus-Normal lacks? The answer is that all
it takes to be able to revenge-kill (and thus "checking") any
of those Pokémon is to simply send out a faster Pokémon under the condition that it can deal a lot of damage to it (neither Arceus-Ghost nor Rayquaza have an ExtremeSpeed anywhere near as powerful as Arceus-Normal and thus their +2 ExtremeSpeeds miss out on a lot of important KOs that Arceus-Normal can achieve). But no, Arceus-Normal's strongest move has +2 priority, so while I can send out a Choice Scarf Kyogre or Reshiram to revenge-kill my opponent's +6 Darkrai, or send out my Choice Scarf Garchomp to revenge-kill my opponent's +6 Latias or Latios, my revenge-killer needs an extra condition to ensure that it can revenge-kill just a +2 Arceus-Normal, and that is that it either resists ExtremeSpeed, or is naturally bulky enough to survive it. Combine this with the fact that Arceus-Normal only has one
weakness, and not counting unreleased Dream World Abilities, the only viable Pokémon in Übers that can do that are Excadrill in the sand and Choice Scarf Terrakion (which is probably as popular as it is in Übers largely because of this exact reason anyway). And you know what else all of the offensive Pokémon in Tier 2 barring Groudon and Arceus-Ground have in common that Arceus-Normal lacks? It is the fact that all of them are largely neutralized simply by getting hit by Thunder Wave. But Arceus-Normal doesn't care about that besides the 25% chance that it gets fully paralyzed and the fact that it can no longer outrun some Brick Break/Earthquake/Shadow Claw targets, which isn't that bad thanks to its insane bulk for a sweeper anyway.
Revenge-killing, and paralysis. These are two pretty much universal
methods of checking just about every sweeper in existence. It is pretty much unheard of to see a sweeper still continuing to be a threat even though I just paralyzed it, or sent out a faster Pokémon that can KO it. When people discuss the various checks that certain sweepers such as Calm Mind Mewtwo and Dragon Dance Rayquaza have, do you ever see them mentioning "Thunder Wave" as a check? You don't, and why? Because it is obvious
that a simple Thunder Wave neutralizes them. This is so obvious that people don't even bother to mention it, as they take for granted that pretty much every set-up sweeper can be simply neutralized by this move, just as a testament to how universal such a method of dealing with a sweeper is. Even if your team does not have a reliable switch-in to a certain offensive threat, you can still
sometimes beat it by paralyzing or revenge-killing it. But thanks to the fact that its main, Same Type Attack Bonus attack is ExtremeSpeed
of all moves the two aforementioned universal methods of checking a sweeper do not work against Arceus-Normal, or in the case of revenge-killing, anywhere near as well as it should. And this is why people have to rely on using physically bulky pseudo-hazers like Skarmory and Lugia, and users of the unreliable Will-O-Wisp to counter it. And the fact that Arceus-Normal's sheer presence in the metagame has centralized and warped it in such a way that all successful teams need either a Choice Scarf Terrakion, a Will-o-Wisp user, and/or a physically bulky pseudo-hazer just goes to show that it is by far the greatest offensive threat.
And finally, I should point out that a Pokémon lacking initial power means nothing when it is so bulky and its weakness is so few that the single turn it takes to set up a Swords Dance and gain that firepower is pretty much guaranteed anyway.