Join Date: Mar 2009
Originally Posted by Fat Poppy
Giratina-O / Tentacruel / Forretress / Ghost Arceus / Kyogre / Dialga
No one rating this?
Straight off, ExtremeKiller looks a bit worrisome, Ghost Arceus is a shaky check with Judgment and Giratina-O is straight up OHKOd by LO Shadow Claw, so watch out. I know it's a matter of getting Leech Seed off and switching around but it's still a bitch.
Darkrai is a problem too, as you only have one Pokemon that outspeeds it and nothing to take a Dark Void.
A Mewtwo with 3 or 4 attacks would prove a threat too, nothing really like switches in on it and it can beat Arceus Ghost if it has CM. Giratina-O shakily checks it, but with a -SDef nature is easily 2HKOd by Ice Beam.
Rayquaza is also a big problem for teams like these, carrying moves that can severely hurt everything and Arceus Ghost not being to OHKO it is a problem as well.
I'd also watch out for Kabutops, whose rain boosted Waterfall 2hkos Arceus Ghost (iirc).
Watch out for Sub Seed Shaymin-S, as it sets up on Ferrothorn and can actually do severe damage with Dialga with a neutral Air Slash if it gets the SDef drop (Expert Belt with Earth Power and HP Fire actually is a bit problem too, but only I use that I think...)
Gliscor can also set up on Ferrothorn, and much easier a Burned Ferrothorn, and be really annoying.
A Cloyster + Wobbuffet can also sweep you clean if you're not careful with Ferrothorn.
A Jolly Bisharp can sweep you clean if it gets a chance to set up.
Aside from all that this is a very nice team, and a good example of rain balance. There isn't much I can suggest that wouldn't change the whole team, but consider:
Jirachi over Tentacruel
Forretress over Ferrothorn
Giratina-O to phys.def or phys.def Giratina-A.
This improves the defensive back bone of the team greatly as Arceus Grass can check non-V-Create Rayquaza with Ice Beam, Jirachi can take on Mewtwo and most CM Arceus reliably. Forretress can counter Gliscor with HP Ice. Physically defensive Giratina is a very good check to ExtremeKiller.
Dialga can run more speed to get the jump on Jolly Bisharp, but it's rare. Kabutops is also nicely checked by Grass Arceus.
cool team, solid for its metagame
I'm going to address the individual qualms I've had with these Pokemon as together, I think these changes would change the core drastically and make for a different (but still similarly functioning) really cool team.
I had been thinking about other Arceus forms initially and Grassceus stuck with me, but using that didn't really help my concerns about being SD Arc weak, unless there's a really weird spread that I don't know about that lets me live both SpecsOgre's assaults and +2 XSpeeds from Arc comfortably. With Ho-Oh and V-Create Ray plaguing this team, I wasn't sure if I wanted another Fire-weak mon.
Jirachi is admittedly a mon that I had not really given much thought about since I was worried about being weak to offensive Groudon and even weaker to Ho-Oh, though another Dragon-type resistance would be great and the Wish passes would be invaluable; I wasn't too sure about where to fit it.
Forry was another mon considered for the role of T-Spike + Spin, but I felt that Ferro and Forry was really redundant, and defensively Grass was more valuable than Bug, plus Tentacruel synergized with Rain better.
Physically defensive Giratina-O is a recent set that people are using and one that I haven't given much thought to. It's worth a test over the current Gira-O spread, and I will let you know how it synergizes with the team. Giratina-A is out of the question as versus opposing Spikes-reliant teams, I prefer Levitate and an offensive presence than Pressure.
Thank you for the rate Poppy!
Originally Posted by Fat TrollFreak
well, I sent you a VM, but I guess Poppy outlined my thoughts here didn't he.
Like I said before(and what poppy brought up), SD Arceus is troublesome, as the checks on the team are shaky. A quick fix to this is changing Gira-O's EV Spread to 208 HP / 60 Atk / 188 Def / 24 SAtk / 28 Spd
with a Naughty
nature, as it so you takes a +2 SD Arceus's Shadow Claw even after 2 Stealth Rock switch ins, so you can deal with it easier. You could also try Thunder
> Draco Meteor for Manaphy, since it can be troublesome as well once Ferrothorn goes down, though you should be able to phaze it out w/ Diagla before it becomes a menace.
Also, Darkrai and Mewtwo do pose threats, though its harder to fix those without making a significant change. Like I said before, using a Choice Scarf Heracross
over Tentacruel works, as you have something to check Darkrai, as well as Mewtwo with Megahorn, plus it checks Shaymin-S w/o a Sub up and Rayquaza w/o DD with Stone Edge(yea, its shaky, but it sadly never got Ice Punch). With that, you could try a bulkier Kyorge spread, since your team requires rain to keep Ho-Oh and Reshiram in check. As such, a Sub CM Kyorge with 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 SAtk and Ice Beam
or a Thunder Wave Kyorge
can both work, as one means Kyorge can switch into Ho-Oh easier, and with 101 HP Subs, sets up on Chans + Bliss, as well as Ferrothorns without Power Whip(not much, but some omit the move), making it easier to break down teams with. If you do decide to try it, and you do go for Ice Beam, which you'll need for Shaymin-S and Rayquaza, defensibly use Thunder > Draco on Gira-O, since Kyorge would be walled by other Kyorge and Manaphy. On the other hand, Thunder Wave Kyorge cripples switch in such as Shaymin-S and Palkia, making it easier for Dialga to break it down. Ofc, you can use either set and alter to EVs to your liking, though the team is good as is, just some suggestions really than a rate.
So, in summary:
Scarf Heracross > Tenta
Pros: Revenge killer, Ground-resist(not a bulky one, but one never the less) handles Darkrai and checks Mewtwo, checks Shaymin-S and Quaza(w/o subs or DD anyways) with Stone Edge, along with a few other Pokemon, such as Terrakion, Arceus-Grass, and the Latis to name some
Cons: W/o tenta, you don't really have anything to sponge Special Attacks such as Reshiram's Blue Flares (unless you use defensive Kyorge) and you lose out on Rapid Spin, but as far as Spinning goes, you don't have any Pokemon weak to Stealth Rock, though Toxic Spikes can be a bitch(did I mention you lose YOUR Toxic Spikes as well), so you'll have to play smart so that it doesn't get up too many
Sub CM Kyorge or T-Wave > Scarf
Pros: SubCM with my EV spread gives it bulky 101 HP Subs, meaning you set up on Chans/Bliss and Ferro w/o Power Whip, as well as a Pokemon that can switch into Kyorge easily, plus Kyorge gains way more survivability, meaning that it keeps rain longer, helping out your team, while with T-Wave, you can cripple common Kyorge switch ins, making it easier for the team to deal with later, works even better w/o Tenta, since T-Spikes don't conflict with the team anymore
Cons: Losing a much more powerful revenge killer than Heracross, so you'll have to think about that. Imo, your team will work better with a bulkier revenge killer, though its your team, its up to you
@ Choice Scarf
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Close Combat
- Sleep Talk
- Stone Edge
Great team Andrew, really great team.
Thank you Trollfreak. This rate looks to make ym team more offensively oriented, which is a spin that I had not thought much about. Scarf Cross is an interesting mon to use, but in my general experience with it, it hasn't been too helpful; nonetheless it's a cool revenge killer. I'd tried Thunder at one point, but I hadn't really found it to be that helpful given that I generally tried to phaze out Manaphy to force it to take more hazards damage and I preferred Draco to hit the more common Dialga and Groudon. That EV Spread though is interesting, and I'll try that out too.
T-Wave Ogre is something that came to mind before, but with the nature of the team, I preferred having them lose residual damage from Burn and Toxic rather than be completely paralyzed as it made it easier for a final Gira-O Shadow Sneak sweep rather than take a 10% Draco Miss chance in a final sweep. Thank you for your rate!
Originally Posted by Fat Mr.lol
WAIT THIS IS CHALLENGE ACCEPTED AS IN THE GUY WHO DROVE ME CRAZY WHILE I WAS TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHOSE ALT IT IS???
You realize you better be prepared for an alt war right -_-.
Ok anyways aside that, this team is actually pretty cool, the setup sweepers mentioned earlier IMO, aren't that big since ogre revenges them anyway, but I do think Specs Ogre may seem to annoy you a bit. IIRC it 2HKOes everything (even Tentacruel at the moment due to lack of Protect), on the team and getting rid of one thing would hurt the teams backbone a good amount.
There are two ways to fix this though, one is by going Specially Defensive Gira-a is better then your current Gira-o OR you could go with Poppy's suggestions and run a Grass Arceus set with like Perish Song / Judgment / Ice Beam / Recover to counter Specs Ogre. This team is also weak to Tauntrados who can clean up after Kyogre's weakened since it dies to +2 Outrage but I'm probably the only one of thinks that so you should probably ignore me and move on.
I suggest going with Poppy's suggestions though since they do pair up the backbone of the team, although if you really hate enemy CM Steelceus all you had to do was substitute Focus Blast for Perish Song :P, I thought Arceus-Ghost was just supposed to burn-n-run to Ferro lol.
Its a really nice team with few threats IMO, and most of the threats listed are already revenged by Kyogre, its a nice team :D.
SDef Gira-O is an alternative that I have not given much thought to, but I wasn't too sure about it due to the fact that my spinblocker with no residual recovery would have to take neutral Specs Water Spouts (Rain cancels out resistance) and the fact that stuff often aimed Draco Meteors, Spacial Rends, Ice Beams, Shadow Balls for this thing, and I generally don't like relying on Rest, esp. in BW. Perish Song is an interesting option that I will try out soon, but I preferred the immediate crippling of burns. However, I did not think about trying it out over Focus Blast since I wanted something to hit Rai switch-ins too.
Originally Posted by Fat shrang
The biggest problem I see with this team is the fact that you're lacking firepower or win conditions. Any last mon mono-attacking Calm Mind Arceus with Refresh will just end up destroying you (Dark Arceus, Water Arceus, etc). Your opponent can easily just sac every Pokemon on their team, then bring in Arceus and you cannot do ANYTHING to it. You are also relatively weak to Manaphy, although Ferrothorn works well, I guess. Probably the easiest way to solve this problem is to just stick Perish Song on Arceus, I suppose.
Yes, I wrote up tons of paragraphs for no win conditions and been using Giratina-O and Kyogre without ever using them as a means to damage the opposing teams. It's a wonder how I ever achieved #1 twice and won a team tourney with this team, going 3-2 in Team Trials IV.
At 100%, it's a problem, but nobody ever saves it for the very end. They come in a couple of times and I get up a SR layer or a couple of layers of Spikes. It can only pick one move before I generally go to Kyogre, which I generally save for the opposing Arceus, especially if I see a specially based move. If it's not Water, Grass (lol great STAB), or Dragon, they eat Surfs, which generally do 50-60%. If they Refresh, they get 2HKO'd, if they CM, the T-Spikes I've set up earlier will whittle them down a bit more to put them into KO range. Waterceus faces Thunder, which does more damage than Surf. Grassceus doesn't bother me.