[Thorhammer]

"Literally" is a strong word. Grabbing a few quotes in quick succession towards the middle of this:

Originally Posted by Fat EonX-

Didn't want a huge wall of text, but anyway. I've always found Landorus-T to be a great check to physical Dragons, and it definitely keeps Garchomp in check. Instead of +2 boosted hits, you only have to handle +1 boosted attacks. If it's Banded, you're just dealing with non-LO Garchomp without a Scarf. If it's Scarfed, well, lol. Idgaf about 130 Attack. -1 Attack is -1 Attack. Seriously, Lando-T is amazing and Garchomp being around just adds to the list of physical attackers it can hold in check.

I've found that Sun teams are generally benefiting most from Garchomp atm. It gives them a strong physical Dragon that isn't weak to SR and can still utilize Fire moves (Fire Fang and Fire Blast) Dragon+Ground is an amazing STAB combination and if you add a pseudo-STAB Fire move to it, very few things can hope to safely switch-in. Still, 102 Speed isn't what it was last Gen. Sure, you still get in front of Salamence, Volcarona, and friends, but you still fall short of Latios, Terrakion, Keldeo, and the rarer Infernape. Garchomp is great, but there are plenty of things to keep it in check now. And now, you don't have to worry about randomly missing with a move that's supposed to have 100% accuracy.

Originally Posted by Fat Dark Fallen Angel

I found this to be a complete exaggeration. There are many checks to Garchomp now, and if you are still afraid, just use Weavile/Mamoswine. Seriously, who does this that you have spoke are overestimating Garchomp. In fact, before this test ladder, I've battled with some pseudo-OU teams that used Garchomp (and that's the only reason that their teams were labeled as Ubers) and I never had problems taking Garchomp down.



That's what I am saying. Garchomp benefits sun teams that now have a member that doesn't compound their weakness to Stealth Rock and Water attacks. Sun teams tend to have a lot of checks to Mamoswine and Weavile. Thick Fat is negated by the sun wich means that Mamoswine's neutrality to Fire turns in a weakness. I can see Garchomp becoming a staple on many sun teams - I've always wanted to use a Dragon-type on my sun team but all Dragons either had a weakness to Stealth Rock or had secondary STABs that overlaped with something on my team. Garchomp has neither of these problems.

The only problem is that Garchomp is forced to use Fire Blast off a base 80 Special Attack, or use Fire Fang, while despite being physical, is innacurate and weak. Not that you are forced to use a Fire-type attack on him, but I can see no reason why you would not if you can now 2HKO Specially Defensive Skarmory (and maybe physically defensive ones with sufficient Swords Dance boosts) and OHKO Ferrothorn.



I tried to use Garchomp on my sand team, and then I realized that it's much better to use him on sun. Despite Garchomp not being weak to sandstorm damage and not compounding weakness, Garchomp doesn't do anything that Landorus can't already do.

Originally Posted by Fat LucaroarkZ

I don't understand this logic. What you're basically saying here is "Well this is why it was banned in early DP, so it must be why it was banned in BW!". 102 base Speed is good, but in this Speed-obsessed metagame, certainly not amazing. In addition, Ice Shard is literally everywhere in the metagame even without Garchomp.

Also, I'd just like to ask: How is Garchomp any more metagame dominant than, say, Terrakion? I've found that in all of my battles on the suspect ladder, my Terrakion does significantly more work than my Garchomp. SD Garchomp sweeps are much harder to pull off without Sand Veil, in addition to such a large number of things in this metagame being faster than it. Very rarely did I ever get the chance to pull off a Garchomp sweep, and when I did, I was forced into late-game sweeping because of the ubiquity of Ice Shard and threats faster than it. In addition, I fail to see how ScarfChomp is any better than Scarf Landorus. Without Sand Veil, Garchomp is just really easy to kill. As such, I believe its ban in early DP should not be used in an argument in BW2. BW2 is not DP and should not be treated as such.

Originally Posted by Fat dragonuser

Went to the suspect ladder to test Garchomp, and I can really say that I don't think it is broken. I mainly used Scarf Garchomp in my matches (got #1 on ladder pretty easily), and it really didn't perform that much differently from other scarfers like Landorus. Albeit scarf isn't the only set, and they have different STAB's etc, but Garchomp really wasn't game breaking in any of my matches. I sort of view Rough Skin Garchomp as the new Landorus-I (as it was to the BW1 metagame), as it has a good speed that lets it check many boosters.

Frankly without Sand Veil, Garchomp is hard pressed to effectively set up SubSD (in my experience vs it). I do believe Sand Veil was the main reason for its previous ban, and without it Garchomp is pretty mediocre (as a booster) and is pretty much as broken as most of the other dragons in our metagame. Also to all the people saying Sand Veil isn't broken, I would really just like to quote something BKC said,


Of course this will rarely happen, but the premise is the same in that even though you may have Garchomp checks/counter (well in this case Gliscor), Sand Veil may allow them to dodge your guaranteed KO move, letting them then sweep your team. I really don't see how an ability that turns an absolute win into an absolute loss, and is entirely based on luck, shouldn't be banned.

Anyways onto the actual Garchomp set discussion. I really see Choice Scarf as being his main set, as it lets him always outspeed some key players in the metagame (Genesect/Thundurus-t) and he can still hit really hard with his base 130 Attack. Sub Salac SD Garchomp is also a really cool set, letting you get a speed boost after a potential attack boost, essentially preparing you to wreck.

edit: idk why my quote is being weird and won't format properly. Just ignore the random enter

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Plenty of reasoning beyond "it checks things", and there are posts like these all over the thread. So these claims you've been making about peoples' reasoning being dependent on its checking things are demonstrably false.