Smogon Community - View Single Post - CAP 4 - Part 4

**capefeather** · Sep 27th, 2012, 8:30:49 AM

Code:

<+Pwnemon> Cape looking at your arguments for No Guard
<+Pwnemon> It looks like you have taken the concept of risk and morphed it into a concept of "FUK HAX"
<&Birkal> well honestly
<&Birkal> if you take away accuracy worries
<+Pwnemon> And yes, i say this knowing you penned the concept
<&Birkal> it allows you to dig more in depth with the risk concept
<+Pwnemon> I disagree, birkal
<+Pwnemon> It's a complete nonfactor
<&Birkal> ok
<+Pwnemon> It's like saying "not eating broccoli makes steak taste better"
<+Pwnemon> If anything it removes risk/reward because you can't calculate the chances that hax will screw your opponent in any myriad of situations
<Numbuh214> well, i personally like the point someone else brought up
<Numbuh214> that no guard isn't the only accuracy boosting ability
<+Pwnemon> Compoundeyes is no risk
<+Pwnemon> Stop right now
<+Pwnemon> I really think that risky business was the biggest misnomer to ever befall a concept
* creepshow (~anonymous@synIRC-7A73927C.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) Quit (Broken pipe)
<+Pwnemon> Cape's entire vision with the thing was to eliminate any semblance of risk ._.

I honestly don't know how to make my argument any clearer. I have taken many measures to assure people that this isn't just about the hax. I have taken measures to point out how relevant hax is to the concept, even if we don't want to focus on it. Combined with jas's reply to me and the continued references to CompoundEyes, I am forced to conclude that reactions like this are because I am looking at the ability stage for this project differently from the people who are against No Guard.

CAP 4's abilities do not have to be overly extravagant. We don't have to be in optimization mode for the whole project, especially here where it could actually lead to failure or irrelevance of the abilities. I fear that Simple would either be a generic rewarding ability or pigeonhole CAP 4 into a setup sweeper role and suck otherwise. Moxie is the kind of ability that only really works if you're already winning. The entire proposed slate has real potential to be entirely rewarding or entirely irrelevant. It is simply not necessary to have abilities that aim to alter CAP 4's role significantly, for the sake of learning about the metagame. We need the Pokémon, not the process, to be risky. We shouldn't have our efforts to push the concept forward end up pushing it backward or not at all.

It is with this in mind that I disagree with the notion that somehow the "baseline" is the best control variable for the CAP project regardless of the situation. What we should control is entirely dependent on the concept. It is like testing the physical laws of motion on earth when they could be tested in outer space, claiming that the earth is what we know, so the earth is what's relevant. Yet, testing the laws of motion in outer space can prove to be more illuminating because we not only get to see how the laws of motion actually work, but also get to see what effects the factors native to the earth (e.g. air) have from a more objective angle. We already have so many examples of Pokémon that have the tools to "predict the opponent" and punish effectively (up to luck factors), that in this stage we are essentially trying to go off the wall to test risk in a different way. In this respect, No Guard is no different from the other suggestions, while being more likely to be effective in its purpose than the others.

In the end, we do have a secondary ability stage. The second ability will depend significantly on what we choose as the first ability, and I think it will be especially difficult for the CAP 4 project to pair the first ability up with a complementary second ability without having one outclass the other. IMO, No Guard at least is not as affected by this as other abilities (in general, not just in the slate), and the arguments for it will essentially be the same regardless of it being proposed as the first or second ability. I think that No Guard will be better at pairing with other abilities (again, in general) than other abilities will be at pairing with each other.

Truth be told, the weakness to Rock especially made No Guard more relevant than it otherwise could have been...

Sep 27th, 2012, 8:30:49 AM	#170
capefeather hey, even pirates need attorneys Moderator Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 2,606 especially internet pirates	Code: <+Pwnemon> Cape looking at your arguments for No Guard <+Pwnemon> It looks like you have taken the concept of risk and morphed it into a concept of "FUK HAX" <&Birkal> well honestly <&Birkal> if you take away accuracy worries <+Pwnemon> And yes, i say this knowing you penned the concept <&Birkal> it allows you to dig more in depth with the risk concept <+Pwnemon> I disagree, birkal <+Pwnemon> It's a complete nonfactor <&Birkal> ok <+Pwnemon> It's like saying "not eating broccoli makes steak taste better" <+Pwnemon> If anything it removes risk/reward because you can't calculate the chances that hax will screw your opponent in any myriad of situations <Numbuh214> well, i personally like the point someone else brought up <Numbuh214> that no guard isn't the only accuracy boosting ability <+Pwnemon> Compoundeyes is no risk <+Pwnemon> Stop right now <+Pwnemon> I really think that risky business was the biggest misnomer to ever befall a concept * creepshow (~anonymous@synIRC-7A73927C.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) Quit (Broken pipe) <+Pwnemon> Cape's entire vision with the thing was to eliminate any semblance of risk ._. I honestly don't know how to make my argument any clearer. I have taken many measures to assure people that this isn't just about the hax. I have taken measures to point out how relevant hax is to the concept, even if we don't want to focus on it. Combined with jas's reply to me and the continued references to CompoundEyes, I am forced to conclude that reactions like this are because I am looking at the ability stage for this project differently from the people who are against No Guard. CAP 4's abilities do not have to be overly extravagant. We don't have to be in optimization mode for the whole project, especially here where it could actually lead to failure or irrelevance of the abilities. I fear that Simple would either be a generic rewarding ability or pigeonhole CAP 4 into a setup sweeper role and suck otherwise. Moxie is the kind of ability that only really works if you're already winning. The entire proposed slate has real potential to be entirely rewarding or entirely irrelevant. It is simply not necessary to have abilities that aim to alter CAP 4's role significantly, for the sake of learning about the metagame. We need the Pokémon, not the process, to be risky. We shouldn't have our efforts to push the concept forward end up pushing it backward or not at all. It is with this in mind that I disagree with the notion that somehow the "baseline" is the best control variable for the CAP project regardless of the situation. What we should control is entirely dependent on the concept. It is like testing the physical laws of motion on earth when they could be tested in outer space, claiming that the earth is what we know, so the earth is what's relevant. Yet, testing the laws of motion in outer space can prove to be more illuminating because we not only get to see how the laws of motion actually work, but also get to see what effects the factors native to the earth (e.g. air) have from a more objective angle. We already have so many examples of Pokémon that have the tools to "predict the opponent" and punish effectively (up to luck factors), that in this stage we are essentially trying to go off the wall to test risk in a different way. In this respect, No Guard is no different from the other suggestions, while being more likely to be effective in its purpose than the others. In the end, we do have a secondary ability stage. The second ability will depend significantly on what we choose as the first ability, and I think it will be especially difficult for the CAP 4 project to pair the first ability up with a complementary second ability without having one outclass the other. IMO, No Guard at least is not as affected by this as other abilities (in general, not just in the slate), and the arguments for it will essentially be the same regardless of it being proposed as the first or second ability. I think that No Guard will be better at pairing with other abilities (again, in general) than other abilities will be at pairing with each other. Truth be told, the weakness to Rock especially made No Guard more relevant than it otherwise could have been... __________________ If we cannot take joy in things that are merely real, our lives will always be empty. <+joshe> im a registered sex offender for up to calc 3 <+Reflect_Suicune> i was thining of fucking jellicent for some reason <DetroitLolcat> I AM AROUSED BY BIMETALLIC CURRENCY! Last edited by capefeather; Sep 27th, 2012 at 8:40:58 AM.