Originally Posted by Fat Asylum_Rhapsody
Only if somebody actually makes a good argument for something else. ....No Guard now forms compelling dualities with both current abilities, with Weak Armor in terms of their relationship in trading bulkiness for sweepiness and with Illusion in terms of their opposite approaches to examining prediction-based risk...Right now, I think that bmb's slate look exactly as it should, though I would be interested to hear better arguments for Multi-Scale, specifically with regards to its relationship to both of our existing abilities.
I don't actually think I've seen any good argument for No Guard synergising well with the other two Abilities. It just happens to be BMB's clear favourite.
Any Ability that gives a boost to attacks while not dropping defence has the same relationship with Weak Armour "in terms of their relationship in trading bulkiness for sweepiness" - the exact same thing could be said for Moxie
, for example. It provides a situational Attack boost instead of a situational Speed boost, asking the player to choose wisely which type of boost will be better for their CAP on their team. I am sorry I didn't fully explain why Moxie synergises well with Weak Armour before, I thought it was patently obvious given all the discussion in the Secondary Ability thread about having a choice between Attack boosts or Speed boosts. That both Abilities are situational, but for different situations, is the icing on the cake of their complementarity.
has a different variation on this relationship, increasing bulk instead of decreasing it (and therefore giving CAP4 more chance to sweep.)
has a third variation on the 'trading bulkiness for sweepiness' interaction with Weak Armour: It doesn't reduce bulk but it reduces HP (through Burn) in order to increase sweeping ability, so you forego the chance for a speed boost from Weak Armour in exchange for being in control of your own boost, and accepting the risk imposed by the countdown timer from the Burn. You also have the potential for interesting and risky predictions given from Trick and Psycho Shift that could make or break the match for you.
So, all 3 of the above Abilities complement Weak Armour and should be slated. I won't expand on Multiscale as I find it the least interesting and other people are discussing it plenty.
Now, you also say that:
Originally Posted by Fat Asylum_Rhapsody
....No Guard now forms compelling dualities with .... with Illusion in terms of their opposite approaches to examining prediction-based risk...
This is a pretty ill-formed and vague statement so I am not really sure what you mean, Illusion is so completely different from any other Ability that it's pretty impossible to say it is the opposite approach
of anything. Anyway, Illusion is as you say, all about prediction-based risk. The prediction is mainly on the opponent as they have to decide how to respond to the possibly disguised pokemon, in this way, Illusion is a fairly safe Ability to use. I have already written at length about how No Guard is even safer (to the point of being a boring choice) and if you re-read Theorymon's advocacy of No Guard you'll see (s)he's also saying No Guard is very safe and reliable.
Originally Posted by Fat Theorymon
The main reason I'm interested in no guard now is because its interaction with CAP 4's movepool will actually give more risk to Illusion.... Are you willing to give up reliable coverage to play mind tricks or get the speed to destroy common Choice Scarfers, or is No Guard just THAT reliable? I think this could help us learn more, is there a risk with so much payoff that its worth the consequences, or is the safe option the option players are always going to gravitate to regardless of the massive pay offs of the risk?
Forgive me if I'm mistaken, but we Don't Want to give CAP4 another safe Ability. Illusion is already a safe-enough option for those that deem Weak Armour too risky. No Guard is the epitome of safe Abilities, basically guaranteeing that neither you nor the opponent can lose because of miss-hax. Theorymon's point was that it would be interesting to see which people want more - quite reliable Illusion, or super reliable No Guard. This is not an interesting opportunity to learn something people. If we as a community decide we Want to give CAP4 a competitive third Ability, it should be risky as hell!
For me, Flare Boost
is the riskiest of the options and you only have to read Deck Knight's posts to see why. Now, does it synergise with Illusion? As much as anything can - you give yourself a guaranteed advantage (SpA boost, chance to Trick or Psycho Shift the Burn to cripple Scizor etc.) for a guaranteed risk (HP loss). Illusion's benefit and risk are entirely dependent on the guessing game between player and opponent, and clever play with entry hazards/weather.
In this way, you choose your Ability depending on whether you whether you want to be in control of the risk/reward
(Flare Boost), whether you want the opponent to have to do most of the risky predicting
(Illusion) or whether you want a middle ground
(Weak Armour). This nice interaction is the case for Flare Boost and for any other risky Ability where you are self-imposing the risk and reward by choosing it.
is also risky for the user in a different way to Illusion. Illusion's effect is immediately activated for the CAP4 user - apart from getting rid of hazards etc that would betray the disguise, you don't have to do anything to set it up. Illusion makes CAP4 a great early-game pokemon that must use boosting moves in order to be able to sweep, but you don't need any effort to make Illusion useful. The opposite is true for Moxie, anyone who uses Heracross in UU will know that Moxie makes for a great late-game sweeper which doesn't need boosting moves, but the player must work to get rid of Bug/Fighting resists, eliminate revenge killers and reduce the opponents' health enough to have a chance for a Moxie sweep. I really like how Moxie encourages almost the total opposite team role to Illusion and in this way, they've a high degree of complementarity.
Once again, I CBA to argue for Multiscale's synergy with the other Abilities.
TLDR: Flare Boost and Moxie
are popular, fulfill the concept more than No Guard, and synergise well with Weak Armour/Illusion. They provide opportunities to explore different kinds of risk and for CAP4 to fulfill different team roles. Please slate/vote for them.