Join Date: Sep 2011
Temp V1, thanks for making a rebuttal in a civil manner. Reading through your post (which does make some good points) made me feel like I didn't elaborate enough in mine as to exactly why the concept is not very good, and I mostly just listed the generalizations. Of course what I say isn't necessarily true for every team, but there is one thing you have to make note of. In BW1, I remember reading a guide to playing stall, and it said you can't cover every Pokemon, but you have to deal with them through proper offensive pressure by aggressively laying hazards and forcing switches. That's basically the premise behind all stall nowadays—you can't cover every single viable threat in this metagame because of its diversity, and I think that everyone should agree here (this isn't to say stall is unviable, I love stall a lot actually).
Now let's start with Ninetales again. I think I read somewhere in your post that you agree that Ninetales is bad, but that it provides dual status or phazing when necessary. I can't discount that, as it makes the team much, much less weak to Substitute + Calm Mind Latias, as well as threats that try and make a Substitute directly in front of Ninetales. That's definitely helpful. The thing is, you're basically playing with five Pokemon against six if you run into an ever-common Tornadus-T + Dugtrio rain team. Sure, Torandus-T's hits can be sponged by your special wall. Yeah, Dugtrio is not that big of a threat in itself. But Ninetales will not be doing anything noteworthy other than attempting to bait Dugtrio against these archetypes. Ninetales is also setup fodder for many Pokemon, as Lum Berry can ensure that Toxic isn't problematic, while good prediction with Substitute vs Roar will obviously help out if Ninetales attempts to hit a sweeper with status. Yes, that's not an automatic loss, but this is just an illustration. As for my point and MoP's point about Heatran wrecking sun stall, you need to take into account that it won't be spamming Fire moves until it has hazards stacked up. This leads me to your point (and Lavos Spawn's) about blocking hazards.
Magic Bounce Pokemon all carry a similar trait—they're weak to Tyranitar. Ninetales is also not in for a favorable matchup against Tyranitar, and Cresselia, Chansey, Blissey, or pretty much any Pokemon that's not a physical wall is in for trouble. Of course a stall team will pack a physical wall, but let's look at the options. Gliscor is 2HKOed by Choice Band Tyranitar's Stone Edge provided that there is either a bit of residual damage or Poison Heal is not yet activated. Skarmory faces the same fate with, again, a tiny amount of residual damage. Forretress (who should never be used to wall a threat, you especially need your spinner on a sun stall team) faces this as well. Now you can bring up using Donphan. Donphan as a spinner is something I never really approve of. On sun offense teams (where it is usually found), Donphan compiles a weakness to Choice Specs Politoed and Choice Specs Keldeo, and Venusaur and Dragonite are generally the only Pokemon that resist Water-type attacks; these are shaky counters at best. On sun stall, Donphan does a lot of things that hamper the team. It has no reliable recovery outside of Leftovers and it is not very stable. Wish passing heals it up, okay, but that's not really as reliable as you'd like. However, this isn't really my problem with Donphan, a lot of spinners have the aforementioned problems. My qualm is that it brings a Water-type weakness. Temp V1, while you may only have one Pokemon weak to Water on your sun stall team, how did the rest of your team fare against Choice Specs Politoed? How did it fare against Choice Specs Keldeo? A lot of players find their Chansey and Blissey 2HKOed by Politoed after just a little bit of support, and that's pretty bad news because those are valuable assets.
Now let's talk about Chansey and Blissey. Both are definitely the epitome of special walling, and you are probably wondering why I said Tornadus-T beats sun stall. Well, on sun stall, our pink friends have to run a moveset of Seismic Toss / Wish / Softboiled / filler. Now keep in mind that Wish + Protect can be used over Softboiled but this method saves up PP. Also, Blissey can run Flamethrower but that's not as consistent as Seismic Toss. The filler is generally Toxic, Stealth Rock, or Heal Bell. If you run Stealth Rock, then that means you should probably be running it on something else instead. Chansey runs Stealth Rock on rain stall because for the most part, you don't want Ferrothorn or Skarmory using it, but I digress. On sun stall, you have Heatran or Landorus-T to do that for you, so let's discount that option. Toxic is definitely great, as it allows you to not be setup fodder. However, I think most people tend to run Heal Bell because it allows them to not have to worry about Cresselia, Ninetales, or whatever Pokemon you are using getting poisoned. Now this means that Tornadus-T can come in, and as MoP said, use Taunt and start firing off powerful attacks. What other Pokemon wants to tank these hits? Rotom-W is a bad choice on sun stall and generally Jirachi is too (though it can work), so Chansey and Blissey are really your only options here. When we take into account that Regenerator heals up Tornadus-T and that Chansey and Blissey can't do much to Tornadus-T in return, this is where an inherent problem lies.
Temp V1, can you post your sun team? Or is it a secret? I'm actually curious, as you say you've been able to deal with every threat adequately, yet inherently all stall will fall to some threat, be it Calm Mind Reuniclus, Substitute + Calm Mind Jirachi, Substitute + Swords Dance Terrakion, Choice Specs Keldeo, Taunt Tornadus-T, etc. Also, what is the point of using Ninetales? Is there no better Pokemon for that slot? Sorry this was so long, I probably left a few things untouched but I didn't mean to. I'm mostly tired of typing so I might as well let you all see my thoughts for now.