Originally Posted by Fat locoghoul
I don't understand Poppy's post. He says that although -in his opinion- OHKO are not broken or uncompetitive per se, he just doesn't like the possible impact on the metagame (aka stall may take a hit). I guess it comes down to preference but I remember when Mence got banned from GenIV's OU because most of the top players in the ladder played stall and Mence was too problematic for them.
Regardless of the outcome, I wish the newly formed council can at least make it seem like it's not a subjective decision ("I don't wanna lose against a random person because my Gira got OHKOed in one game out of eight, let's ban it so my stall teams can do ok").
Remember how stagnant GenIV was at the end of Plat. If no one is willing to adapt to certain things (note that I don't agree on unbanning ALL clauses) there is no reason to even test stuff.
We are currently testing, there is no reason not to post our thoughts so far, as by prompting discussion we can gain the community's experiences and perhaps be effected by point's we hadn't yet come across.
I thought poppy made a very objective point, by admitting that while OHKO moves might not be inherently broken, by their impossibility to be switched into by pokemon that can either take a hit from the OHKO user or even stay in for more than a turn or two, they make one playstyle much better than the other they lower diversity to a large extent, and make one of the most popular playstyles in the tier not worth playing consistently.
No one wants to ban OHKO moves because they "beat my gira-a one game out of 8", even though the odds of losing your gira-a after two
sheer colds is over 50%, and I personally have not fully developed my stance.
Your argument that the tier would become "too stagnant" seems contradictory in a sense. Currently, players make use of many, many different strategies, and they all seem similarly viable, with each possesing inherent advantages over the other. To allow the OHKO clause removed means you also remove that element of diversity, you make less appealing the defensive playstyle in general, which could easily lead to the stagnation you fear.
Originally Posted by Fat Antar
@syrim, what's this "online" thing that you were trying to hack in your second tab? :p
If OHKO moves *were* competitively viable, I would be in favor of NOT banning them. If Sheer Cold Kyogre was a reliable check to Sleep Talk Giratina or CM Arceus Steel, then I'd feel that there was some good that outweighed the stupid.
But as others have pointed out, phazing is much more of an effective strategy (in the case of Sleep Talk Giratina, note that the odds of you pulling off Sheer Cold are LESS than the odds that Giratina selects Dragon Tail), so the only time OHKO moves are going to be more "viable" is when your opponent is down to their last Pokemon, in which case you're winning or losing a match on hax.
Sadly, for stall to be able to beat pokemon like rest talk kyogre, they have to have an end game plan for it. Phazing repeatedly requires huge amounts of luck if Kyogre is running sheer cold, and even then you can lose if it is the last pokemon alive.
Roar Kyogre can be prepared for. If one can phaze it repeadetly, something like Gira-a or CM latias using any moveset can be sure of a win in the end, and of course Grass Arceus can as well.
Point in case it's not about the odds of a dragon tail hitting being superior to the odds of a sheer cold hitting, its about stall being able to maintain a win condition versus bulky OHKO users with status immunity and bulk (e.g. Excadrill, Gliscor and mainly Kyogre).