Originally Posted by Fat Lady Alex
Wish CM Jirachi is no more stall oriented than Sub CM Jirachi. At the end of the day, they both want to sweep your opponent's team. Disallowing set up moves that increase offensive stats would be an easy fix. Otherwise, we risk people being able to get away with something like "bulky offense."
This is false. SubCM Jirachi is a sweeper while physically defensive Jirachi with Wish and CM is a wall/supporter first and then a sweeper. And this is where the whole point resides i guess. I think that the best way to go for this project is to have a group of people trusted by the community to judge which stat-uppers should be allowed in the project based on which their main role is on the team. For example the main role of Curse Quagsire, Calm Mind Latias, and WishCM Jirachi is walling, and then comes sweeping. But Pokemon such as SubCM Jirachi and SubDD Dragonite are put in a team with the purpose to sweep, but they can also tank some hits when the need arises.
I also saw someone saying that there is the need for more stallbreakers. With the current rules every team is allowed to use one fully offensive Pokemon, stallbreakers included, which is enough to handle opposing stall teams. Hell many stallbreakers such as Taunt Mew or Sableye are not prevented by any rule so you can use them freely so i don't think that there is any issue here.
So, i want to ask, do we all agree that the main problem with the rules was that you coudn't run more than one Pokemon with stat-up moves?
And do you agree with the idea to keep the current rules but add the possibility to use a Pokemon that doesn't fit the rules in some special occasions, which will be viewed by members approved by the community?
Originally Posted by Fat Magma
Pocket, that was almost word-for-word my original suggestion to alexwolf. But after I thought about it, we have to include EV distribution (and maybe the held-item as well) because that's the only way to separate the CM sweepers (Keldeo, Latios, and Landorus) from the CM stall-breakers (Latias, Jirachi, and Reuniclus.)
You make great points alexwolf, so what if we were to simply things and just allow 2 offensive Pokemon with the limitations I suggested and Pocket's suggestion of banning the moves that increase 2 offensive stats? The new rules could look something like this:
Each team is allowed 2 offensive Pokemon
A Pokemon is classified as offensive if it meets any of the following criteria:
- has more than a total of 50 EVs in its offensive stats (Atk, SpAtk, Spd)
- has a stat-boosting move
- has an attack-boosting item
If an offensive Pokemon has a stat-boosting move, it can only have EVs in one offensive stat
Stat-boosting moves that increase two offensive stats at once are banned (Swords Dance, Nasty Plot, Growth, Dragon Dance, Quiver Dance, Shell Smash, etc)
If an offensive Pokemon has an attack-boosting item, it can NOT have EVs in any offensive stat (Choice Scarf is NOT included as an attack-boosting item)
Gato, I think we need a set of defined rules (rather than have 2 or 3 people say what's stall and what isn't.) The rules I suggested aren't complex at all - they just give the criteria of an offensive mon and put 3 limitations on them. But if most people feel that stall-breakers have no place on stall teams, then I'll gladly delete my post.
Your ideas are good but i don't think that they will work. For example a team consisting of SubDD Dragonite, SubCM Jirachi, and Bulky QD Volcarona would be legit with your rules, but it doesn't take a lot of thought to see that it isn't a stall team. I still believe that allowing only one offensive Pokemon in each team is the way to go, and make exceptions upon reviewing the Pokemon in question.
Originally Posted by Fat Kidogo
I also think perhaps one offensive pokemon should be allowed without limitations--I know my team, as well as many others, NEEDED a scarfed revenge killer. Obviously, this pokemon needs investment in its offensive stats. I don't know what you think about this, but 5 fully defensive pokes with one revenge-killer seems sufficiently stally to me.
Kidogo one offensive Pokemon is already allowed with the current rules.