Originally Posted by Fat Mr.lol
Wait what ?_? Rayquaza still is a powerful sweeper with access to wall breaking abilities matched by few, if any, pokes in the game! Multiscale Lugia gets OHKOed after Stealth Rock by Draco Meteor + ExtremeSpeed. Those lacking heavy defense investment face getting OHKOed by Dragon Dance boosted Outrage after Stealth Rock!
Genesect is pretty big, but its not impossible to play around. Tailwind lets Rayquaza pounce right around. Using Thunder Wave or Substitute lets you land a huge hit on Genesect which prevents it from revenging you. Scarf Palkia was a huge issue earlier, but that didn't stop this guy from dropping significantly in usage did it? You could even use Yache / Haban Berry if your desperate ;_;. Not to mention Gene has to switch in on Dragon Dance to kill Rayquaza, if it switches in Draco Meteor or Fire Blast or Earthquake or V-Create its as good as dead. It can't handle SD Rayquaza either, who literally mauls the bug with ExtremeSpeed (granted it needs to be weakened a good bit before being OHKOed).
Rayquaza's bulk doesn't do it favors, the only one who has any favors getting done for it is Arceus, but that guy lacks Dragon STAB. It lacks that Draco Meteor. The ability to destroy Ferrothorn in rain, boost its speed... they don't even have the same counters seeing as Dragon Dance Rayquaza smashes right past all of Extremekillers. Under the thinking a sweeper needs bulk to setup on its own would make Darkrai (although this guy does has Dark Void to help) and Mewtwo completely unviable, but that's not the case is it?
It doesn't contribute to synergy but it boasts things other Dragons could only dream off. Can Dialga fry Ferrothorn in rain? Can Palkia boost its Speed outside of Choice Scarf? Can Palkia even beat Kingdra in the rain? Can Latios spam +1 Outrage that OHKO 252 HP Arceus forms barring Steel who gets OHKOed by Earthquake anyway after Stealth Rock? I will agree life has gotten hard for it, but it is definetly usable.
I agree with most of what you said about Rayquaza's selling points, but funny you mention those Rayquaza sets... I'm not very fond of Twave, and I haven't used Sub Rayquaza this gen... but Tailwind is pretty interesting. I thought it was just a cool gimmick when Tobes was talking about it a while ago, but I have to admit, I've found it much more useful than it used to be just because its a massive "FUCK YOU" to Genesect, in addition to giving the team a bit of support. Here's the set from project Ubers.
Originally Posted by Fat Tobes
Rayquaza @ Life Orb
Naughty 252 Atk / 120 SpA / 136 Spe
- Draco Meteor
- Fire Blast
This Rayquaza is a bit of a mix-and-match of the Dragon Dance and Mix sets. Early game, it plays like a standard MixQuaza, nailing things with Draco Meteor for quick kills and then retreating. Lategame, it serves as a cleaner, using Tailwind to set up an Outrage sweep (hence the maximum Attack investment and Naughty nature). The EV spread guarantees that you outspeed Choice Scarf Terrakion with Tailwind in effect, but you can also of course opt for 252 Spe Naive so that Rayquaza is faster than things like maximum Speed Dialga early in the game.
Now, why would you use this over MixDDRayquaza? For one, Speed. Tailwind Rayquaza outspeeds very important checks to Dragon Dance Rayqauza, the most prominent being Choice Scarf Palkia, and to a much lesser extent Choice Scarf Terrakion. Additionally, it does not require as much EV investment to do this, meaning that it doesn't have to worry as much about splitting EVs, and can therefore perform its mix role relatively more effectively. I suppose the argument can be made that 252 SpA MixDDRay could work better, but it doesn't outspeed Palkia and has a weaker initial Outrage, which can be a big factor in stall match-ups. But the real
reason to consider this set over MixDDRay is that Tailwind also affects Rayquaza's teammates. Mixed Dialga and Choice Specs Kyogre are suddenly far more intimidating when nothing outspeeds them. Even if Rayquaza fails in its lategame sweep, there's a decent chance its teammates can pick up where it left off.
I tend to use V-create over Fire Blast though, and sometimes I use it with standard Mixquaza evs because I am a total speed freak. Of course, this won't sweep like Dragon Dance Rayquaza can, but it can be a cool niche set if you REALLY hate Genesect, and Tailwind can be a nice surprise move in general. As for normal sets though, Mixquaza is still pretty great. LO Draco Meteor actually does 68-80% to Naive Genesect (or 60-71% to Hasty), and with Stealth Rock, it's very easy to get it into the KO range of ExtremeSpeed, since Naive takes 19-23% from 4 Atk ExtremeSpeed (Hasty also takes 21-25%). I also have to admit that Genesect has been a pretty good teammate for mixquaza as well, just because Genesect's U-turn tends to attract stuff like Dialga and Giratina. Dialga has to be weakened of course, has it takes 67-80% from Draco Meteor, but Giratina obviously gets owned by that! Yes I realize that in this case, White Kyurem can do that except hit Dialga even harder, but I tend to find mixed Rayquaza easier to fit on my teams.
The other reason I still use Rayquaza is of course, the mighty V-create. I used to just use it on Mixquaza and SD Quaza... but honestly I even use it on Dragon Dance Rayquaza now. Yes... I understand that V-create tends to go against the entire point of boosting your Speed, but having a base 180 power attack that DOESN'T lock you in is something I still find extremely useful! It's also nice for when people try to wear you down with switching games from say... a Steel-type to Kyogre, since Kyogre still takes a pretty hefty amount from boosted V-creates! However, if you want to use V-create on DD Rayquaza, I advise using it with ExtremeSpeed, since this way you can still pick off weakened stuff like a low health Palkia after you lose your Speed.
As for people who find Rayquaza outclassed by Normal Arceus... while Normal Arceus certainly does better vs offensive teams, Rayquaza can still break through quite a few mons that Normal Arceus has issues with, such as Giratina, Skarmory, and slow Lugia in the case of SD Rayquaza. To be honest, I often find myself pairing the two together, because both are dangerous sweepers that can save my ass in emergencies with priority attacks! Also, I have to admit that sometimes when Genesect revenges my Rayquaza, I tend to like that, because I usually pair Rayquaza with Wobbuffet to help it set up, and a Scarf Ice Beam usually means I'm going to trap it bar the nasty freeze hax or having an extremely weakened Wobbuffet. Thanks to Custap Berry, I tend to revenge it now even Wobbuffet is near death too :P.
On a side note though, because Salamence got Moxie + DD + Outrage legal and is faster than Genesect, I do sometimes feel like that's actually competing with Rayquaza for my teamslots sometimes. However, Rayquaza's Air Lock, priority, and V-create are huge selling points to me anyways, so I still use Rayquaza a lot.
So overall, Genesect sure as hell isn't doing Rayquaza any favors beyond being a powerful mon to U-turn to, but it's still one of the most dangerous Pokemon to face in the game!