Originally Posted by Fat Zarel
QoR, you're still basically just arguing for an "intermediate" randbat, between the one I propose and Challenge Cup. You think Challenge Cup is too random, but the Random Battle I propose is not random enough.
I argue that this should really be the biggest difference between Random Battle and Challenge Cup. In Challenge Cup, you have wildly varying sets, but so does your opponent. On the other hand, in Random Battle, the idea is that both your teams are "good". I think Randbat OU is too restrictive, and honestly I think randbat minus NU NFEs makes a pretty good compromise.
In other words, in Challenge Cup, what team you have and how good it is are both random, but in Random Battle, what team you have should be random but how good it is shouldn't.
You're arguing that Random Battle needs to have "bad" teams to be fun, but I really don't agree with this. I argue there's a need for the exact tier I describe: "what team you have should be random but how good it is shouldn't", and I think splitting a tier over the one issue of the inclusion of NFEs seems unnecessary.
No, in CC you don't have "sets". You have fucking Attract, Tail Whip, Base 29 Hidden Power Steel, and Follow Me. I am arguing for a balance between CC and what you're suggesting: what we have. I like it. I don't understand why this is a negative thing. It's not "intermediate randbat", it's Randbats as I have come to know it.
Randbat OU is too restrictive. But it's what you want if you want a both teams to always be "good". When you dish out random Pokémon, they can never all be "good". It is the reason we have tiers: not all Pokémon are "good". I'm not arguing that you need "bad" Pokémon to make it fun, I'm arguing that they add another fun element of strategy to the game. The fact that all Pokémon are different inherently means that some are "better" than others. Removing NFEs doesn't add to the balance at all. There is no balancing Randoms without it being "too restrictive". You get Exploud, Luvdisc, Unown, etc. and you're at a disadvantage to your opponent who got Mewtwo. You're not fixing anything by removing NFEs, just limiting the pool of available Pokémon. Part of the fun of Randbats is being able to make good use of the Pokémon that are undesirable, and there are aways
undesirable Pokémon, so I'm not seeing why NFEs should have to leave.
It's not about having "bad" teams. It extremely rare you actually get a "bad" team. You have weaker elements to your team that you have to overcome/figure out how to use effectively. You act as though removing NFEs eliminates the potential for someone to get a terrible team, and it doesn't at all. When you remove NFEs and you're shit out of luck when you get a team of terrible NU mons, you're in the same exact position as when you get a team of NFEs, sometimes worse, as there are NFEs who perform better than shit like Luvdisc for sure.
I'm saying that you shouldn't remove NFEs because you're fucking with something to achieve a goal when it won't achieve your goal. the OU Randbats I described is the only way to reach your goal
, which from my understanding is to eliminate the luck factor in what Pokémon you get and make it more like competitive battling. Removing NFEs does nothing to aid that at all. It's still the same randbats minus part of what made it fun and a multitude of good Pokémon that it's cool to get a chance to use effectively.
"If it's not broken, why fix it?" does fit perfectly here, and it's certainly not a bad argument at the current moment. When the wheel was invented, there was the problem of trying to transport things/people more quickly. Fire was a lucky find that increased the quality of life; nothing was broken there. You're speaking of Randbats as though it is broken and needs fixing, and your suggested "fix" does nothing to repair the "problem", making it a fix on something that isn't broken, whereas modern medicine works to fix illness and the things that are improved without being broken actually achieve their goal of making the thing better (i.e. agriculture>gathering). Again, I think you just don't like Randbats
. It's like trying to repair your perfectly working car when in reality you just want a motorcycle. This is why I suggest a different tier. I'm not saying, "I need NFEs in my Randbats, so make a new tier." I'm saying, "I like NFEs in my Randbats, and your ideal Randbats is not created with their removal, so make your ideal Randbats, don't overhaul mine."
Relados is right; what's going to make Randbats better is making sure everything has a good set. Removing NFEs (especially now that some of them will get to utilize Eviolite!) is pointless in achieving your goal of a more balanced game. Everyone is failing to realize that your opponent has an equal chance of getting NFEs, so even if they were utter shit, it's not like they only screw you over. This is how I can tell the argument against them is people upset over those few times they got Caterpie and Metapod on the same team. If they were worthless, I'd say fine, go ahead and remove them, but they aren't, and I repeat, their removal does nothing for you, so why remove them? All it does is open more room for creativity.
Competitive battling is choosing a team full of the best Pokémon all running sets that compliment each other with type, offensive, and/or defensive synergy, all of whom fit inside a certain tier and where the mons too powerful for that tier are banned. You cannot
emulate that without it being super restrictive. You will never, ever get a teams of random Pokémon Uber-NU to always be competitive. People will always get screwed, people will always complain, and you will be ultimately unsuccessful in your endeavor to make all the teams the same level of "good" (pretty subjective).