We have the technology.
Join Date: Oct 2010
CAP 5 - Part 1 - Concept Poll 1
Welcome to one of the most important polls in the entire CAP process! Through this series of polls, we'll be voting as a community on which concept we'd like to pursue for CAP 5. Make sure to read through each concept thoroughly; it is imperative that you understand what you're voting for here. Our slate of seven concepts was chosen by our Topic Leader, jas61292, from the Concept Submissions thread.
This poll operates on instant-runoff voting
. This means that order matters in your votes
, but you may vote for any number of choices that you like. A typical vote might look like this:
Second Most Preferred
Third Most Preferred
If the voter wishes, he may post comments on his vote below the actual vote. Only the vote itself should be bold and none of the supplementary text should be bold.
Note that any posts that do not contain a vote will be moderated and the poster warned. If you feel compelled to say something in your own vote, you may do so, but please don't try to incite a discussion here. Keep discussion to the IRC channel, #cap, or to the voices in your head.
IMPORTANT: When voting, use only the name of the author!
The list of possible votes include:
This poll will be open for 24 hours
. The concept submissions are quoted below in order of submission.
Originally Posted by Fat Yilx
The Big Dipper
A wallbreaker that focuses on breaking your opponent's core through other means outside of brute force.
In the current meta, there exists many ways to "break" your opponent's core, through downright brute force through wallbreakers like Mamoswine or Specs Keldeo in the Rain. This mon specializes in dismantling your opponent's core and neutralize it.
Instead of using brute force, this mon breaks your opponent's core by neutralizing parts or all of it before they notice or by forcing your opponent into a situation that they have to sacrifice part of it in order to prevent themselves from losing the game.
We will be exploring if there be other ways to run a "Wallbreaker" outside of outright brute force. Maybe through status? Misleeading your opponent into a false sense of security?
Basically, it's a wallbreaker that does not utilize huge attacking stats with high powered moves to break through your opponent's team core, but rather through other means; by the time your opponent knows their core is broken, they are already dead.
Questions To Be Answered:
- What defines a "core"? Celetran, Toed/Ferro/Jirachi, etc are all considered "cores", but we do not have a standard "definition" for one. Is it just a triplet of Pokemon that work together very well in unison, or a pair that has perfect coverage on the meta?
- What defines "Wallbreaking"? Most think of this as just using things like Rock Gem SD Terrak to break through Gliscor or using LO Mamo to just punch holes in your opponent's walls in general. However, can we do more past that?
- How will a specific Pokemon get around rigid defensive cores or switch into strong offensive cores? Good typing and stats? Or perhaps a specific movepool that allows it to do both?
- Can we do this without turning the mon into "just another" setup sweeper? Or is that one good way of doing this?
- How will this Pokemon preserve it's "surprise" factor even when people prepare for it?
- Is there a way to cause your opponent to be "losing" without them knowing it? Like bluffing a Expert Belt Scizor as a CB Scizor through the match and setting up SD to get a clean sweep when the time is right?
For most teams, the moment a key mon in a specific core goes down, the rest of the team falls apart very easily because of their pivot or specific wall being gone. Because of this, most people would try to keep their core alive as much as possible; be it through good plays and prediciton or just using as much recovery as they can.
However, if there was a mon that specialized in taking these "cores" apart, people would have to prepare for it. However, preperation and guessing can only get one so far; not everything in a match will go according to what one predicts. Putting hax aside, surprise factors and gimmicks are called so because that is their limit. It will be interesting if there was a mon that could turn it's "gimmicks" into deadly ways to puncture your opponent's team.
The opponent's defeat will be sealed before they know it and the death star will be shining above their heads.
Originally Posted by Fat Base Speed
A pokemon whose presence in the metagame increases the usage of one or more underused types and simultaneously decreases the usage of one or more overused types.
Take a look at the OU usage statistics for January and you'll see that 9 out of the top 10 pokemon have either steel, water, dragon or fighting as one of their types, and extending it to the top 20 shows 16/20 with those types. We should also be asking ourselves why these trends exist so strongly and what can be done about them. In creating this CAP, we'd have to discuss in depth many different aspects of what makes a type and opinions can ultimately being tested in the playtest.
Questions To Be Answered:
- Is a types usefulness relative to the metagame or is it intrinsic? (Ie. Can any type be the "best" type given the right circumstances or do type match-ups, available STAB moves etc mean some types will always be better than others?)
- What exploitable weaknesses do "good" types in OU have? Are their currently pokemon that can exploit them and if so, how do they function differently to CAP5?
- How (if at all) will the targeted types adapt to the situation created? Will people choose different movesets, abilities, etc or will they just use them more/less? How is this linked to the way CAP5 functions strategically?
- What effects will the changes on certain types' presence have on the metagame?
- Which members of the targeted types will benefit and suffer from this most and why?
- By creating CAP5, have we learnt any new ways to counter good types or use bad types?
Types have many complex interactions to explore - not just with one another but with abilities (eg, Magnet Pull, Water Absorb), moves and field effects (rain, Stealth Rock, etc), and sometimes even trends in the pokemon with the type. What I'm trying to present is a clear destination whose journey leads to good discussion and analysis of a large aspect of pokemon, whilst still being enjoyable. I feel one of the main strengths of the concept is that it has a wide variety of potential implementations which will help to promote discussion and creativity. The idea of a "bad" or a "good" type is rife throughout all areas of competitive pokemon, with CAP being no exception, so it seems valid to explore it.
A lot of people have asked how I envision this working. The short answer is it depends on which types we decide to take down and up. However, some general ideas can still be given:
Obviously we would want CAP5 to have the right type match ups for the concept. Resistances or immunities to the types we want to take down and weaknesses to those we want to bring up are ideal but not mandatory. Immunity granting abilities are a valid option to patch up not-so-ideal type match-ups later down the line. Between the two, we'd probably be hoping to make moves of certain types less spammable.
Statwise, the build very much depends on what we're targeting as well as the previous steps, so it's difficult to say much. I would suggest decent special defense to prevent people utilising hidden power rather than pokemon of our "bad" types, but that's not a necessity.
Choosing to target certain types might require CAP5 to have specific aspects: for example if we try to bring down water then an anti-rain element would be worth considering and if we're trying to bring up a stealth rock weak type then looking into anti-hazard methods would be a valid option.
Obviously, we should be mindful of specific threats of the targeted type(s) throughout, but we tend to do that well anyway.
Note that I haven't specified how many types we should target. This is really important. One of the big learning opportunities will be when we decide how ambitious we think we can be, as this will provoke discussion on just how firm type dominance is and contribute a lot to answering my first question in particular. I don't want that to be missed because I've said "we should focus on X number of types". That's for the community to decide.
This concept shares some similarities with Mollux in that they both try to make "bad" typings "good". However, the learning opportunities of Mollux were very much focused on the build of a pokemon itself, opting to alleviate typing's weaknesses by combinations of ability and movepool. I'm trying to look more on typing in relation to the build of the metagame and and what new opportunities existing pokemon will have in the modified metagame, without the presence of certain types.
Originally Posted by Fat Korski
This Pokemon will be designed to fulfill two roles: 1) abuse one particular weather effect for a weather-based team, and 2) check or counter a particular opposing weather-based playstyle; however, the two roles will be mutually exclusive. Its build will focus on two of Rain, Sun, Sand, and Hail and on weather-abusing Abilities in order to best maintain an either/or dichotomy.
I think it's about time we tackle weather, and I think we should approach the weather wars from the inside. Picking off weather starters won't make their effects go away unless you've got your own weathermon waiting in the wings, so this concept will aim to work with weather as an understood presence in the BW2 metagame (which it is). The goal here is to create a weather-based CAP that can fit on a variety of weather-based and weatherless teams.
The two roles outlined in this concept are aimed at general approaches towards weather-based teambuilding: you need teammates to do work when your weather is up, and you need teammates to get momentum back in your favor when opposing weather is active. This Poke will be capable of both but only able to do one or the other with any given set. This way we can realistically approach two weathers at once without necessarily mandating any specific weather-starting teammates; it will be very educational to see which role becomes more desirable to players during the playtest. Keep in mind that this concept will still implicitly include the two weathers we don't focus on. I wouldn't be surprised if they get a boost from this concept as well, as they will most likely be able to foil whatever plan this CAP has (regardless of which role it chooses) by introducing an unfamiliar field condition, or will otherwise be able to take advantage of a weakened dominant weather (Drizzle).
Questions to be Answered:
- Which weather-based playstyles could use some extra help, offensively? Which weather-based playstyles need extra help to effectively check?
- How does weather control play into teambuilding? Is preparation required to confidently neuter an opposing weather team, or is superior gameplay enough?
- How will a Pokemon with such vastly different (and ideally, equally viable) roles to play affect strategy-making during Team Preview?
- Can the weather-counter side of this Pokemon give weatherless teams a better chance of controlling the field of play? What can weather checks like Gastrodon and Kingdra teach us about reacting to aggressive weather teams?
- Can the weather-abusing side of this Pokemon stack up against current threats? What can threats like Venusaur and Keldeo teach us about maximizing weather's advantages?
The scope of this concept is both broad and limited. I doubt we'll pick anything besides rain for the countered weather, but that doesn't mean we have to build something that beats Politoed and nothing more. Rain teams are known for their indestructible Steel-types, notably Ferrothorn and Jirachi, so this Poke could target them as a niche role. Good examples of the weather-counter aspect of the Concept would be Weather Trapper Heatran, Swift Swim Kingdra, and Latias. For the weather abusing side, I would say both Sand and Hail could use the most help, but Sun isn't out of the question. This aspect of the Pokemon would deal with synergy; we must consider current "standard" team builds and how to fit our CAP into them without it being outclassed or stacking up on common weaknesses. Excadrill would be a good example here for being an enormous threat in Sand but much more manageable under any other kind of weather. By simultaneously creating a nerf to one weather and a buff to another, we should be able to create a more balanced weather war or even turn it on its head.
I realize this concept is pretty similar to jc104's submission, so I naturally support that Concept as well and hope I distinguished my submission by comparison. The key difference I'd like to point out between the two is that Weather Balancer has a very broad scope and goal in mind that is probably excessive for a single Pokemon, while Weather Warrior has a unique focus that still (ideally) manages to affect the entire weather-based metagame without trying to actively equalize 5 very different playstyles all on its own.
Originally Posted by Fat Pwnemon
I was reading the OU "CAP discussion thread" and I noticed that there were two main things they wanted out of CAP5: 1) Weather control and 2) Hazard Control. The first has been beaten to death. The second?
A Pokemon who decreases the role of entry hazards in the OU Metagame.
When OU players are asked what needs to change about OU, the two most common responses are "weather" and "hazards." Especially considering that Deoxys-D is currently being suspected in the OU tier, it is clear that hazards are a hot-button issue. This concept addresses that in such a way that instead of just intensifying the hazards meta, it aims to dampen it. The main goal is to learn what strategies can be ported over to OU (aside from just another spinner) that will similarly decrease the importance of hazards there, potentially changing the metagame permanently. Perhaps the most interesting part will be to see how, if the concept is successful, the viability of Pokemon rise and drop according to how hazards affected them!
Questions To Be Answered:
- Ever since GSC, hazards have been incredibly valuable in virtually every battle. How do you, with the introduction of just one Pokemon, turn them into "not worth it?" By putting too much offensive pressure on teams to get the needed free turns? By checking many hazard-weak pokemon so hazards don't need to?
- A wide variety of Pokemon are capable of setting entry hazards; it stands to reason that this CAP should pack the heat for a lot of them but more importantly, it needs to threaten them even while not active, to put pressure on them. How can this be accomplished?
- Perhaps hazards are more crucial for a certain playstyle than for others. What playstyles? Why? Would the metagame be best served by making these playstyles obsolete and thus removing their presence and use of hazards, or by easing the situation for these playstyles so they are not so hazard-reliant?
- What threats suddenly become viable when the hazards meta is removed? How do teams best prepare for them?
This concept I'd been toying around with since CAP3 submissions, but it got fully fleshed out when I saw how much people in OU wanted hazards dealt with - almost as much as or more than weather, even. I've been told that my concept is a rehash of Colossoil's, but it was a good concept then, and applying it to a new generation with new threats where colossoil sucks and teaches us nothing it's a good concept now.
If we could, I'd like to get this concept done without making another Spinner, though I don't know if that's possible. However, there are plenty of ways to get this done. One I can think of would be to threaten many common setters of Stealth Rock and Spikes, probably with a typing resistant to those hazards. Mold Breaker would be nice, since the two largest Spikers other than Deo-D have Sturdy, to one-shot things. Maybe putting pressure on the opponent so they don't get free turns to Spike? The main thing to take away is that whatever Pokemon we make to counter the hazards meta, we can't port over to OU. What we /can/ do is take lessons learned about completely discouraging the hazards meta from even existing, and use those to our advantage in the future.
I understand completely where the detractors to my concept are coming from, so I've virtually revamped it. No longer is it about making an Espeon/Ferrothorn 2.0—its goal is now to actually reduce the importance of the hazard metagame in the tier. While most Pokemon with moves such as Rapid Spin actually /add/ to the hazard meta, its goal is to actively deter it. It should be a much more interesting concept to pursue now!
Originally Posted by Fat toshimelonhead
General Description: A pokemon designed to completely counter two or three strong yet completely different threats in the metagame and nothing else.
Justification: Instead of saying "True XXX counter", this concept would look at taking two or three very different threats as it is harder to build a pokemon specific on just countering a group of pokemon who each might not have any counters currently to begin with. Having a pokemon to uniquely counter two or three mons would provide great compare/contrast discussions, and if these mons were selected correctly, we could have some great discussions on creating a mercenary.
Questions To Be Answered:
How do you make something wall only two or three very strong threats instead of the whole metagame?
What makes a pokemon "uncounterable" or hard to check?
Is there a fine line between checking and countering?
Do you need to be a wall to counter something in BW2 or can you still be versatile enough to do more than just act as a sitting duck?
How do you balance defenses for a pokemon looking to wall threats from both the physical and special spectrum?
The idea for this came to me when trying to finalize the dreaded last spot on a team when there are just a few huge threats left to fill yet there isn't always the right mon to fill the spot. With the power creep in BW OU, it is very hard to find counters for some pokemon. S threats like Terrakion, Politoed, Landorus, and Deoxys-D come to mind, along with Keldeo. Other sweepers, like Volcarona, Dragonite, and Gengar are very devastating when used in the right hands. It is not unusual for a team to carry a specific counter for just one of these pokemon, leaving the team weak against either a playstyle (Sun, for instance) or trouble checking several mid tier threats. Ideally, this would take a strong physical attacker and strong special attacker and find a way to counter both in a way not currently available in the metagame at the moment. Even though this kind of sounds like Krilowatt, Krill failed in that it was a great counter of everything and we didn't focus on countering one or two specific threats. I think a more focused CAP could provide some great debates on countering some of the hardest pokemon to counter in the metagame today.
Originally Posted by Fat SlimMan
A Pokemon which, through all of its qualities, is able to abuse Substitute as well as possible, and in as many different ways as possible.
Substitute is a weird move. When you use it, you aren't attacking, you aren't healing, you aren't boosting, you aren't status'ing... It is truly in a category of its own. Additionally, Substitute is a move which has indisputably had a large impact on the OU metagame. It's easy to argue that Substitute single-handedly, or at least to a large degree, led to the banning of Garchomp, and later Sand Veil. Despite this though, I feel that it is a relatively unexplored move. This CAP will explore what makes Substitute so good in some scenarios and on certain Pokemon, while making it a lesser choice in others. It will attempt to reveal all the possible different utilities of the move Substitute, which no current Pokemon does.
Questions To Be Answered:
- Have all of the methods to effectively abuse Substitute been discovered already? Or can a Pokemon designed for the purpose find new ways to use this move?
- A Pokemon's ability and movepool clearly affect how well it can use Substitute, but how much of an impact can other factors, such as stats and typing have?
- Similar to the above, what is required for a Pokemon to abuse Subtitute well? Are certain "builds" of Pokemon simply better suited to this move than others?
- With the limitations of a single Pokemon (one ability, one typing, etc.), is it possible to create a viable set for the each of the many uses of Substitute?
- How much does the drawback of Subtitute (25% health) affect the cost/benefit of using this move? Does the drawback make certain Substitute-strategies nonviable all by itself?
- Which is more important to a Substitute user: minimizing the cost of the move, or maximizing the benefit? Does the strategy in which Substitute is used affect which is more important?
- Is there a best strategy for Substitute? (only on a single Pokemon could they all be compared) If so, what is it? Is there a worst strategy with Substitute?
There are a lot of uses for Substitute. Blocking status (SubCM Latias), Baton Passing it (SubPass Jolteon), stalling (SubToxic Tentacruel), using it as a buffer during set-up (SubSD Garchommp), easing prediction (Sub+3 Attacks Hydreigon), and that's just the tip of the iceberg! You've also got SubSeeders, SubPunchers, and a myriad of other Pokemon which use this move. But out of all the Pokemon who use Substitute, Breloom is the ONLY one which comes to mind who is able to utilize Substitute on more than one set (SubSeed and SubPunch for Breloom). I think that a Pokemon which could use Substitute in multiple different ways would be a very fresh and interesting addition to the OU metagame. When I was giving an example of Pokemon who abuse Substitute in different ways, just a moment ago, I tried to list the strongest example for each role that I could think of at the time. It would also be exciting for us to create a Pokemon which excels at using Substitute to the point where it could become the strongest at certain roles for Substitute.
I can imagine that this concept seems initially limiting: "Oh, so it's movepool has to include Toxic, Leech Seed, and a few set-up moves. It also has to have Poison Heal to negate Subs and a STAB Focus Punch". But given the versatility of the move Substitute, I think that we can be much more original than simply throwing together a bunch of moves which jive well with Substitute. Although the infinite possibilities of CAP make it a very creative process, I feel that the inherent quality of Substitute to have so many different uses would allow us to create a particularly creative one this time.
This also gives us an EXCELLENT opportunity to learn more about the role of unpredictability in a Pokemon's effectiveness. I've seen many people talk about how Pokemon like Jirachi benefit from having enough viable sets that you can't immediately counter it. This Pokemon would show us precisely how unpredictability can benefit a Pokemon, as its set would remain hidden even after using its first move (probably Substitute) most of the time!
Originally Posted by Fat reachzero
Setting the Pace
This Pokemon plays very differently against Pokemon slower and faster than it, exploring the concept of speed benchmarks.
Speed is one of the most defining aspects of a metagame. How "fast" or "slow" a metagame is largely defines the style of play and the usefulness of various moves, yet the concept of speed benchmarks remains largely unexplored. Pokemon fundamentally relate to other Pokemon on the basis of "faster" and "slower", and this concept would teach us about that relationship. Speed is a complex subject, since maximizing a Pokemon's speed is not always the best way to maximize that Pokemon's effectiveness, yet there are certain Pokemon that make such a great impact in terms of their maximum speed that they must be accounted for. Many Pokemon need to decide how much speed is enough, and understanding speed benchmarks will help us to understand that decision-making process.
Questions To Be Answered:
- How do the important speed benchmarks in a metagame get set?
- How do they react to new Pokemon that directly relate to those benchmarks?
- Which moves and strategies most greatly impact slower Pokemon?
- Which moves and strategies most greatly impact faster Pokemon?
- How does the utility of a tactic change based on the speed of the Pokemon involved?
A speed benchmark is the number that separates a slow-slow Pokemon from a merely slow one, a slow Pokemon from a midrange one, etc. For instance, Breloom and Politoed set the benchmark that no Pokemon of middling speed wants to dip below for OU at 263. In DPP, Tyranitar set this number at 245. Many moves such as U-turn, Baton Pass, and Substitute play very differently depending on the relative speed of the Pokemon and its opponent. Scizor is especially representative of this issue, as a slow Pokemon that commonly uses Bullet Punch and U-turn, both of which are moves that greatly impact and are impacted by Scizor's effective speed. Essentially, this Pokemon would tell us about the effect of speed benchmarks by playing very differently against Pokemon faster or slower than it, setting such a benchmark. The actual speed number is unimportant to the concept.
That about wraps things up. Hop to it, folks!