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Old Feb 13th, 2013, 3:57:05 PM   #16
TPO3
 
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the Frozen Tundra.
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I don't really get your reasoning, kokoloko. Snorlax has been used to check Raikou and Zapdos since Gen II, now it so happens to also be the best answer to Chandelure and you think that's bad because it restricts teambuilding? With that logic, DH Project players won't be able to succeed because Lax can't be used, right? I'm sorry, but that's how I understand your post, feel free to refute me later.
Chandelure is an incredible threat, mainly due to the fact that it gets some good switch-in opportunities on the most common Fighting-types which have to rely on Stone Edge to KO it, which in return can give free switch-in opportunities to another offensive mon such as Flygon. That by no means makes Chandelure overpowered, but I'll try to follow up a line of thought.
Yeah, Snorlax does also counter Zapdos and Raikou and stuff. However, so does SpDef Rhyperior. So does Nidoqueen. So does Porygon2. However, there is nothing else in the tier that counters Chandelure the way Snorlax does. Chandelure most definitely does restrict teambuilding because there is simply nothing else in the tier that can switch in as consistently. Zapdos and Raikou don't restrict teambuilding because they don't FORCE you to use Snorlax the same way that Chandelure does, you can use plenty of other options.

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60/90/90 defenses aren't crappy when combined with its good set of resistances and the fact that its low Speed allows it to invest in HP more easily. That 145 Special Attack could mean that it's an incredible wallbreaker and makes stall unviable for the thought that very few slower mons can take two hits and KO back, right? That was the reasoning used by many on Queen's suspect discussion for RU, a tier which has banned many Pokemon over the years in order to balance stuff, but ultimately decided on keeping Queen. Now I know that the playerbase is different and I shouldn't make comparisons, but try to think this: Queen is a powerhouse with an effective base 112 Special Attack when using Sheer Force-boosted moves, has many resistances similarly to Chandy but is immune to Toxic, Thunder Wave, and Life Orb recoil on top of that, while also resisting SR. Chandelure is much less of a threat to defensive teams, because even with that impressive 407 Special Attack stat, it takes full damage from all entry hazards, is hurt by Toxic and Thunder Wave and takes LO recoil, though it can use Pain Split to minimize that. So the biggest thing it has against defensive teams really is Trick and that massive firepower—which is still not enough in many situations—, because unlike Nidoqueen/Nidoking, it doesn't have to be attacked directly to be disposed of.

Now that that's out of the way, we should then look how Chandelure fares against Offense, since Stall can beat it without having to attack it—whether Stall is viable to begin with is another discussion.
Really? Stall will never have to attack against Chandelure? I find that very hard to believe. Kokoloko's team Kaleidoscope should be proof enough (like he said earlier.) Yeah, if the user of Chandelure is stupid enough to let you set up Stealth Rock, 3 layers of Spikes, and potentially get Toxic'd, I would agree that Stall isn't going to have to attack. However, like you can see on Kokoloko's team, you don't always get the chance to set up hazards without giving pokemon (see: Venomoth) free turns to set up. It's not just with Koko's team either. With offensive teams using pokemon like Froslass and Azelf to set up Stealth Rock/Spikes, they can just taunt you to prevent hazards from going up at all early game. you can use turns to get them up later, but you risk letting them set up. Also, Blastoise is pretty popular. It might not be the best pokemon in the world (In fact it is definitely used too much.) But it literally spins against whatever the hell it wants if you use foresight. If you pair it with something like Blastoise, it's going to keep hazards away pretty consistently. This, in addition to the fact that Specs Chandelure literally 2HKO's the meta. Specs HP Fighting even takes care of your Snorlax and Umbreon, so it will break down stall pretty effectively.

I do agree with most of the arguments of Chandelure vs Offense though. Chandelure isn't that fast, its typing doesn't let it take many hits, etc. Offensive teams (when built properly) also don't give Chandelure very many opportunities to switch in. I do agree as well with the fact that this metagame is offensively-based today. However, Balanced and Stall teams are pretty much forced to run Snorlax, and that creates some redundancy in the metagame. Just because the metagame isn't based around Stall and Balanced, i don't think we can just overlook them and say "the meta is offensive, so Chandelure isn't broken and therefore shouldn't be banned." I think Chandelure ultimately limits the pokemon we can use on balanced and stall teams (and to an extent, offensive teams even. You have to build them in such a way that Chandelure does not get any turns to switch in.), and that banning it would ultimately result in a more diverse and more fun metagame.
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