Originally Posted by Fat BrianFantana
Why would a Sunmon be necessarily a fire type? Also, just because we're trying to discourage a Type doesn't mean we can't use it for CAP 5; you say 'without using a Dragon or Water Type', but why shouldn't we? That's the kind of thing that can be covered during Typing discussion proper.
I also disagree that grass is 'one of the more common OU types' - its presence is fairly rare save for obvious threats like Ferrothorn and Celebi, largely because of what you go on to point out: it performs poorly against Dragons and Steels (which, if CAP 5 were to be a Sunmon, wouldn't matter too much; the type it would aim to sink would almost certainly be Water). Furthermore, Grass types might be 'actively disadvantaged by sun' in theory, but in practise a whole heap of existing grass types have abilities that benefit from sun, and it's existing pokemon that are important to this project - a Sunmon would encourage their presence, not discourage it.
You also need to be careful where you say that 'the usage of the CAP will be BY FAR the greatest contributor to the additional usage of underused types - no reason why it shouldn't count'. There are two huge problems with this - firstly, it assumes CAP 5 will be of the typing it is aiming to boost, an approach which has already been argued against persuasively elsewhere in this thread, and secondly, the aim of this concept is to boost the usage of existing pokemon within a typing. Raising the usage of the typing simply by slapping it on to a godly CAP and watching it impact the statistics is a sidestep.
Because Fire is the only type that really benefits from sun, maybe? This was assuming that the ability field was to be used for something else of course. If we can find another way around that I can see a whole host of different types being used.
Grass IS one of the more common OU types. It's in the top half as far as usage is concerned, which seems like enough evidence to me. It's only one behind fighting according to the approximate calculation near the bottom of page 1. While I don't think it's an especially GOOD type, that was not specified in the concept either. In fact, boosting a common but not good type seems to be boosting a type that is underservedly
overused, as in what most people mean when they say overused outside the pokemon world. That's the worst possible thing to do.
I think it's highly unlikely that we'll not be attempting to reduce the usage of water types. Using a water type is likely to increase the usage of water types. Simply replacing water types with other ones is also a massive sidestep, and doesn't even adhere to the wording of the concept. As far as I can tell from talking to people, they are not keen to use one of the three most used types in order to take on the other two. Again, that seems rather against the spirit of the concept.
However, to count the usage of the CAP as an underused type just allows us to do more with our CAP. It doesn't have to count equally, of course, but I don't see why we shouldn't boost a second underused type by using it, instead of trying to boost only one. I would strongly disagree with having only
the usage of our CAP raising a type. I agree - that is a sidestep of the highest order.
edit @ MCBarrett.
First of all, hail should not be in the running - it's a pretty weak style and would be tough to buff significantly enough to make a difference. I've always been a massive hail fan, and I've wanted to do a hailmon for ages, but now is not the time. As for the genesect thing, you've clearly never played in the blaziken metagame! Seriously though, genesect was a very strong sun mon, but that was largely because it was a very strong mon against everything - nothing we make is going to have a flamethrower that powerful without being a fire type. It didn't really mind too much which weather it was in too much, either.
For me, helping counters is probably inferior to being a counter. Obviously, we want to help out the counters as much as possible, but it's definitely not a priority.