likes his numbers
Join Date: Sep 2010
Strong as a Corsola
While I know I already posted on a few abilities, I would like to elaborate a bit more on a few. I really feel that a bunch of people are misinterpreting how we should be going about this concept and are failing to recognize problems for the concept where they exist. To do this, I would like to analyze three abilities by directly answering the questions asked by Korski. The three abilities I want to discuss, Flower Gift, Harvest and Natural Cure, I feel are very differentiated from one another and would serve as good general examples of how abilities should be looked at with regard to achieving our goals.
Considering CAP's typing, which aspects of our concept, direction, and/or threat list can be best addressed by an ability, as opposed to stats or movepool?
Well, to start off, I think the simplest answer to this question is that we should try and do something that cannot be done by anything other than an ability. Of course, that is easier said than done. While it might be obvious that Flower Gift is just a stat inflator for sun that could essentially be achieved by simply buffing up our base stats, it is also true that Lum Harvest or Natural Cure could be replicated in the movepool stage via Refresh. Moves in Pokemon are so diverse that almost all abilities can be recreated in some semblance by them. With that said, a Pokemon's BST is not bound, but its number of moveslots is. As such, I would first off look for Abilities that provide something that cannot be replicated by stats or by a move that otherwise has general utility.
When it comes to the specifics of this Pokemon, we want to make it so it is able to beat Latios and Latias, act as a pivot vs. water types, and otherwise help fill in a role on a sun team. Bar the possibility for something like Arena Trap, I feel the last of those will be best addressed by the movepool stage, and the former can easily be taken care of via stats. As such, I believe we would be best served by looking for abilities that help us work a a pivot.
While that is certainly not the only thing to take into consideration when choosing an ability, it is an important one, and when applied to the three abilities I want to talk about, is clearly a benefit for Natural Cure and, to an extent, Harvest, while it is a shortcoming of Flower Gift. Natural Cure is a wonderful ability for a pivot as any bad luck on a switch in, or mis-predict should the opponent use a status move, will not hamper your ability to function later in the battle. Harvest also has this benefit, to an extent, but only if you are running a Lum Berry. Flower Gift, on the other hand simply improves stats in sun. While this has other benefits I will address later, when filling a role as a pivot, it doesn't provide anything stats could not do, if it is providing anything at all.
To what degree does this ability encourage the presence of Sunlight? To what degree does it depend on Sunlight to be competitive? Does the ability discourage CAP's usage in rain?
Now, of all the questions here, this is the one I personally find least important. Our goal is not to make a Pokemon that is dependent on sun, or a Pokemon that can only function in sun. Our goal is to make a Pokemon that increases the size of Sun's piece of the usage pie, so as long as its existence improves sun more than it improves anything else, how well it is tied into the weather is honestly quite irrelevant. So, addressing it in this light, how do these three abilities allow CAP 5 to help out sun more than other weathers?
Well, this is where Flower Gift is the clear winner. Flower Gift is not just a strong ability when sun is out, it is absolutely monstrous. Respectable stats are boosted to massive levels. Large stats become astronomical. Flower Gift is arguably the strongest weather related ability in the game, so its existence on a quality Pokemon would clearly help sun more than any other weather.
On the polar opposite side of the spectrum we have Natural Cure, an ability that on its face has nothing to do with weather. It is for abilities like this, however, that I feel the question, as worded, fails to address what is truly necessary for the concept, as I talked about above. As I said for the first question, Natural Cure would help CAP 5 fill the role of a pivot vs rain, something sun really needs. While the ability itself has nothing to do with weather, the job it would allow us to preform is something that only sun really needs. Rain and Sand have Ferrothorn to pivot on Rain, and their own weather starters do not have any problem being their own pivot for Sun. While the ability itself does nothing to tie CAP 5 to sun, the overall Pokemon would still lean in that direction.
Harvest, is kind of in the middle, and yet I feel it has the most failings of the three. Indeed, it is almost the opposite of Natural Cure in that it on the surface appears to have a clear tie in to sun, but, when you look deeper, it fails to truly establish any real reasoning for why it would help sun. Sun would help it, sure enough, but that is not a goal we are interested in. Now of course, as mentioned earlier, with Lum Berry, Harvest can have a similar effect to Natural Cure. However, the difference here is that while for Natural Cure, what it does is not as relevant to other weathers, with Harvest, there are a plethora of other options you could use that other weathers cannot get elsewhere. Sitrus for constant recovery. Resistance berry for eliminating a key weakness the team struggles with. Now obviously, outside of Sun it is not as reliable an ability, but at 50% regeneration, it is still an incredibly powerful ability that can function almost anywhere. I won't say that this means it will not end up helping sun more than elsewhere, but the sheer versatility makes it virtually impossible to predict what it will actually end up being the best for.
How does this ability support CAP's capacity to act as a pivot, either offensively or defensively? How does it contribute to CAP's synergy with other sun-based teammates?
Now here is a big one. I already addressed the ability to act as a pivot above, so I am not going to reiterate that here, but when it comes right down to it, I think how these abilities allow CAP 5 to synergize with teammates is one of the most important consideration. Starting with Natural Cure here, I believe that it would do a wonderful job synergizing with its teammates. As mentioned for the previous question, pivoting successfully vs. rain is something sun teams cannot do very well. Our typing is already very optimal for this, as that which comes in on CAP will likely be the kind of thing Ninetales will be comfortable coming in on, and vice versa. The very fact that Natural Cure optimizes this role will allow it to comfortably fit in with its teammates.
As with the last question, Harvest has many of the same upsides as Natural Cure. It fills the necessary role, and thus can synergize well. However, this only remains true as long as it sticks to the pivot role via use of the Lum Berry. Once you start changing things up this role starts becoming less optimal and its teammates are not enjoying its presence as much. In fact, one of the things that worry me the most about this ability is the fact that for many of the possible sets, it will not really be concerned at all about synergy, and will focus more on self-optimization. The goal we have in front of us is to make a Pokemon that improves sun, and I worry that Harvest will turn this into a Pokemon improved by sun, rather than one that improves it.
Flower Gift, as usual, takes a different approach to things in that instead of focusing on being a pivot, it would be more apt to fill the role of a Special wall or bulky tank. Now, this is certainly something that sun could appreciate. The sheer power of this ability cannot be denied, and assuming its stats are halfway decent, it could turn into an absolute monster in sun that any team would love to have. However, as far as actually synergizing with the team, I don't think it really does all that much. It's not bad per se, but it's not good either.
Does the ability have potential to aid CAP in fulfilling or consolidating other roles necessary to the sun play style?
Finally, we have what I might consider the single most important question to address: how to consolidate roles. However, while that may be the most important question for this project, I'm not sure if we can look at abilities through this lens and still get an accurate picture. An ability can only really do one thing (or one thing at a time, in the case of Harvest), and unless this one thing is in stark contrast to the role our chosen typing plays, then ability alone will not address filling multiple roles. That said, I think this is the other place where Flower Gift shines above the rest. While our typing gives us the capability to threaten Latios and Latias, it does not give us the clear ability to come in on them, in contrast to the role of a water pivot that our typing already handles very well. With the awesome boosts Flower Gift provides, filling this secondary role as Lati counter becomes much easier.
Natural Cure, on the other hand, simply takes one of our roles and makes it more optimized. I don't think there is any problem with this, as I believe most other roles may be better addressed at other stages of the process, but it is something to be taken into account.
And last of all, Harvest is once again the middle option. It can focus on one role and leave the rest for other stages like Natural Cure. It can focus on artificially increasing bulk via Sitrus or a resist berry to make it a better wall like Flower Gift. Or, it could do something else completely unrelated.
Overall, looking at these three, I feel that the two most opposite ones, Flower Gift and Natural Cure are actually much more similar then they would appear to be. While the paths they take are different, they are focused on a necessary role, and both connect in deeply to something Sun wants and needs, even if it is in completely opposite ways.
Harvest, on the other hand, I feel tries to do way too much, and in the end falls short due to it. It can do almost anything we want it too, but much of the time what it does can be done nearly as well by other abilities that don't consume an item slot. At the same time, how it would end up working is highly unpredictable as its versatility is just so huge. It may have potential, but it also has a lot of downsides, and I feel it is really hard to tell where the positives end and the negatives begin.
Now, while this post may have addressed three specific abilities, my point with this was to show the kind of things that I believe are best for the concept. I'm hoping that the kinds of analysis here can be applied to more abilities, and I am in no way suggesting that these three are in any way special. In general, I'd say that the abilities specifically targeted at helping a single role would do us the most good in the long run, with those helping to pivot being preferred over the other roles as it is the most difficult to address during other stages. Additionally, abilities that are multifaceted and not centrally focused on a role we need are more likely to lead us astray as any roles it provides not specifically beneficial to sun have the potential to end up helping other playstyles just as much if not more.
As an aside, I just want to give a brief word on versatility in general. There have been a couple of posts recently saying "versatility is not a bad thing," and while I will not try and say that versatility is inherently bad, I want to caution people about this kind of thinking. You need only look back a single project to see what I mean. Too often have we said "It can only do so much at once. Versatility is not bad," only to have our creations run awry because of it. Versatility is not bad, but only if every option it has is not bad. We are only as strong as our weakest link, and if we give it one option that screws us up, then it doesn't matter how fine our other options were. Now this is not targeted specifically at Harvest, or anything else for that matter, but is just something people need to keep in mind. Versatility is neither a positive nor a negative. It is exactly as good as the options that it includes.
<jas61292> I record everything
<nyttyn> prove it.
<nyttyn> WHAT WAS THE VERY FIRST THING I EVER SAID IN THIS CHANNEL.
<jas61292> [06/02/12 | 12:43] <NyttyN> Huh what deo you know shelll smash did get banned
<nyttyn> well congratulations jas your stalker nexus has reached an all time high.
Last edited by jas61292; Feb 25th, 2013 at 6:02:24 PM.