Originally Posted by Fat alexwolf
I agree with most of the stuff being said here, however i have a little issue. Many people talk about Below or Above Average PS while wanting Attack similar to that of Ferrothorn. This means that the CAP will have base 80 Speed at most, which is something i don't really like. If we are slower than Latios then it has the option to 2HKO us with HP Fire in sun, with LO or Specs, no matter how good special bulk we have. The only way to avoid the 2HKO from HP Fire would be to have Amazing ST and not low tier Amazing. However, if the CAP has a better Speed stat than Latios it can take the first hit and then at least weaken or OHKO back, or just heal. We can give to the CAP enough bulk to take one Specs DM or Specs HP Fire after SR with only max HP (we will need to max Speed too) but we cannot give to the CAP enough bulk to take two HP Fire in sun without Blissey-like special bulk, creating an opening for Latios to take out the CAP before it even does something.
A good Speed stat would be very useful for the CAP, as sun teams are offensive by nature and appreciate fast pivots much more than slow ones. As Deck Knight said, speed is bulk, as the CAP will more often than not get to move first, lessening the need for huge special bulk, and as i said again fitting better in sun teams in general. And there shouldn't be any worry of making the CAP too offensive or whatever, as with mediocre Attack and bad coverage (which most of the community favors i think), as well as weakness to common priority (Ice Shard and Mach Punch) the CAP will be just fine.
I really don't think CAP5 should be outspeeding Lati@s - it would end up with waaayy more Physical Sweepiness than it needs for the rest of its threatlist in conjunction with the kind of attack it's going to need to actually be an immediate threat to Lati@s, and it would also outrun Ninetales, which would be a big issue - if offensive Ninetales can outspeed and 2HKO it's still a threat, which is what we want. Furthermore, remember that its movepool potentially includes Sucker Punch, which mitigates the problem (especially against a Choiced opponent) and Pursuit, which compounds the threat of Sucker Punch bigtime.
Do you have an argument against the kind of enormous Special Tankiness you think CAP5 would need if it wasn't outspeeding the Latis? I believe that the only upper limit CAP5 needs on its Special Tankiness is for timid offensive Ninetales to 2HKO with Fire Blast 100% of the time - including Harvest/Sitrus variants after rocks (this means that its Sun-Boosted Fire Blast must do a minimum of 56.25%, or 62.5% without rocks). I've been toying with some calcs and spreads and this figure is fully reconcilable with stats that let it tank Dracos for 3HKOs and, for Sitrus variants, HP Fires. So going by my calcs I would suggest a Special Tankiness in the 'amazing' range with an absolute
maximum of 264, after which point Ninetales isn't 2HKOing Sitrus runners even with Stealth Rocks up. Of course, 264 is rather ludicrous anyway, so I would advocate a range of 225 - 250.
I agree with the general consensuses that Physical Tankiness should be below average (70 - 90 for me). Fortunately our threatlist is rather well divided - many of our intended threats are physically offensive and most of what we want to threaten attacks specially. There are only two things that we majorly want to have threatening CAP5 that predominantly attack Specially: Ninetales and Volcarona. I've already detailed how we can have massive special tankiness and still die to Ninetales; I'm pretty sure I don't need to do the same for Volcarona, who is clearly going to OHKO with a Bug Buzz.
I agree that Special Sweepiness should necessarily be unusable, else we might see it running sun-boosted HP Fires to 2HKO Scizor. Physical Sweepiness is much more complicated as it covers both Speed and Attack, and as Deck Knight said, Speed is really a defensive consideration. In general though, the kind of speed we would need to consistently outrun Toed and the kind of attack we'd need to be a meaningful threat to Latias would probably result in a Physical Sweepiness anywhere between 'above average' and 'good - I would suggest broader limits here to facilitate consideration of Speed and Attack more separately, so 100 - 150 seems sensible to me.