Would we want a Stealth Rock suspect test? [Read #196]

What do you think about a SR suspect test?

  • SR should be suspected and is most likely broken

    Votes: 90 17.8%
  • Could be useful, even though SR might not broken

    Votes: 165 32.6%
  • Probably not worth it, even though SR might be broken

    Votes: 59 11.7%
  • SR should not be suspected and is most likely not broken

    Votes: 192 37.9%

  • Total voters
    506
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Sapientia

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I'm pretty sure Lady Alex never implied that and you're just making a generalization about the other side of the SR Test argument. And a move really isn't an "integral part of the game" in the same way that Pokemon types or held items are, or at least it shouldn't be Also you have to be kidding with the "I'd rather have Bloo or KG speak" than Undisputed, BKC, Heist [etc], I don't really get the logic to that argument unless you're basing it off the fact that they are/were staff members at the forum? I'm pretty sure that Lavos's list of players are as good as Bloo or KG are and their opinion probably would be as worthy as Bloo or KG's but then again there you go with ridiculous responses. Kinda find it hard that you're serious here...
This is anyways the most ridicolous argument I've ever heard.
With this logic, we should not be discussing here

I don't really think SR are "op", because hazards can't really be op. But in fact they are centralizing and have a major impact on the metagame. No one can tell us, if this impact is good or bad, so I would not mind testing it, but I don't think, that this is really needed.
 

Honus

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This is anyways the most ridicolous argument I've ever heard.
With this logic, we should not be discussing here

I don't really think SR are "op", because hazards can't really be op. But in fact they are centralizing and have a major impact on the metagame. No one can tell us, if this impact is good or bad, so I would not mind testing it, but I don't think, that this is really needed.
i'm sorry it sounds 'ridicolous', man :pirate: maybe i worded that badly but how does that constitute to us "not discussing here"

i agree that sr isnt op but integral means "essential to completeness", and we've already seen 3 complete metas in past gens played without sr lol so surely it isn't essential
 

Meru

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Honestly though, curtains has a point. I feel like those wanting a SR suspect test don't think it's broken, they're just itching for change to break out of a stale metagame. To test SR would change pretty much every facet of BW OU, UU, RU, and NU in a way that would probably take a year just to stabilize.
 

Sapientia

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i'm sorry it sounds 'ridicolous', man :pirate: maybe i worded that badly but how does that constitute to us "not discussing here"

i agree that sr isnt op but integral means "essential to completeness", and we've already seen 3 complete metas in past gens played without sr lol so surely it isn't essential
Sorry, if you got me wrong.
I meant the fact, that we shouldn't say X says Y, so that's true. We could just let Bloo/KG/we discuss, if that's how we discuss
 
Honestly though, curtains has a point. I feel like those wanting a SR suspect test don't think it's broken, they're just itching for change to break out of a stale metagame. To test SR would change pretty much every facet of BW OU, UU, RU, and NU in a way that would probably take a year just to stabilize.
I honestly don't think it's fair for the pro-suspect side to be generalized like that. I cant speak for anyone else but I honestly believe that Stealth Rock is unhealthy for the metagame. It's so restrictive to the types that are weak to it. So many pokemon have a chance at changing tiers if this one move were gone. I do happen to think the metagame is stale but that's not my reason for wanting to suspect Stealth Rock. It is one of my reasons for going after drizzle however. (That and IMO it's broken as all hell -_-)
 
Okay, put it this way. I have only now been playing competitively for 5 months. However, in that time I battled predominantly OU and have felt the fury of Stealth Rock to its fullest extent. With that said, I cannot put it either way with utmost confidence, however I feel that a suspect test is the best way to go. I have used Volcarona (and still do in Smogon Doubles) and doing so has had its ups and downs. Regardless of the usage of Stealth Rock in the match (which, by the way, I have never felt the need to use) Volcarona has done just fine.

In conclusion, yes, I would love to see a SR suspect test. Thankfully, it doesn't feature much in Doubles but it basically plagued every other tier I played in. Of course, as I previously stated I've only been associated with Pokemon for the current generation and I have never been remotely entertained by the possibility of a weather team, or the idea of wasting a moveslot on SR or Rapid Spin. That's why I want to see how the rest of the players, as well as the metagame, adapts to not having the luxury of potentially cutting an opponent's HP in half on each switch.
 
Ignoring the rest of your post, I just want to say something about this point. Pokemon don't "deserve" to be in any tier. Pokemon have no "right" to be in a specific tier. They have to prove their strength and ability to be there. This is fundamental to tiering, as otherwise we would move Pokemon among the tiers on subjective whims. Your first statement is blatantly untrue. In fact, I doubt either would be OU even.

Addressing this thread as a whole, I believe that Stealth Rock is at this point an important part of the metagame. It serves to neuter some threats and bolster others. The two balance out. It's not like both sides don't have access to Stealth Rock and methods to remove it.
For the record I actually never said that and have no idea why my name is there. I agree with you 100% though.

I'm curious, for those who want the ban, is it really worth it? At this point the Gen V metagame has five or so more months before Gen VI arrives and makes the current metagame obsolete. Sure, people will still play it, but it's more likely these are people who already enjoy Gen V, with or without SR. If we do decide to ban it, we have a very short amount of time to deal with a lot of drastic changes before October when -let's be realistic here- few if any people will stick around while the majority is toying with everything new that Gen VI will bring. Then there's Smogon Tour, etc., which screws things up even more because people will be forced to relearn an old metagame. Do we have the time and resources to fix a metagame nearing the end of its run after such a drastic ban? And if you believe that we do, is attacking SR really the best use of that time?

they arent...i'm not gonna name names but it's like 2 in favor 2 against 1 on the fence
Meh. If the council is divided on weather, which is far more suspect-worthy IMO, then I wouldn't have any hope for an SR suspect test. A ladder without SR, however...
 

Halcyon.

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they arent...i'm not gonna name names but it's like 2 in favor 2 against 1 on the fence
God damn it. Fine, I don't really care one way or the other if SR gets tested. It'd be cool to play in a meta without it. When I say that though, I mean it in the same way that I think a zombie apocalypse would be cool. I want it for a little while until I realize how terrifying it is and then I want everything to be the way it was before. If we do suspect it, it'll be a fun month. But if I'm able to get requirements (lol, yeah right), I'll vote to keep it, I'm sure.
 
SR should have been suspected years ago IMO. People argue that it would change the meta beyond recognition to remove it - does no one else consider this fact to be slightly embarrassing?

It's been permitted to embed itself so firmly in the metagame, to dictate its evolution so fundamentally, that the thought of it being removed now seems impossible.

Also, arguing against the mere consideration of any piece of legislation based on some theoretical assessment of the practicality of its implementation (even before the potential value of the legislation has been properly evaluated) is something I find extremely sinister. This happens in the real world all the time, and it blocks democratic progress and change.

Don't get me wrong, I like SR, but I really think the community would be failing itself not to test it.
 
The suspect should be done, I think that most questions about "Should a suspect be done" are actually a cry for testing and on by itself. You don't see this kind of topic with Metagross or things that obviously don't work, and suspect testing doesn't equal banning in any way or form, this mentality about the taboo on suspects should be entirely abolished from the roots of the tiering system.
 

Jukain

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The suspect should be done, I think that most questions about "Should a suspect be done" are actually a cry for testing and on by itself. You don't see this kind of topic with Metagross or things that obviously don't work, and suspect testing doesn't equal banning in any way or form, this mentality about the taboo on suspects should be entirely abolished from the roots of the tiering system.
I hate it when people bring up this as a point. The bolded statement is entirely false. Anything with enough notoriety is likely to get banned. See: every ban this generation. You can't honestly argue that Pokemon like Excadrill weren't bandwagoned into a ban. Suspecting at this point is basically a death sentence. We suspect things because they are thought to be broken, not because a metagame without them sounds "fun" or "interesting."
 
What about having the very first Suspect Test of Gen VI - assuming SR won't be nerfed - being Stealth Rock?

That would mitigate the issue of not having enough time imho.
If SR gets nerfed, it will be a different case obviously.
 
I think the main question is: How do you tell if SR, in itself, is broken? How do you differentiate its effects from the Pokemon, such as Volcarona or D-Nite, or items, namely Focus Sash? If, for example, it turns out that without SR, D-Nite is the ultimate Pokemon, and Volcarona is a must-have on every team, what would you do? Ban the Pokemon, or keep SR? I feel this is a big issue for testing SR.
 

Jukain

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What about having the very first Suspect Test of Gen VI - assuming SR won't be nerfed - being Stealth Rock?

That would mitigate the issue of not having enough time imho.
If SR gets nerfed, it will be a different case obviously.
I just want to note that there will undoubtedly be much bigger issues to deal with at the beginning of XY. To get a stable metagame, we had to ban a few things before we could even get into more subjective tests (this time being R1 - R2/R3).
 
I hate it when people bring up this as a point. The bolded statement is entirely false. Anything with enough notoriety is likely to get banned. See: every ban this generation. You can't honestly argue that Pokemon like Excadrill weren't bandwagoned into a ban. Suspecting at this point is basically a death sentence. We suspect things because they are thought to be broken, not because a metagame without them sounds "fun" or "interesting."
I know it is, but it doesn't have to be that way, I know it was before my time, but there was a time when a suspect test could be done just to see the effect on the metagame and not necessarily see if it will be allowed in the meta / banned. If that was the kind of suspect we saw, I would be fine with it, but from the last few suspects, I think it will unlikely end up like that.
 
I think the compromise here is to have "no rocks" in Other Metagames, and see what happens. Obviously removing stealth rock is going to change tiering, with some UU shifting up to OU and potentially some OU sliding up to Ubers. A no rocks side meta would allow us to see what this game looks like as it matures over time.
 
I hate it when people bring up this as a point. The bolded statement is entirely false. Anything with enough notoriety is likely to get banned. See: every ban this generation. You can't honestly argue that Pokemon like Excadrill weren't bandwagoned into a ban. Suspecting at this point is basically a death sentence. We suspect things because they are thought to be broken, not because a metagame without them sounds "fun" or "interesting."
I respectfully disagree. Of course banned things went through suspect, but there are supects that weren't banned as recently as Keldeo. So its no death sentence and it shouldn't be seen as such, this kind of paranoid thinking gets in the way of actually sensible testing because people are thought incapable of doing reponsible decisions from the get to go.

Which is ridiculous.

We need a more serious definition of what can go to suspect imo, so people don't argue about things not being broken and they don't theorymon the way out of an obvious testing subject.
 
I believe that Stealth Rocks(SR) should stay because they have been around for a while if its just now getting brought up to the attention like this then it is fine.But if SR gets banned or w/e what stops it from reaching out to other Hazards Spikes and Toxic Spikes.So to my opinion SR should be left alone.
 

Codraroll

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.But if SR gets banned or w/e what stops it from reaching out to other Hazards Spikes and Toxic Spikes.

Dealing the same damage throughout a match is a lot harder with Spikes or Toxic Spikes than with Stealth Rock.

Spikes need several turns of setting up to deal any significant damage, whereas Toxic Spikes don't require Rapid Spin to be removed - just switch in a Poison user. Spikes also don't discriminate - they deal the same amount of damage to anything they hit.

Stealth Rock provides a single-turn, powerful field advantage that can only be nullified by one move, and having it on the opponent's side of the field will never be risky for the user (unlike weather, Baton Pass or Ingrain/Aqua Ring, which are beneficial, but all can be turned to the user's disadvantage by a clever opponent).

If a user lacks the single (badly distributed) move required to remove Stealth Rock, and the opponent sets it up in turn one, it will often deal more damage through the course of a match than a move such as Earthquake or Fire Blast would - it's just distributed over several turns and several Pokémon. That's a pretty good damage output for a single-turn move with 100% accuracy and no backlash (such as stat drops, recoil, etc).
 

haunter

Banned deucer.
Although it's not a priority for the council, before Pokemon X\Y come out, we'll set up an (informal) stealth rock-less ladder so that we can have an actual idea of what the metagame looks like without the premier entry hazard in the game. According to the results of this test and to what the new games bring to the table, we might take a different approach in regards to SR for the next generation of Pokemon.
 
It seems like most people here don't understand. Just because there is possibly a sr test, does not mean its going to be banned. Therefore just by having a suspect test does not mean we're going too have to repair the metagame.
 
I don't really mind if there's a test or not. I don't think it's broken, but like with having all Pokemon unbanned in OU at the start of the generation, I always hold the stance that there's no harm in a test. Usually people worry that it just wastes time, but I don't understand why that's a problem.

However, with regards to types, it doesn't matter about Stealth Rock. There's always going to be some types which dominate OU and other types which suck. It's like in RBY how Psychic types were amazing and Fighting types were awful. That wasn't because of Stealth Rock, it's just how things happen. Now we have Dragon and Steel which are amazing and Ice and Poison which are awful. Without Stealth Rock we'll still have the same problem with regards to some types of Pokemon being largely unviable.

And in other tiers it's a different story. There's Ice and Fire types which are really big players in some other tiers (because all the ones left behind have really high stats compared to the rest of the metagame), and there's metagames almost absent of Steel and Dragon types (because they're all in OU). And these metagames still have Stealth Rock in them.
 
Well, it would make more Pokémon more used (SP Charizard, Ho-oh, Volcarona etc). It would heavily change the metagames. More Ice/Fire type usage
 

jc104

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Although it's not a priority for the council, before Pokemon X\Y come out, we'll set up an (informal) stealth rock-less ladder so that we can have an actual idea of what the metagame looks like without the premier entry hazard in the game. According to the results of this test and to what the new games bring to the table, we might take a different approach in regards to SR for the next generation of Pokemon.
Very sensible, thanks! One thing though: is there any possibility of banning focus sash on this ladder, because frankly it would be unbearable? I wouldn't want to guess about anything else, but Focus sash is annoying enough as it is.
 
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