Pyroak Playtesting

[Hyra]

Originally Posted by Fat tennisace0227

Gliscor is scared to come in unless you're positive Pyroak doesn't have HP Ice.

Gliscor is scared to take STAB Grass Knots (unless I am misjudging his weight and he takes only 20 or 40 BP ones).

[eric the espeon]

I have found this set:

Pyroak@leftovers
252 HP/16 Defense/240 Sp. Defense
Bold
Leach Seed
Toxic
Flamethrower
Synthesis (Rest could go here if you are paranoid about weather or status)


to be extremely effective, Leach Seed+Toxic means it can stall out all the normal walls and tanks, as well as those sweepers that can't do >60% (50 from Synthesis+6% from leftovers+at least 4% from Leach Seed, though it is often more) to something with 444 HP and 275 in both defenses.
You can't leave it in on something with a very powerful SE attack (however it does take <50% from a CB Dugtrio's Stone Edge, so weak SE attacks are fine) or a ridiculously powerful STAB attack (something like Adamant CB Chomp Outrage would be a 2-3 KO with Leach Seed from what I have seen) but it will out stall a good portion of Pokemon if played right.
Flamethrower is mostly to give you something to do against opponents after setting up LS and Toxic.
The way it plays reminds me of.... Leach Seed Ludicolio with MUCH higher defenses, STAB Flamethrower, an Ability that means it can't be crited, and a decent recovery move but without Swift Swim or STAB Surf.
This thing is NOT destined for BL, and will never be. It is not ultra top class OU to near broken like BU Revenankh (Pyroak is actually a decent counter for BU Revenankh), or TG Syclant, but it is a great choice for a tank.

[TekkenStorm]

Eric is right, this set is the best thing Pyroak has to offer because unlike most of the other sets this one has been tested and works greatly but its very Heatran weak.

[eric the espeon]

Well if I use Leach Seed on the switch to Heatran, only Specstran can beat me, and I don't think its an 100% counter.
Also I have my own Heatran so once they lock themselves into FB I can get a FF boost for free.

[Mekkah**]

It's Leech Seed. Not Leach Seed. f_f

The fact that Heatran can come into an opposing Heatran's Choice Fire move has nothing to do with Pyroak. It's a problem as well as a positive for Heatran himself.

[Raverist]

HEY GAIZ GUESS WHAT!

Pyroak's actually pretty good in terms of Choice Band.

Leseehere...with this set here...

Pyroak @ Choice Band
80 HP/252 Att/176 Def
Adamant
Rock Head
-Wood Hammer
-Flare Blitz
-Brick Break
-Return/Overheat

...then this guy really kills stuff. He can take a single-DD'd Waterfall from Gyara with plenty to spare, about 45%, and can do about 60% with Wood Hammer, a 2HKO if he's not Intimidated. The same move annihilates Tyranitar and Suicune, nevermind Swampert, and one could even say that WH is likely his best move.

Flare Blitz hasn't been heavily tested, but he does 2HKO Heatran with Brick Break, and likely Blissey as well. Return's a filler, though you can opt with Overheat if you don't feel like spamming FBs on Skarm. I'll do some proper testing shortly with his CBoak set and give a proper summary.

[Blu]

Originally Posted by Fat phalanx

give it EQ it ends up broken. water, bug, ice, fire and ground all types that are neutralised by its typing, only pokemon it cant dent is heatran

With 0 EVs in attack, and a - nature(not to mention 70 ATK base) EQ will barely do anything even if it's super effective. I'm still mad how we didn't give this Pokemon EQ when it doesn't make any sense for a Pokemon this large. Without testing, we already assumed "OH THIS IS GOING TO BE BROKEN BECAUSE ITS SUPER EFFECTIVE AGAINST ITS COUNTERS" FFS Garchomp can learn Fire Blast and heck its Sp.Atk has an 80 base.

Ok let's see one of its moveset...

name: Tank
move 1: Leech Seed
move 2: Lava Plume / Flamethrower
move 3: Rest / Aromatherapy / Earthquake lol
move 4: Grass Knot
item: Leftovers
ability: Battle Armor
nature: Bold
evs: 252 HP / 136 Def / 32 SpD / 88 Spe

EQ against 252 HP Tentacruel: 38.19% - 45.05%
EQ against 0 HP/0 DEFHeatran: 58.51% - 68.73%

BUT THERE ARE NO SAFE SWITCH INS!
of course there is, you just need to use your brain sometimes aka prediction

Scenario Example#1
Pyroak vs. Heatran

Heatran come back! Go Skarmory!
Pyroak used EQ. It doesn't affect Skarmory...
Skarmory come back! Go Heatran!
Pyroak used Lava Plume! Flash Fire activated

Scenario Example#2
Pyroak vs. Thyplosion

Thyplosion come back! Go Salamence
Intimidate lowered Pyroak's Attack!
Pyroak used Earthquake. Salamence Loled!
Salamence come back! Go Tentacruel!
Pyroak used Hidden Power! Lol damage!
Tentacruel used Toxic Spikes/Sludge Bomb/Toxic!

Moving onto my point, it's not worth putting EQ in any of its moveset(Unless it's a Choice Set) as it kills its main purpose as a bulky Sp.Attacker(?) So for the sense of it, put EQ in.

HEY GUYS LETS MAKE A POKEMON WITH HUGE LEGS AND NOT GIVE IT ANY KICKING MOVES COS I THINK IT'LL BE BROKEN

[Hyra]

uh....

tanks are supposed to have safe switchins?

what if blissey/cresselia could 2HKO anything swithcing into it? that would be called uber.

[Blu]

Pyroak's not even a full tanker.

[tennisace]

Originally Posted by Fat Blu

With 0 EVs in attack, and a - nature(not to mention 70 ATK base) EQ will barely do anything even if it's super effective. I'm still mad how we didn't give this Pokemon EQ when it doesn't make any sense for a Pokemon this large. Without testing, we already assumed "OH THIS IS GOING TO BE BROKEN BECAUSE ITS SUPER EFFECTIVE AGAINST ITS COUNTERS" FFS Garchomp can learn Fire Blast and heck its Sp.Atk has an 80 base.

Ok let's see one of its moveset...

EQ against 252 HP Tentacruel: 38.19% - 45.05%
EQ against 0 HP/0 DEFHeatran: 58.51% - 68.73%

BUT THERE ARE NO SAFE SWITCH INS!
of course there is, you just need to use your brain sometimes aka prediction

Scenario Example#1
Pyroak vs. Heatran

Heatran come back! Go Skarmory!
Pyroak used EQ. It doesn't affect Skarmory...
Skarmory come back! Go Heatran!
Pyroak used Lava Plume! Flash Fire activated

Scenario Example#2
Pyroak vs. Thyplosion

Thyplosion come back! Go Salamence
Intimidate lowered Pyroak's Attack!
Pyroak used Earthquake. Salamence Loled!
Salamence come back! Go Tentacruel!
Pyroak used Hidden Power! Lol damage!
Tentacruel used Toxic Spikes/Sludge Bomb/Toxic!

Moving onto my point, it's not worth putting EQ in any of its moveset(Unless it's a Choice Set) as it kills its main purpose as a bulky Sp.Attacker(?) So for the sense of it, put EQ in.

Look, it wasn't given EQ because Tentacruel and Heatran were supposed to be safe switches. Also, if you COUNTER PREDICT in example one, the smart thing to do is to EQ again to hit the incoming Heatran. In example 2, you should switch, and go to your Tentacruel check/counter. Earthquake is needless and borderline broken. This thing shouldn't be able to 2hko it's checks with SR down.

[Blu]

I don't think we should only focus on Tentacruel and Heatran.

A couple of counters even with Earthquake:
- Rain Dance Team
- Sandstorm Team
- Tyranitar(without Grass knot)
- Moltres
- Charizard
- Muk
- Stockpile Swalot
- Gyarados(without a Grass move)
- Salamence

[Hyra]

Originally Posted by Fat Blu

I don't think we should only focus on Tentacruel and Heatran.

A couple of counters even with Earthquake:
- Rain Dance Team- Yes... okay being forced to run a certain team is not a counter
- Sandstorm Team - See above
- Tyranitar(without Grass knot) - Does it like Toxic and any set that doesn't have Toxic will have Grass Knot? And does he like EQ?
- Moltres - HP Rock
- Charizard - See above
- Muk - Earthquake, duh!
- Stockpile Swalot - See above
- Gyarados(without a Grass move) - See Tyranitar
- Salamence - Depends on how much HP Rock does.

You forget that with Earthquake as an option you can run Fire Blast/Grass Knot/Earthquake/HP Rock. This gives it perfect coverage. Sure, you can wall this set by switching, but you can do that to most mixed attackers.

A Pokemon can be good without having no counters.... Sheesh just because it can use a move doesn't mean it gets it. Flareon and Flare Blitz, I rest my case.

[Blu]

Originally Posted by Fat Hyra

You forget that with Earthquake as an option you can run Fire Blast/Grass Knot/Earthquake/HP Rock. This gives it perfect coverage. Sure, you can wall this set by switching, but you can do that to most mixed attackers.

A Pokemon can be good without having no counters.... Sheesh just because it can use a move doesn't mean it gets it. Flareon and Flare Blitz, I rest my case.

Sure, only if you start pumping ATK EVs. Also you would need a neutral nature, and decrease HP, Spe, SpD, or even Def EVs to make it do effective which will make it less bulky.

Err, I guess...

[Hyra]

Originally Posted by Fat Blu

Sure, only if you start pumping ATK EVs. Also you would need a neutral nature, and decrease HP, Spe, SpD, or even Def EVs to make it do effective which will make it less bulky.

Err, I guess...

But if you can 2HKO all switch-ins (assuming you predict properly, obviously this won't happen most of the time) do you really need to be bulky? It would be very close to TTar in terms of how you play it then, except it doesn't have as much Attack or SAtk.

[flygon493]

You know, I'm kind of surprised I still face people who are like "What is that thats no pokemon u r a cheater!!!!!" and fuss about it. Seriously, it says it in the very beginning before you log on, the server is even called "Create-A-Pokemon". Seriously, this is the third one, and people still don't read. Anywho, I think Pyroak can be very deadly, but only if its played correctly. I particularly like the physical version myself. On a side note, all of our CAPs so far have been weak to flying. We may want to stay away from those types that are weak to flying next time.

[Notty]

Is anyone besides me noticing a distinct rise in random Pokemon carrying HP Flying?

Like everyone else has said, Togekiss, while certainly wanting to avoid switching in on STAB Fire attacks, isn't really hurt much by anything else and easily threatens with Air Slash.

Staraptor, likewise, brutalizes Pyroak with Brave Bird. Lots of 'duh' stuff, here, but it's just stuff I've noticed.

Pyroak, himself is a fairly decent switch-in to himself, too.

[DougJustDoug**]

Originally Posted by Fat flygon493

On a side note, all of our CAPs so far have been weak to flying. We may want to stay away from those types that are weak to flying next time.

It's not like Flying attacks were dominating the metagame before we started making pokes.With all the Stealth Rocks floating around, Flying types have really gotten screwed in DP. Perhaps the CAP pokes might make Flying types a little more desirable.

But, yeah, I think we need to lay off the Flying weakness on the next few projects.

[Mekkah**]

I considered using Specsmence with HP Flying. Doesn't really help him against Syclant but I suppose the 2HKO on Revenankh is cool, especially since it can't just Bulk Up it away (like Aerial Ace). Pyroak is fucked against Mence either way.

Anyway, Fighting, Bug and Grass are all that's weak to Flying, and with lots of people wanting a new Electric for next one, I doubt we'll have one soon again.

[eric the espeon]

I am having second thoughts about how strong this thing is, I can only think of 2 (3 if SpecsTran FB does >65%) good counters counters to Aldarons set, Tentacreul and NP Togekiss. CB Tyranitar would do quite a bit with SE, but would hate Leech seed or Toxic.
I stalled out a Kingdra UNDER THE RAIN (5 turn rain) I mean its recovery move was reduced to half, and facing a Pokemon with a double STAB 95 base power move.
Kingdra switched in on Leach Seed iirc and set up rain as I healed up to ~75% with Synthesis and proceeded to hit me with Surfs as I stalled out rain with Synthesis (only 25% in the rain) + Leech Seed.
Still don't think its broken just a strong tank.


Also stuff like EQ, DD, even SD would not be remotely broken IMO, this thing is NOT a sweeper, and even with those moves the tank set is much better.

[phalanx]

most of those listed pokes aren't OU....
and what about weezing?

[Helios]

Weezing really dislikes that STABed fire blast (2HKO when Weezing has 252/0 neutral and Pyroak has no EVs or stat boosters and neutral personality), considering he has 65/70 base stats for the special side, and rarely puts EVs into SpD. He also equals Pyroak's base speed, so you might not even get a chance to hit him. Weezing DOES badly counter physical sets though.

[TekkenStorm]

Pyroak rarely deos carry Fire Blast most of the time he carrys Lava plume or Flamthrower.

[Deck Knight]

Originally Posted by Fat eric the espeon

I am having second thoughts about how strong this thing is, I can only think of 2 (3 if SpecsTran FB does >65%) good counters counters to Aldarons set, Tentacreul and NP Togekiss. CB Tyranitar would do quite a bit with SE, but would hate Leech seed or Toxic.
I stalled out a Kingdra UNDER THE RAIN (5 turn rain) I mean its recovery move was reduced to half, and facing a Pokemon with a double STAB 95 base power move.
Kingdra switched in on Leach Seed iirc and set up rain as I healed up to ~75% with Synthesis and proceeded to hit me with Surfs as I stalled out rain with Synthesis (only 25% in the rain) + Leech Seed.
Still don't think its broken just a strong tank.


Also stuff like EQ, DD, even SD would not be remotely broken IMO, this thing is NOT a sweeper, and even with those moves the tank set is much better.

Yeah, We all know that if you give an impressive tank +2 boosts it wouldn't possibly use an offensive set instead of a tank set. What's that, Manafi? You say you got banned because you can tank everything AND boost yor special attack by 2?

Seriously, we voted and shot those things down for a reason. Not every CAP pokemon should be able to use a single +2 boost (BU in Rev's case) and start killing everything like Scyclant and Revenankh. They already have bloated BSTs and fully functional movepools.

Stolen from Raverist:

Pyroak @ Leftovers
80 HP/232 Att/196 Spe
Adamant
Rock Head
-Wood Hammer
-Flare Blitz
-Brick Break
-Dragon Dance

After a DD you've effectively got Choice Band and a +1 Speed Boost under your belt. You can outspeed Adamant Garchomp. Pyroak can both force switches and take hits.

Not to mention this set:

Pyroak @ Leftovers
80 HP/232 Att/196 Spe
Adamant
Rock Head
-Wood Hammer
-Brick Break
-Dragon Dance
-Synthesis

Less coverage than before, but it can still beat the ever-loving crap out of Hippowdon and Tyranitar if they decide to come in to nerf your 50% heal move.

Or even this:

Pyroak @ Leftovers
92 HP/236 Att/172 Spe
Adamant
Rock Head
-Substitute
-Leech Seed
-Dragon Dance
-Flare Blitz

101 HP Subseeder that can outspeed everything after 2 DD's with a side of boosted 100% acc STAB No-Drawback Flare Blitz for Grass types and anything not carrying Flash Fire, plox.

One last note: Max Speed Nature'd Pyroak can outspeed Timid Gengar after a single Dragon Dance and OHKO with Flare Blitz.

Originally Posted by Fat Blu

With 0 EVs in attack, and a - nature(not to mention 70 ATK base) EQ will barely do anything even if it's super effective. I'm still mad how we didn't give this Pokemon EQ when it doesn't make any sense for a Pokemon this large. Without testing, we already assumed "OH THIS IS GOING TO BE BROKEN BECAUSE ITS SUPER EFFECTIVE AGAINST ITS COUNTERS" FFS Garchomp can learn Fire Blast and heck its Sp.Atk has an 80 base.

You know 0 SA Jolly Heatran Earth Power doesn't KO much either for some reason, probably because only an idiot uses an attack off a stat they have nerfed EV and Nature wise.

But remember, "this is a tank." It couldn't possibly get any usefullness out of the most powerful offense boosting move in the game (Dragon Dance)

[eric the espeon]

Yeah, We all know that if you give an impressive tank +2 boosts it wouldn't possibly use an offensive set instead of a tank set. What's that, Manafi? You say you got banned because you can tank everything AND boost yor special attack by 2?

Well Manaphy's 100 SPA/100 Spe is a bit more threatening than Pyroak's 70/60 stats, along with better typing.
Seriously any sweeper set for thins will fail (the only one that may not is if it gets Charge Beam) with 3 attacks you lack ether a stat boost that makes you non-threatening or healing so that you are easy to wear down, and any 2 attack combo that this gets is easily walled by several things unless you give it 3-4 free turns to set up.

Really 70/60 is nothing to fear, whatever boosting moves we give it.

[Karrot]

Honestly, there's no reason to give this anything it already has. So it doesn't get Earthquake, so what? Pyroak is doing fine now even without the things you want to give it and there's no reason to argue over something that's already been decided.